Calls to expand the Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment Court across the country.
AODTC was launched in New Zealand in 2012 as a pilot to steer high-risk, high-need offenders away from prison.
Offenders must plead guilty and face a likely prison term of up to three years for drug offences, committing to a tough 12- to 18-month program including regular drug testing, AA or NA meetings, and counselling.
The courts are incredibly successful in the United States, resulting in some prisons in Texas closing due to lack of need.
Dr Doug Marlowe, a global expert on drug-court policy, told Kerre Woodham early studies of the system showed low rates of people committing new crimes and high rates of people completing treatment, avoiding jail sentences, and avoiding probation revocations.
He says that when Judges take a personal interest in the treatment the participants are receiving, their influence and authority in the community helped to bring more resources to bear for their clients.
Marlowe told Woodham that treatment courts raised all ships – raising the quality of treatment, the quality of defence council representation, and the quality of probation supervision.
“Treatment is the core of the model, and if you don’t have good treatment, you know, your outcomes are severely limited.”
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Mornings podcast from News
Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment Court or AODTC, began
in New Zealand and twenty twelve as a pilot to
steer high risk, high need offenders away from prison. To qualify,
vendors must plead guilty and face a likely prison term
of up to three years for drug offenses. They then
commit to a tough twelve to eighteen month program, regular
(00:33):
drug testing, AA or NA meetings and counseling. The court
in this country currently operates in Auckland and Hamilton, but
there are calls to expand it nationwide, following the lead
of countries like the United States, which has three thousand
drug courts. In Texas, prisons are closing down because these
courts work so well. Doctor Doug marlow, a global expert
(00:56):
on drug court policy, as the keynote speaker at the
New Zealand AODTC conference starting tomorrow. A very good afternoon,
niyai understand, doctor Marlowe, Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh, no, very nice and goodness. If it's starting tomorrow,
when do you hop on the plane.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, I'm doing it online. I'm going to be doing
a video presentation to the conference. So I'm still in
the US.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh okay, that's very green of you. Right, you're cutting
at it. But fine to get to Auckland anyway, whether
you're in person or online, you'll be fabulous. Now tell
me for about the genesis of these drug courts.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So, basically, starting in the late nineteen eighties of the
US was experiencing a major prison crisis because of our
war on drugs. There were, you know, really hundreds not
thousands of cases of drug involved crimes being processed. To
the course, people were getting mandatory jail sentences, and then
as soon as people were released, they were basically coming
(02:05):
right back on new charges. And so something had to give,
and some judges in Miami Dade, Florida, came up with
the idea of having a special court program where people
could plead guilty but the charge would not be formally entered,
so that they could continue out, you know, in the community,
(02:27):
appearing in court regularly, where the judge would work with
them oversee the case, they would get the treatment they need,
they would have defense counsel, representation and prosecutors, and this
would be a way to keep people out of jail
without risking public safety because they would get both treatment
and supervision concurrently. And the programs were, you know, very
(02:51):
very successful. Early studies were really showing that there were,
you know, very low rates of people committing new crimes,
there were very high rates of people completing treatment and
avoiding jail sentences, avoiding probation vocations. And so the program
started to expand around the country and we went from
(03:12):
one in the late eighties to probably close to four
thousand if you're counting different kinds of drug courts for
there are some for adolescence, there are mental health courts
for people with mental health disorders, people with veterans, so
they really have taken off of the United States.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Did there have to be an absolute building up of
treatment centers to cope with the demand, or was their
capacity in the existing drug treatment centers?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
No, you know, the treatment, you know, treatment has always
been funded, under resourced, under available in most jurisdictions in
the United States, and I would be shocked if that
wasn't true in other countries, including New Zealand. What we
found though, is that when judges took a personal interest
(04:08):
in the treatment that participants were getting, when the treatment
providers were actually a member of the team that were
meeting regularly with the judge and with the probation officer
and the prosecutor. That judges, their their essentially their political influence,
their their authority in the community, their their you know,
(04:30):
their connections helped to to bring more resources to bear
for their clients, and so uh, treatment courts became, you know,
sort of they basically raised all ships. They raised the
quality of treatment, they raised the equality of defense council representation,
they raised the quality of probation supervision. But it is
(04:52):
always a challenge. Treatment is the core of the model,
and if you don't have good treatment, you know, your
outcomes are going to be severely limited.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
What's the difference between a drug edit and somebody who's
a criminal who you know, a drug addict who commits crimes,
and a criminal who uses drugs.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So it's we make a distinction between people who have
a compulsive addiction. Do when when you're taking lots of
these drugs. These drugs are affecting the neurotransmitters in your brain,
and depending on how young you were when you started,
how long you used, how potent the drugs were, and
(05:36):
what your genetic vulnerability, your genetic propensity for addiction is
some people will reach a point where they are compulsively
and neurologically addicted to the drug. If they don't take
the drug, they get sick, they experience withdrawal symptoms, they
experience these cravings, the intense urges for the drug. They
(05:57):
try to stop, but they can't stop. And so when
people have this compulsive neurological disorder and they are using,
and they're committing crimes or engaged in other activities to
support that addiction, that is, you know, that is the
person that we are most looking for in the context
(06:19):
of a treatment core program. Now, you know, the point
you raise is there are many people who are who
do lots of bad things. There are people who are
engaged in antisocial lifestyles that can make crimes. They use drugs,
they abuse drugs, but the drugs are not the cause
of the criminal activity. It's all part of an antisocial lifestyle.
