October 30, 2025 • 41 mins
Five years ago, Port of Auckland was struggling with a shocking health and safety record.
Three people had died and many more had been injured at work.
Financially, the company was dealing with a costly but flawed automation project, and COVID added plenty of headaches for the global shipping industry too.
The company needed a complete turnaround, and Roger Gray was picked as the new chief executive to get on with the job.
With a background of 20 years in the Australian Army and roles at Goodman Fielder and Air New Zealand, Roger came with experience in leadership, but this was a big job with big problems.
Roger Gray joined Kerre Woodham in studio for the latest episode of Bosses Unfiltered.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The big wins and the big losses, the hurdles, the
pivots and the emotions, raw and honest New Zealand's great
business minds like you've never heard them before. This is
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry Woodham on iHeartRadio powered by Newstalk Sedby.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Five years ago, Port of Auckland was struggling with a
shocking health and safety record. Three people had died at
the port, many more had been injured at work. Financially,
the company was dealing with a costly but flawed automation
project and COVID added plenty of headaches for the global
shipping industry too. The company needed a complete turnaround and
(00:40):
Roger Gray was picked as the new chief executive to
get on with the job. With the background of twenty
years in the Australian Army en roles at Goodman, Fielder
and Air New Zealand, Roger came with experience in leadership.
But this was a big job with big problems. Roger,
welcome to you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I wouldn't have thought that being an Army officer would
be conducive to being a good manager in this day
and age, because in the Army it's jump and the
answer is how high.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Probably when I first entered management, management was a little
bit still about jump and how high. So I've had
to evolve and grow through my working career, and probably
the biggest change for me was coming to New Zealand
from Australia. Whilst Australians see New Zealand as the Seventh State,
things are very different here. Work's done very differently, much
(01:33):
less aggressively, much more on relationships and more collaborative. So
I've certainly had to evolve and change as a person.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So New Zealanders need more a softer approach or a
different approach.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I think the issue here in New Zealand is because
it's a pretty small market, so no one wants to
burn a bridge, no one wants to upset anybody, so
we are much more.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, we probably are a bit softer.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
But also New Zealand is there very strongly passive, aggressive,
and they are silent disagrees and will often sit in
a room and you'll think everything's fine, you'll leave and
they'll just give you the middle finger and move on.
And whereas in Australia, if someone disagrees with you, they
tell you to your face, they don't have a problem
(02:18):
with that, so I've certainly found that aspect quite different.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, how do you deal with the silent solders?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You bring them into the conversation. You actually say, look, Kerry,
what do you think? And then someone goes, I've got permission.
Then they say it. But if you sit there and
just expect the person to enter the conversation, I've noticed
that they don't do it.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
There's also cultural differences too, because some communities. Some communities
are very reverential to authority, and even if they disagree,
they won't say it because that person is in charge
or that person's the pastor, so they won't say anything.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
How do you get them to come around?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
That's a really good point because you know at the Port,
we've got sixty percent of our workforce are Pacific and
they can be very strong and respectful to authority. So
again it's about building personal relationships, inviting them to have
a chat and to the point where eventually they feel
they can speak to you. But often Kerry, they won't,
(03:18):
but their union will. So you build the relationship with
the union so they feel that they can use their
union delegate to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The Port of Auckland was just an absolute tragedy. Why
did you take on the job.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's a huge one.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
My wife asked me that as well. So we were
sitting very comfortably in christ Church. I was leading the
sorry the Port of Lyttleton and we had a bloody
house and three sheep and life it's pretty good. And
I got wrung and I was like, oh, I'm not
sure about this, But in the end it was an
incredible opportunity to come back and fix something that needed
(03:56):
to be fixed. It was a high profile turnaround. I
like doing turn around jobs. So and Caroline and I
really are Auckland's. So we came back.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Had you been sitting there in Littleton looking at what
was happening in Auckland, thinking oh, why are you doing
it that way? I could do it a different way.
Had you been thinking I.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Had, and you know, or credit to my predecessor on
a whole lot of things, you did really well, But
certainly I didn't. I just couldn't make hide nor hair
of how automation was going to work in that environment. So,
you know, I really came within a view that automation
wasn't the right approach. But also I came with a
(04:37):
view that combative relationships with your union, combative relationships with
your own other council, combative relationships with the media wasn't
the right way to go. So they are the sorts
of things that we then said about changing how do you.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Rebuild trust between management and the workers, because when you
have lost three people on the job and you've lost
other workers to injury, there wouldn't be much trust.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Left with there. No, there wasn't.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
And the worker said to me just pretty openly, they said, look, Roger,
we think management values productivity over our safety. And that's
pretty confronting. When someone says we don't feel safe walking
out there, you're pushing us too hard. So we had
to go back to first principles. We had to say
to them, you're free to be able to stop work
if you don't feel safe, and a couple of the
(05:26):
more forthright ones did and we commended them rather than
criticize them, and they started to say, wow, this is
so you're saying I can actually do this, And then
we actually sat down with their union and said we
need to repair our relationships. We need to go together,
because when management and workers break apart, whos who feels
(05:49):
the void for them, they go to the union and
that's what was happening here. So we built the relationship
with the union using high performance high engagement, which is
an interest based problem solving model, which a number of
us did at in New Zealand actually when the Prime
Minister was the CEO, so we were we were well
schooled in it. We'd seen success with it, so we
(06:10):
introduced that and then it's literally you just have to
keep week after week behaving consistently and eventually they go okay,
So you're not going this isn't a trap. It's not
a trick. You're genuine. So it really is just about
putting the effort in and talking.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Were there a couple of situations where workers walked off
where it was dangerous or did you give them the
benefit of the dubt justiceit an example that yes, they
could stop.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
It was more the latter. Look, let's not kid ourselves.
The port sector is a challenging place to work. You
saw you know, you're out there in the rain at
night lifting thirty kilo lashing bars. It's hard work near containers,
lifting up forty ton containers. So it is a dangerous
(07:00):
place to work and often safety isn't necessarily it's unsafe,
it's I just don't feel safe right now. Something's different.
It just doesn't feel right, and you've got to give
them the benefit of doubt and let them walk off
in that situation. We did that a couple of times.
Probably the biggest trust builder was the decision by the
(07:21):
board to cancel automation. The workers had felt that that
was a direct attack on them and they said, if
only you get rid of it, then we'll will the
portal get back to on its feet. It's just a
black hole on us. And so when the board did
decide to announce it, and I went down to the
(07:41):
breast into the mess room and said, team, it's done.
We're shutting it down. Now get out there and get
those cargo moving. And to their credit, they have done
that and we're now seeing volumes well in excessive pre
COVID times going through the port Manually.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I can give that automation was a good idea, like
it is supposed to be safer, so that so that
you replace dangerous jobs with machines, that's great, and it
would be more efficient and can work in any conditions
at the same pace. And there was enormous sunk cost.
So can ports be automated or are they not places
(08:22):
where automation can take place?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Now they can be automated. They're automated all around.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
The world, right, so why not here?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
We tried to do two first in the world. The
first thing we tried to do was no one has
automated a port while it's still running. They automate new
ports and then they move the cargo in, So we
were trying to literally fly along and change the engine midair.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So that's tough.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And then we chose and I'm not previated the reason
we chose two vendors, a software vendor and a hardware
vendor who'd never done it before. So we went with
first in the world on one thing, and then first
in the world using two untrained vendors that whole lot
of other things.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You get yourself what we got.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I'm blue a steve at all, but even I can
see the floors on that plan.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
It is a classic example of how not to engage
in cultural transformation, how not to run a project, And
sadly in the end we had to we had to kill.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It, not before a couple of people have been killed already.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But they hadn't been killed because of automaton.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's true. So when you and Caroline decided you'd take
on the job, had you set certain limits or targets
in your mind as to, Okay, if we haven't turned
this around by this time, I'll leave, or it might
be too big for me, if it's taking too much
out of my personal life, I'll leave.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Look, it took a lot out of the personal life,
there's no doubt about that, and Caroline was fantastic about it.
