The Nurses Union claims the Government has lost control of health, as more than 36,000 workers prepare to strike.
Te Whatu Ora nurses, midwives, and health care assistants will walk off the job for 24 hours at the end of this month.
Nurses Organisation Chief Executive Paul Goulter says many members have voiced concerns over safety issues and staffing shortages - and change is needed.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from Newstalk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
According to new figures published by Health New Zealand te Fatora,
they've added twoy one hundred nurses and more than six
hundred doctors to their ranks between September twenty three and
March twenty five. On the same day as the Health
of New Zealand figures came out, the New Zealand Nurses
Organization announced they're more than thirty six thousand hospital nurses,
(00:33):
midwives and healthcare assistants will strike due to short staff
and concerns and concerns around patient safety. Nurses Organization Chief
executive Paul Golter joins me, now, very good morning to you, Paul,
good morning. How many more do you need and want?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, if we go to Tifatawara's own figures, they released
this in December twenty four, they say by twenty thirty three,
under a business's usual of approach, we're going to need
four thy one hundred more fde more nurses. So that
gives you an idea of the scart of what is needed.
(01:10):
And the area that's particularly hard hit is a residential
care I suspect people who've been near that sector would
have that feel. That's the area of most acute shortage
of nurses at this stage, and it's difficult to see
how that's going to get fixed.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So you're striking for short staffing in the future, not
the here and now.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No, it's very much an issue right now, and where
that shows up is in the using food at war
his own data and getting data out of t fut
at war is really difficult. That's why the chief onboards
and heavily criticize them. But the best we can determine
is that they are still running significant shifts under compliment.
(01:57):
Last year we got stats from Janus to October for
sixteen health districts and fifty percent of day shifts will
run running under complement. It's particularly bad in mental health
and maternal care on colleges bad as well. So if
you break it down into health districts and into particular
(02:18):
areas of specialty, some of these figures start to look
pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I was asking a nurse, has there ever been a
time where you felt you had sufficient staff for patient
safety and for the ability for nurses to actually do
the job they trained to do. That there was admin
staff that could do all the paperwork that there were
cleaning staff to do the cleaning doctors. Was there ever
a time that you can recall where we've had.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Enough, Well, it is very difficult to do. So. This
staffing area, as you point out, has always been a
big issue. Back in I think two thousand and seven
something like that, there was a massive dispute around it,
and out of that came an agreement former part ship
with the Engined NO and the dhb's at that time,
(03:09):
and that was to do work on what's called care
capacity demand management, which was a tool to identify need
on a ward by ward basis. That's basically continued, but
the partnerships fall into pieces and now the dominant concern
is not patient need but budget, and so the number
of nurses are squeezed into a budget figure rather than
(03:31):
being determined by need.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
But if we're going back in history, if you look
back at that, the nurses themselves withdrew the claim from
mandated nurse to patient ratios to help win their pay jot.
That got them a significant pay boost, which I'm sure
is deserved. But they were like, okay, well we can't
fight two battles. We'll have to get our pay over
(03:53):
the line and then we'll deal with patient safety through
this national committee.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, and history tells us it didn't work quite frankly,
that's why we've gone back very much to nurse patient
ratios and they're a lot more globally evidence even it's
based now.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And we're above the OECD when it comes to nurse
patient ratios.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
We're talking on a ward by ward basis. And this
is the problem. Our nurses are getting absolutely frustrated by
the fact that they can't get enough nurses into wards
when they needed. So the global figures, notice, actually aren't
just for hospitals either.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah. I just really struggle because we go back to
twenty fifteen and it was like we're all out on
strike because we've got concerns about patient safety and yet
nothing has changed. So what have you done?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Well, it did change. That was the introduction to CCDM,
and there was quite a lot of faith in that system.
