October 9, 2025 • 8 mins
A former Speaker of the House is reiterating the importance of the rules of Parliament after a haka disrupted proceedings.
The House was suspended last night, after a haka broke out in the public gallery, following Te Pati Māori MP Oriini Kaipara's maiden speech.
Speaker Gerry Brownlee said the agreement was that a haka was not to take place.
Former speaker Sir Lockwood Smith told Kerre Woodham rules are there for good reason.
He says there are plenty of opportunities for culture to be expressed, but it has to be done in accordance with the rules and agreements with the Speaker.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing or any Copraer's maiden
speech was marred by a number of violations of House rules.
Her speech ran well over the allocated time of fifteen minutes.
It was then followed by a wiret and hakka, at
which point Specker Jerry Browne had had nothing suspended the house.
Joining me now is former National MPN Speaker of the House,
(00:31):
Sir Lockwood Smith. And I think I'm joined by a
herd of Belgian blues as well, Is that right, Sir Locker?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, Kerry, they've just moved down the race a little
bit now so you won't get too much noise from them,
which is great.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Beautiful beasts. Well, we heard rather too much from order
any copra What would you have done in her circumstance,
As a previous text said, it was up to the
speaker to cut off her microphone and camera if she'd
repeatedly ignored calls to stop.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
It really is kerrieding that texture is right that I
remember the day that Honey Huddawerer came into the House
to take his oath of allegiance and of course maori.
Anyone's perfectly entitled to take their oath and maori, and
they don't need to swear on the Bible. That can
just make an affirmation. But Hney chose to depart from
what the law requires and the rules of the House require.
(01:20):
So I simply stopped them and said, the member will
now leave the house and he's walten come back any
time he's prepared to comply with the law. And he
went out, and actually he dropped his lovely cloak on
the way out by accident. But you know, I think
the Speaker has to be more clear about the rules.
The rules of Parliament are there for good reason. You know,
(01:43):
They're not there just to be old fashioned or difficult.
They're there to try and make sure Parliament is a
place of debate where people can make points, argue a case,
but in an affair and reasonable way. They can get
passionate about it, they can get quite strong in their
(02:04):
expression of their use. But the rules are there for
very good reason.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
What do you do when people insist on flouting the rules?
Because you can understand people making a mistake or being
ignorant of rules, and you correct them and they're sorry,
and you know, apologize and and you move on and
everyone learns. But what happens when people know it's wrong
and continue to flat the rules.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Well, it's been to speaker should step in to me
the problem. Forgive me if I sound of an old
school carrier, but the problem goes back are we But
I think you know, I think Speaker Mallard allowed the
standards of the house to decline very significantly. And I mean,
if I was speaking there now known is easy to
say what you might do, but I wouldn't allow people
(02:52):
to come to that place wearing a hat, or wearing
sand shoes, or wearing protest scarfs. I mean the rules
didn't you still allow for any of that. You come
into that place to make your point, to argue the case,
and it's nothing to do with anyone's particular culture. You
can argue your case in Maori. And what's more, you know,
(03:13):
I think the House welcomes hearing from the part of
multi culture being expressed in the house, but it's got
to be done in a way that's orderly. And over
the years speakers have allowed, following debates the gallery to
be involved in Waarta and that's wonderful as a kid.
(03:33):
One of my favorite programs on Radio Kerry was a
program called kingy Ihaka, answers listeners questions on Mari language,
customs and traditions and a little bit of a soft
you know it comes to Malori culture and kappa hakka.
I love it. But you know that doesn't mean to
say you just ignore the rules of Parliament. There's plenty
of opportunity in Parliament for Malori culture to be expressed
(03:57):
and showcased, but it's got to be done in accordance
with the rules. And what's the agreement of the speaker.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So what penalties are available to this speaker to allow
for you know, repeated violations of the rules. And you're right.
