Episode 32: Steve Jurkovich

In Leaders Getting Coffee episode 32, our guest is Kiwibank CEO, Steve Jurkovich.

Banks play an important role in the economy and our everyday lives. And yet, it’s the first time we’ve had a bank CEO as our guest on the podcast.

And he doesn’t disappoint. From growing up in Paeroa and Auckland’s North Shore, and a boyhood dominated by sports at Glenfield College, we hear of a fast moving career supported by the mentorship of some of New Zealand’s most well-known business leaders.

After leaving school, Steve started at Teachers training college, before deciding to pursue a law degree at Otago University instead. Upon graduating he spent a few years practicing law, but the business of banking beckoned and a move to ASB settled him into a long and enjoyable career.

Steve is a passionate leader with a heavy emphasis on purpose, in particular the need for Kiwibank to make a real difference to the lives of New Zealanders. And he believes in the value of a common vision for the country he cares deeply about.

During the Leaders Getting Coffee podcast, Steve Jurkovich talks to Bruce Cotterill about the importance of helping businesses to stay afloat during tough times. He notes that the Covid-19 pandemic was not the fault of business owners and talks about setting up outbound call centres during lockdowns to enable the bank to proactively engage with and support struggling businesses.

He’s equally passionate as he talks about the impact of Covid-19 on our kids, and how business leaders can play a role in helping today’s graduates catch up on what they missed when the country was locked down.

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is an iHeartRadio New Zealand podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to episode thirty two of
the Leader's Getting Coffee podcast. It's Bruce Cottrel here and
I really appreciate you taking the time to join us.
We have another terrific business leader joining us today and
he's from one of our most important business sectors and
it's a sector that we haven't covered on Leaders Getting
Coffee yet, so it's a discussion that I'm really looking

(00:48):
forward to. But before we get to that, a couple
of things. Firstly, thank you for all the responses to
podcast number thirty one with our guest, the right Honorable
Winston Peters. The feedback's been terrific and I'm delighted to
hear that so many of you are enjoying the podcast. Secondly,
the feedback it's also been flowing thick and fast on
my column from the weekend. The article ran in the

(01:11):
New Zealand Herald on Saturday, the twenty third of November
under the headline the right to protest is vital, even
if you don't agree with the cause. The article came
about as I reflected on the Hikooy protest that finished
up in Wellington last week, like a lot of New Zealanders,
and it won't come as much of a surprise to
most of you. The cause of that particular protest is
not my cup of tea, but I do care about

(01:32):
the fact that we have the right to stand up
and say our piece, whatever the topic may be, and
whatever our view may be. We're living in a world
where what I call core freedoms are under attack freedom
of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of movement, and
even our neighbors across the Tasman are in the process
of legislating against the use of social media and separately
what has become known as disinformation and misinformation. As we

(01:56):
go about our days, we should be free to research, debate,
free to speak, free to move around, and indeed free
to consider the unfiltered opinions of others. We must be
educated enough to read or hear the information and rational
enough to make sense of it. Once informed, we should
be free to educate others, or at least to share
our views with them, and so, no matter how much

(02:17):
we may disagree with a point of view, the opportunity
to listen to that perspective and to consider it as
a freedom that we must viciously protect those freedoms are
central to our democracy in New Zealand and we should
be grateful that they remain intact. You can read the
full article, as I mentioned, comes up from Saturday, the

(02:38):
twenty third of November, under the headline the right to
protest is vital even if you don't agree with the cause.
It's at NZ Herald dot co dot in Z, or
you can find it under published articles at dubdubdub dot
brucecottrel dot com, Forward slash Blog. Thanks again for joining
us on Leaders Getting Coffee. As always, thanks for the
team at the New Zealand Herald who run my articles,

(02:59):
and to the team at newstorg zb who help us
put these podcasts together. We'll be back in a moment
with this week's guest. Welcome back to episode thirty two
of Leaders Getting Coffee. You know, banks play such an

(03:20):
important role in our lives, and it seems that they're
central to much of the discussion that occurs when the
economy is going through a tough time as it is
at the moment. We talk a lot about interest rates,
we talk about the housing market, and we talk about
the attitude of banks, of course, who play a critical
role in both of those things. We talk about bank
profits and they often come into the spotlight when the

