When the Government unveiled it's maths action plan in August last year, we spoke to Distinguished Maths Professor Gaven Martin.
Widely regarded as New Zealand's leading mathematician, Gaven gave the new plan better odds of working than curriculum under the previous Government.
Now, more than 40 maths educators and researchers have written an open letter calling on the Ministry of Education and Erica Stanford to pause the latest curriculum rollout immediately.
They are questioning why the maths curriculum has been re-written for the third time in three years, saying they were “deeply concerned” by both the changes themselves and the process used for its development.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be when the government unveiled its Math's Action Plan,
and in August of last year, we spoke to distinguished
maths professor Gavin Martin, widely regarded as New Zealand's leading mathematician.
Gavin gave the new plan better odds working than the
curriculum under the previous Labor government.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, I think better than fifty thirsty. Yeah, yeah, I
think it's differently. I saw what was going to happen
before we had these parliamentary change and the new direction
set in the education portfolio, and what I think what
I saw was going to happen I thought was absolutely diabolical.
(00:54):
So you know, this is light years ahead of what
Hopkins was saying about their plans. So I saw those
plans and I was just pretty angry.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I remember that. Remember when Labor was putting out the
new curriculum and you had scientists mathematicians going, are you
freaking kidding me? This is not a curriculum again, it's
thought bubble stuff. So in came the coalition government, In
came Erica Stanford, In came brand new curriculum back to
the basics, an hour of maths, an hour of English.
(01:30):
Let's get our kids in education. And there's been deep resistance.
More than forty maths educations, eight educators and researchers have
written an open letter calling on the Ministry of Education
and Erica Stanford to pause the latest curriculum roll out immediately.
They're questioning why the maths curriculum has been rewritten for
(01:51):
the third time in three years, saying they were deeply
concerned by both the changes themselves and the process used
for its development. Mass the University Distinguished Maths Professor Gavin
Martin joins me once more, and a very good morning
to you.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Well, it's evening here in New York.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh it is too. You're in Syracuse University.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Aren't you.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, just visiting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh fantastic. What is a working holiday?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
There's no such thing as a holiday. Of course I'm working.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, nice to be doing it in a different environment.
I thought when we last spoke that we'd kind of
put the curriculum changes to bed, that common sense had prevailed,
Science and maths had prevailed, and that's what our kids
would be learning. Where is the resistance coming from?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Do you think well, okay, just for the benefit of
your listeners, and maybe for my own benefit too, I
think that we've got to be careful about the words
we use.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
I mean, you know, five years ago, before I started
thinking about this stuff and doing that raw Society report,
I thought curriculum was just the content. Basically, what is
going to be taught. You know, there's going to be
some trigonometry, there's going to be some algebra. People got
to know the multiplication tables. And I think that's what
a lot of people think what the curriculum is.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
But it's not just that too. Professionals in mathematics education
and educationalists in general. The curriculum is not only what
has got to be taught, but how it's got to
be taught. So the pedagogical methodologies, whether you have direct
instruction ie a teacher talking to a class, whether you
(03:34):
have small group instruction breaking it down, whether you have
open learning, clothes learning, flips learning, all these sorts of things.
So there's a whole lot of stuff going on in
the background, and a lot of that pedagogical stuff is
actually philosophical and intense. So I think that is sort
(03:56):
of where the resistance is coming from. But also the
curriculum engages with how learning is assessed and where and
what the feedback processes are. So if you just say
the curriculum and you just think it's the content, then
you know, I don't think you really understand where the
(04:19):
arguments are coming from. And I have to say at
this point, I'm a big fan of what Erica Stanford
has done. She has led from the front and I
changed what we have to learn and suggested how we
have to learn it, and I think that those are
all being very sensible things.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
That was followed up just a couple of months ago
with announcements about you know, advanced math courses, advanced engineering,
rocketing and those sorts of things, which I think are
really great things to inspire kids, especially good kids, because
I think, you know, not only do we have the
problem with you know, the lower tiers falling further and
(05:02):
further behind, but the upper tears just get getting bored
and not succeeding as well as they might. And both
of those things are big problems for countries, I think,
not just the lower end, but also at the upper end.
I mean, you know, you're missing a lot of opportunities.