What I had in factored in was the need to
renovate a house to replicate the house we had in
vist Church, so that's a whole other contract with my wife.
But the renovations now finished, so we're very happy with that.
So that probably took more effort than turning the port around,
(10:09):
actually getting a renovation done in this city.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But no, I never felt that we couldn't do it.
You know, we put together a great executive, there's.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
A fantastic workforce at the port, and sometimes you just
know you can do it. And certainly I never felt
at any stage on the journey we've been on for
the last three and a half years that we couldn't
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So even when you got your bum in the seat
and you looked at everything in front of your in
the job, now you saw all the information you probably
weren't privy too until you were sitting there, you still thought, Yep,
I can do this.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Probably was worse than I expected when I arrived, so
no doubt. But what I'd say is, when you are
doing these things, you just go back to basics. You
focus on the core, You do your basic job, and
you just take it one step at a time. You
can't get a little fixed in a year. You can't
get a little fixed into You just keep nibbling away
as long as you keep focus on where you want
(11:06):
to be and what you want the place to be.
And we do three year planning at the Port, so
we imagine what the porter look like in three years
and we just keep focusing on delivering towards that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
And that's what we've done.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Do you have to have enormous self confidence to do
what you do?
Speaker 4 (11:22):
I do think if you get to be a CEO
or a senior executive, you do.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
I think you do have a level of confidence intensity,
some would say arrogance that I can do this and
because in the end, people are looking at you, they're
watching you, they're waiting for you to blink, and you can't.
So you've got to have that confidence. Yeah, I do
(11:50):
think you know, some would say you don't get to
this level unless there's a sort of morbidly weird sort
of personality as well.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So yeah, they must have done personality testing on you
at different times in your career. What are you?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I'm a very strong, extrovert, big out there, I love
to party, I've got I'm loud, I've got a yeh.
I'm a big almost very very strong e and as
a result, you get what you get sometimes with me.
But and I'm I'm also very direct. I don't I
(12:25):
don't mince my words. I get stuff I tell people
as it is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Some like that.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Some in New Zealand have found that confronting. I've had
to dial it back a bit. My bluntness when I
first arrived here back in two thousand and seven caused me.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
A whole heck of hurt.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
But anyway, I've been on that journey, oh just upsetting
people and what I thought was a reasonable conversation. People
used to walk out in tears and I go, well,
that didn't go very well.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Was that at work? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, good midfielder.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
When I first arrived, I came in all guns blazing.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And after about yep, after about I don't know.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I was there about four or five months. I went
on Christmas leave and I reflected and went, well, that's
not going down very well. So maybe I could better
reinvent myself. And I've been on a journey of reinvention
the whole time i've been here.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
But how do you do that? How do you become
less of you?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
You've got to listen to the feedback from people who
tell you that's not landing rog and you've got to
be prepared to go, okay, if that's not landing, what
will how do I evolve? How do I improve? Probably one
of the things that the military told us was don'taff
be clipped and crisp in way. So you'd say, I
(13:37):
don't understand that. Go to page two of your slide now,
I'd say that was a great presentation, thank you. I
really enjoyed it. I'm not quite clear on one of
the aspects of slide too. Could we go back now
in the military, you'd say you just wasted a hundred words,
But it's about how you leave people feeling. And in
a military environment, people are quite once you train in
(13:58):
that environment, quite happy to get blunt feedback, both because
you are in a profession that needs you to be
equipped and direct doesn't always land someone who's a marketer
or a salesperson or a people person.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
They have a different approach. So you've just got to
be aware of that.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
But that's so annoying, isn't it. I Mean, like my
one foray into management, I got one of our brilliant
waiters and I said, could you train up the other
waiters and waitresses because you were just brilliant to what
you do. He was hopeless, and I said, oh honey,
it's not working. You're a bit shit. But we'll keep
you on the same money that we put you out
because you are so good and they just don't like you.
He sued me for constructive dismissal and my company at
(14:36):
Bay ten grand and it's like he was a bit.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Shit yep, And look, you can still have the hard conversation.
So it's probably about how you do that constructor within
the New Zealand legal system, you can still have that
coaching conversation, or even the performance management conversation.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
It's just how you do it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
We'll hire people to do it for you.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Well, I mean, there are a lot of of HR
people who have gone through who have been coaching and
supporting me through my career carea and they've given me
advice on the New Zealand methodology. So I remember Michael Peters,
my HR director at Goodman Fielder. He said, Roger, you
just can't do that. This is New Zealand, it's not Sydney.
And so he took me on a journey of nudging
(15:20):
me to the person I am today.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
When you go back to Australia, do you revert to
the baggie?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I can I go back.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
My children live in Sydney, so I do go back regularly,
and yes I do, and catch up with old army
friends and other old works.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I do sort of flip back a bit little.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
One of the interesting traits I've had to change here
is I don't swear nearly as much in New Zealand.
New Zealand is fine swearing. I find in the workplace
they find it quite confronting, whereas.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's less so in Australia.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
So I do I don't notice a few if bombs
drop a bit more when I go back doors.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Roger does Carolyn prefer?
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think she well. She told me.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
There's a great quote she said to me. I was
coached by a coach, an executive coach out of Sydney
for five years while I was here in New Zealand,
Virginia Mansell. And there's a quote on her website which says,
I fell in love with the old Roger Gray, but
I love the new Roger Gray more.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
And it's true.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
If you do become more empathetic, and you do become
more collaborative, and you do actually become less confrontational, it
can spill into your personal life, and it certainly has.
So I think Caroline like loves the new Roger Gray
a little more.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
What it's really like to build a business in New Zealand.
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Speaker 2 (16:56):
When you were at the port, you made Nick Squercia
of payment to every employee, why and how did that land?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
So I've always been believed, you know, you've got you've
got collectivised workers who are on a union that gets
paid a set amount of money, and that's fine, that's great.
And then you've got managers and who are normally got
short term incentives, and we've got that.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And I'm a.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Real believer that if the place performs were an excessive
of expectation, then you should reward everybody. And so off
the back of that, we made a decision, or the
board made a decision to pay an excrusher payment to
all of the collectivised workforce as a little acknowledgment to
say thanks, you went above and beyond. Now that's not
(17:41):
just hitting budget, that's not just delivering. That's when we
beat budget significantly, as we did. And off the back
of that, the board wanted to acknowledge that. So, yeah,
it's pretty cool when you're standing in front of a
steved or who might be on sixty five thousand and
you say the boys and the boys and girls, I'll
put on thet boys. Sadly, you know, they call it
(18:03):
a grand in the hand, and that makes a material
difference to a family paid in September. I'm sure that
it's quickly wisked the way to prepare for Christmas or
something to celebrate with the family. So for me, it's
a really important acknowledgment when the workforce have enabled you
to overachieve, what is.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
The secret to success to the improved financial performance? Because
as you say, it wasn't just hitting your target, it
was exceeding it. So was it just heading the users
with higher fees? Because everyone seems to be able to
justify doing that these days.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
It's a bit of that. Yeah, I'm not going to lie.
We've taken significant price rises. Why have we done that?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
When I got to the port, the container terminal was
losing twenty five million dollars a year. That means that
the ratepayers of Auckland were subsidizing importers and exporters of
the tune of half a million dollars a week, and
that to me is unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Why were they sustaining that?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
A traditional approach from port companies that container terminals are
not profitable, they're seen as areas going back and forth.
There was a lot of competition between Auckland and Todo
over history and off the back of that we said
as an executive, no, that's not the role of council
(19:22):
or rate payers. So we've been stepping up price. Now
a lot of people go, well, that's just price. You've
done this whole turnaround. It's only one of the point.