(03:41):
going gets tough for everybody else. And so it's probably
surprising that it's taken us this long to invite a
banking leader to join the podcast. That banking leader is
Steve Jerkovich, the CEO of our very own Kiwi Bank.
Steve graduated from Otaga University with a Bachelor of Laws degree.
What is it about law degrees? I think this is
the fourth law graduate we've had in a row on

(04:01):
leaders getting coffee. But he graduated with a law degree
and started his career with the midside firm Chief England
Jew But it wasn't long before he moved into the
banking sector through a role as a legal council at ASB.
He quickly moved into the banking business itself, firstly as
the general manager for Online Banking at ASB, but before

(04:23):
too long he was moving on to a range of
leadership roles at Commonwealth Bank and Westpac, before returning to
as BEAR as an executive general manager, firstly for the Corporate,
Commercial and Rural business and subsequently for business banking. Then
in twenty eighteen he joined Kiwibank as the CEO of
role he's held ever since. Along the way, he completed

(04:44):
his MBA at the University of Sydney, spent over two
years as chairman of the New Zealand Bankers Association during
the COVID pandemic, and he's currently a director of the
Banking Onwardsman Scheme. He does his bit for the community too.
He's a founding trustee of the Tania Dalton Foundation and
a former board member of Kristen's School in Albany. He's married,

(05:05):
has a couple of daughters aged eighteen twenty four, one
just leaving high school, one just leaving university. Sounds like
a busy life, Steve Jerkovic, Welcome to Leaders getting coffee.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
Thanks Brouce, great to be here.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
It's great to have you. Did you get a chance
to see the column over the weekend?

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, I did.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I thought that perspectives brought forward were really interesting ones
and I was actually in Wellington the day that the
heckle We made its way to the Beehive and so
it was interesting to see the article having seeing the
people walking to Parliament.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Do you have a view on my comment? Am I
on the right track.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
I one hundred percent agree with the real benefit of
having colliding perspectives about these things. Yeah, you know, and
I know in my own role here, we know twice
a year do a very extensive engagement survey. Our last
one had three thousand comments from two and a half
thousand people, so you know, there's a lot of feedback there.
What really strikes me is that there is totally different perspectives,

(06:01):
and you know, these ideas are held as ones that
people feel really firmly about. And you know, I'll just
use an easy example hybrid working, So working from home.
A ton of people tell me we should be more flexible,
a ton of people tell me we should be less flexible,
and both of those are true if that's your perspective.
I think in the Hikoy, the colliding perspectives part is

(06:22):
really important. What worried me, I think was probably the
last twelve months. But the last twelve months have hat
a lot more divisive, and I think probably unnecessarily so,
you know, some of the stuff that's been created has
created a wedge after a while, we're actually thought there'd
been quite a nice coming together. It's totally understandable, you know,

(06:45):
with what twenty forty, I think will be two hundred
years of the treaty. Over that time, you know, there's
been many different perspectives and it means something different to everyone.
But you know, hopefully those colliding perspectives can be done
with respect and have room to flourish. I have to
say I thought the actual vibe of the Hkkoy itself
was really construct have been very peaceful in Wellington very

(07:08):
different too. I was actually there when the COVID one
was on, and you could feel their anger, and you
could feel the angst, and you could feel the built
up frustration right from the very start on an early
morning walk and Wellington on the Hakkoy day and everyone
was in good spirits, you know, a lot of welcoming,
really young people, which also suggests to me that maybe
that Hakoy, you know, those views are going to persevere

(07:29):
for another eighty or ninety years, given you know most
people live for that age. Those young kids, I'm sure
remember that the Hakoy And it's going to be interesting
see how that unfolds.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, it is going to be interesting. And it's and
as I said in the column, these these protests and
this opportunity protest and we've We've had it for years
in this country over a range of different topics, including
race and the treaty that made us who we are,
right and sometimes you just have to go through a
bit of Nigel before you can find some common ground.