Those are the people who might might go on to,
(05:24):
you know, do great things. I bet Peter Beck wasn't
at the bottom of his class, is needing support, right, yeah, exactly,
both ends. And now I think the problem is with
sort of pedagogical approaches. And you know, I think that
they're clear statements from from people like Erica that the
(05:51):
curriculum will be informed by the science of learning the
things we understand. And now if you want to criticize that,
you call it rote learning, right, rote learning.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
But you know who says that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, exactly, I can still do my twelve times table
from having learned it in primary school.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah right.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
But you know, as I said before, what do the
all Blacks practice when they go out on the field
for the first time, the super fancy tricks or do
they go out and practice passing to one another? You know,
it's passing. Those are the best people in the world
at what they do, and they're practicing the basics.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, it's like that in.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Virtually every walk of life before you know, I mean,
no one gives you a guitar and you pick it
up and you start playing perfectly, right, it never works.
Maybe if you put the effort in you can learn yourself,
but the easiest way is for someone to teach you
about chords, someone to teach you about music, someone to
(06:56):
teach you how to read and do these things, and then.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Practice, practice, practice, practice.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
No one seems to think that learning and instrument like
the piano is going to be made easier because you
get in a small group and set at a piano
and you discover how to play it together. You know,
it's it's it's this basic learning stuff that's that's got
to go on.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
So I think that there is.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Sorry, I'm just looking at the forty maths educations, educators
and researchers have written the open letter saying, stop, what
on earth do they want for the children of this country?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Well, that's a.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Good question, but I think that they are philosophically opposed
to some of the directions that are going on. And
you know, I think an argument can be made, like
I personally am not fabulously happy that we do have
a curriculum rewrite from a year ago and now another
(07:56):
year and I think that that, you know, is not
great management there. But you know, you don't expect Erica
to sit down and write out the friggin thing telling
how teachers how to teach this bat or the other
that has to come out of the ministry, And I
think what's happening there There might be some political missim
(08:19):
alignment between various groups and so that can cause friction.
And you know, there are real experts in New Zealand
who really do know this curriculum stuff in and out,
and I think people like Audrey Tan and Fiona are
excellent people in that and they should be consulted and
(08:43):
they have been, and I think we got to a
good placed. But then most recently, I think what's happened
is that we've got this new English curriculum.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah, and that is.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Structured differently to the mathematics curriculum. And I think that
what has gone on in the ministry is that it
wants consistency across the presentation by the teachers to the
students about the structure of the learning. And you know,
(09:16):
that sort of makes sense. But on the other side
of the coin, where is it written in the Bible
that you should teach mathematics like you teach English.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But you don't. I can remember being taught English and
maths quite differently.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Yeah. Well, but the recent changes are to try and
align those things. So well, maybe maybe not. I mean
there's a debate to be had there, but we.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Haven't really got the time for more debate because our kids,
who many of whom had education was their last chance
of achieving anything in life. You know, even at the
age of six or seven, they could see their lives
being predetermined if education didn't save them. And we haven't
really got time to debate it any further because we've
lost a whole cohort of kids.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
Absolutely, but even further, I would say that you know,
things like n c EA, I mean, we're getting straying
away from the curriculum now, but in CEA that really
need to be kicked out the door for what was happening.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I mean, you know, we.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Had these long and convoluted paths that led kids along
this road to nowhere. They go through all the NCAA
system being told they're succeeding at every step, and at
the end of the day, well, you know, you face
the real world and you find you've got nothing, and
so that just had to go. And so I'm pretty
(10:43):
pleased that those things have been pulled back. So I
think we're moving pretty much in the right direction. I
think there are possibly some issues with you know, we
have we have a curriculum, we take a change, and
then we make another change, and I think that puts
pressure on the system because you know, teachers will spend
(11:05):
so much time learning the new pedagogical approaches, which are
going to have more you know, stand up lessons, teachers
in front of a class, actually presenting material to the
children and groups trying to keep everyone going along at
a reasonable pace because what was previously happening is a
(11:25):
lot of this fracturing of classes into small groups, and
so the whole class only moves at the pace of
the slowest group, and that is that is not great
in any any situation at all. So I understand where
where these guys are coming from. I have not seen
the letter myself, but I presume it's more about the
(11:50):
pedagological pedagogical approaches and some you know, Okay, Kerrie, if
I say to you, up, we're going to focus on
students centered learning, and you're going to say, wow, that's
pretty good, that sounds really great.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think that education should be about the.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Individual students' needs and what they can do and what
they can achieve. Only move at the pace that they
can go at. Sounds like a brilliant idea. Yeah, except
if you're a teacher and you walk into a classroom
and it's got twenty two different centers, how do you
get on with that?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, you always speak so much sense. I do so
enjoy talking to you, and I just hope that the
Royal Society and your recommendations prevail. Messi University's Distinguished Professor
of Mathematics, Kevin Martin, part of the Royal Society Report.