You know, we've seen year on year growth through the
container terminal. We're seeing very strong bulk growth going in
bulk cargoes and they're coming because we're no longer gifting
(19:46):
volume to todong Are, We're no longer gifting volume to
Northport because of our inefficiencies. We're now a credible alternative
for importers and they're choosing to come to us. This year,
we're almost eight percent up in container volume year on
you in a depressed economy, so you know, we're feeling
pretty good about.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That and is that sustainable.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
I think the continued growth will settle down as the
balance as the volume sorry, as the market chairs re
reset themselves, and then we'll probably grow it two or
three percent along with GDP. We've given very clear guidance
on price rises out for another two or three years,
(20:29):
and we are going to continue to lift our price
And why are we doing that? So we can give
a sustainable return to the city, so we can start
to pay a fair return. You know, rate payers have
one point six billion dollars of assets sitting down there
at the Port, and you know we haven't traditionally paid
them a fair return. And it's the job of the
(20:52):
port executive the board to give that cash back to
the city to pay for the investment that they've made.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And that's what we're going.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So you've turned the port around. Does the big ee
need another challenge to keep interested?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Never say never in politics and in life, So no,
I never say never. Look, I'm loving the job I'm
in right now. There's no other big roles right now,
so we'll cross that bridge if it becomes scared.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
There's always politics. You've had a fascination with.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Politics, I have and do still. Maybe right now, I've
still got quite a big more witch to payoff from
the renovations, so politics probably doesn't pay me well enough
to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Do you think Christopher Luxen's finding it more difficult than
he imagined looking from the outsider and having worked with
them at in New Zealand and then seeing what happens
when a chief executive a manager goes into politics.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I don't think anybody transitions between industries and careers, and
let's be honest, it's a big transition from management and
aviation or FMCG, where Christopher was before, into politics. One
of the things I'd say about Christopher is he is
one of the most voracious learners that I know. He
(22:14):
is a perpetual learner who has a true X factor
about wanting to get better. And I think people will
see him continue to understand the whole craft of politics
and get better and better as he goes.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It look a.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Massive hurdle to be leader of the Opposition within first
term and then you know Prime Minister so early on
in his career.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
But where credits do.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
What is it about politics that fascinates you.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
I think it's a bit about serving the country. One
of the things I loved in my first twenty years
in the Australian Army was there was a real reason
for being. You know, you were there really, you were
there to protect the country and to if necessary, prosecute
you know, foreign will prosecute a war if you had to.
(23:04):
And I do miss that service and I think politics
gives you the opportunity to again go back and represent
your community to get things done for the betterment of
your country. And so yeah, that's what's always interested me
about it serving And.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
What were the other aspects of the army that you
really enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
I like the clarity of purpose. I liked the camaraderie.
You know, my best friends still are the people I
went through done truing with who I met when I
was seventeen, when I left home and joined up, and
so great friendships, great camara, very clear purpose of what
you were there for. And it's yeah, it was a
(23:46):
love of mine. As a child, I just wanted to
be a soldier, and I suppose I'm one of those
few people who actually did what they wanted to be
when they were a kid, and the Army provided me
a great career.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I did twenty years. What did I get out?
Speaker 4 (24:00):
A lot of people ask me why I got out
at thirty seven. I wondered if I could cut it
in the corporate world. I'd been privileged enough to go
to Cambodia to serve in the UN. I had a
wonderful career going up through staff College and being trained,
and I just asked, I had this nagging question.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I wonder if I cut it in the corporate world.
So I jumped.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Now, if I had known these team and was coming
and then Afghanistan and Iraq and then Afghanistan kerry, I
could well have spent another twenty years in the profession
because I loved it.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It was a great job.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
A lot of army officers do leave, but fine, they
cannot cut it. Yes, you will have had friends and
colleagues who would have found that that it's not the
world for them. They struggle to find their place.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yes, yes, a lot too, and a lot a lot
of and maybe look, I went and did an NBA.
I had the resources and the ability to be able
to do that. Helped demilitarize myself.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
But a lot do struggle.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
They miss the camaraderie, they miss the purpose when they
get out. And so I think it behooves people like
me and other veterans who have transitioned out to reach
out with a helping hand, and I do that a
lot now, give advice, support, take people on a journey
if they've got some issues, and where I can employ
(25:26):
ex veterans because military people bring an amazing set of
skills to the workplace that I think a lot of
people underestimate.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
What do you think is common to a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
They deliver what they commit to, they work hard, they're honest,
they're nearly always really well trained and actually well educated.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
The military.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Does invest in you in leadership training, in skills, warehousing
or truck driving, or apprenticeships or whatever, so they bring
a lot and they also Army people are prepared to
make decisions. One of the things that I find frustrating
in businesses. Lots of people talk about problems, but you
(26:10):
often struggle to find someone who actually can get stuff done,
makes a call and gets on with it. Military people
do have a habit of doing that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
The big lessons from New Zealand's youngest and oldest entrepreneurs
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodem on iHeartRadio powered by News
talksb Wins, Losses and the real stories behind our great Companies.
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem on iHeartRadio powered by News
(26:41):
Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
At what point do you need to have the courage
to say this was the wrong decision? I'm thinking back.
You know you say you people need to make a call,
and I couldn't agree. More people need to say right,
this is what we've talked about it, this is what
we're going to do. At what point, when I come
back to the automation should you go. I know we've
sunk millions into this. I know I've pinned my professional
(27:04):
reputation on this, but it is not working. When do
you know? Have you ever had to go through something
similar where you've committed.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, a couple of different projects, and let's talk about
automation first. The board were very clear with me during
my recruitment process that I was to finish automation. Oh really,
So whilst I asked the question, are you prepared to
let me cancel it? The answer, the resounding answer was no,
you are to implement it and come in And to
(27:33):
be honest, I wanted the job.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
It's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So I said okay, And I arrived and I said, okay,
in good faith, I'll try and make this work.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
I did a series of deep dives.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
And probably the important X factor as I was doing
those is because jan Dawson was new at the port.
She said, do you mind if I sit in with
you in these deep dives? So Jane and I would
sit there and listen and ask questions and go through
them and It wasn't a case of the chair interfering.
She just wanted to learn and understand. And I remember
(28:05):
we turned to each other after about the fourth deep dive.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And went, this is never going to work. And we
both think, yeah, it's not going to work.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
And it wasn't. It wasn't the actual hardware. The straddles
work really well. They're running around the port. Now we've
converted them to manual their service now for the next
fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
They're a good kid.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
The software wasn't stable and the software didn't work, and
that's when you've got to ask yourself, am I just
continuing to throw good money after bad And at that
stage we were spending about eight hundred thousand to two
million dollars a month on the on the software trying
to k and it wasn't working. It was two years late,
(28:45):
it was it was running at a third of the
speed that it was supposed to according to the business case.
And when I asked the vendors when will it be right,
they said, we don't know, just trust us turn it
on and I said no. So anyway, Jane and I
then went on a journey of discussing and explaining to
the world. Why And it was a pretty hard call,
(29:05):
you know, sixty five million dollar right off. It was
an interesting conversation with meyor Gough near the end of
his term when I let him know that. And there's
no way we could repurpose it. We couldn't resell it.
It was sixty five million of ratepayers money gone. But
it was better than continuing on. And that's where you
get to a sunk You've got to acknowledge sunk costs,
bias sometimes in decision making and go it's not working.
(29:28):
It was the same when I was at Goodminfielder in Australia.
Did this whole just in time resupply of raw materials
to bakeries grade in theory was perfect, theory should have worked.
Complete cluster didn't work. Couldn't get the stuff to the bakeries.
So in the end you went, okay, stop, go back
to what we had and walk away from a very
(29:50):
big project and just say didn't pass the sniff test.
Maybe we should have made that call at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, because it would be hard when you're panning your
and when you've got staff who are panning their professional
reputations on it, to say no it's an abject failure.
You know, we've got to stop.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, but it's only money. And I know that sounds
a bit flippy.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well it's not yours.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
No, no, it's not mine. But even if it had
been mine, I still would have I probably would have
killed it a bit earlier. If I was bleeding eight
hundred grand a week a month, I should say. But
what I'd say is sometimes you've got to just make
the call and go enough is enough and say, Okay,
that didn't work, then fix it. You know, And I
always think managers worry too much. But what about my reputation?
(30:35):
What about this? And you go, mate, just call it.