I think from what I've been told it actually worked
was starting to work. But there was a review done
under Andrew Little's ministership of the implementation of CCDM and
it found it was very patchy and uneven across the
(05:19):
d with the DHB is at that stage. So the
tool that people have put faith in that it was
going to bring it right in that review was revealed
is not working.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And so this government's hired more you know, crocs on
the ground, but it's not enough. It's not enough.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
No, it isn't. And that's if your effect. Back last
year the Commissioner was saying we've hired three thousand more nurses,
so in fearing it wasn't a problem, but well no, I.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Think they acknowledged that there is. But they're doing, you know,
at least they're actioning it rather than Andrew Little putting
nurses on a you know, not putting them as on
the immigration list.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
No, they're not actioning. That's the issue. There's a day fact,
an actual freeze on the number of news is being recruited.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Well, then where have these twy one hundred nurses come
from in the six hundred doctors.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Well, I can't speak about the doctors, but first of all,
I'm not sure about that data. But let's go with
their number. It shows that they still are considerably short
of the number of nurses that are needed. So it
comes back carried to this issue of budget versus need,
and they can say they've hired one hundred more nurses,
(06:44):
but the point is, what are the number of nurses
that are actually needed? And we've tried to explore this
issue with the Futtal War leadership and we sort of
just can't seem to make much progress.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So how many do you say, if you dispute their figures,
how many do you say we need to have?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Well, again, it's kind of ward by award basis, and
it also requires us to get data around primary health,
where it's very difficult to get data about how many
nurses are actually needed their age. Residential care again is
difficult to get the data, but it's also difficult to
get it out of to Futtal War.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
But then you don't accept the data anyway, because when
I give you the OECD ficause you said, no, well,
we've got to look at ward by ward.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
No.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
What we're saying is if we go with to Futtle
Wars number of four one hundred nurses short by twenty
thirty three, that gives you an idea of the gaps
that exists at the moment. And what we're trying to
do with our own research is to identify across those
different subsectors just how many nurses were short. But the
(07:53):
point is we are short of nurses, and two one hundred,
if that's to be believed, and I've not seen what
lies behind that is pulls up short of what is
actually needed. The point, the interesting point you make is
this has been going on for a long period of
time exactly. I thought we thought we had a solution
(08:14):
to it, and that solution doesn't seem to work. But
we would argue that's because of imperfect implementation. What we're
saying with nurse patient ratios, which is what we're trying
to get sorted through the bargaining, is let's use the
evidence base that that CCDM staffing system produced in order
to establish those minimum falls for nurs patient ratios, and
(08:36):
then have that informed by the evidence.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Okay, I thank you very much for your time in
stepping out of the meeting to talk to me. Paul,
I'm not it's maybe it's me. I'm not sure I'm
any further ahead, because if you dispute the figures, then
they're how on earth are you going to have a
discussion if you want your own I suppose it's lies.
Damn lies and statistics really, isn't it. I mean, everyone
(09:02):
can come up with their own set of numbers and
argue them, argue that.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from Newstalk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
According to new figures published by Health New Zealand te Fatora,
they've added twoy one hundred nurses and more than six
hundred doctors to their ranks between September twenty three and
March twenty five. On the same day as the Health
of New Zealand figures came out, the New Zealand Nurses
Organization announced they're more than thirty six thousand hospital nurses,
(00:33):
midwives and healthcare assistants will strike due to short staff
and concerns and concerns around patient safety. Nurses Organization Chief
executive Paul Golter joins me, now, very good morning to you, Paul,
good morning. How many more do you need and want?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, if we go to Tifatawara's own figures, they released
this in December twenty four, they say by twenty thirty three,
under a business's usual of approach, we're going to need
four thy one hundred more fde more nurses. So that
gives you an idea of the scart of what is needed.
(01:10):
And the area that's particularly hard hit is a residential
care I suspect people who've been near that sector would
have that feel. That's the area of most acute shortage
of nurses at this stage, and it's difficult to see
how that's going to get fixed.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So you're striking for short staffing in the future, not
the here and now.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No, it's very much an issue right now, and where
that shows up is in the using food at war
his own data and getting data out of t fut
at war is really difficult. That's why the chief onboards
and heavily criticize them. But the best we can determine
is that they are still running significant shifts under compliment.
(01:57):
Last year we got stats from Janus to October for
sixteen health districts and fifty percent of day shifts will
run running under complement. It's particularly bad in mental health
and maternal care on colleges bad as well. So if
you break it down into health districts and into particular
(02:18):
areas of specialty, some of these figures start to look
pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I was asking a nurse, has there ever been a
time where you felt you had sufficient staff for patient
safety and for the ability for nurses to actually do
the job they trained to do. That there was admin
staff that could do all the paperwork that there were
cleaning staff to do the cleaning doctors. Was there ever
a time that you can recall where we've had.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Enough, Well, it is very difficult to do. So. This
staffing area, as you point out, has always been a
big issue. Back in I think two thousand and seven
something like that, there was a massive dispute around it,
and out of that came an agreement former part ship
with the Engined NO and the dhb's at that time,
(03:09):
and that was to do work on what's called care
capacity demand management, which was a tool to identify need
on a ward by ward basis. That's basically continued, but
the partnerships fall into pieces and now the dominant concern
is not patient need but budget, and so the number
of nurses are squeezed into a budget figure rather than
(03:31):
being determined by need.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
But if we're going back in history, if you look
back at that, the nurses themselves withdrew the claim from
mandated nurse to patient ratios to help win their pay jot.
