December 8, 2024 • 11 mins
Labour is accusing the Government of pushing forward with its boot camp pilot even in the face of obvious failure.
This comes as two participants who fled the programmewere arrested by police officers responding to a carjacking in Hamilton yesterday.
CEO of the Billy Youth Foundation David Graham says the longer the young men are in the bootcamps, the less
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carrywood of morning's podcast from News
Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
B Labor's accusing the government of pushing forward with its
boot camp pilot in the face of obvious failure to
Participants who fled the program have been picked up by
police officers responding to a car jacking in Hamilton yesterday.
The pair absconded following the funeral of another boot camp
participant who died in a Tito car accident. Children's Minister
(00:31):
Karen Shaw says Urga Tamariki can't restrict the teen's movements
now they're in the community phase of the pilot. David
Graham is the CEO of the Billy Graham Youth Foundation.
He joins me now he stepped out of a meeting.
Thank you very much, David, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good morning, Carrie, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Is this kind of to be expected in a pilot
program dealing with the very worst young offenders, that there
will be glitches along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, I think so. If it's true that these are
ten of the hardest youth offenders in the country, then yeah,
we can expect that this is going to be a
long road for them. We look at the complexity in
these young men's lives and just yeah, the ways that
the environments that are brought up in and we know
(01:22):
that if we are to counteract all of that complexity,
we'll just call it that. And yeah, it's going to
take a lot of work from the communities and from
social studases and from everyone involved.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Now, Karen, she was looking at extending the program, but really,
I mean, the kids could be there for three months
or three years, but they're protected there. They're in a
protected environment where they've got everybody working for them. They
are the most important people in the whole wide world.
There are no temptations there. They want to succeed, they
(01:57):
believe they can succeed. Then they go outside and all
of a sudden it's all on again. How the key
is not surely the key is not the length of
the program, but what happens next, what happens when they
come out of the program into the community.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I think you're right on the money there. The question
is what is the function of the residential phase. And
let's be very clear, myself and our team, we spent
quite a few sessions, quite a few months up until Eliot,
the Youth Justice Facility in Paris, North with these these
ten young men. And it's not when we say residential phase,
(02:41):
it doesn't do it justice. This is prison. You walk
into that environment and this is a prison environment and
all of the culture, all of the fields that you
get watching maybe about prison, you walk into those spaces
and that's what it is, is that these young men
are in prison. Although for young people, so the question
(03:01):
is what is the function of those spaces. And if
the function is let's just get them out of the
community because that's where that's where they're creating harm, then
that's fine. You can lock them up, and the longer
they're in there, less they're going to be on the street. However,
if the outcome that we're after is that these young
(03:22):
men transition back into the community and have the options
to live a life that so many of our day
stay young people have, then yeah, it's lock them up
for three months or eighteen months, as the amendment bill suggests.
The longer that in there, the less likely they are
to transition back into the community. We all know what
(03:44):
it's like when you're in an environment, and the longer
you in it, the more accustomed you become to that environment.
The last thing we want to do is have these
young men becoming comfortable in a prison environment. It's fifteen
year olds. I know these boys, our team know these boys.
I took my wife and son them to tell you
because we form such a strong connection with these these
(04:06):
ten young men. We just had a blast with them.
It really was a special time and to see to
think about them being in that long term. The Children's
Commissioner said it correct, Yep. We use this as a
circuit breaker, get them out of harm's way for three months,
except that that's necessary. But then we have to look
at getting them back into the community, wrapping good support
(04:28):
around them if we are to give them the best
shot going forward.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So how do we do that if they go back
to their families? Aren't in many cases the families the issue?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yes, something you're talking about generational impact here, right, and
so what we're after something I'm so proud of them
in my family is that my father was that person
that put a stop to things after generations. He said, no,
that's quite enough. We are asking for a huge amount
from these young men. In my father's case, he was
taken to a local boxing gym. He loved fighting and
(05:00):
as boxing coach said to him, we're going to stop
you fighting, mister Graham, and we're going to you boxing.