It's okay to make a mistake. We all make them
in life.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Just fix it.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
And that's where I think people get. They chase perfection.
They chase because they're scared of acknowledging. I made a mistake.
And we had a project earlier this year. We had
to stop. It got to it was a digital project
and in the end we had to write off about
a million dollars. And you know, I think the managers
(31:02):
who were responsible for it were a bit worried I
was going to sack them.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And there's that old line.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
I spent all this money training you mate, I'm going
to I'm not going to lose that experience, and I
think we should all take that approach.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I remember mediating a discussion with the Health and Disability
Commissioner and senior doctors and they were terrified of being wrong.
For them, it's life and death things, yes, you know,
but they there's a real danger and being in an
organization or believing that you cannot ever be wrong or
(31:36):
make a mistake, because inevitably you'll end up making more
if you don't have the freedom to make mistakes.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
And I think so many businesses need to create a
culture where you're allowed to make mistakes, You're allowed to
try something, and that's where you get true innovation, that's.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Where you get stuff.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Otherwise, everybody sits back, stays conservative, and nothing I think changes,
nothing grows. So I'm a big believer in letting people
give people a safe sand pit whatever you want to
call it, to operate within, as long as they don't
keep making the same mistake or keep making mistakes. But
I do believe you've got to let people have a crack.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Well, I suppose with social media and the court of
public opinion and everybody having a recon these days, it
seems that the fallout is so huge if people do
make a mistake that it can be scary.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Yeah, and I think that's valid, and so you know,
as leaders of the business, we've got to be there
to protect our people and make sure they don't get
blamed for it.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
But yeah, it is tough.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Do you think it was the right call for your
predecessor to be prosecuted personally?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Ah, Look, that was a decision made by the regulator.
I don't have a view on that. What I'd say
is the port made it. The Port company made a
decision off the back of that fatality to plead guilty,
and I believe that was the right decision for the
port company to make. I can't comment on why the
(33:08):
regulator chose to do what they did and who they
chose to seek prosecution against. I think it's important now
we wait for the appeal and see what the outcome
of that is.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah. I mean, there's that idea that's taken hold more
recently that you can't hide behind a company that directors
like the main Zeal directors were held accountable personally. Is
that the right way to go in general and business.
For personal accountability, yep.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I believe so, and you know I live with that
every day. You know, I'm personally accountable for lots of
things within the port and I'm okay with that. That
comes with the job. What I'd say from my perspective
is if you if you have that accountability, then do
your job to make sure you do the stuff that
you've got to do to give yourself comfort when you
(33:59):
lie awake at night. Did I do everything I possibly could?
Be it operationally, be it from a safety perspective, but
it how people are treated right the way through to
are we trading while we're solving? You know, there's a
whole gamut of stuff that as a senior leader you're
responsible for and you're just going to make sure you
do your job.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And to do your job well, you have to have
a good life outside of work. Yes, So how do
you do that?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah? It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
As I said earlier, I'm the be like I do
like to party with my friends. So you know, I
socialize a lot with friends. I've got a fantastic group
of friends here and back in Australia.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I this is a.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Sort of thing I don't know. Lots of people listen
to music or meditate. Carrier, I watch really bad television and.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Like six in the study, I was.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Watching just like that two nights ago. I lost.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
And then there's an how called CUBI which has all
these shlocks, sixties and fifties horror movies and things on it.
I watched that religiously normally on a Saturday morning. I
had a cup of coffee when I first wake up,
and I watch a really bad Jialio movie or something
like that. My wife just wanders passed. Sin says right.
And then obviously I spent time with Caroline the kids.
(35:19):
We are on a blockout in coastal, so there's quite
a lot of lawn knowing. So I do listen to
talking books while I'm on the ride on as well
sci fi or no No No politics as you'd expect business,
those sort of things.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, and like podcasts like this, like this, like exactly
like this. In terms of the healthy mind and the
healthy body, do you think it's important? Does the keeping
fit thing, because I'm just making an observation visual observation,
you're obviously fit. Does that come from the army or
from trying to clear your head from the day's work.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I think it's I think it does come from the army,
so I tend to excit. I was in the morning,
so I was in the gym this morning. And what
that does is it helps me prepare for the day.
And you know, we've just, as I said, done a renovation,
so we put on a gym so I can literally
wake up and walk through a door into the gym.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So that's an indulgence that I'm lucky enough to have.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
But I do believe in walking and doing some exercise
to just a focus and to clear the head, because
there's a lot of noise in a job and a
lot of noise in life. So sometimes it's just nice
to have that time to myself and watch one of
those Tubi movies while I'm on the treadmill.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
I can't believe you're watching six In the study, I
picked that as the worst no example.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I'd love to meet carry Breadshaw one day.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Can you learn to be a good boss or do
you happen to be one? It sounds like you can
learn to be a better boss.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah. Look, I think I think you can learn to
be a good boss. I do.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
I think you We're all built with a preparedness to lead.
Some of us like doing it, some of us don't.
Some of us don't want to be in management, and
that's fine. I think, what if you want to be
a really good boss, then I think you've got to
be open to feedback. You've got to be prepared to
keep improving. You've got to be that learner that I
(37:16):
talked about Christopher luxen Is. I try and be the same.
I'm trying to always get better. And I think if
you come into it with humbleness and preparedness to learn
and develop yourself, you can go a long way in
becoming a highly effective executive.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
As a management degree the best way to become a.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Boss, well, my first degree was an arts degree in
economics and history and politics. Actually, I have done a
number of management courses and MBA and things, and I
think they all go to helping codify the skills you
get in the workplace, and they do teach you some
(37:55):
tools and some tricks to help you. So I think
they're in adjunct too. I don't think they are the
way I think they contribute to you. If you're prepared
to be a learner.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Wi business decision you made in your career.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Probably that just in time Goodman Fielder example, back in Australia,
that was yeah, that wasn't good.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
What is something you'll never regret.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
I'll never regret coming here to Porteval, I'll never regret
coming to live in New Zealand. I'll never regret joining
the army, and I'll never regret having a crack at
politics because at least I had to go.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Did join me? Missed out by one percent year.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
One point eight percent, not that I'm counting, and in
not that you know that eighteen hundred votes couldn't have
just nine hundred had changed, I would have been. But
if that had happened, that was in two thousand and four,
I would never have come to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
So would you have been Prime Minister.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Scott Well? I knew Scott Morrison at the time.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
He was State director when I was a candidate, so
he got to be Prime minister.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
So let's wait and see.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Anyway, that's the past. It's not something would I have
liked to have been? Yes, I would have liked to
have been. Would yeah, I make no bones about it.
If you're going to be in government, if you're going
to be in politics, and you want to be in
government and you want to be able to affect change.
It's great to sit in opposition and oppose, but the
(39:18):
thing that's important for me is about making a real difference.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Will you ever given a piece of advice that stays
with you today?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
My boss Gordon Hardy, who's now running a US listed company,
he said to me, Roger, make a decision. And I said, okay,
what means when you get seventy percent of if you
get seventy percent of your decisions right, just too many
people want too much information. So Gordon said, after a while,
you go, right, I'm going to have a crack, and
he goes, you go, yep, make the call. And if
(39:51):
you get seventy percent of your decisions right, and you
fix seventy percent of your mistakes in a timely manner,
you'll get ninety one percent of your decisions right in
the time the manner. And I've never forgotten that because
what that did is it said to me, make a call.
I think too many people wait to want too much information,
and that's worse than not making a decision, even if
(40:12):
it's the wrong decision. So that was one that was
probably the great bit of business advice Gordon gave me.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Do you ever listen to your gut or as it
always hid?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Ah, it's both.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I do.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I'm quite numerous, so I do. I will, I will
look at the numbers.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
But sometimes, like I said earlier, you just know this
doesn't past the sniff test. There's just something not right.
That's when you've got to trust your gut because the
numbers might all be telling you. But if it doesn't,
it doesn't past the pub test. Don't do it. And
so I actually trust both. And if you ask me
what would I take preference over, I'd probably take it
(40:52):
over my gut.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
You can't just you can't nullify your spidy sensors. They're
there for a reason. They are great piece of advice.
