Maurice Williamson: Former MP and former diplomat on Trevor Mallard's ousting from Ambassador to Ireland

Former Speaker Trevor Mallard is returning early from Ireland, ending his job as Ambassador. 

Winston Peters has appointed senior foreign affairs staffer Angela Hassan-Sharp as his replacement, saying his behaviour during the anti-mandate occupation at Parliament should've disqualified him from the role. 

Peters says only experienced diplomats, not former politicians, should be posted overseas. 

Former MP and former diplomat Maurice Williamson told Kerre Woodham the idea that politicians should never be appointed as diplomats is too black and white. 

He says that often those with political weight behind their name have advantages regular diplomats don't, such as with former Trade Minister Tim Grosser, who became the Ambassador to Washington. 

However, Williamson says, they do need to be diplomats first and foremost and understand how diplomatic processes and channels work.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywoodham Mornings podcast from News Talks
hed B.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
New Zealand's ambassador to Ireland, Trevor Mallard, is returning home early.
The former Parliamentary Speaker and longtime labor MP was appointed
by the last government and has held the post since
twenty twenty three. Former I mean foreign not former foreign. Well,
he was a former foreign minister, but he's the current
one now too. Foreign Minister Winston Peters says the carnival

(00:34):
is over. He'll be replaced by senior Foreign Affairs staffer
Angela Hassen Sharp. He says only experienced diplomats, not former politicians,
should be posted overseas. Former MP and former diplomat Maurice
Williamson joins me, now, very good morning to you.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning, Kerry.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm just surprised at Winston so long to recall him,
given the bad blood between the two of.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Them, and I think that's probably the surprise of the
century that one I thought wasn't about it. Now the
announces would have been made, but it's taken a.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
While it has, which just shows, doesn't it, that when
you make a political appointment it's not necessarily the best
person for the job. It's a political appointment, so you
can haul people.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Back at will correct And let me say I disagree
with Winston because I think it's too black and white
that you should never, no matter what I think certain
people are, try and be a political We've used ex
prime ministers like Bulger and like Mike Moore, one from
either side, as our ambassador to Washington. I can tell

(01:40):
you that those two, having been prime ministers in New Zealand,
got access into the halls of power in Washington that
an ordinary diplomat whose name wouldn't have even been known
at the time of their appointment would ever be able
to get. So there are specific examples where I think
it works. There are other phenomenal examples of it. That
Tim Grosser was our Minister of Trade for some time

(02:03):
and got to be the ambassador in Washington. I spent
time with him because I was based in Los Angeles,
I'd go over to DC. He had just enormous contacts
within the political Congress and within the Senate and so
on again because of his politicians background. So there is
real advantage in some cases, but I admit that in

(02:25):
most of them, they really have got to be diplomats
first and understand how diplomatic channels and diplomatic processes work.
But I think there is two or three examples. DC's one,
London's the other, and Canberra is the third where we've
been able to get access for using the right people.
We put our net King into Canberra. I thought she

(02:46):
was a fabulous High commissioner and did a great job,
and she's from the other side of the tracks to me.
And what I found interesting is that Winston needs to polyanswer.
Is he appointed Brian Donnelly, one of his New Zealand
first MPs, as the High Commissioner to the Cook Islands
while he was still a member of Parliament.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
That's true. That's true, so they.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Had to find a new person, who even most of
them are after they've retired or have left. But he
appointed Brian Donallly as a High commission of the Cooks
while he was still a member of parliament. That was
back in two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Didn't he have a long career working with the Cooks,
many many contacts within the.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Cook Yes, and in fact many of us thought, what
a fantastic appointment a guy with enormous connections and contacts
see when I was Consul general in Los Angeles, there
was no real politics involved in anything I did there.
It was all to do with business and trade. We
facilitated meetings of New Zealand companies, we hosted, we had

(03:43):
film evenings there where companies trying to ua their products
with directors of the companies would come in and sit
and we would you know, suppy New Zealand wine and
New Zealand lamb and they would all go away and
have written so many books in terms of what they've made,
in terms of their futures. So it wasn't politics at
all over on the West coast, but over on the
East coast, getting connections and getting in to see certain people.