And what that meant is that is that Billy is
that he founds and he was attracted to so there
was choice. He wanted to be there. He found a
coach and a community of friends that were positive, and
he stayed in that boxing gym for fifteen years. Now,
(05:23):
that's almost as simple as it gets. If we can
wrap a good community of peers around these young fellas,
and if they choose to be there, and if we
can engage with them for an extended period of time,
that gives them It's not a promise, you know, but
that gives them as good a shot as we're going
to get for them to do well going forwards.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And they're only they're only young. So how like do
they have to move away from their families and be
with organizations like yours where what they are boarded out
or they are put in a hostel or what happens?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, it's a case by case, depending on Yeah, well
exactly that case my case. And so one of the
young men from them a pilots. He's working with one
of our academies around the country and so he is
able to engage with our academy for as many hours
as he wants throughout the week. And the key thing
(06:24):
we've said is that if you want to do this,
then we're going to provide you with that opportunity. And
the more that he engages, the closer the links are
that he can develop with the boys around him. And
we're not forcing anything, it's just that's our community works.
They've got this passion, which is is the boxing, and
he's developing a passion for that, and if he wants
to continue engaging, then then we'll keep doing life of them.
(06:47):
When we first started engaging with the pilot and we
brought up with the clinical site that was there, we asked,
we said, what's the hardest what's the hardest ask you
know during the transition phase, And without a doubt, she said,
the hardest thing is developing a new peer group for
these jungmen to engage with. We can't force that. You know,
(07:09):
these boys, they've developed a connection with other young men,
often through a thrill of breaking into in stealing cars. Yeah,
and you can just imagine what that does for a
young brain and all of the adrenaline and all the
risk taking, all the things that we know, you know,
particularly young men are just it seems like they're just
wired for that that level of adrenaline.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, that's how we were able to send them into
battle when we had citizen armies or millennia.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Absolutely, you know, And I think that's why. And I
understand that boxing gets a bad rap, and I think
in a lot of cases it should. And that's why
we're so precise around our methodology around how we use
boxing as a vehicle, because it meets that threshold where
there's just enough danger and risk to capture one's attention,
(07:57):
but in a safe enough environment that you can engage
in the sport long term. And I mean, you know,
I'm thirty years of age, I'm very much a dad.
And I walked into the into ted Edit Youth Justice
Facility and that the only I had one option in
my pocket to be able to connect with these boys
because I've lived a very different life to them, and
(08:17):
that one option was boxing. And as soon as I
said the word boxing, all ten of them physically leaned
in and from that moment, right, we've we've got something
to connect on, fellas, Let's let's have a chat. And
so we spent the next twelve fifteen weeks with those
boys and this young man he's transitioned back into one
of our academies because he he likes the boxing and
(08:41):
as long as he keeps choosing to turn up, we'll
keep providing that space from. And again it's the peer
group that we've got to sort out. It is so
much that these boys are fighting against, you know, on
an hourly basis to keep the nose out of trouble.
And we're really proud to just see how well this
young man is doing at the stage. There's no promises,
(09:03):
it's up to him, but we're trying to give them
every best shot that we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And how do you survive? Do you get government funding
if you take on these young boys?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Are we it's very limited, you know, we've said to
a go to Maliki, but we're going to do this
as cheap as we possibly can because we're not too
sure about you know, we don't know what what impact
this amendment bill is going to have if if there
is a shift and they go from you know, at
the moment, it's a three month maximum period that these
(09:37):
these boys were in the in the Youth Justice Facility
for if that goes from three months to eighteen months,
that's going to put a big question mark on if
we can engage. We just don't see how it's going
to be possible. You know, that's when these boys will
become institutionalized. If that and the aff up to eighteen months.
So we've got some questions around that, and for that
reason we've been very cautious engaging with the government funding
(09:59):
because we don't know to become dependent on it. However,
the problem is that when you do work like what
we do, which is day in day out for years
and years and years, that's not very attractive to funders.
So we require we require government require private funders to
see that and to go right, We're going to trust
(10:21):
you because of the track record, and we're going to
invest into these these young men. So yes, very difficult
funding landscape, but if we want the work to be done,
then we need to pay those that are passionate about
it and those who these kids want to be with you.
If we get a chance, and you know, these young
men come out of the three month residents and they say,
(10:45):
goodness me, I want to be at the you know,
there's such and such boxing Academy and surely we should
be pumping as much funding into those spaces as we
possibly can, because that's that's the best chance we have.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Lovely to talk with you and thank you so much
for the work that you're doing. That is David Graham,
CEO of the Billy Graham Youth Foundation. You can see
the work that they do and the reports that have
gone into the work that they've done over many many
years bg y F dot org dot in z news
Talk said B.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
For more from Carrywood and Mornings, listen live to News
Talk Set B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the carrywood of morning's podcast from News
Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
B Labor's accusing the government of pushing forward with its
boot camp pilot in the face of obvious failure to
Participants who fled the program have been picked up by
police officers responding to a car jacking in Hamilton yesterday.