I was thinking maybe parliament's just a bit fusty and
old fashioned, but you're right. There has been an evolution
slowly to allow for diversity within Parliament. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And for example, if I was speaker, I'd have no
problem with Maori coming into the house wearing you know,
traditional Maori costume of you know that would be worn
to a particularly important Maori event. I have no problem
with that at all. But you know, cowboy hats and
scar protest scarves are simply not appropriate in a place
(04:46):
where we should be debating the important issues.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So what do you do as speaker to enforce the rules.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
The Speaker's got huge power carry you, honest, believe me,
if they've got the courage to do it. You know,
when I became a Speaker and at sudden enforcing the
rules around answering questions that sort of thing, I took
a bit of a risk. The House could have not
liked it too much. But so long as it's done
in a fair and balanced way, I think you know
(05:15):
the members, because after all, it is the members who
ultimately these matters are in the hands of the members,
and the speaker cannot ignore the will of the members
if you like. And that's why when a member is named,
the Speaker puts a motion to the House, and the
House of votes on whether a member is to be
suspended from the service of the House. That is the
(05:36):
ultimate As we saw a while back when someone refused
to comply, and it was Chloe Swarbrick refused to comply
with the Speaker's direction, and she was named and the
House voted on that. Because the members are ultimately the
determinants of the rules that those who determine the rules,
but the speaker applies them. And I just think the
(05:58):
house is once you allow, you know, things to slip,
it's hard to haul them back.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But Adrian, I thought, did a good job as speaker.
We you know, he seemed to be able to quietly
as you did. You don't have to sheut and ballow
and engage and like Mallard did and in a kind
of continual verbal fisticuffs with members. But how do you
(06:28):
how do you enforce the rules of the house and
get the respect back once you've lost it.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I mean, you make a very good point, Carrie. I
think speaker I was a very very good speaker, And
you're right. He kept the place operating smoothly and reasonably
and calm. And that's the great goal of the speaker
is not to be a star, but to make sure
that the house operates efficiently and effectively. And that's the ultimate goal.
(06:59):
And it's actually quite a quite us job. I never
went to parliam to be Speaker, but I was privileged
to end up in that role and actually found it
a very very rewarding role because you are accountable for
the way the House operates, and I think it starts
with actually making fair decisions, often tough decisions, but absolutely fair,
(07:25):
and you seem to be fair by all members of
the House and getting the members support behind you because
at the Business Committee you can discuss these matters and
the speak of chairs that of course, and also there's
a committee every term of Parliament looking at that reviews
the standing Orders of the House and that's also an
opportunity to review what's working and what's not and every
(07:47):
party in the House is involved in that, and you know,
that's how the place evolves. It's through decisions recommendations made
by that committee. And so it just saddens me to
see where things have got to because if you allow
one person to get away breaking the rules, someone else
from doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I thank you, as always for your time, Sir lockwood Smith,
former Speaker of the House.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks it Be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the carry wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing or any Copraer's maiden
speech was marred by a number of violations of House rules.
Her speech ran well over the allocated time of fifteen minutes.
It was then followed by a wiret and hakka, at
which point Specker Jerry Browne had had nothing suspended the house.
Joining me now is former National MPN Speaker of the House,
(00:31):
Sir Lockwood Smith. And I think I'm joined by a
herd of Belgian blues as well, Is that right, Sir Locker?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, Kerry, they've just moved down the race a little
bit now so you won't get too much noise from them,
which is great.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Beautiful beasts. Well, we heard rather too much from order
any copra What would you have done in her circumstance,
As a previous text said, it was up to the
speaker to cut off her microphone and camera if she'd
repeatedly ignored calls to stop.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
It really is kerrieding that texture is right that I
remember the day that Honey Huddawerer came into the House
to take his oath of allegiance and of course maori.
Anyone's perfectly entitled to take their oath and maori, and
they don't need to swear on the Bible. That can
just make an affirmation. But Hney chose to depart from
what the law requires and the rules of the House require.
(01:20):
So I simply stopped them and said, the member will
now leave the house and he's walten come back any
time he's prepared to comply with the law. And he
went out, and actually he dropped his lovely cloak on
the way out by accident. But you know, I think
the Speaker has to be more clear about the rules.
The rules of Parliament are there for good reason. You know,
(01:43):
They're not there just to be old fashioned or difficult.
They're there to try and make sure Parliament is a
place of debate where people can make points, argue a case,
but in an affair and reasonable way. They can get
passionate about it, they can get quite strong in their
(02:04):
expression of their use. But the rules are there for
very good reason.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
What do you do when people insist on flouting the rules?