(07:59):
And hopefully we're in the process of doing that, certainly, hope.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
So.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
I mentioned in the introduction the Tania Dalton Foundation, which
is probably quite well known to those of us who
live on the North shore of Auckland, but probably less
well known elsewhere in the country. You've been a trustee
since Dwayne first set the foundation up. Would you like
to sort of share a little bit about the views
of that particular charitable effort.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, I'd love to, Brochuck.

Speaker 4 (08:25):
I mean this to only Dolpen Foundation or TDF as
we call it. Was created in Tanya's memory and for
those of us that new Tea and many people right
across the country, and of course no from her super
successful sporting career, but also her high jinks as a
commentator for netball and for Sky you know, and really
what you saw on TV there is what you got

(08:46):
with Tea, an amazing person, larger than life personality on
the North Shore, but throughout the country based on her
sporting events, knew everyone, but was all about people living
up to their potential. And so the idea of the
TDF is that we across sixteen sports now we picked
young women and try and unleash their epic potential. And

(09:07):
so often the scholarship award winners will be people that
have got, as it says, on the turn the epic potential.
But sometimes there's a monetary constraint due to the family
circumstances or other circumstances. That means, you know, what some
of us would think is pretty routine is really difficult.
So having transport to get to practice, for instance, you know,

(09:28):
the latest equipment if you're a surf life saving or
a canoeist, being able to get to the nationals if
you're competing in basketball, because if you can't, you won't
get picked in the team. And if you don't get
picked in the national team, you won't go to Asia.
If you don't go to Asia, you probably won't get
a scholarship into America. So you know, it is a
pathway for us. You know, we've given hundreds and hundreds

(09:48):
of thousands of dollars of support, but it's also the
pastoral care and support. You know, it's not uncommon to
you know, really feel like the difference that is happening
in these young women's lives is just a bit of
a different set of perspectives than the ones you used
to might be because the family is just not in
a situation where they can afford to support that or
that's just not the status colony family around some of

(10:10):
the structure and focus that other families can have. The
mental thing really helps as well. These young women get
amazing access to the Bernese Menis of the world and
Aideen and others like that. Just incredible what they offer
and you can see them lighter.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
You know.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
Some of them have gone on to be fantastic representatives
for New Zealand. Others have fulfilled their potential and more
junior level and gone on to do something else. So
something I love, particularly as the dad of daughters.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
I think, you know, being in a situation where.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
We are able to support them, being able to offer
something in terms of a trustee but also as a
scholarship partner from time to time has worked out to
be really fulfilling.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Fantastic And I can tell your passion from just listening
to you speak about it, Steven, and certainly I'll vouch
for the fact that not only was she a great athlete,
Tanya Dalton was a great character. She actually taught my
kids to play tennis, believe it or not, and they
had a ball doing that with her. So it's great
that people like you can get involved with charities like that.

(11:12):
So thank you for what you do.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:14):
I just think one of the magic Kove Bruce is
that you know, she had you know, she wanted the
best out of people, but expected them to do their best.
And I think it was a great lesson for you know,
many of the kids that she's coached and supported and encouraged,
which is, you know, set yourself some high standards and
chased them, but also have some.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Fun on the way.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
And it's, I reckon, a pretty good lesson, yeah, and
a good legacy. Yeah, let's talk about you. Where did
you go to school?

Speaker 3 (11:39):
I went to Glenfield College in my high school.

Speaker 4 (11:41):
Years before that I was at Glenfield Intermediate and then
Greenhead Primary. So Shaw Boy really born in Pyrow in
the Thames Valley. My parents separated when I was pretty young,
but my father's side of the family were Yugoslav immigrants who,
as a result of the sort of economic chaos in
Croatia or Damatia or Yugoslavia or whatever you want to

(12:01):
call it, had to leave. I'm not sure how many
people know, but so many of that generations of Deli's
as they're called, that turned up in New Zealand. We're
off the back of the Dalmatian coast, had a terrible
famine and all olive groves and everything died off, and
so they sort of economic refugees who turned up in
New Zealand. They got a chance to start a farm

