A report by The New Zealand Initiative finds the Government's ownership of 77,000 state houses has maintenance costs nearly twice that of a private landlord.
It finds it also doesn't respond quickly enough to issues like rent arrears, and troublesome tenants.
CEO of community housing Paul Gilberd told Kerre Woodham that the top priority for government housing is to support society's most vulnerable people.
'We're seeing huge surge in, youth and older adult and women's homelessness, which is very much hidden because women in particular are not safe on the streets.'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
He'd be so.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we've been discussing, Bill English is backing the view
that large scale government housing ownership likek Kung order is problematic.
The New Zealand Initiative has found that the government's ownership
of seventy seven thousand state houses has maintenance costs nearly
twice that of a private landlord. It doesn't respond quickly
enough to issues like rent areas and troublesome tenants. Sir
(00:34):
Bill English told Mike Costking that the point of social
housing is to improve the lids of tenants, so it
means focusing on the people and who owns the houses
is less important. The CEO of Community Housing alter it
or joins me now, Paul Gilbert, good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Is he right, Sir Bill English that it doesn't really
matter who owns the home, it's the people.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Look, I've had this conversation with Bill over the years,
and I think it's both and situation rather than either or.
Because the state sectors, as you've said, got seventy odd
thousand houses, our community housing sector has more or less
thirty thousand across the country from in Vericago down in
(01:21):
the South up to Kaityra and everywhere in between. So
I think it's a place based approach is the best
way to think about this in terms of who's best
in any given location to deliver the best outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Was my community social worker right though, in saying that
a lot of these agencies look at the people who
are applying and go, you have got to be kidding,
I'm not having you in my lovely, shiny new home.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Were you talking about the private market in that case, Well.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
These are community housing providers and EWE housing providers who
who say you've got to meet some criteria and new
people do not fit it.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh, I see yes, So thank you for clarifying. Actually,
in many places that's absolutely not the case. No, We've
got providers across the country who are dealing with absolutely
the most broken people who are having the worse days
of their lives. And so the spectrum of services we
deliver in the community sector include custody or psychiatric rehabilitation
(02:17):
back into communities, drug addiction, domestic violence. We're seeing huge
surge in youth and older adult and women's homelessness, which
is very much hidden because women in particular, are not
safe on the streets, and so our outreach programs, particularly
in urban context, I'm more worried about the gaps people
(02:38):
falling through the gaps in rural contexts, But in urban
context we through our various city missions and other outreach
programs alongside kying, aura, leaning in and dealing with the
most vulnerable people in our society.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
How are they ending up with that a roof over
their heads and unable to rent?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, look, it's really complex and there's a lot of
different dart's to that question we're doing as a sector
right now. Historically in the past and not for a
little while, but we used to do a head count,
which is notoriously inaccurate, and so what we're doing at
the moment is we are doing name counts, so actual
individual named people across the country, and I think quite
(03:25):
soon I'll be able to give you a much more
accurate answer to that question, because what we're asking people
is how did you come to be here on the street,
And so there's a broad range of answers to that.
Quite frequently, the state is the creator of homelessness by
discharging people out of hospitals and mental hospitals or releasing
people from prison without actually having a housing plan for them,
(03:47):
which is really not a great idea.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Are the houses there for them or do they still
need to be built.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, you're spot on. We have a fundamental lack of
affordable housing supply. That includes the stuff that Bill's talking
about in terms of social and affordable housing provided by
king Or and our sector. But we've got a thirty
five year cumulative deficit which runs into tens of thousands
of homes. And to speak back to the New Zealand
(04:15):
Initiative report, I'm afraid I haven't read it in four yet,
but I suspect ye. But I suspect I know the
direction that's coming from, which is that the market will provide.
And it's just not true that the market has limitations
in the market that it's designed to deliver market price
housing to the market. What we're talking about here is
low and moderate income households, many of whom don't have
(04:37):
great complexity in their lives, and increasingly they're just older
adults who can't afford a place to live on the pension.
They're not causing any trouble in their communities. There's just
not enough supply for them at all. And as a nation, everybody,
including kying or the community housing sector, central government, local government,
everybody needs to play a part in delivering the solutions
(04:57):
to this.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, Chris Bishop certainly looks like he's going to be
more effective at getting more housing than his predecessors have been.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yeah. Look, he's doing a really great job on the
scale of the market and unlocking land and removing planning
barriers and doing those sort of large scale housing system things,
but those are going to typically take ten, fifteen, twenty
years to really deliver it the scale we need. So
what your listeners are seeing now on the streets is
the short term impact of policy decisions, and obviously homelessness
(05:29):
is one of those.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It is. And I how many, though, are people in
crisis or the ones that you talked about, the ones
who just can't afford the rent because they haven't got
enough money coming in. They don't have complex issues, they
just don't have enough money.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah. So in our sector, we call that the intermediate
market or the stressed renter market. And there are one
hundred and eighty thousand households in New Zealand now who
are paying more than thirty percent they're paying forty fifty
sixty percent of their total income on their rent and
so that's where most of the people are falling out
of the private rental market, needing greater levels of subsidies
(06:07):
and higher cost of the taxpayer.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
We'll see, i'd consider myself then if you look at
them all.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
And so are our brothers and sisters in Remi, Wearra
and Addington, you know, with their kids who've moved home
because they can't afford the rent anymore. So, yeah, you're right.