Because you can understand people making a mistake or being
ignorant of rules, and you correct them and they're sorry,
and you know, apologize and and you move on and
everyone learns. But what happens when people know it's wrong
and continue to flat the rules.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Well, it's been to speaker should step in to me
the problem. Forgive me if I sound of an old
school carrier, but the problem goes back are we But
I think you know, I think Speaker Mallard allowed the
standards of the house to decline very significantly. And I mean,
if I was speaking there now known is easy to
say what you might do, but I wouldn't allow people
(02:52):
to come to that place wearing a hat, or wearing
sand shoes, or wearing protest scarfs. I mean the rules
didn't you still allow for any of that. You come
into that place to make your point, to argue the case,
and it's nothing to do with anyone's particular culture. You
can argue your case in Maori. And what's more, you know,
(03:13):
I think the House welcomes hearing from the part of
multi culture being expressed in the house, but it's got
to be done in a way that's orderly. And over
the years speakers have allowed, following debates the gallery to
be involved in Waarta and that's wonderful as a kid.
(03:33):
One of my favorite programs on Radio Kerry was a
program called kingy Ihaka, answers listeners questions on Mari language,
customs and traditions and a little bit of a soft
you know it comes to Malori culture and kappa hakka.
I love it. But you know that doesn't mean to
say you just ignore the rules of Parliament. There's plenty
of opportunity in Parliament for Malori culture to be expressed
(03:57):
and showcased, but it's got to be done in accordance
with the rules. And what's the agreement of the speaker.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So what penalties are available to this speaker to allow
for you know, repeated violations of the rules. And you're right.
I was thinking maybe parliament's just a bit fusty and
old fashioned, but you're right. There has been an evolution
slowly to allow for diversity within Parliament. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And for example, if I was speaker, I'd have no
problem with Maori coming into the house wearing you know,
traditional Maori costume of you know that would be worn
to a particularly important Maori event. I have no problem
with that at all. But you know, cowboy hats and
scar protest scarves are simply not appropriate in a place
(04:46):
where we should be debating the important issues.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So what do you do as speaker to enforce the rules.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
The Speaker's got huge power carry you, honest, believe me,
if they've got the courage to do it. You know,
when I became a Speaker and at sudden enforcing the
rules around answering questions that sort of thing, I took
a bit of a risk. The House could have not
liked it too much. But so long as it's done
in a fair and balanced way, I think you know
(05:15):
the members, because after all, it is the members who
ultimately these matters are in the hands of the members,
and the speaker cannot ignore the will of the members
if you like. And that's why when a member is named,
the Speaker puts a motion to the House, and the
House of votes on whether a member is to be
suspended from the service of the House. That is the
(05:36):
ultimate As we saw a while back when someone refused
to comply, and it was Chloe Swarbrick refused to comply
with the Speaker's direction, and she was named and the
House voted on that. Because the members are ultimately the
determinants of the rules that those who determine the rules,
but the speaker applies them. And I just think the
(05:58):
house is once you allow, you know, things to slip,
it's hard to haul them back.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But Adrian, I thought, did a good job as speaker.
We you know, he seemed to be able to quietly
as you did. You don't have to sheut and ballow
and engage and like Mallard did and in a kind
of continual verbal fisticuffs with members. But how do you
(06:28):
how do you enforce the rules of the house and
get the respect back once you've lost it.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I mean, you make a very good point, Carrie. I
think speaker I was a very very good speaker, And
you're right. He kept the place operating smoothly and reasonably
and calm. And that's the great goal of the speaker
is not to be a star, but to make sure
that the house operates efficiently and effectively. And that's the ultimate goal.
(06:59):
And it's actually quite a quite us job. I never
went to parliam to be Speaker, but I was privileged
to end up in that role and actually found it
a very very rewarding role because you are accountable for
the way the House operates, and I think it starts
with actually making fair decisions, often tough decisions, but absolutely fair,
(07:25):
and you seem to be fair by all members of
the House and getting the members support behind you because
at the Business Committee you can discuss these matters and
the speak of chairs that of course, and also there's
a committee every term of Parliament looking at that reviews
the standing Orders of the House and that's also an
opportunity to review what's working and what's not and every
(07:47):
party in the House is involved in that, and you know,
that's how the place evolves. It's through decisions recommendations made
by that committee. And so it just saddens me to
see where things have got to because if you allow
one person to get away breaking the rules, someone else
from doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I thank you, as always for your time, Sir lockwood Smith,
former Speaker of the House.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks it Be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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