The pair absconded following the funeral of another boot camp
participant who died in a Tito car accident. Children's Minister
(00:31):
Karen Shaw says Urga Tamariki can't restrict the teen's movements
now they're in the community phase of the pilot. David
Graham is the CEO of the Billy Graham Youth Foundation.
He joins me now he stepped out of a meeting.
Thank you very much, David, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good morning, Carrie, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Is this kind of to be expected in a pilot
program dealing with the very worst young offenders, that there
will be glitches along the way?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, I think so. If it's true that these are
ten of the hardest youth offenders in the country, then yeah,
we can expect that this is going to be a
long road for them. We look at the complexity in
these young men's lives and just yeah, the ways that
the environments that are brought up in and we know
(01:22):
that if we are to counteract all of that complexity,
we'll just call it that. And yeah, it's going to
take a lot of work from the communities and from
social studases and from everyone involved.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Now, Karen, she was looking at extending the program, but really,
I mean, the kids could be there for three months
or three years, but they're protected there. They're in a
protected environment where they've got everybody working for them. They
are the most important people in the whole wide world.
There are no temptations there. They want to succeed, they
(01:57):
believe they can succeed. Then they go outside and all
of a sudden it's all on again. How the key
is not surely the key is not the length of
the program, but what happens next, what happens when they
come out of the program into the community.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I think you're right on the money there. The question
is what is the function of the residential phase. And
let's be very clear, myself and our team, we spent
quite a few sessions, quite a few months up until Eliot,
the Youth Justice Facility in Paris, North with these these
ten young men. And it's not when we say residential phase,
(02:41):
it doesn't do it justice. This is prison. You walk
into that environment and this is a prison environment and
all of the culture, all of the fields that you
get watching maybe about prison, you walk into those spaces
and that's what it is, is that these young men
are in prison. Although for young people, so the question
(03:01):
is what is the function of those spaces. And if
the function is let's just get them out of the
community because that's where that's where they're creating harm, then
that's fine. You can lock them up, and the longer
they're in there, less they're going to be on the street. However,
if the outcome that we're after is that these young
(03:22):
men transition back into the community and have the options
to live a life that so many of our day
stay young people have, then yeah, it's lock them up
for three months or eighteen months, as the amendment bill suggests.
The longer that in there, the less likely they are
to transition back into the community. We all know what
(03:44):
it's like when you're in an environment, and the longer
you in it, the more accustomed you become to that environment.
The last thing we want to do is have these
young men becoming comfortable in a prison environment. It's fifteen
year olds. I know these boys, our team know these boys.
I took my wife and son them to tell you
because we form such a strong connection with these these
(04:06):
ten young men. We just had a blast with them.
It really was a special time and to see to
think about them being in that long term. The Children's
Commissioner said it correct, Yep. We use this as a
circuit breaker, get them out of harm's way for three months,
except that that's necessary. But then we have to look
at getting them back into the community, wrapping good support
(04:28):
around them if we are to give them the best
shot going forward.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So how do we do that if they go back
to their families? Aren't in many cases the families the issue?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yes, something you're talking about generational impact here, right, and
so what we're after something I'm so proud of them
in my family is that my father was that person
that put a stop to things after generations. He said, no,
that's quite enough. We are asking for a huge amount
from these young men. In my father's case, he was
taken to a local boxing gym. He loved fighting and
(05:00):
as boxing coach said to him, we're going to stop
you fighting, mister Graham, and we're going to you boxing.
