John MacDonald: Here's where I'm torn on gender identity

There’s a chance you'll think I sound like I’m contradicting myself with my views on NZ First jumping on the gender identity bandwagon.    

Politicians love a good bandwagon and that’s what NZ First is riding with its members’ bill to legally clarify the definitions of man and woman.  

I say they’re riding a bandwagon because it comes on the heels of the Supreme Court in Britain doing pretty much the exact same thing last week. It ruled that it all comes down to a person’s biology, and that’s NZ First’s thinking as well.  

I’m not so black and white. But first, let me say that, of all the things New Zealand is dealing with at the moment, this plan by NZ First is not a priority. We don’t need this.   

Yes, some people think the transgender community is leading us to hell in a handbasket. That’s why NZ First is saying things like its members’ bill being all about fighting “cancerous social engineering and woke ideology”.  

But I think only a minority of people feel as strongly about it as that language suggests.  

And will it do anything to get the economy sorted? No it won’t. Will it get kids out of poverty? No it won’t. Will it reduce power prices? Not it won’t. Will it get more life-saving drugs for people? Nope. See what I mean?  

But, aside from thinking that NZ First is barking up the wrong tree or barking at a passing car, and that we don’t desperately need this clarification, my overall view is that inclusion is way better than exclusion.   

What I mean by that is however we might feel about someone being transgender —however comfortable or uncomfortable we are about it— does how we feel really matter? I don’t think it does.  

What does matter is that someone who, for whatever reason, feels so uncomfortable in their own skin —or who feels alien in their own skin, in terms of gender— then why shouldn’t they be free to do something about that?  

Well, they should be free. And, by being free, they should also enjoy the same privileges and freedoms as everybody.  

That’s the inclusion versus exclusion part of it.  

But, at the same time, there are parts of this freedoms and privileges bit that I really struggle with, and this is where I’m going to start to contradict myself.  

I’m not saying here that I advocate any sort of antagonism or discrimination or worse towards anyone who lives their life as a transgender person. But I understand why some people aren’t as open to the possibility that not everyone wants to be the person they were when they born.  

And I understand that because I’m not black and white on it myself.   

Yes, I’ll preach inclusion instead of exclusion and I’ll tell people who get wound up about drag queens reading stories to kids that they’re indulging in unnecessary moral panic. But often, the question people ask me if they disagree with me is how I feel about a transgender person using public facilities provided for people of particular genders.   

And —I’ll be totally honest with you— that is my stumbling block.   

But, despite that, I don’t support what NZ First is doing because it doesn’t seek to include, it seeks to exclude. I also don’t support it because I don’t think people are crying out for it.  

But what do you think? 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood of Morning's podcast from News Talks,
he'd be.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
There is a chance, there's a chance that you might
think I sound like I'm contradicting myself today with my
views on New Zealand First, jumping on the gender identity bandwagon. Politicians. Ay,
I love a good bandwagon, aren't they? And that's what
New Zealand First is riding this morning with its members'
bill to legally clarify the definitions of man and woman.

(00:35):
I say they're riding a bandwagon because it comes on
the heels of the Supreme Court in Britain doing pretty
much the exact same thing last week. It ruled you
would have heard about this. It ruled that it all
comes down to a person's biology. And that is New
Zealand First's thinking as well. I'm not so black and white,
and I'll tell you why. First up, let me just

(00:57):
say that of all the things New Zealand is dealing
with at the moment, this plan by New Zealand First
to get a legal definition of what a man and
what a woman is, it's not a priority. We don't
need this. Yes, some people think the transgender community is
leading us to hold on the hand basket. That's one

(01:18):
zealing first to saying things like it's members' bill is
all about fighting quote cancerous social engineering and woke ideology
end of quote. But I think only a minority of
people feel as strongly about it as that language suggests,
and consider this. Will it do anything to get the
economy sorted?

Speaker 1 (01:39):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:39):
It won't. Will it get kids out of poverty?

Speaker 1 (01:43):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:44):
What will it reduce power prices? I won Will it
get more life saving drugs for people?

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Nap?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
See what I mean? But aside from thinking that the
Zealand first is barking up the wrong tree or barking
at another passing car, and that we don't desperately need
this clarification, my overall view is the inclusion is way
better than exclusion. And what I mean by that is,

(02:11):
however we might feel about someone being transgender, however comfortable
or uncomfortable we are about it, does how we feel
really matter? I mean, I mean really matter, And I
don't think it does. I mean what does matter is

(02:31):
that someone who for whatever reason, feels so uncomfortable in
their own skin, or who feels alien in their own
skin in terms of gender and why shouldn't they be
free to do something about that and to live the
way they want. Well, they should be free, and by
being free, they should also enjoy the same privileges and

(02:53):
freedoms as everybody. See. That's the inclusion versus exclusion part
of it. But at the same time, there are parts
of this freedoms and privileges, but that I've just been
banging on about, there are parts that I really struggle with.
Let me be honest with you, ah, And this is

(03:13):
the bit where I'm going to start to contradict myself.
And I'm not saying here that I advocate any sort
of antagonism or discrimination or worse towards anyone who lives
their life as a transgender person, not at all. But
I do understand why some people aren't as open to
the possibility that not everyone wants to be the person

(03:34):
they were when they were born. And I understand that
because I'm not black and white on it myself. I'm
not one way or the other. This is the bit
where I'm torn. I mean, yes, I will preach inclusion
instead of exclusion, and I'll tell people who get wound
up about drag queens writing stories to kids that they're
indulging in unnecessary moral panic. But here's the sticking point. Often,

(03:59):
often the question people ask me if they disagree with
me saying all that, they ask me how I feel
about a trans transgender person using public facilities provided for
people of particular agendas, and I will be totally honest
with you. That is my stumbling block, which is something
Susan Levy from the Speak Up for Women organizations spoke

(04:20):
to Mike about earlier. She was talking about spaces, particularly
for transgender people.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
As a woman's rights organization, it's not really our job
to advocate for those third spaces, but we have been
We've been suggesting to counsels that they implement these sort
of universal changing spaces, which you know, do give people
who aren't comfortable changing in the facility that matches their sex,

(04:46):
you know, somewhere to change that that's safe. So you
know that there are differently, there are ways, there are
ways around it. At the moment, the focus has just
been so much on well, you know, we want to
use women's space, so you know, so I think we
need to sort of roll that back and look at practical,
practical solutions, universal spaces. That's keeping single sex spaces as well.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Even though, but even though I've got that particular stumbling block,
I don't support what New Zealand First is doing because
it doesn't seek to include, it seeks to exclude. I
also don't support it because I don't think people are
crying out for it. It's not going to feed the kids,
not going to fix the economy, not going to make
your power bill cheaper, not going to get the drugs

(05:32):
for you if you're dying of an illness. But tell
me what you think.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
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