I think that's one to remember for all of us.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Roger Gray of Port of Auckland still cannot get over
the fact that Sets in the City is his favorite
TV show, Isn't it just as well? We're all different.
If you want to hear more stories about what it's
really like to be a boss, make sure you check
out Bosses Unfiltered on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Catch you next time,
The big wins and the big losses, the hurdles, the
pivots and the emotions, raw and honest New Zealand's great
business minds like you've never heard them before. This is
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry Woodham on iHeartRadio powered by Newstalk Sedby.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Five years ago, Port of Auckland was struggling with a
shocking health and safety record. Three people had died at
the port, many more had been injured at work. Financially,
the company was dealing with a costly but flawed automation
project and COVID added plenty of headaches for the global
shipping industry too. The company needed a complete turnaround and
(00:40):
Roger Gray was picked as the new chief executive to
get on with the job. With the background of twenty
years in the Australian Army en roles at Goodman, Fielder
and Air New Zealand, Roger came with experience in leadership.
But this was a big job with big problems. Roger,
welcome to you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I wouldn't have thought that being an Army officer would
be conducive to being a good manager in this day
and age, because in the Army it's jump and the
answer is how high.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Probably when I first entered management, management was a little
bit still about jump and how high. So I've had
to evolve and grow through my working career, and probably
the biggest change for me was coming to New Zealand
from Australia. Whilst Australians see New Zealand as the Seventh State,
things are very different here. Work's done very differently, much
(01:33):
less aggressively, much more on relationships and more collaborative. So
I've certainly had to evolve and change as a person.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So New Zealanders need more a softer approach or a
different approach.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I think the issue here in New Zealand is because
it's a pretty small market, so no one wants to
burn a bridge, no one wants to upset anybody, so
we are much more.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, we probably are a bit softer.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
But also New Zealand is there very strongly passive, aggressive,
and they are silent disagrees and will often sit in
a room and you'll think everything's fine, you'll leave and
they'll just give you the middle finger and move on.
And whereas in Australia, if someone disagrees with you, they
tell you to your face, they don't have a problem
(02:18):
with that, so I've certainly found that aspect quite different.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, how do you deal with the silent solders?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You bring them into the conversation. You actually say, look, Kerry,
what do you think? And then someone goes, I've got permission.
Then they say it. But if you sit there and
just expect the person to enter the conversation, I've noticed
that they don't do it.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
There's also cultural differences too, because some communities. Some communities
are very reverential to authority, and even if they disagree,
they won't say it because that person is in charge
or that person's the pastor, so they won't say anything.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
How do you get them to come around?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
That's a really good point because you know at the Port,
we've got sixty percent of our workforce are Pacific and
they can be very strong and respectful to authority. So
again it's about building personal relationships, inviting them to have
a chat and to the point where eventually they feel
they can speak to you. But often Kerry, they won't,
(03:18):
but their union will. So you build the relationship with
the union so they feel that they can use their
union delegate to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The Port of Auckland was just an absolute tragedy. Why
did you take on the job.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's a huge one.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
My wife asked me that as well. So we were
sitting very comfortably in christ Church. I was leading the
sorry the Port of Lyttleton and we had a bloody
house and three sheep and life it's pretty good. And
I got wrung and I was like, oh, I'm not
sure about this, But in the end it was an
incredible opportunity to come back and fix something that needed
(03:56):
to be fixed. It was a high profile turnaround. I
like doing turn around jobs. So and Caroline and I
really are Auckland's. So we came back.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Had you been sitting there in Littleton looking at what
was happening in Auckland, thinking oh, why are you doing
it that way? I could do it a different way.
Had you been thinking I.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Had, and you know, or credit to my predecessor on
a whole lot of things, you did really well, But
certainly I didn't. I just couldn't make hide nor hair
of how automation was going to work in that environment. So,
you know, I really came within a view that automation
wasn't the right approach. But also I came with a
(04:37):
view that combative relationships with your union, combative relationships with
your own other council, combative relationships with the media wasn't
the right way to go. So they are the sorts
of things that we then said about changing how do you.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Rebuild trust between management and the workers, because when you
have lost three people on the job and you've lost
other workers to injury, there wouldn't be much trust.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Left with there. No, there wasn't.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
And the worker said to me just pretty openly, they said, look, Roger,
we think management values productivity over our safety. And that's
pretty confronting. When someone says we don't feel safe walking
out there, you're pushing us too hard. So we had
to go back to first principles. We had to say
to them, you're free to be able to stop work
if you don't feel safe, and a couple of the
(05:26):
more forthright ones did and we commended them rather than
criticize them, and they started to say, wow, this is
so you're saying I can actually do this, And then
we actually sat down with their union and said we
need to repair our relationships. We need to go together,
because when management and workers break apart, whos who feels
(05:49):
the void for them, they go to the union and
that's what was happening here. So we built the relationship
with the union using high performance high engagement, which is
an interest based problem solving model, which a number of
us did at in New Zealand actually when the Prime
Minister was the CEO, so we were we were well
schooled in it. We'd seen success with it, so we
(06:10):
introduced that and then it's literally you just have to
keep week after week behaving consistently and eventually they go okay,
So you're not going this isn't a trap. It's not
a trick. You're genuine. So it really is just about
putting the effort in and talking.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Were there a couple of situations where workers walked off
where it was dangerous or did you give them the
benefit of the dubt justiceit an example that yes, they
could stop.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
It was more the latter. Look, let's not kid ourselves.
The port sector is a challenging place to work. You
saw you know, you're out there in the rain at
night lifting thirty kilo lashing bars. It's hard work near containers,
lifting up forty ton containers. So it is a dangerous
(07:00):
place to work and often safety isn't necessarily it's unsafe,
it's I just don't feel safe right now. Something's different.
It just doesn't feel right, and you've got to give
them the benefit of doubt and let them walk off
in that situation. We did that a couple of times.
Probably the biggest trust builder was the decision by the
(07:21):
board to cancel automation. The workers had felt that that
was a direct attack on them and they said, if
only you get rid of it, then we'll will the
portal get back to on its feet. It's just a
black hole on us. And so when the board did
decide to announce it, and I went down to the
(07:41):
breast into the mess room and said, team, it's done.
We're shutting it down. Now get out there and get
those cargo moving. And to their credit, they have done
that and we're now seeing volumes well in excessive pre
COVID times going through the port Manually.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I can give that automation was a good idea, like
it is supposed to be safer, so that so that
you replace dangerous jobs with machines, that's great, and it
would be more efficient and can work in any conditions
at the same pace. And there was enormous sunk cost.
So can ports be automated or are they not places
(08:22):
where automation can take place?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Now they can be automated. They're automated all around.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
The world, right, so why not here?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
We tried to do two first in the world. The
first thing we tried to do was no one has
automated a port while it's still running. They automate new
ports and then they move the cargo in, So we
were trying to literally fly along and change the engine midair.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So that's tough.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And then we chose and I'm not previated the reason
we chose two vendors, a software vendor and a hardware
vendor who'd never done it before. So we went with
first in the world on one thing, and then first
in the world using two untrained vendors that whole lot
of other things.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You get yourself what we got.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I'm blue a steve at all, but even I can
see the floors on that plan.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
It is a classic example of how not to engage
in cultural transformation, how not to run a project, And
sadly in the end we had to we had to kill.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It, not before a couple of people have been killed already.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But they hadn't been killed because of automaton.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's true. So when you and Caroline decided you'd take
on the job, had you set certain limits or targets
in your mind as to, Okay, if we haven't turned
this around by this time, I'll leave, or it might
be too big for me, if it's taking too much
out of my personal life, I'll leave.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Look, it took a lot out of the personal life,
there's no doubt about that, and Caroline was fantastic about it.
What I had in factored in was the need to
renovate a house to replicate the house we had in
vist Church, so that's a whole other contract with my wife.
But the renovations now finished, so we're very happy with that.