(12:25):
in a swamp in the Thames Valley and turned that
into a farm. And then in my earlier years, my
parents separated, so I sort of spent a lot of
weekends in Pirate and Neederson and Wayhe Beach and why
He and the rest of the time on the North Shore.
So later in my career I thought it always helped
a bit to have a sort of a foot in
the provinces and a foot in the city. But most

(12:47):
people would consider me to be a long suffering North
Harbor fan.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well, most North Harbour fans along suffering.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
Let's face, we've had our moments. We've had our moments,
but yeah, we've had a few lean years as well.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
So we actually have a couple of things in common
in common. Not only were we both on school boards
of schools based in the Albany area, but we're both
born in the Thames Valley. So there you go.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
There you go whereabouts in the valley we're from.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
I was born in Thames.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Oh, there you go.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
But before I was one year one year old, we
moved to We moved to wong Array, where I stayed
for about thirteen years until high school. So right, so
there you go. But then you went on so Glenfield College.
Were you a leader in school or did leadership come
later or how did that or happen?

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Certainly not a leader in the classroom.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
Later on in life I worked out with dyslexic, but
dyslexic and later on in life have sort of worked
out also a bit an adult ADHD, which sort of
was quite late in life to work it out. But
it's actually been quite insightful to work out why at
times I've probably gone okay because I can be hyper
focused at other times. It also sort of recognizes that

(13:59):
the things that I'm not super interested, and I'm not.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Great at pretending i am, and over time in leadership.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Roles, I've had to sort of work on that without
the sort of insights that came in the.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Last few years.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
But loved sports, So played first eleven cricket, played first
eleven football, played first fifteen rugby, dabbled in basketball and
volleyball and every other sports.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I really loved sports.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
And a lot of ways that was off the back
of an amazing leader of the school, Dave Norris, so
very well known on the little sure but Olympian, Commonwealth
Empire Games Order of New Zealand, you know, a lot
behind the National Institute of Sport and those sorts of things.
So amazing guy in a lot of ways. You know,
that was a very multicultural school in Glenfield, and so

(14:44):
sports was sort of seen as a kind of unifying thing.
Didn't find school easy, but probably wasn't that focused on it,
to be fair. And then but also another great teacher there,
John Watson. So he is a counselor now but was
a prolific rugby league player and good rugby player as well,
and he's probably one of the teachers that you looked

(15:05):
back on caught your attention and kind of worked out
how you worked.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
So you know, I have.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
To have to think about those days and think a
big difference was made by a couple of those guys.
I actually went off to teachers College after school. I
wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, and that
was I've described it as spectacularly unsuccessful. I only made
I made one placement at Campbell's Bay Primary, and I

(15:33):
sort of sitting out in the in the field at
lunchtime doing duty because as a as a trainee teacher,
you get s entailed on placements and they were standing
out in the in the field and the young boys
were playing cricket and one of them hit it to
me and I caught it and celebrated getting him out
and he started crying. So I thought, maybe I'm not
as empathetic because I need to be with one of

(15:55):
these kids. And then the next day I was sort
of standing out there with the whistle around my neck, thinking, jeeus,
this is this the next forty five years of my career?

Speaker 3 (16:03):
Does it feel quite right?

Speaker 4 (16:05):
So I ended up going to work flagging that had
a brief trip to Argentina with Rugby, and then went
and worked at a bank as a teller, so you know,
full circle really now, I often think to myself, you know,
in my role, what would eighteen year old Steve here
when I'm when I'm talking about things, And you know,
I sort of joined the.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Bank because it was a job that I.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Thought, look, you know interesting, you know, I just needed
something to pay the bills a little bit. Had an
amazing bank manager she recognized and me, I think that
because I love sport, the way she needed to talk
to me was in the same way as you know
coaches had, which is, you know, be on time, be prepped,
you know, put your best foot forward, conduct yourself in

(16:49):
the right way. And she did a brilliant job actually,
and you know, it was some real lessons there. There
was actually a run on the bank when I worked
there as well, watching the first week, so it was
the last run on a bank in New Zealand history.
It was Friday night and I thought, cheap is this
place is getting pretty busy? It was because there was
a and went to stay up until the early hours

(17:09):
of the morning because there was a rumor that the
bank was going to fall over. It was just that
a rumor and Interestingly, they ended up getting more deposits
in then they lost the previous day. But it's one
of those great lessons which I didn't appreciate.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
It at the time, but now when I.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
Run a bank, I'm pretty interested in things like, you know,
contingency funding plans and based lending for you know, the
lending stuff we went through with COVID and those sorts
of things. You know, because you can see it and
it is real. So yeah, sorry, long answer to a
short question.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
Definitely in sport, but only really later on that I
sort of had my eyes open to leadership possibilities and
maybe tried to find my own way that.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Were what a fascinating story. So did you did you
actually work in the bank before you went off to
law school?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
YEP?