(06:39):
What we have actually found is that those people can
also do fairly well in treatment course if they get
a very different kind of intervention. But the people we're
looking for are the people who are what we would
call addicted. They have a brain disorder that is driving
their behavior. Those are the people we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
See, if I was a crime then I would probably think,
you know, I'd rather go the drug court way and
have not even a cushy option, but an option where
I've got one on one where somebody sees me and
is going to listen to me. So can they self
select or do you decide? Does the court decide who
(07:20):
gets the benefit of the drug court as opposed to
the normal criminal court.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's a good question. It's actually a essentially a negotiation
between the participants that the person, the offender and their
defense counsel are talking with the prosecution and they are
coming up with what is essentially a plea deal, and
so the defendant does need to agree to the program.
The programs are not compulsory, they are involuntary. The person
(07:52):
enters in order to avoid a more serious sentence. That's
why they enter the program. They are then assessed to
determine whether they in fact have a compulsive addiction, to
make sure that they don't have any kind of crimes
in their background that would make them ineligible. So these
programs will not take people with sex offenses and certain
(08:13):
violent offense histories, things like that, and then the option
is offered by the prosecution, and then defense counselors from
negotiates that deal with the prosecution. So it is it
is basically an agreement between the state and the participant.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Okay, and what happens if they fail? So are we
allowed to say fail? I'm not sure we are. Are
we allowed to say fail?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well, you know, you know, I tend to use the
term don't complete successfully though, I know that, but yeah,
I mean, you know, but you know, you're right. I mean,
there's you know, the term fail is sometimes seen as
being stigmatizing. But the point here is that you're making
we're making essentially agree agreement, a contract with that person.
(09:02):
You're going to do these things. You're going to go
to treatment, You're going to take medications if they're appropriate.
You're going to abide by your curfew. You're gonna talk
to your probation office. You're gonna do all these things.
You're gonna avoid drugs. You're gonna do these things, and
if you do them, your charges, your guilty plea will
be vacated. I'm not sure exactly how the terminology in
(09:25):
New Zealand, but Essentially, the charges are going to be
dropped in exchange for you doing well, but because you
have pled guilty. If you don't do well, then you're
going to go to certain things on that original crime.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Okay, that's the leverage. Yeah, that's the leverage, and that
saves another court process, you know, another correct. Yes, Okay,
we have got a major drug problem in this country
and we have we joined the club, and we've got
people who are profiting out of others' misery, out of
(10:01):
their addiction and out of their woe, and families that
are torn apart. You know, you've seen it. You have
seen it a thousand arms. I would love to see
this work. I would love to see people out of
the group of addiction and living their best lives and
just being free, free of the horror of addiction.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
You know, people need to understand that when when you've
passed over to the point of the compulsive addiction, your
life is a living hell and the people in your
life are living that hell with you. Okay. I'm not
saying that there aren't people out there that are using
drugs and they're getting high and they're enjoying it and
(10:44):
it's part of their lifestyle. I'm saying, once you have
reached the point where the drugs have kidnapped your brain,
you now live for no other purpose than to avoid
withdrawal and cravings and sickness. That addiction runs your life.