(04:06):
I mean, it's such a huge operation there that to
get in and be able to make connections or host
them to the ambassador's residence for a dinner is just
about impossible unless you've got some other So I think
it's harsees for courses. I think there's been some really
good ones. I don't think it should be a general practice,
but I think Tim Grosser was a fantastic ambassador to

(04:28):
the United States. I think Anne King was a fantastic
a high Commission in Canberra, and there were others.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
What happened with Phil Goff? Was it just not knowing
the rules or thinking that you could be a bit
too clever for your own good.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, I just think there's some golden rules that you've
got to know that when you were there, Like I
was really on ten dogs because I was in the
States for Trump's first term, and I had a people
all the time asking me what do you think of
our president? What do you think of them? And I
had to say, look, I'm sorry, I'm a Consul General
of New Zealand. I am not going to an expressive

(05:03):
view in any way whatsoever. That is not my roll.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
And people must be hard for you because you are
described as flambuoyant and you you know, your one liners
have got you into travel before, so that showed you
admirable restraint.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I think that's fit. Well, it was literally that's part
of your role. I mean they made it clear at
the time of the appointment you went in for this
sort of I don't know what you'd call it, and
I'd call it an indoctrination, raising him for three or
three weeks, and they told you what you can and
can't do and what you should and shouldn't do and
so on, and one of them was you must never
ever take a position on the government or the politics

(05:41):
of the country. You're even down at state level, so
don't even get into the Californian State Parliament and what
they're doing right or wrong. That is something we stay
right out of. So when Goff made that comment about
when he made that comment about Trump, I actually heard
the comment before he was replaced, and I went, oh MG,
that's a line that I don't think he should have crossed.

(06:01):
And then all of a sudden, Winston came out straight
away and said, nah, you can't do that.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, he's home. How do we gauge whether somebody is
doing a good job or not as a member of
the public, because for most of us, trotting off to
Ireland looks like an absolute cushy sinecure, like please pick me,
you know.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yah know anything about I don't know anything about Ireland,
And there's never been anything on my radar in the past.
The real big markets were to try, oh pray. That's
why Tim Grosser was a great ambassador to the DC
that with the trade with America, it's some one of
our massive trading partners. You can tell what they've done
at the end of their term as to whether the

(06:41):
trade is booming, or whether the doors closed or something.
Sometimes it's not their fault, could be Trump having put
tariffs ongn and stuff to market. But in many cases
and others, you'll say they went there and all they
did was have cucumber sandwiches, and I won't name them,
but you'll be able to pick a few, and at
the end of their term and they came back it
made almost no difference of anything it had fought. So

(07:03):
it's again, it's not a black and white, not a horse.
It's horse for course, as some good, some bad, some
really dreadful.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
And you know you would have to say, given Trevor
Mallard's performance as speaker, he was an unlikely choice as
a diplomat. I mean surely that must ruffle feathers within
the diplomatic corps, who are trained, who are knowledgeable, who
probably don't have the access that prime ministers do, but
would arguably have as much access as a former speaker.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
I don't believe you'd need the sort of access I'm
talking about in something like Dublin. I mean, I just
don't think that's what you know. DC was the big one,
Canberra is the most next, London third, who's the ambassador
to say, Buenos Aires in Argentina? I don't think's on
for any of this stuff. And so Mallard got what

(07:52):
was obviously a sort of a cushy little number from
his family, having got contacts and so on in Ireland.
It's not any If you'd ever asked me of the
one person in my thirties in Parliament who I would
have said it was the least diplomatic or least able
to do a job like that, it would have definitely
been Trevor Mallard in my view.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
And there we shall leave it with another great one
liner from Morris Williamson, former minister and Auckland City councilor.
News Talk said.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
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