Speaker 2 (17:57):
I did.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, yeah, I left.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
I left the bank which was United Building Society, which
got brought by Country Ye, that got brought by National Bank,
that got brought by A and zed.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
But yes I did.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
And I was really lucky in terms of a couple
of my really bright mates had gone off to Otago
and I was in regular correspondence and remember in these days,
as you all know, I was actually writing them letters
there was no texting or anything like that, and they
would write back and say, you know what a cracking
time it was, and how many people they'd met from

(18:28):
all over the country, and it just sort of really
rung true for me that this would be a big opportunity.
No one else in my family on either side had
been past school at fifteen, so there wasn't sort of
a well trodden pathway to go off to university some
of my mates that I met at Dunedin, but it
felt like the right thing, and actually one of my

(18:50):
best mates in the world.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
I was one of the first guys I sat next
to in the first lecture.

Speaker 4 (18:56):
And he's actually had a really massive impact on the
way that I've seen the world, but also his sense
of entrepreneurship and what he's done. But it's true about university.
You know, you can make some lifelong mates and they
have a huge impact. And that's what Otargo did for me.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I think those in my case, similarly Otago
University rugby teams and surf life saving crews. In my case,
the lifelong friendships that all these years later are still
very relevant. Where with Steve Djerkovich, the CEO of Kiwi Bank.
We'll be back in a moment, back with Steve Jerkovich,

(19:38):
the CEO of Kiwibank. We're just talking about university days.
But he came out of that law degree and went
and did I guess the stock standard appointment, which was
to go and work for a law firm in Auckland
in your case, Chief England Jew and you're about there
for about three years, I think. Does that sound about right?

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah, just under four Yeah, and Chief England Do as
it was known in those days, now known as Chief
in England. Well, I came out of university with you know,
okayish grades but not great grades, and I had a
lot of unsuccessful applications before I got a job. You know,
I'd have to check with my mum, but I think
it was north of eighty to get that first job

(20:19):
because come into an environment in that period of nineteen
ninety three ninety four in New Zealand economy was you know,
it was really tough going and hiring intentions, you know,
and particularly the really big firms had pulled back on
how many summer clarks and interns they were taking. So
you know, it was part of the environment, but it
was the great first job. One of the things I'd

(20:40):
say about the law, and one of the really good
early lessons was had a a couple of great partners
I worked for in a senior associate, and they sort
of taught me to sort of drop my guard a
little bit about having your work redlined and adjusted and
commented on, and ultimately I think that's helped me understand

(21:01):
that when it's done well, feedback is professional not personal.
You know, it's easy to get get into a situation
where you know, you think this piece of work is you,
whereas actually it's just a piece of work. And you know,
what they taught me was that it needed to be
good enough that someone saw value and wanted to pay
for it. And I sort of think that now that
time sheeting, sending the bill and getting the bill paid

(21:22):
was an excellent first discipline around if we're going to
send bruceon invoice, you better see the value in it,
Otherwise it's not coming back. But also working out where
if it was having impact and was creating value was
actually a really great lesson. But also, you know, the
first couple of years, everything you do is got big
red lines through it, and you know this is you
know this is too vague and cut this back and

(21:44):
get to the point, and and you know, you grow
some resilience off that. And I think, you know, lawyers
are sort of on the one hand, on the other hand,
you have to have to be able to think both
sides of the argument because you don't know which side
you're gonna be on.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
But also I.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
Think it does make you, you know, think through critical thinking
around how we're just trying to improve this thing. So let's,
you know, talk to people who might have a better
idea than us.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
And I think that's probably one of the lessons that's
persistent with me.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
I totally agree with you. Even now. I sit down
with people sometimes and I say, you know, we're we're
only talking about the performance here, not the performer. Yeah,
And I think some of today's can sometimes take that
stuff a little bit too personally. Yeah, And you and
I probably did back in our day. I don't recall,
but you obviously recall it clearer than I do. But