This is becoming a much more broad problem within New
Zealand society, which is why I think everybody needs to
take a look at what they can do to help
be a part of the solution.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
How long. So, the thing that concerns me is that
we're only ever about three major accidents disasters away from
being on the street. Really, no matter how privileged you
think your life is, you know, you never know what's
around the corner. But how long does it take before
(06:57):
you lose your ability to start forging your own path again?
How like that learned helplessness terrifies me more than disaster does.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yep, you really hit the nail on the head many
many families now and individuals one life event or one
life shock away bit the car breaks down and marriage
breaks up, something unexpected happens with health, one step away
from precarious housing arrangements. And so in some cases, I mean,
(07:33):
I was at the launch last week, for example, in
christ Church of the Listen Up campaign, which is around
Doors to Dignity. It's an older adult housing campaign which
is going to run over the next three years, and
I had the real honor of meeting twenty older adults,
all of whom have had that exact experience. There's one
gentleman who'd run a multimillion dollar business, extraordinarily articulate, intelligent,
(07:57):
and a whole lot of things just happened that we're
out of his control. And he now is housed by
the Methodist Mission in the South Island. And when those stories,
you really do realize that could be me. And it's
a very slippery slope and can happen unexpectedly and very
quickly to any of us. And so I think as
(08:18):
part of your intro you spoke about the role of
the state as a sort of safety net to catch people.
And for many, many years through the thirties, forties, fifties,
right up into the eighties actually and into the late eighties.
New Zealand's housing system was the envy of the world
because we were catching people in that net and to
(08:38):
your point, providing them with pathways back to independent either
renting or home ownership. And so we've got a vision
that community housing ULTI war that we can do that again.
It is possible. It's about a number of political choices,
and we see the state as playing a significant role
in there. And I know that's not everybody's view, but
(09:00):
that's how that's how we got into that position before,
and that's how we can get I believe we can
do it again. We believe we can do it again
working together with the community sector.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Thank you so much for your time you all. Gilbert Ceo,
Community Housing Altador.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at b from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
He'd be so.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we've been discussing, Bill English is backing the view
that large scale government housing ownership likek Kung order is problematic.
The New Zealand Initiative has found that the government's ownership
of seventy seven thousand state houses has maintenance costs nearly
twice that of a private landlord. It doesn't respond quickly
enough to issues like rent areas and troublesome tenants. Sir
(00:34):
Bill English told Mike Costking that the point of social
housing is to improve the lids of tenants, so it
means focusing on the people and who owns the houses
is less important. The CEO of Community Housing alter it
or joins me now, Paul Gilbert, good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Is he right, Sir Bill English that it doesn't really
matter who owns the home, it's the people.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Look, I've had this conversation with Bill over the years,
and I think it's both and situation rather than either or.
Because the state sectors, as you've said, got seventy odd
thousand houses, our community housing sector has more or less
thirty thousand across the country from in Vericago down in
(01:21):
the South up to Kaityra and everywhere in between. So
I think it's a place based approach is the best
way to think about this in terms of who's best
in any given location to deliver the best outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Was my community social worker right though, in saying that
a lot of these agencies look at the people who
are applying and go, you have got to be kidding,
I'm not having you in my lovely, shiny new home.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Were you talking about the private market in that case, Well.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
These are community housing providers and EWE housing providers who
who say you've got to meet some criteria and new
people do not fit it.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh, I see yes, So thank you for clarifying. Actually,
in many places that's absolutely not the case. No, We've
got providers across the country who are dealing with absolutely
the most broken people who are having the worse days
of their lives. And so the spectrum of services we
deliver in the community sector include custody or psychiatric rehabilitation
(02:17):
back into communities, drug addiction, domestic violence. We're seeing huge
surge in youth and older adult and women's homelessness, which
is very much hidden because women in particular, are not
safe on the streets, and so our outreach programs, particularly
in urban context, I'm more worried about the gaps people
(02:38):
falling through the gaps in rural contexts, But in urban
context we through our various city missions and other outreach
programs alongside kying, aura, leaning in and dealing with the
most vulnerable people in our society.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
How are they ending up with that a roof over
their heads and unable to rent?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, look, it's really complex and there's a lot of
different dart's to that question we're doing as a sector
right now. Historically in the past and not for a
little while, but we used to do a head count,
which is notoriously inaccurate, and so what we're doing at
the moment is we are doing name counts, so actual
individual named people across the country, and I think quite
(03:25):
soon I'll be able to give you a much more
accurate answer to that question, because what we're asking people
is how did you come to be here on the street,
And so there's a broad range of answers to that.