One of the authors of the Royal Society Report into
(12:50):
the Shocking state of maths as it was and part
of the changes that have been made, and thank God
for people like Come
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks there'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be when the government unveiled its Math's Action Plan,
and in August of last year, we spoke to distinguished
maths professor Gavin Martin, widely regarded as New Zealand's leading mathematician.
Gavin gave the new plan better odds working than the
curriculum under the previous Labor government.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, I think better than fifty thirsty. Yeah, yeah, I
think it's differently. I saw what was going to happen
before we had these parliamentary change and the new direction
set in the education portfolio, and what I think what
I saw was going to happen I thought was absolutely diabolical.
(00:54):
So you know, this is light years ahead of what
Hopkins was saying about their plans. So I saw those
plans and I was just pretty angry.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I remember that. Remember when Labor was putting out the
new curriculum and you had scientists mathematicians going, are you
freaking kidding me? This is not a curriculum again, it's
thought bubble stuff. So in came the coalition government, In
came Erica Stanford, In came brand new curriculum back to
the basics, an hour of maths, an hour of English.
(01:30):
Let's get our kids in education. And there's been deep resistance.
More than forty maths educations, eight educators and researchers have
written an open letter calling on the Ministry of Education
and Erica Stanford to pause the latest curriculum roll out immediately.
They're questioning why the maths curriculum has been rewritten for
(01:51):
the third time in three years, saying they were deeply
concerned by both the changes themselves and the process used
for its development. Mass the University Distinguished Maths Professor Gavin
Martin joins me once more, and a very good morning
to you.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Well, it's evening here in New York.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh it is too. You're in Syracuse University.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Aren't you.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, just visiting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh fantastic. What is a working holiday?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
There's no such thing as a holiday. Of course I'm working.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, nice to be doing it in a different environment.
I thought when we last spoke that we'd kind of
put the curriculum changes to bed, that common sense had prevailed,
Science and maths had prevailed, and that's what our kids
would be learning. Where is the resistance coming from?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Do you think well, okay, just for the benefit of
your listeners, and maybe for my own benefit too, I
think that we've got to be careful about the words
we use.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
I mean, you know, five years ago, before I started
thinking about this stuff and doing that raw Society report,
I thought curriculum was just the content. Basically, what is
going to be taught. You know, there's going to be
some trigonometry, there's going to be some algebra. People got
to know the multiplication tables. And I think that's what
a lot of people think what the curriculum is.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
But it's not just that too. Professionals in mathematics education
and educationalists in general. The curriculum is not only what
has got to be taught, but how it's got to
be taught. So the pedagogical methodologies, whether you have direct
instruction ie a teacher talking to a class, whether you
(03:34):
have small group instruction breaking it down, whether you have
open learning, clothes learning, flips learning, all these sorts of things.
So there's a whole lot of stuff going on in
the background, and a lot of that pedagogical stuff is
actually philosophical and intense. So I think that is sort
(03:56):
of where the resistance is coming from. But also the
curriculum engages with how learning is assessed and where and
what the feedback processes are. So if you just say
the curriculum and you just think it's the content, then
you know, I don't think you really understand where the
(04:19):
arguments are coming from. And I have to say at
this point, I'm a big fan of what Erica Stanford
has done. She has led from the front and I
changed what we have to learn and suggested how we
have to learn it, and I think that those are
all being very sensible things.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
That was followed up just a couple of months ago
with announcements about you know, advanced math courses, advanced engineering,
rocketing and those sorts of things, which I think are
really great things to inspire kids, especially good kids, because
I think, you know, not only do we have the
problem with you know, the lower tiers falling further and
(05:02):
further behind, but the upper tears just get getting bored
and not succeeding as well as they might. And both
of those things are big problems for countries, I think,
not just the lower end, but also at the upper end.
I mean, you know, you're missing a lot of opportunities.
Those are the people who might might go on to,
(05:24):
you know, do great things. I bet Peter Beck wasn't
at the bottom of his class, is needing support, right, yeah, exactly,
both ends. And now I think the problem is with
sort of pedagogical approaches. And you know, I think that
they're clear statements from from people like Erica that the
(05:51):
curriculum will be informed by the science of learning the
things we understand. And now if you want to criticize that,
you call it rote learning, right, rote learning.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
But you know who says that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, exactly, I can still do my twelve times table
from having learned it in primary school.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah right.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
But you know, as I said before, what do the
all Blacks practice when they go out on the field
for the first time, the super fancy tricks or do
they go out and practice passing to one another? You know,
it's passing. Those are the best people in the world
at what they do, and they're practicing the basics.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, it's like that in.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Virtually every walk of life before you know, I mean,
no one gives you a guitar and you pick it
up and you start playing perfectly, right, it never works.
