July 16, 2025 • 10 mins
The Education Minister's stressing schools can still be flexible as the Government pulls the plug on open plan classrooms.
It was introduced by John Key's Government in 2011.
Erica Stanford announced yesterday all new builds will now have more traditional layouts.
She told Kerre Woodham there are good examples in the best modern learning environments.
She’s also looking into helping fund schools to modify existing open-plan rooms.
Stanford told Woodham she's tasking the school property agency to look into ways to help schools revert their teaching spaces.
In the meantime, she says, schools have five year property budgets, with a category for classroom modifications they can use.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry Wood and Morning's podcast from
News TALKS'DB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
As we've been discussing education. Minister Erica Stanford's announced all
new classes will have standardized design, abandoning the challenges of
open plan spaces. The minister joins me, now, good morning
to you, minister.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning, how are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you? I liked the idea that you stressed flexibility
in your announcement, so that we're not going back to
those single cell prefabs stand alone away from everybody. There
can be single cells, but if they want to collaborate,
they can. Is that the message that.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Is best practice? I mean, if you go into some
of the really good modern learning environments today, it is
a sort of a long corridor, but they all have
glass walls and sliding doors, so you have single cell
classrooms and if they need to collaborate because all the
kids are going to do an art project together or
something's happening, they can open up those doors and have
a collaborative space. But more importantly, it's that sort of
(01:03):
sense of connection to the school. Teachers can see each other.
If there's a new teacher in their first couple of years,
you know, they've got an experienced teacher right next door
that they can see. And those are really the best
sort of best practice classrooms and the thing that we
want to be building into the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Did the demand for change come from parents or teachers?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Look a bit of both. And I do want to
stress that there are still many schools who have modern
learning environments and they are still using them, and they
do it to the very best of their ability, even
their teachers professional learning and development. They've got acoustic panels
on the walls. They've got children learning at different levels,
so some are sitting on the floor, some sitting at tables,
some on higher bench tables to disperse the noise. And look,
(01:45):
they will continue to do a good job, but the
overwhelming feedback from parents and from teachers who use those
spaces is that it's not working for their children. And
if you think about children who've got auditory processing issues
or on the neurodiversity spectrum or actually the case. Sorry
to say it, but just boar is in general, because
I've got one and I know that it would be
(02:06):
darable for him. Yeah, just that, you know, and children
who are behind they you know, they really need to
have a teacher who is in a smaller space closed
off that is able to identify when there are children
who need additional help. And when you've got you know,
sixty children or ninety children in a space, you know,
it's easier to get to get lost. And look the
(02:27):
same with a gifted children as well, who need extending,
who we expect to be extended. So it's been really
well received.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So is there anything wrong with it? Because I remember
in the last government teachers and principles complaining that they
needed a new classroom but were told they had to
have open plan or they wouldn't get the money at all.
Is there anything wrong with giving a school who needs
a new classroom the funds and then they commission what
suits their school best.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, it's an interesting idea, and that's actually what has
been happening. In a way. There will be a range
of different things that have happened with the Ministry property.
And I know that there are many issues with Ministry property,
and I've got an announcement later this week about the
future of Ministry property on Friday. But you know, you
will often get a school and look, there were many
(03:16):
schools who made the decision they wanted open plan and
they wanted the barnyard style classrooms and it wasn't forced
upon them. They wanted it, and they went for it
because it looks like the new thing. And then you
get a new principle and things change, and now you've
got schools saying, look, we don't like these classrooms. And
so I think there does need to be some standard
(03:36):
designs and some good proper guidance from the Ministry. Will
their look their way may well be a case whereas
school says we need this style of classroom for these
particular reasons, and of course we will always listen and
listen if there are extenuating circumstances. But the Ministry plans
from here on and will be those more flexible learning spaces.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Will you be paying or will the government be paying
to revert classrooms if schools need them to be reverted.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
But that's one of the things I'm going to tell
the future of the School Property Agency with. But in
the meantime, schools do have property budgets, so they've got
five year budgets and within those there is a category
for classroom modifications, so they can use their budgets. They
(04:24):
may have more pressing things they need to do if
they've got classrooms that are in a real state of
disrepair that they need to maintenance on. So, but it's
something I'm going to task the future of the school
property entitay with.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You mentioned that, you know, our teacher comes along or
a principle and thinks it's the new thing, having a
modern learning environment. But those with long memories can go
back to the seventies and say it didn't work. Then,
it didn't work in the eighties, it didn't work in
twenty eleven. How many times does something have to fail
before it disappears altogether.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, that's an excellent question because I made the same
point when someone said this was John Key's idea in
twenty eleven, I said, well, no, it wasn't. I was
in a when I started school in nineteen eighty three,
which dates me a little bit. I was in an
open plan barnyard classroom, but with three classes. I remember
my mum saying there were ninety children and we were
new entrants and an open plan classroom. And so it's
(05:16):
something that has come around, and so I will do
my best to make sure we put all the research
and evidence in one place and make a very clear
decision based on this evidence, and it's in the history
books and hopefully not to be undone.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You have started off in your portfolio with an absolute
hiss and a roar, you know, with changes to the curriculum.