Quite frequently, the state is the creator of homelessness by
discharging people out of hospitals and mental hospitals or releasing
people from prison without actually having a housing plan for them,
(03:47):
which is really not a great idea.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Are the houses there for them or do they still
need to be built.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, you're spot on. We have a fundamental lack of
affordable housing supply. That includes the stuff that Bill's talking
about in terms of social and affordable housing provided by
king Or and our sector. But we've got a thirty
five year cumulative deficit which runs into tens of thousands
of homes. And to speak back to the New Zealand
(04:15):
Initiative report, I'm afraid I haven't read it in four yet,
but I suspect ye. But I suspect I know the
direction that's coming from, which is that the market will provide.
And it's just not true that the market has limitations
in the market that it's designed to deliver market price
housing to the market. What we're talking about here is
low and moderate income households, many of whom don't have
(04:37):
great complexity in their lives, and increasingly they're just older
adults who can't afford a place to live on the pension.
They're not causing any trouble in their communities. There's just
not enough supply for them at all. And as a nation, everybody,
including kying or the community housing sector, central government, local government,
everybody needs to play a part in delivering the solutions
(04:57):
to this.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, Chris Bishop certainly looks like he's going to be
more effective at getting more housing than his predecessors have been.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yeah. Look, he's doing a really great job on the
scale of the market and unlocking land and removing planning
barriers and doing those sort of large scale housing system things,
but those are going to typically take ten, fifteen, twenty
years to really deliver it the scale we need. So
what your listeners are seeing now on the streets is
the short term impact of policy decisions, and obviously homelessness
(05:29):
is one of those.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It is. And I how many, though, are people in
crisis or the ones that you talked about, the ones
who just can't afford the rent because they haven't got
enough money coming in. They don't have complex issues, they
just don't have enough money.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah. So in our sector, we call that the intermediate
market or the stressed renter market. And there are one
hundred and eighty thousand households in New Zealand now who
are paying more than thirty percent they're paying forty fifty
sixty percent of their total income on their rent and
so that's where most of the people are falling out
of the private rental market, needing greater levels of subsidies
(06:07):
and higher cost of the taxpayer.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
We'll see, i'd consider myself then if you look at
them all.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
And so are our brothers and sisters in Remi, Wearra
and Addington, you know, with their kids who've moved home
because they can't afford the rent anymore. So, yeah, you're right.
This is becoming a much more broad problem within New
Zealand society, which is why I think everybody needs to
take a look at what they can do to help
be a part of the solution.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
How long. So, the thing that concerns me is that
we're only ever about three major accidents disasters away from
being on the street. Really, no matter how privileged you
think your life is, you know, you never know what's
around the corner. But how long does it take before
(06:57):
you lose your ability to start forging your own path again?
How like that learned helplessness terrifies me more than disaster does.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yep, you really hit the nail on the head many
many families now and individuals one life event or one
life shock away bit the car breaks down and marriage
breaks up, something unexpected happens with health, one step away
from precarious housing arrangements. And so in some cases, I mean,
(07:33):
I was at the launch last week, for example, in
christ Church of the Listen Up campaign, which is around
Doors to Dignity. It's an older adult housing campaign which
is going to run over the next three years, and
I had the real honor of meeting twenty older adults,
all of whom have had that exact experience. There's one
gentleman who'd run a multimillion dollar business, extraordinarily articulate, intelligent,
(07:57):
and a whole lot of things just happened that we're
out of his control. And he now is housed by
the Methodist Mission in the South Island. And when those stories,
you really do realize that could be me. And it's
a very slippery slope and can happen unexpectedly and very
quickly to any of us. And so I think as
(08:18):
part of your intro you spoke about the role of
the state as a sort of safety net to catch people.
And for many, many years through the thirties, forties, fifties,
right up into the eighties actually and into the late eighties.
New Zealand's housing system was the envy of the world
because we were catching people in that net and to
(08:38):
your point, providing them with pathways back to independent either
renting or home ownership. And so we've got a vision
that community housing ULTI war that we can do that again.
It is possible. It's about a number of political choices,
and we see the state as playing a significant role
in there. And I know that's not everybody's view, but
(09:00):
that's how that's how we got into that position before,
and that's how we can get I believe we can
do it again. We believe we can do it again
working together with the community sector.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Thank you so much for your time you all. Gilbert Ceo,
Community Housing Altador.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at b from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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