Maybe if you put the effort in you can learn yourself,
but the easiest way is for someone to teach you
about chords, someone to teach you about music, someone to
(06:56):
teach you how to read and do these things, and then.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Practice, practice, practice, practice.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
No one seems to think that learning and instrument like
the piano is going to be made easier because you
get in a small group and set at a piano
and you discover how to play it together. You know,
it's it's it's this basic learning stuff that's that's got
to go on.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
So I think that there is.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Sorry, I'm just looking at the forty maths educations, educators
and researchers have written the open letter saying, stop, what
on earth do they want for the children of this country?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Well, that's a.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Good question, but I think that they are philosophically opposed
to some of the directions that are going on. And
you know, I think an argument can be made, like
I personally am not fabulously happy that we do have
a curriculum rewrite from a year ago and now another
(07:56):
year and I think that that, you know, is not
great management there. But you know, you don't expect Erica
to sit down and write out the friggin thing telling
how teachers how to teach this bat or the other
that has to come out of the ministry, And I
think what's happening there There might be some political missim
(08:19):
alignment between various groups and so that can cause friction.
And you know, there are real experts in New Zealand
who really do know this curriculum stuff in and out,
and I think people like Audrey Tan and Fiona are
excellent people in that and they should be consulted and
(08:43):
they have been, and I think we got to a
good placed. But then most recently, I think what's happened
is that we've got this new English curriculum.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah, and that is.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Structured differently to the mathematics curriculum. And I think that
what has gone on in the ministry is that it
wants consistency across the presentation by the teachers to the
students about the structure of the learning. And you know,
(09:16):
that sort of makes sense. But on the other side
of the coin, where is it written in the Bible
that you should teach mathematics like you teach English.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But you don't. I can remember being taught English and
maths quite differently.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Yeah. Well, but the recent changes are to try and
align those things. So well, maybe maybe not. I mean
there's a debate to be had there, but we.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Haven't really got the time for more debate because our kids,
who many of whom had education was their last chance
of achieving anything in life. You know, even at the
age of six or seven, they could see their lives
being predetermined if education didn't save them. And we haven't
really got time to debate it any further because we've
lost a whole cohort of kids.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
Absolutely, but even further, I would say that you know,
things like n c EA, I mean, we're getting straying
away from the curriculum now, but in CEA that really
need to be kicked out the door for what was happening.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I mean, you know, we.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Had these long and convoluted paths that led kids along
this road to nowhere. They go through all the NCAA
system being told they're succeeding at every step, and at
the end of the day, well, you know, you face
the real world and you find you've got nothing, and
so that just had to go. And so I'm pretty
(10:43):
pleased that those things have been pulled back. So I
think we're moving pretty much in the right direction. I
think there are possibly some issues with you know, we
have we have a curriculum, we take a change, and
then we make another change, and I think that puts
pressure on the system because you know, teachers will spend
(11:05):
so much time learning the new pedagogical approaches, which are
going to have more you know, stand up lessons, teachers
in front of a class, actually presenting material to the
children and groups trying to keep everyone going along at
a reasonable pace because what was previously happening is a
(11:25):
lot of this fracturing of classes into small groups, and
so the whole class only moves at the pace of
the slowest group, and that is that is not great
in any any situation at all. So I understand where
where these guys are coming from. I have not seen
the letter myself, but I presume it's more about the
(11:50):
pedagological pedagogical approaches and some you know, Okay, Kerrie, if
I say to you, up, we're going to focus on
students centered learning, and you're going to say, wow, that's
pretty good, that sounds really great.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I think that education should be about the.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Individual students' needs and what they can do and what
they can achieve. Only move at the pace that they
can go at. Sounds like a brilliant idea. Yeah, except
if you're a teacher and you walk into a classroom
and it's got twenty two different centers, how do you
get on with that?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, you always speak so much sense. I do so
enjoy talking to you, and I just hope that the
Royal Society and your recommendations prevail. Messi University's Distinguished Professor
of Mathematics, Kevin Martin, part of the Royal Society Report.
One of the authors of the Royal Society Report into
(12:50):
the Shocking state of maths as it was and part
of the changes that have been made, and thank God
for people like Come
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks there'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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