So that probably took more effort than turning the port around,
(10:09):
actually getting a renovation done in this city.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But no, I never felt that we couldn't do it.
You know, we put together a great executive, there's.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
A fantastic workforce at the port, and sometimes you just
know you can do it. And certainly I never felt
at any stage on the journey we've been on for
the last three and a half years that we couldn't
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So even when you got your bum in the seat
and you looked at everything in front of your in
the job, now you saw all the information you probably
weren't privy too until you were sitting there, you still thought, Yep,
I can do this.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Probably was worse than I expected when I arrived, so
no doubt. But what I'd say is, when you are
doing these things, you just go back to basics. You
focus on the core, You do your basic job, and
you just take it one step at a time. You
can't get a little fixed in a year. You can't
get a little fixed into You just keep nibbling away
as long as you keep focus on where you want
(11:06):
to be and what you want the place to be.
And we do three year planning at the Port, so
we imagine what the porter look like in three years
and we just keep focusing on delivering towards that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
And that's what we've done.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Do you have to have enormous self confidence to do
what you do?
Speaker 4 (11:22):
I do think if you get to be a CEO
or a senior executive, you do.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
I think you do have a level of confidence intensity,
some would say arrogance that I can do this and
because in the end, people are looking at you, they're
watching you, they're waiting for you to blink, and you can't.
So you've got to have that confidence. Yeah, I do
(11:50):
think you know, some would say you don't get to
this level unless there's a sort of morbidly weird sort
of personality as well.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So yeah, they must have done personality testing on you
at different times in your career. What are you?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I'm a very strong, extrovert, big out there, I love
to party, I've got I'm loud, I've got a yeh.
I'm a big almost very very strong e and as
a result, you get what you get sometimes with me.
But and I'm I'm also very direct. I don't I
(12:25):
don't mince my words. I get stuff I tell people
as it is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Some like that.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Some in New Zealand have found that confronting. I've had
to dial it back a bit. My bluntness when I
first arrived here back in two thousand and seven caused me.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
A whole heck of hurt.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
But anyway, I've been on that journey, oh just upsetting
people and what I thought was a reasonable conversation. People
used to walk out in tears and I go, well,
that didn't go very well.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Was that at work? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, good midfielder.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
When I first arrived, I came in all guns blazing.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And after about yep, after about I don't know.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I was there about four or five months. I went
on Christmas leave and I reflected and went, well, that's
not going down very well. So maybe I could better
reinvent myself. And I've been on a journey of reinvention
the whole time i've been here.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
But how do you do that? How do you become
less of you?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
You've got to listen to the feedback from people who
tell you that's not landing rog and you've got to
be prepared to go, okay, if that's not landing, what
will how do I evolve? How do I improve? Probably one
of the things that the military told us was don'taff
be clipped and crisp in way. So you'd say, I
(13:37):
don't understand that. Go to page two of your slide now,
I'd say that was a great presentation, thank you. I
really enjoyed it. I'm not quite clear on one of
the aspects of slide too. Could we go back now
in the military, you'd say you just wasted a hundred words,
But it's about how you leave people feeling. And in
a military environment, people are quite once you train in
(13:58):
that environment, quite happy to get blunt feedback, both because
you are in a profession that needs you to be
equipped and direct doesn't always land someone who's a marketer
or a salesperson or a people person.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
They have a different approach. So you've just got to
be aware of that.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
But that's so annoying, isn't it. I Mean, like my
one foray into management, I got one of our brilliant
waiters and I said, could you train up the other
waiters and waitresses because you were just brilliant to what
you do. He was hopeless, and I said, oh honey,
it's not working. You're a bit shit. But we'll keep
you on the same money that we put you out
because you are so good and they just don't like you.
He sued me for constructive dismissal and my company at
(14:36):
Bay ten grand and it's like he was a bit.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Shit yep, And look, you can still have the hard conversation.
So it's probably about how you do that constructor within
the New Zealand legal system, you can still have that
coaching conversation, or even the performance management conversation.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
It's just how you do it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
We'll hire people to do it for you.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Well, I mean, there are a lot of of HR
people who have gone through who have been coaching and
supporting me through my career carea and they've given me
advice on the New Zealand methodology. So I remember Michael Peters,
my HR director at Goodman Fielder. He said, Roger, you
just can't do that. This is New Zealand, it's not Sydney.
And so he took me on a journey of nudging
(15:20):
me to the person I am today.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
When you go back to Australia, do you revert to
the baggie?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I can I go back.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
My children live in Sydney, so I do go back regularly,
and yes I do, and catch up with old army
friends and other old works.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I do sort of flip back a bit little.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
One of the interesting traits I've had to change here
is I don't swear nearly as much in New Zealand.
New Zealand is fine swearing. I find in the workplace
they find it quite confronting, whereas.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's less so in Australia.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
So I do I don't notice a few if bombs
drop a bit more when I go back doors.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Roger does Carolyn prefer?
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think she well. She told me.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
There's a great quote she said to me. I was
coached by a coach, an executive coach out of Sydney
for five years while I was here in New Zealand,
Virginia Mansell. And there's a quote on her website which says,
I fell in love with the old Roger Gray, but
I love the new Roger Gray more.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
And it's true.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
If you do become more empathetic, and you do become
more collaborative, and you do actually become less confrontational, it
can spill into your personal life, and it certainly has.
So I think Caroline like loves the new Roger Gray
a little more.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
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Speaker 2 (16:56):
When you were at the port, you made Nick Squercia
of payment to every employee, why and how did that land?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
So I've always been believed, you know, you've got you've
got collectivised workers who are on a union that gets
paid a set amount of money, and that's fine, that's great.
And then you've got managers and who are normally got
short term incentives, and we've got that.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And I'm a.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Real believer that if the place performs were an excessive
of expectation, then you should reward everybody. And so off
the back of that, we made a decision, or the
board made a decision to pay an excrusher payment to
all of the collectivised workforce as a little acknowledgment to
say thanks, you went above and beyond. Now that's not
(17:41):
just hitting budget, that's not just delivering. That's when we
beat budget significantly, as we did. And off the back
of that, the board wanted to acknowledge that. So, yeah,
it's pretty cool when you're standing in front of a
steved or who might be on sixty five thousand and
you say the boys and the boys and girls, I'll
put on thet boys. Sadly, you know, they call it
(18:03):
a grand in the hand, and that makes a material
difference to a family paid in September. I'm sure that
it's quickly wisked the way to prepare for Christmas or
something to celebrate with the family. So for me, it's
a really important acknowledgment when the workforce have enabled you
to overachieve, what is.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
The secret to success to the improved financial performance? Because
as you say, it wasn't just hitting your target, it
was exceeding it. So was it just heading the users
with higher fees? Because everyone seems to be able to
justify doing that these days.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
It's a bit of that. Yeah, I'm not going to lie.
We've taken significant price rises. Why have we done that?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
When I got to the port, the container terminal was
losing twenty five million dollars a year. That means that
the ratepayers of Auckland were subsidizing importers and exporters of
the tune of half a million dollars a week, and
that to me is unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Why were they sustaining that?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
A traditional approach from port companies that container terminals are
not profitable, they're seen as areas going back and forth.
There was a lot of competition between Auckland and Todo
over history and off the back of that we said
as an executive, no, that's not the role of council
(19:22):
or rate payers. So we've been stepping up price. Now
a lot of people go, well, that's just price. You've
done this whole turnaround. It's only one of the point.