At that point, it is utter misery. And for those people,
(11:06):
when you see somebody that you would it looks like
they're death warmed over when they've been arrested for the
forty seventh time this year and they come into court
and they're barely conscious and they're barely paying attention, and
people in the room think, oh my god, this person's
not going to live. And then you see that person
six months later, twelve months later, and they're wearing nice
(11:29):
clothes and they're about to go on their first job
interview that they've been on in twenty five years, or
they have their children are in the courtroom rooting them
on their children that lost custody of years before. When
you see that, that's that's what changes you. You the caregiver,
that's what changes you. But you raised the point when
(11:52):
you were talking about the dealers, and I do want
to make it clear that people that are dealing drugs
as a business don't go to drug courts. Okay, drug courts. Now,
I'm not saying that somebody who deals drugs could get
into a drug court if they're compulsively addicted and they're
basically dealing is the only way to get drugs to
(12:12):
feed their habit. But if somebody is a drug dealer,
like that's their business, they're not coming into a drug court.
That's an exclusion criteria. They're going hopefully to prison.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, and very seldom do they actually use the drugs
to that kind of level. They they're not stupid, you know,
they use the stupid and the addicted to do their
duty work for them.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Well, there are two kinds of dealers. There's the dealers exactly,
the dealers that are in charge. They are what you
just described, you know, they they don't they know how
to avoid their own product, or they use it you
know different, you know, very differently. And you know, but
there you would be very hard pressed to find somebody
with an addiction who didn't also sell as a way
(12:59):
to because they have no other way to make money.
And so some of these people are selling just to
support their habit. Yeah, and so those people, if that's
what's going on, the person's just selling as a way
to you know, I buy one hundred dollars worth, I
keep some for myself. I sell the other at a
profit so I have more money so that I can
keep my own addiction going. Those people can sometimes get
(13:20):
into treatment courts as long as they have that serious addiction.
They're not in it as a business, no, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So what will be the message that you're giving to
our attends at the conference tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Well, so, you know, getting these kinds of programs to
get the kind of funding and public support and political
support they need is a constant challenge, and we need
to get the word out. And so I've been asked
to essentially do three things tomorrow. First, prove that these
programs work. What does the research say? Show us the
(13:57):
research prove it. Okay, give us the citations. Tell us
how much can we expect them to reduce crime? How
much can we expect them to reduce overdose steps? You know,
how much money are they going to save us by prison,
you know, by avoiding prison sentences? Show us that information, So.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Just go one minute for the last two points. Sorry, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And then who do they work for? Which is what
you and I were just talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
And then third, how to do them right. Because these
programs are not simple. You have to learn how to
do them right. And so teaching people the basic skills,
this is how you run your drug court, the right
way to be successful. That's it.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Fantastic. Thank you so much for those insights. I really
appreciate it. Dr tug Malo, leading researcher, an educator and
drug court policy What an outstanding interview in an amazing
process to help people recover from addiction. Let's have that here,
says Tony.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Carrywood and Mornings podcast from News
Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment Court or AODTC, began
in New Zealand and twenty twelve as a pilot to
steer high risk, high need offenders away from prison. To qualify,
vendors must plead guilty and face a likely prison term
of up to three years for drug offenses. They then
commit to a tough twelve to eighteen month program, regular
(00:33):
drug testing, AA or NA meetings and counseling. The court
in this country currently operates in Auckland and Hamilton, but
there are calls to expand it nationwide, following the lead
of countries like the United States, which has three thousand
drug courts. In Texas, prisons are closing down because these
courts work so well. Doctor Doug marlow, a global expert
(00:56):
on drug court policy, as the keynote speaker at the
New Zealand AODTC conference starting tomorrow. A very good afternoon,
niyai understand, doctor Marlowe, Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh, no, very nice and goodness. If it's starting tomorrow,
when do you hop on the plane.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, I'm doing it online. I'm going to be doing
a video presentation to the conference. So I'm still in
the US.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh okay, that's very green of you. Right, you're cutting
at it. But fine to get to Auckland anyway, whether
you're in person or online, you'll be fabulous. Now tell
me for about the genesis of these drug courts.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So, basically, starting in the late nineteen eighties of the
US was experiencing a major prison crisis because of our
war on drugs. There were, you know, really hundreds not
thousands of cases of drug involved crimes being processed. To
the course, people were getting mandatory jail sentences, and then
as soon as people were released, they were basically coming
(02:05):
right back on new charges. And so something had to give,
and some judges in Miami Dade, Florida, came up with
the idea of having a special court program where people
could plead guilty but the charge would not be formally entered,