Fantastic by the way I'm seeing them. I'm seeing the
results already with the small kids in our household, with
the changes to the classrooms. These are really important changes
that our kids need to have any chance of leaving
(05:53):
one world and going to the next. You know, if
they don't like where they were born into, they with
an education, they have options and choices. What more can
we expect from you? What more have you got up
your sleeve?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There is more to come. We'd spent a lot of
time and opposition thinking about what are the key levers
of change, And there are my six priority yere is
its curriculum teaching practice, so structured literacy, structured maths is
that you know, the year year knowledge rich curriculum. There's
the learning support which we have in our budget this
year three quarters of a billion dollars supporting our teachers,
(06:28):
data and evidence. So there are those key levers we've pulled.
But you'll notice that we've pulled them in primary and intermedia.
You start there first. You start right from year one
with our structured literacy and all those things. The next
part is the release of the curriculum that goes all
the way up to year thirteen. So we're furiously writing
(06:49):
those at the moment with international experts and local experts
and making sure that it's internationally comparable and knowledge rich,
and there are going to be some announcements, some big
announcements coming in the next few weeks around secondary as well.
So that's the next part as we phase our way up,
and we're going to have some amazing opportunities. At the moment,
we have been sliding down the scales of the international reading, writing,
(07:13):
and math scales, and so we are playing huge catch up.
We're just trying to get our fourteen and fifteen year
olds to pass their literacy and numeracy correcquisites for NCAA
that is based on a level that you should be
able to pass at the end of intermediate. That is
the state of play right now. But as we work
through this explicit teaching science of learning knowledge rich curriculum,
(07:35):
we all have kids who are at curriculum by the
time they go to high school. And then we have
opportunities for amazing new curriculum areas. Where you look at
other countries, they've got advanced maths curriculum areas. We don't
because we're struggling to get our kids just to exactly.
So we are going to have some really amazing opportunities
(07:56):
and I want to make sure that we grasp those.
And you know there was a report out last year
about NCAA, so you know there will be decisions to
be made about nca So there's a number of things
that are coming in the next few weeks that are
going to be quite big.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And last question, what do you think the odds are
that you may well be the first education minister from
a national party that gets the support of the teachers unions.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Not something I've thought about. Look, I might not get
their support. All I want, all I really want is
the respect of the teachers. Might want them to know
that every single thing I'm doing is for them, is
to support them. The only thing that makes a difference
in raising educational attainment or the main thing, is the
quality of the teacher in front of the student. And
that's why when I was in opposition, I said we
(08:46):
are going to be shifting back end resources to the
front end to support our teachers. We have put in
world leading professional learning and development into our teachers. We've
trained tens of thousands of teachers and structured literacy, structured
maths and science of learning. We've flooded in eight hundred
and fifty thousand maths books this year into primary and
intermediates all of the structured literacy resources. We're about to
(09:09):
launch our twice yearly assessment tool for next year so
parents know how their students are progressing and teachers can
understand where kids are at to understand next steps and learning.
It's all about supporting our teachers on the front line.
And I'll tell you what I couldn't. It's all very
well for me to have all of these policies and
plans and budgets. Unless the teachers and principles on the
(09:29):
ground are implementing it, nothing changes. And man they are.
You have no idea what's happening out their own classrooms.