And what that meant is that is that Billy is
that he founds and he was attracted to so there
was choice. He wanted to be there. He found a
coach and a community of friends that were positive, and
he stayed in that boxing gym for fifteen years. Now,
(05:23):
that's almost as simple as it gets. If we can
wrap a good community of peers around these young fellas,
and if they choose to be there, and if we
can engage with them for an extended period of time,
that gives them It's not a promise, you know, but
that gives them as good a shot as we're going
to get for them to do well going forwards.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And they're only they're only young. So how like do
they have to move away from their families and be
with organizations like yours where what they are boarded out
or they are put in a hostel or what happens?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, it's a case by case, depending on Yeah, well
exactly that case my case. And so one of the
young men from them a pilots. He's working with one
of our academies around the country and so he is
able to engage with our academy for as many hours
as he wants throughout the week. And the key thing
(06:24):
we've said is that if you want to do this,
then we're going to provide you with that opportunity. And
the more that he engages, the closer the links are
that he can develop with the boys around him. And
we're not forcing anything, it's just that's our community works.
They've got this passion, which is is the boxing, and
he's developing a passion for that, and if he wants
to continue engaging, then then we'll keep doing life of them.
(06:47):
When we first started engaging with the pilot and we
brought up with the clinical site that was there, we asked,
we said, what's the hardest what's the hardest ask you
know during the transition phase, And without a doubt, she said,
the hardest thing is developing a new peer group for
these jungmen to engage with. We can't force that. You know,
(07:09):
these boys, they've developed a connection with other young men,
often through a thrill of breaking into in stealing cars. Yeah,
and you can just imagine what that does for a
young brain and all of the adrenaline and all the
risk taking, all the things that we know, you know,
particularly young men are just it seems like they're just
wired for that that level of adrenaline.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, that's how we were able to send them into
battle when we had citizen armies or millennia.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Absolutely, you know, And I think that's why. And I
understand that boxing gets a bad rap, and I think
in a lot of cases it should. And that's why
we're so precise around our methodology around how we use
boxing as a vehicle, because it meets that threshold where
there's just enough danger and risk to capture one's attention,
(07:57):
but in a safe enough environment that you can engage
in the sport long term. And I mean, you know,
I'm thirty years of age, I'm very much a dad.
And I walked into the into ted Edit Youth Justice
Facility and that the only I had one option in
my pocket to be able to connect with these boys
because I've lived a very different life to them, and
(08:17):
that one option was boxing. And as soon as I
said the word boxing, all ten of them physically leaned
in and from that moment, right, we've we've got something
to connect on, fellas, Let's let's have a chat. And
so we spent the next twelve fifteen weeks with those
boys and this young man he's transitioned back into one
of our academies because he he likes the boxing and
(08:41):
as long as he keeps choosing to turn up, we'll
keep providing that space from. And again it's the peer
group that we've got to sort out. It is so
much that these boys are fighting against, you know, on
an hourly basis to keep the nose out of trouble.
And we're really proud to just see how well this
young man is doing at the stage. There's no promises,
(09:03):
it's up to him, but we're trying to give them
every best shot that we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And how do you survive? Do you get government funding
if you take on these young boys?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Are we it's very limited, you know, we've said to
a go to Maliki, but we're going to do this
as cheap as we possibly can because we're not too
sure about you know, we don't know what what impact
this amendment bill is going to have if if there
is a shift and they go from you know, at
the moment, it's a three month maximum period that these
(09:37):
these boys were in the in the Youth Justice Facility
for if that goes from three months to eighteen months,
that's going to put a big question mark on if
we can engage. We just don't see how it's going
to be possible. You know, that's when these boys will
become institutionalized. If that and the aff up to eighteen months.
So we've got some questions around that, and for that
reason we've been very cautious engaging with the government funding
(09:59):
because we don't know to become dependent on it. However,
the problem is that when you do work like what
we do, which is day in day out for years
and years and years, that's not very attractive to funders.
So we require we require government require private funders to
see that and to go right, We're going to trust
(10:21):
you because of the track record, and we're going to
invest into these these young men. So yes, very difficult
funding landscape, but if we want the work to be done,
then we need to pay those that are passionate about
it and those who these kids want to be with you.
If we get a chance, and you know, these young
men come out of the three month residents and they say,
(10:45):
goodness me, I want to be at the you know,
there's such and such boxing Academy and surely we should
be pumping as much funding into those spaces as we
possibly can, because that's that's the best chance we have.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Lovely to talk with you and thank you so much
for the work that you're doing. That is David Graham,
CEO of the Billy Graham Youth Foundation. You can see
the work that they do and the reports that have
gone into the work that they've done over many many
years bg y F dot org dot in z news
Talk said B.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
For more from Carrywood and Mornings, listen live to News
Talk Set B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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