so that they could continue out, you know, in the community,
(02:27):
appearing in court regularly, where the judge would work with
them oversee the case, they would get the treatment they need,
they would have defense counsel, representation and prosecutors, and this
would be a way to keep people out of jail
without risking public safety because they would get both treatment
and supervision concurrently. And the programs were, you know, very
(02:51):
very successful. Early studies were really showing that there were,
you know, very low rates of people committing new crimes,
there were very high rates of people completing treatment and
avoiding jail sentences, avoiding probation vocations. And so the program
started to expand around the country and we went from
(03:12):
one in the late eighties to probably close to four
thousand if you're counting different kinds of drug courts for
there are some for adolescence, there are mental health courts
for people with mental health disorders, people with veterans, so
they really have taken off of the United States.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Did there have to be an absolute building up of
treatment centers to cope with the demand, or was their
capacity in the existing drug treatment centers?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
No, you know, the treatment, you know, treatment has always
been funded, under resourced, under available in most jurisdictions in
the United States, and I would be shocked if that
wasn't true in other countries, including New Zealand. What we
found though, is that when judges took a personal interest
(04:08):
in the treatment that participants were getting, when the treatment
providers were actually a member of the team that were
meeting regularly with the judge and with the probation officer
and the prosecutor. That judges, their their essentially their political influence,
their their authority in the community, their their you know,
(04:30):
their connections helped to to bring more resources to bear
for their clients, and so uh, treatment courts became, you know,
sort of they basically raised all ships. They raised the
quality of treatment, they raised the equality of defense council representation,
they raised the quality of probation supervision. But it is
(04:52):
always a challenge. Treatment is the core of the model,
and if you don't have good treatment, you know, your
outcomes are going to be severely limited.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
What's the difference between a drug edit and somebody who's
a criminal who you know, a drug addict who commits crimes,
and a criminal who uses drugs.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So it's we make a distinction between people who have
a compulsive addiction. Do when when you're taking lots of
these drugs. These drugs are affecting the neurotransmitters in your brain,
and depending on how young you were when you started,
how long you used, how potent the drugs were, and
(05:36):
what your genetic vulnerability, your genetic propensity for addiction is
some people will reach a point where they are compulsively
and neurologically addicted to the drug. If they don't take
the drug, they get sick, they experience withdrawal symptoms, they
experience these cravings, the intense urges for the drug. They
(05:57):
try to stop, but they can't stop. And so when
people have this compulsive neurological disorder and they are using,
and they're committing crimes or engaged in other activities to
support that addiction, that is, you know, that is the
person that we are most looking for in the context
(06:19):
of a treatment core program. Now, you know, the point
you raise is there are many people who are who
do lots of bad things. There are people who are
engaged in antisocial lifestyles that can make crimes. They use drugs,
they abuse drugs, but the drugs are not the cause
of the criminal activity. It's all part of an antisocial lifestyle.
(06:39):
What we have actually found is that those people can
also do fairly well in treatment course if they get
a very different kind of intervention. But the people we're
looking for are the people who are what we would
call addicted. They have a brain disorder that is driving
their behavior. Those are the people we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
See, if I was a crime then I would probably think,
you know, I'd rather go the drug court way and
have not even a cushy option, but an option where
I've got one on one where somebody sees me and
is going to listen to me. So can they self
select or do you decide? Does the court decide who
(07:20):
gets the benefit of the drug court as opposed to
the normal criminal court.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's a good question. It's actually a essentially a negotiation
between the participants that the person, the offender and their
defense counsel are talking with the prosecution and they are
coming up with what is essentially a plea deal, and
so the defendant does need to agree to the program.
The programs are not compulsory, they are involuntary. The person
(07:52):
enters in order to avoid a more serious sentence. That's
why they enter the program. They are then assessed to
determine whether they in fact have a compulsive addiction, to
make sure that they don't have any kind of crimes
in their background that would make them ineligible. So these
programs will not take people with sex offenses and certain
(08:13):
violent offense histories, things like that, and then the option
is offered by the prosecution, and then defense counselors from
negotiates that deal with the prosecution. So it is it
is basically an agreement between the state and the participant.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Okay, and what happens if they fail? So are we
allowed to say fail? I'm not sure we are. Are
we allowed to say fail?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well, you know, you know, I tend to use the
term don't complete successfully though, I know that, but yeah,
I mean, you know, but you know, you're right. I mean,
there's you know, the term fail is sometimes seen as
being stigmatizing. But the point here is that you're making
we're making essentially agree agreement, a contract with that person.