Teachers are putting in an extraordinary effort to implement these
reforms and they're doing an incredible job. You walk into
classrooms today compared to a year ago, you see explicit
teaching happening. You see children learning to read using phonics,
(09:51):
you see them using a structured, explicit approach to mathematics
compared to a year ago. It is a complete turnaround
and I owe a huge debt of gratitude to the
teachers who are doing that on the ground. They're doing
an amazing job. And I'll tell you the last thing
I'll say is that the world is watching. I've been
approached by so many countries who are trying to turn
around their results, who are coming to us to say
(10:13):
what you are doing is world leading. We can see
what's happening in your classrooms. You know, how did you
mandate structured literacy. We were the first country in the
world to mandate structured literacy across the whole country. So
we are being watched and we are the envy of
the world at the moment, and I'm just I couldn't
be prouder of our teachers.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Thank you so much for your time, Minister of Education,
Erica Stanford.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the carry Wood and Morning's podcast from
News TALKS'DB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
As we've been discussing education. Minister Erica Stanford's announced all
new classes will have standardized design, abandoning the challenges of
open plan spaces. The minister joins me, now, good morning
to you, minister.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning, how are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you? I liked the idea that you stressed flexibility
in your announcement, so that we're not going back to
those single cell prefabs stand alone away from everybody. There
can be single cells, but if they want to collaborate,
they can. Is that the message that.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Is best practice? I mean, if you go into some
of the really good modern learning environments today, it is
a sort of a long corridor, but they all have
glass walls and sliding doors, so you have single cell
classrooms and if they need to collaborate because all the
kids are going to do an art project together or
something's happening, they can open up those doors and have
a collaborative space. But more importantly, it's that sort of
(01:03):
sense of connection to the school. Teachers can see each other.
If there's a new teacher in their first couple of years,
you know, they've got an experienced teacher right next door
that they can see. And those are really the best
sort of best practice classrooms and the thing that we
want to be building into the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Did the demand for change come from parents or teachers?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Look a bit of both. And I do want to
stress that there are still many schools who have modern
learning environments and they are still using them, and they
do it to the very best of their ability, even
their teachers professional learning and development. They've got acoustic panels
on the walls. They've got children learning at different levels,
so some are sitting on the floor, some sitting at tables,
some on higher bench tables to disperse the noise. And look,
(01:45):
they will continue to do a good job, but the
overwhelming feedback from parents and from teachers who use those
spaces is that it's not working for their children. And
if you think about children who've got auditory processing issues
or on the neurodiversity spectrum or actually the case. Sorry
to say it, but just boar is in general, because
I've got one and I know that it would be
(02:06):
darable for him. Yeah, just that, you know, and children
who are behind they you know, they really need to
have a teacher who is in a smaller space closed
off that is able to identify when there are children
who need additional help. And when you've got you know,
sixty children or ninety children in a space, you know,
it's easier to get to get lost. And look the
(02:27):
same with a gifted children as well, who need extending,
who we expect to be extended. So it's been really
well received.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So is there anything wrong with it? Because I remember
in the last government teachers and principles complaining that they
needed a new classroom but were told they had to
have open plan or they wouldn't get the money at all.
Is there anything wrong with giving a school who needs
a new classroom the funds and then they commission what
suits their school best.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, it's an interesting idea, and that's actually what has
been happening. In a way. There will be a range
of different things that have happened with the Ministry property.
And I know that there are many issues with Ministry property,
and I've got an announcement later this week about the
future of Ministry property on Friday. But you know, you
will often get a school and look, there were many
(03:16):
schools who made the decision they wanted open plan and
they wanted the barnyard style classrooms and it wasn't forced
upon them. They wanted it, and they went for it
because it looks like the new thing. And then you
get a new principle and things change, and now you've
got schools saying, look, we don't like these classrooms. And
so I think there does need to be some standard
(03:36):
designs and some good proper guidance from the Ministry. Will
their look their way may well be a case whereas
school says we need this style of classroom for these
particular reasons, and of course we will always listen and
listen if there are extenuating circumstances. But the Ministry plans
from here on and will be those more flexible learning spaces.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Will you be paying or will the government be paying
to revert classrooms if schools need them to be reverted.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
But that's one of the things I'm going to tell
the future of the School Property Agency with. But in
the meantime, schools do have property budgets, so they've got
five year budgets and within those there is a category
for classroom modifications, so they can use their budgets. They
(04:24):
may have more pressing things they need to do if
they've got classrooms that are in a real state of
disrepair that they need to maintenance on. So, but it's
something I'm going to task the future of the school
property entitay with.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You mentioned that, you know, our teacher comes along or
a principle and thinks it's the new thing, having a
modern learning environment. But those with long memories can go
back to the seventies and say it didn't work. Then,
it didn't work in the eighties, it didn't work in
twenty eleven. How many times does something have to fail
before it disappears altogether.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well, that's an excellent question because I made the same
point when someone said this was John Key's idea in
twenty eleven, I said, well, no, it wasn't. I was
in a when I started school in nineteen eighty three,
which dates me a little bit. I was in an
open plan barnyard classroom, but with three classes. I remember
my mum saying there were ninety children and we were
new entrants and an open plan classroom. And so it's
(05:16):
something that has come around, and so I will do
my best to make sure we put all the research
and evidence in one place and make a very clear
decision based on this evidence, and it's in the history
books and hopefully not to be undone.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You have started off in your portfolio with an absolute
hiss and a roar, you know, with changes to the curriculum.