You know, we've seen year on year growth through the
container terminal. We're seeing very strong bulk growth going in
bulk cargoes and they're coming because we're no longer gifting
(19:46):
volume to todong Are, We're no longer gifting volume to
Northport because of our inefficiencies. We're now a credible alternative
for importers and they're choosing to come to us. This year,
we're almost eight percent up in container volume year on
you in a depressed economy, so you know, we're feeling
pretty good about.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That and is that sustainable.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
I think the continued growth will settle down as the
balance as the volume sorry, as the market chairs re
reset themselves, and then we'll probably grow it two or
three percent along with GDP. We've given very clear guidance
on price rises out for another two or three years,
(20:29):
and we are going to continue to lift our price
And why are we doing that? So we can give
a sustainable return to the city, so we can start
to pay a fair return. You know, rate payers have
one point six billion dollars of assets sitting down there
at the Port, and you know we haven't traditionally paid
them a fair return. And it's the job of the
(20:52):
port executive the board to give that cash back to
the city to pay for the investment that they've made.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And that's what we're going.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So you've turned the port around. Does the big ee
need another challenge to keep interested?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Never say never in politics and in life, So no,
I never say never. Look, I'm loving the job I'm
in right now. There's no other big roles right now,
so we'll cross that bridge if it becomes scared.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
There's always politics. You've had a fascination with.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Politics, I have and do still. Maybe right now, I've
still got quite a big more witch to payoff from
the renovations, so politics probably doesn't pay me well enough
to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Do you think Christopher Luxen's finding it more difficult than
he imagined looking from the outsider and having worked with
them at in New Zealand and then seeing what happens
when a chief executive a manager goes into politics.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I don't think anybody transitions between industries and careers, and
let's be honest, it's a big transition from management and
aviation or FMCG, where Christopher was before, into politics. One
of the things I'd say about Christopher is he is
one of the most voracious learners that I know. He
(22:14):
is a perpetual learner who has a true X factor
about wanting to get better. And I think people will
see him continue to understand the whole craft of politics
and get better and better as he goes.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It look a.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Massive hurdle to be leader of the Opposition within first
term and then you know Prime Minister so early on
in his career.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
But where credits do.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
What is it about politics that fascinates you.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
I think it's a bit about serving the country. One
of the things I loved in my first twenty years
in the Australian Army was there was a real reason
for being. You know, you were there really, you were
there to protect the country and to if necessary, prosecute
you know, foreign will prosecute a war if you had to.
(23:04):
And I do miss that service and I think politics
gives you the opportunity to again go back and represent
your community to get things done for the betterment of
your country. And so yeah, that's what's always interested me
about it serving And.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
What were the other aspects of the army that you
really enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
I like the clarity of purpose. I liked the camaraderie.
You know, my best friends still are the people I
went through done truing with who I met when I
was seventeen, when I left home and joined up, and
so great friendships, great camara, very clear purpose of what
you were there for. And it's yeah, it was a
(23:46):
love of mine. As a child, I just wanted to
be a soldier, and I suppose I'm one of those
few people who actually did what they wanted to be
when they were a kid, and the Army provided me
a great career.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I did twenty years. What did I get out?
Speaker 4 (24:00):
A lot of people ask me why I got out
at thirty seven. I wondered if I could cut it
in the corporate world. I'd been privileged enough to go
to Cambodia to serve in the UN. I had a
wonderful career going up through staff College and being trained,
and I just asked, I had this nagging question.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I wonder if I cut it in the corporate world.
So I jumped.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Now, if I had known these team and was coming
and then Afghanistan and Iraq and then Afghanistan kerry, I
could well have spent another twenty years in the profession
because I loved it.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It was a great job.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
A lot of army officers do leave, but fine, they
cannot cut it. Yes, you will have had friends and
colleagues who would have found that that it's not the
world for them. They struggle to find their place.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yes, yes, a lot too, and a lot a lot
of and maybe look, I went and did an NBA.
I had the resources and the ability to be able
to do that. Helped demilitarize myself.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
But a lot do struggle.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
They miss the camaraderie, they miss the purpose when they
get out. And so I think it behooves people like
me and other veterans who have transitioned out to reach
out with a helping hand, and I do that a
lot now, give advice, support, take people on a journey
if they've got some issues, and where I can employ
(25:26):
ex veterans because military people bring an amazing set of
skills to the workplace that I think a lot of
people underestimate.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
What do you think is common to a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
They deliver what they commit to, they work hard, they're honest,
they're nearly always really well trained and actually well educated.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
The military.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Does invest in you in leadership training, in skills, warehousing
or truck driving, or apprenticeships or whatever, so they bring
a lot and they also Army people are prepared to
make decisions. One of the things that I find frustrating
in businesses. Lots of people talk about problems, but you
(26:10):
often struggle to find someone who actually can get stuff done,
makes a call and gets on with it. Military people
do have a habit of doing that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
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Speaker 2 (26:42):
At what point do you need to have the courage
to say this was the wrong decision? I'm thinking back.
You know you say you people need to make a call,
and I couldn't agree. More people need to say right,
this is what we've talked about it, this is what
we're going to do. At what point, when I come
back to the automation should you go. I know we've
sunk millions into this. I know I've pinned my professional
(27:04):
reputation on this, but it is not working. When do
you know? Have you ever had to go through something
similar where you've committed.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, a couple of different projects, and let's talk about
automation first. The board were very clear with me during
my recruitment process that I was to finish automation. Oh really,
So whilst I asked the question, are you prepared to
let me cancel it? The answer, the resounding answer was no,
you are to implement it and come in And to
(27:33):
be honest, I wanted the job.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
It's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So I said okay, And I arrived and I said, okay,
in good faith, I'll try and make this work.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
I did a series of deep dives.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
And probably the important X factor as I was doing
those is because jan Dawson was new at the port.
She said, do you mind if I sit in with
you in these deep dives? So Jane and I would
sit there and listen and ask questions and go through
them and It wasn't a case of the chair interfering.
She just wanted to learn and understand. And I remember
(28:05):
we turned to each other after about the fourth deep dive.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And went, this is never going to work. And we
both think, yeah, it's not going to work.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
And it wasn't. It wasn't the actual hardware. The straddles
work really well. They're running around the port. Now we've
converted them to manual their service now for the next
fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
They're a good kid.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
The software wasn't stable and the software didn't work, and
that's when you've got to ask yourself, am I just
continuing to throw good money after bad And at that
stage we were spending about eight hundred thousand to two
million dollars a month on the on the software trying
to k and it wasn't working. It was two years late,
(28:45):
it was it was running at a third of the
speed that it was supposed to according to the business case.
And when I asked the vendors when will it be right,
they said, we don't know, just trust us turn it
on and I said no. So anyway, Jane and I
then went on a journey of discussing and explaining to
the world. Why And it was a pretty hard call,
(29:05):
you know, sixty five million dollar right off. It was
an interesting conversation with meyor Gough near the end of
his term when I let him know that. And there's
no way we could repurpose it. We couldn't resell it.
It was sixty five million of ratepayers money gone. But
it was better than continuing on. And that's where you
get to a sunk You've got to acknowledge sunk costs,
bias sometimes in decision making and go it's not working.
(29:28):
It was the same when I was at Goodminfielder in Australia.
Did this whole just in time resupply of raw materials
to bakeries grade in theory was perfect, theory should have worked.
Complete cluster didn't work. Couldn't get the stuff to the bakeries.
So in the end you went, okay, stop, go back
to what we had and walk away from a very
(29:50):
big project and just say didn't pass the sniff test.
Maybe we should have made that call at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, because it would be hard when you're panning your
and when you've got staff who are panning their professional
reputations on it, to say no it's an abject failure.
You know, we've got to stop.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, but it's only money. And I know that sounds
a bit flippy.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well it's not yours.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
No, no, it's not mine. But even if it had
been mine, I still would have I probably would have
killed it a bit earlier. If I was bleeding eight
hundred grand a week a month, I should say. But
what I'd say is sometimes you've got to just make
the call and go enough is enough and say, Okay,
that didn't work, then fix it. You know, And I
always think managers worry too much. But what about my reputation?
(30:35):
What about this? And you go, mate, just call it.
It's okay to make a mistake. We all make them
in life.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Just fix it.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
And that's where I think people get. They chase perfection.
They chase because they're scared of acknowledging. I made a mistake.
And we had a project earlier this year. We had
to stop. It got to it was a digital project
and in the end we had to write off about
a million dollars. And you know, I think the managers
(31:02):
who were responsible for it were a bit worried I
was going to sack them.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And there's that old line.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
I spent all this money training you mate, I'm going
to I'm not going to lose that experience, and I
think we should all take that approach.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I remember mediating a discussion with the Health and Disability
Commissioner and senior doctors and they were terrified of being wrong.