(09:02):
You're going to do these things. You're going to go
to treatment, You're going to take medications if they're appropriate.
You're going to abide by your curfew. You're gonna talk
to your probation office. You're gonna do all these things.
You're gonna avoid drugs. You're gonna do these things, and
if you do them, your charges, your guilty plea will
be vacated. I'm not sure exactly how the terminology in
(09:25):
New Zealand, but Essentially, the charges are going to be
dropped in exchange for you doing well, but because you
have pled guilty. If you don't do well, then you're
going to go to certain things on that original crime.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Okay, that's the leverage. Yeah, that's the leverage, and that
saves another court process, you know, another correct. Yes, Okay,
we have got a major drug problem in this country
and we have we joined the club, and we've got
people who are profiting out of others' misery, out of
(10:01):
their addiction and out of their woe, and families that
are torn apart. You know, you've seen it. You have
seen it a thousand arms. I would love to see
this work. I would love to see people out of
the group of addiction and living their best lives and
just being free, free of the horror of addiction.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
You know, people need to understand that when when you've
passed over to the point of the compulsive addiction, your
life is a living hell and the people in your
life are living that hell with you. Okay. I'm not
saying that there aren't people out there that are using
drugs and they're getting high and they're enjoying it and
(10:44):
it's part of their lifestyle. I'm saying, once you have
reached the point where the drugs have kidnapped your brain,
you now live for no other purpose than to avoid
withdrawal and cravings and sickness. That addiction runs your life.
At that point, it is utter misery. And for those people,
(11:06):
when you see somebody that you would it looks like
they're death warmed over when they've been arrested for the
forty seventh time this year and they come into court
and they're barely conscious and they're barely paying attention, and
people in the room think, oh my god, this person's
not going to live. And then you see that person
six months later, twelve months later, and they're wearing nice
(11:29):
clothes and they're about to go on their first job
interview that they've been on in twenty five years, or
they have their children are in the courtroom rooting them
on their children that lost custody of years before. When
you see that, that's that's what changes you. You the caregiver,
that's what changes you. But you raised the point when
(11:52):
you were talking about the dealers, and I do want
to make it clear that people that are dealing drugs
as a business don't go to drug courts. Okay, drug courts. Now,
I'm not saying that somebody who deals drugs could get
into a drug court if they're compulsively addicted and they're
basically dealing is the only way to get drugs to
(12:12):
feed their habit. But if somebody is a drug dealer,
like that's their business, they're not coming into a drug court.
That's an exclusion criteria. They're going hopefully to prison.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, and very seldom do they actually use the drugs
to that kind of level. They they're not stupid, you know,
they use the stupid and the addicted to do their
duty work for them.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Well, there are two kinds of dealers. There's the dealers exactly,
the dealers that are in charge. They are what you
just described, you know, they they don't they know how
to avoid their own product, or they use it you
know different, you know, very differently. And you know, but
there you would be very hard pressed to find somebody
with an addiction who didn't also sell as a way
(12:59):
to because they have no other way to make money.
And so some of these people are selling just to
support their habit. Yeah, and so those people, if that's
what's going on, the person's just selling as a way
to you know, I buy one hundred dollars worth, I
keep some for myself. I sell the other at a
profit so I have more money so that I can
keep my own addiction going. Those people can sometimes get
(13:20):
into treatment courts as long as they have that serious addiction.
They're not in it as a business, no, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So what will be the message that you're giving to
our attends at the conference tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Well, so, you know, getting these kinds of programs to
get the kind of funding and public support and political
support they need is a constant challenge, and we need
to get the word out. And so I've been asked
to essentially do three things tomorrow. First, prove that these
programs work. What does the research say? Show us the
(13:57):
research prove it. Okay, give us the citations. Tell us
how much can we expect them to reduce crime? How
much can we expect them to reduce overdose steps? You know,
how much money are they going to save us by prison,
you know, by avoiding prison sentences? Show us that information, So.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Just go one minute for the last two points. Sorry, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And then who do they work for? Which is what
you and I were just talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
And then third, how to do them right. Because these
programs are not simple. You have to learn how to
do them right. And so teaching people the basic skills,
this is how you run your drug court, the right
way to be successful. That's it.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Fantastic. Thank you so much for those insights. I really
appreciate it. Dr tug Malo, leading researcher, an educator and
drug court policy What an outstanding interview in an amazing
process to help people recover from addiction. Let's have that here,
says Tony.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.