Fantastic by the way I'm seeing them. I'm seeing the
results already with the small kids in our household, with
the changes to the classrooms. These are really important changes
that our kids need to have any chance of leaving
(05:53):
one world and going to the next. You know, if
they don't like where they were born into, they with
an education, they have options and choices. What more can
we expect from you? What more have you got up
your sleeve?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There is more to come. We'd spent a lot of
time and opposition thinking about what are the key levers
of change, And there are my six priority yere is
its curriculum teaching practice, so structured literacy, structured maths is
that you know, the year year knowledge rich curriculum. There's
the learning support which we have in our budget this
year three quarters of a billion dollars supporting our teachers,
(06:28):
data and evidence. So there are those key levers we've pulled.
But you'll notice that we've pulled them in primary and intermedia.
You start there first. You start right from year one
with our structured literacy and all those things. The next
part is the release of the curriculum that goes all
the way up to year thirteen. So we're furiously writing
(06:49):
those at the moment with international experts and local experts
and making sure that it's internationally comparable and knowledge rich,
and there are going to be some announcements, some big
announcements coming in the next few weeks around secondary as well.
So that's the next part as we phase our way up,
and we're going to have some amazing opportunities. At the moment,
we have been sliding down the scales of the international reading, writing,
(07:13):
and math scales, and so we are playing huge catch up.
We're just trying to get our fourteen and fifteen year
olds to pass their literacy and numeracy correcquisites for NCAA
that is based on a level that you should be
able to pass at the end of intermediate. That is
the state of play right now. But as we work
through this explicit teaching science of learning knowledge rich curriculum,
(07:35):
we all have kids who are at curriculum by the
time they go to high school. And then we have
opportunities for amazing new curriculum areas. Where you look at
other countries, they've got advanced maths curriculum areas. We don't
because we're struggling to get our kids just to exactly.
So we are going to have some really amazing opportunities
(07:56):
and I want to make sure that we grasp those.
And you know there was a report out last year
about NCAA, so you know there will be decisions to
be made about nca So there's a number of things
that are coming in the next few weeks that are
going to be quite big.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And last question, what do you think the odds are
that you may well be the first education minister from
a national party that gets the support of the teachers unions.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Not something I've thought about. Look, I might not get
their support. All I want, all I really want is
the respect of the teachers. Might want them to know
that every single thing I'm doing is for them, is
to support them. The only thing that makes a difference
in raising educational attainment or the main thing, is the
quality of the teacher in front of the student. And
that's why when I was in opposition, I said we
(08:46):
are going to be shifting back end resources to the
front end to support our teachers. We have put in
world leading professional learning and development into our teachers. We've
trained tens of thousands of teachers and structured literacy, structured
maths and science of learning. We've flooded in eight hundred
and fifty thousand maths books this year into primary and
intermediates all of the structured literacy resources. We're about to
(09:09):
launch our twice yearly assessment tool for next year so
parents know how their students are progressing and teachers can
understand where kids are at to understand next steps and learning.
It's all about supporting our teachers on the front line.
And I'll tell you what I couldn't. It's all very
well for me to have all of these policies and
plans and budgets. Unless the teachers and principles on the
(09:29):
ground are implementing it, nothing changes. And man they are.
You have no idea what's happening out their own classrooms.
Teachers are putting in an extraordinary effort to implement these
reforms and they're doing an incredible job. You walk into
classrooms today compared to a year ago, you see explicit
teaching happening. You see children learning to read using phonics,
(09:51):
you see them using a structured, explicit approach to mathematics
compared to a year ago. It is a complete turnaround
and I owe a huge debt of gratitude to the
teachers who are doing that on the ground. They're doing
an amazing job. And I'll tell you the last thing
I'll say is that the world is watching. I've been
approached by so many countries who are trying to turn
around their results, who are coming to us to say
(10:13):
what you are doing is world leading. We can see
what's happening in your classrooms. You know, how did you
mandate structured literacy. We were the first country in the
world to mandate structured literacy across the whole country. So
we are being watched and we are the envy of
the world at the moment, and I'm just I couldn't
be prouder of our teachers.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Thank you so much for your time, Minister of Education,
Erica Stanford.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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