For them, it's life and death things, yes, you know,
but they there's a real danger and being in an
organization or believing that you cannot ever be wrong or
(31:36):
make a mistake, because inevitably you'll end up making more
if you don't have the freedom to make mistakes.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
And I think so many businesses need to create a
culture where you're allowed to make mistakes, You're allowed to
try something, and that's where you get true innovation, that's.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Where you get stuff.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Otherwise, everybody sits back, stays conservative, and nothing I think changes,
nothing grows. So I'm a big believer in letting people
give people a safe sand pit whatever you want to
call it, to operate within, as long as they don't
keep making the same mistake or keep making mistakes. But
I do believe you've got to let people have a crack.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Well, I suppose with social media and the court of
public opinion and everybody having a recon these days, it
seems that the fallout is so huge if people do
make a mistake that it can be scary.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Yeah, and I think that's valid, and so you know,
as leaders of the business, we've got to be there
to protect our people and make sure they don't get
blamed for it.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
But yeah, it is tough.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Do you think it was the right call for your
predecessor to be prosecuted personally?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Ah, Look, that was a decision made by the regulator.
I don't have a view on that. What I'd say
is the port made it. The Port company made a
decision off the back of that fatality to plead guilty,
and I believe that was the right decision for the
port company to make. I can't comment on why the
(33:08):
regulator chose to do what they did and who they
chose to seek prosecution against. I think it's important now
we wait for the appeal and see what the outcome
of that is.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah. I mean, there's that idea that's taken hold more
recently that you can't hide behind a company that directors
like the main Zeal directors were held accountable personally. Is
that the right way to go in general and business.
For personal accountability, yep.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I believe so, and you know I live with that
every day. You know, I'm personally accountable for lots of
things within the port and I'm okay with that. That
comes with the job. What I'd say from my perspective
is if you if you have that accountability, then do
your job to make sure you do the stuff that
you've got to do to give yourself comfort when you
(33:59):
lie awake at night. Did I do everything I possibly could?
Be it operationally, be it from a safety perspective, but
it how people are treated right the way through to
are we trading while we're solving? You know, there's a
whole gamut of stuff that as a senior leader you're
responsible for and you're just going to make sure you
do your job.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And to do your job well, you have to have
a good life outside of work. Yes, So how do
you do that?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah? It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
As I said earlier, I'm the be like I do
like to party with my friends. So you know, I
socialize a lot with friends. I've got a fantastic group
of friends here and back in Australia.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I this is a.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Sort of thing I don't know. Lots of people listen
to music or meditate. Carrier, I watch really bad television and.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Like six in the study, I was.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Watching just like that two nights ago. I lost.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
And then there's an how called CUBI which has all
these shlocks, sixties and fifties horror movies and things on it.
I watched that religiously normally on a Saturday morning. I
had a cup of coffee when I first wake up,
and I watch a really bad Jialio movie or something
like that. My wife just wanders passed. Sin says right.
And then obviously I spent time with Caroline the kids.
(35:19):
We are on a blockout in coastal, so there's quite
a lot of lawn knowing. So I do listen to
talking books while I'm on the ride on as well
sci fi or no No No politics as you'd expect business,
those sort of things.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, and like podcasts like this, like this, like exactly
like this. In terms of the healthy mind and the
healthy body, do you think it's important? Does the keeping
fit thing, because I'm just making an observation visual observation,
you're obviously fit. Does that come from the army or
from trying to clear your head from the day's work.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I think it's I think it does come from the army,
so I tend to excit. I was in the morning,
so I was in the gym this morning. And what
that does is it helps me prepare for the day.
And you know, we've just, as I said, done a renovation,
so we put on a gym so I can literally
wake up and walk through a door into the gym.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So that's an indulgence that I'm lucky enough to have.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
But I do believe in walking and doing some exercise
to just a focus and to clear the head, because
there's a lot of noise in a job and a
lot of noise in life. So sometimes it's just nice
to have that time to myself and watch one of
those Tubi movies while I'm on the treadmill.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
I can't believe you're watching six In the study, I
picked that as the worst no example.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I'd love to meet carry Breadshaw one day.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Can you learn to be a good boss or do
you happen to be one? It sounds like you can
learn to be a better boss.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah. Look, I think I think you can learn to
be a good boss. I do.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
I think you We're all built with a preparedness to lead.
Some of us like doing it, some of us don't.
Some of us don't want to be in management, and
that's fine. I think, what if you want to be
a really good boss, then I think you've got to
be open to feedback. You've got to be prepared to
keep improving. You've got to be that learner that I
(37:16):
talked about Christopher luxen Is. I try and be the same.
I'm trying to always get better. And I think if
you come into it with humbleness and preparedness to learn
and develop yourself, you can go a long way in
becoming a highly effective executive.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
As a management degree the best way to become a.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Boss, well, my first degree was an arts degree in
economics and history and politics. Actually, I have done a
number of management courses and MBA and things, and I
think they all go to helping codify the skills you
get in the workplace, and they do teach you some
(37:55):
tools and some tricks to help you. So I think
they're in adjunct too. I don't think they are the
way I think they contribute to you. If you're prepared
to be a learner.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Wi business decision you made in your career.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Probably that just in time Goodman Fielder example, back in Australia,
that was yeah, that wasn't good.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
What is something you'll never regret.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
I'll never regret coming here to Porteval, I'll never regret
coming to live in New Zealand. I'll never regret joining
the army, and I'll never regret having a crack at
politics because at least I had to go.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Did join me? Missed out by one percent year.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
One point eight percent, not that I'm counting, and in
not that you know that eighteen hundred votes couldn't have
just nine hundred had changed, I would have been. But
if that had happened, that was in two thousand and four,
I would never have come to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
So would you have been Prime Minister.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Scott Well? I knew Scott Morrison at the time.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
He was State director when I was a candidate, so
he got to be Prime minister.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
So let's wait and see.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Anyway, that's the past. It's not something would I have
liked to have been? Yes, I would have liked to
have been. Would yeah, I make no bones about it.
If you're going to be in government, if you're going
to be in politics, and you want to be in
government and you want to be able to affect change.
It's great to sit in opposition and oppose, but the
(39:18):
thing that's important for me is about making a real difference.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Will you ever given a piece of advice that stays
with you today?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
My boss Gordon Hardy, who's now running a US listed company,
he said to me, Roger, make a decision. And I said, okay,
what means when you get seventy percent of if you
get seventy percent of your decisions right, just too many
people want too much information. So Gordon said, after a while,
you go, right, I'm going to have a crack, and
he goes, you go, yep, make the call. And if
(39:51):
you get seventy percent of your decisions right, and you
fix seventy percent of your mistakes in a timely manner,
you'll get ninety one percent of your decisions right in
the time the manner. And I've never forgotten that because
what that did is it said to me, make a call.
I think too many people wait to want too much information,
and that's worse than not making a decision, even if
(40:12):
it's the wrong decision. So that was one that was
probably the great bit of business advice Gordon gave me.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Do you ever listen to your gut or as it
always hid?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Ah, it's both.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I do.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I'm quite numerous, so I do. I will, I will
look at the numbers.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
But sometimes, like I said earlier, you just know this
doesn't past the sniff test. There's just something not right.
That's when you've got to trust your gut because the
numbers might all be telling you. But if it doesn't,
it doesn't past the pub test. Don't do it. And
so I actually trust both. And if you ask me
what would I take preference over, I'd probably take it
(40:52):
over my gut.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
You can't just you can't nullify your spidy sensors. They're
there for a reason. They are great piece of advice.
I think that's one to remember for all of us.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Roger Gray of Port of Auckland still cannot get over
the fact that Sets in the City is his favorite
TV show, Isn't it just as well? We're all different.
If you want to hear more stories about what it's
really like to be a boss, make sure you check
out Bosses Unfiltered on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Catch you next time,
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