(22:33):
but sometimes you know, you need you need people who
care enough to come and have those conversations with you
when you're when you're a young fellow, because you learn
from it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:42):
Look, I think you had the nail on the head
only in really recent times as well as we come
across a team that helped us at the Chemiback executive team,
and one of the things, one of the really powerful
ideas they had was, you know, when you're talking about feedback,
you're saying, Hey, Bruce, I care about you enough to
let you know, and you know that might be letting
you know that's great and really love what you did

(23:02):
there and that was amazing how you included that, or actually, Steve,
I care about you enough to let you know that.
Actually I don't think you brought the best out of everyone.
You know, your ideas dominated not everyone felt like they
could belong and have their say, you know, so maybe
you want to think about that differently, you know.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
But if it's anchored and care and it.

Speaker 4 (23:20):
Is about the professional like as you say, and you know,
not the not the performer, the performance, it's super super relevant,
super interesting.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
And I think about it.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
In sport, you know, people will review things and you
get detailed analysis and what worked and what didn't work in.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
The interest of getting better.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
But you know, I can I can think back some
of that stuff bruised and it is sometimes takes a
bit of hindsight and a little bit of perspective over
the years to think back saying actually, what they were
trying to do was in the best interest of the
client and the firm, and I was just part of
that process.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, fantastic, good experience for good insights for young people
to pick up on too. You then went back to banking,
So so something attracted you back? What was it?

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of a backstory
to this, and I don't think she'll mind me sharing it.
So I'd actually got a job at bell Gully and
it was sort of in the process of joining bell
Gully and then the advertisement for ASB popped up. And
it was in the days when internet banking was just
this all seem but weird for younger readers, but internet
banking was just taking off. And like many Aucklanders and people,

(24:31):
ASB had been my bank, you know, from school and
those sorts of things, so down very strong markets here
in those days in Auckland, and the idea of going
to see what it was like because one of my
major clients when I was a lawyer was a m
Z bank and so I've done quite a lot of
banking and finance.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Law work, and I said to myself, well, you know,
it's be a good thing to try for a while.
You know what I what.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
I probably then knew, is that to get to the
very top of a law firm, in one of the
big law firms, you have to really really love the
law and I love the client outcome side of it.
You know that I love the ability to get things done,
but I don't think I deep deep down really loved it.
And when you're selling your time and time time's early

(25:17):
rate equals you know what you can deliver, you've got
to really love it. And you know, as I say,
I loved the elements of it, but I didn't deep
down think I really really loved it. And so the
idea of getting into a business and seeing how things
unfolded and how things working was really interesting. But anyway,
I got an interview with Lindley Wood, who's a quite
well known professional director but had a very very strong

(25:40):
career at ASP for a long time. I interviewed with her,
and in those days ASP's in the Auckland Council building
and her office had views over the north Shore and
over the Harbor Bridge, and I was thinking Jesus, this
doesn't look too bad. And so I was lucky enough
to get the job, and I was promptly sent down
twenty four floors to a little cubicle facing the wall.
So probably just shows that my due diligence wasn't what

(26:03):
it could have been. But ASP was a business really
on bit of a tere. It was growing really fast,
it was expanding nationally. Sir Ralph Norris was really driving
its digital capabilities, had a very strong sales and service
culture being built up by another great guy who went
on to become the CE Hugh Barrett. It had Barbara

(26:24):
Chapman on its leadership group, Ross McEwan who's running a
B now BHP director. So there was quite a you know,
there was quite a depth of impactful leaders that rolled
through ACB and then went on to c B A.
But for me, what I found was a couple of
great opportunities, particularly in tech, and it was off a
piece of advice that Sir Ralph gave me actually, which
was he said that banking is a three legged stool