That got them a significant pay boost, which I'm sure
is deserved. But they were like, okay, well we can't
fight two battles. We'll have to get our pay over
(03:53):
the line and then we'll deal with patient safety through
this national committee.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, and history tells us it didn't work quite frankly,
that's why we've gone back very much to nurse patient
ratios and they're a lot more globally evidence even it's
based now.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And we're above the OECD when it comes to nurse
patient ratios.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
We're talking on a ward by ward basis. And this
is the problem. Our nurses are getting absolutely frustrated by
the fact that they can't get enough nurses into wards
when they needed. So the global figures, notice, actually aren't
just for hospitals either.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah. I just really struggle because we go back to
twenty fifteen and it was like we're all out on
strike because we've got concerns about patient safety and yet
nothing has changed. So what have you done?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Well, it did change. That was the introduction to CCDM,
and there was quite a lot of faith in that system.
I think from what I've been told it actually worked
was starting to work. But there was a review done
under Andrew Little's ministership of the implementation of CCDM and
it found it was very patchy and uneven across the
(05:19):
d with the DHB is at that stage. So the
tool that people have put faith in that it was
going to bring it right in that review was revealed
is not working.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And so this government's hired more you know, crocs on
the ground, but it's not enough. It's not enough.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
No, it isn't. And that's if your effect. Back last
year the Commissioner was saying we've hired three thousand more nurses,
so in fearing it wasn't a problem, but well no, I.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Think they acknowledged that there is. But they're doing, you know,
at least they're actioning it rather than Andrew Little putting
nurses on a you know, not putting them as on
the immigration list.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
No, they're not actioning. That's the issue. There's a day fact,
an actual freeze on the number of news is being recruited.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Well, then where have these twy one hundred nurses come
from in the six hundred doctors.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Well, I can't speak about the doctors, but first of all,
I'm not sure about that data. But let's go with
their number. It shows that they still are considerably short
of the number of nurses that are needed. So it
comes back carried to this issue of budget versus need,
and they can say they've hired one hundred more nurses,
(06:44):
but the point is, what are the number of nurses
that are actually needed? And we've tried to explore this
issue with the Futtal War leadership and we sort of
just can't seem to make much progress.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So how many do you say, if you dispute their figures,
how many do you say we need to have?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Well, again, it's kind of ward by award basis, and
it also requires us to get data around primary health,
where it's very difficult to get data about how many
nurses are actually needed their age. Residential care again is
difficult to get the data, but it's also difficult to
get it out of to Futtal War.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
But then you don't accept the data anyway, because when
I give you the OECD ficause you said, no, well,
we've got to look at ward by ward.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
No.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
What we're saying is if we go with to Futtle
Wars number of four one hundred nurses short by twenty
thirty three, that gives you an idea of the gaps
that exists at the moment. And what we're trying to
do with our own research is to identify across those
different subsectors just how many nurses were short. But the
(07:53):
point is we are short of nurses, and two one hundred,
if that's to be believed, and I've not seen what
lies behind that is pulls up short of what is
actually needed. The point, the interesting point you make is
this has been going on for a long period of
time exactly. I thought we thought we had a solution
(08:14):
to it, and that solution doesn't seem to work. But
we would argue that's because of imperfect implementation. What we're
saying with nurse patient ratios, which is what we're trying
to get sorted through the bargaining, is let's use the
evidence base that that CCDM staffing system produced in order
to establish those minimum falls for nurs patient ratios, and
(08:36):
then have that informed by the evidence.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Okay, I thank you very much for your time in
stepping out of the meeting to talk to me. Paul,
I'm not it's maybe it's me. I'm not sure I'm
any further ahead, because if you dispute the figures, then
they're how on earth are you going to have a
discussion if you want your own I suppose it's lies.
Damn lies and statistics really, isn't it. I mean, everyone
(09:02):
can come up with their own set of numbers and
argue them, argue that.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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