(26:45):
of a career. You've got to understand technology, got to
understand the rules and regulations, and you've got to understand customer.
And so his career plan that he gave me over
a sausage role at one of the morning tea things
was you know, have you ticked those three boxes if
you're going to be a general manager in a bank,
and then you need to know those three things and
obviously legal it helped me. I went in technology. That

(27:07):
lastly is when I joined the ASP Securities and work
for a great GRAVIHI is also nor Share by Tim Preston. Yeah,
and you know a SB Securities got me a chance
to really understand wealth markets, equities, listed company environment and
for me it was a great launching pad learn heaps
off Tim.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
And in that different environment.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
So you know what I love about a bank in
terms of career is you know, I've been a lawyer,
I've worked in technology, I've worked in wealth, I've worked
in business banking. Now back at the executive level. You know,
you get careers within career. Yeah, and that's a lot
of those jobs obviously. You know if I applied to
you to be one of those, you'd say to me, look,
I don't see the history or the all the you know,
the referrable skills that would make you good in that job.

(27:49):
Whereas a bank if they've seen the way you roll,
seeing your energy, see what you're up for, they'll give
you a chance.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
So were you involved in the in the role out
of bank Direct. I remember bank Direct being one of
our probably our very first online banking offer and very
unique advertising cam paid. Were you a part of that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
I was in the in the house counsel element of it,
so helped to some of the legal agreements. Jane Freeman,
also well known professional director. Jane was the first leader
of a bank Direct and then also and occurson to
formerly of Zero.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
But now on a key we bank board ran bank
Director as well.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
What happened over time was that sort of standalone element
of a direct only bank really became the mainstream expectations
for all the banks. So you know, it kind of
couldn't survive on its own in a sense because actually
everything that those bank direct customers wanted now become the
needs of the main bank and so those things came
together over time. But it was a really visionary idea,

(28:47):
one of many from Sir Ralph at the time, and
you know, High Conviction moved into separate premise, you know,
had separate agreements, obviously separate brand as you touched on
separate advertising. You know, it was really a first in
that sort of white labeling of how a bank could be,
and taught us heaps of lessons about what customers would
do and what they were prepared to self serve on.

(29:10):
And you know, one of my former colleagues would famously
say self service is great service, and I think that's
where we are today.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
I suspect you know, ninety eight percent.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Of most of your listeners banking has done on the
app by themselves without a hassle.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Absolutely, It's funny how these things start where they end up.
We're going to talk about where today's banking ends up
in a few years time later on in the discussion.
But I know that you went away in the middle
of that sort of fledging banking career and did an
MBA in Sydney. Was that part time while you were
working over there, Yeah, it was so. I was.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
Actually I was supported by Westpac although Westpac Group were
a big, big supporter of the University of Sydney and
particularly the University of Sydney Business School, and so as
part of the talent planning, I was lucky enough to
get the NOD to undertake that in Sydney. So the

(30:03):
NBA I did was a joint vent between the University
of Sydney but Stanford, Indian Institute of Management, London School Business.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
So you did part time study.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
It was usually in two week blocks, sometimes a bit
longer and then obviously a thesis at the end. But
we went and we went and studied in Bangalore, and
studied in France and in London.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
When studied in the US, and.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
Most of the time it would be half the three
weeks would be in the classroom, the last half would
be in a placement with a company, so you know
Semantic in Stanford, the wine companies in the south of
France who were.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Reinventing their business model.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
So the whole sort of essence of the whole NBA
was about the life cycle of a business. And you know,
the French wine companies that have been going for centuries
are a classic example of you know, how you reinvent
yourself over time. But you know, a lot of states
are saying what a cool experience.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
So you so by then you'd moved on from the ASP.
I think you had a stint with Commonwealth Bank and
then west Pack. Have I got that right?

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
So I was at ASB and then I went to
c BA and worked out of Sydney, but in a
national role, and that national role was a massive eye
out and for me it was really a role where
were brought together five or six pretty disparate teams. Ye,
no love lost for a Keyweed coming over. And also
remember at that time conwellth Band had you know, Ian
the Rev. The had Sir Ralph Norris, Barbara Chapman, Ross McEwan,

(31:33):
Stuart Grimshaw. Yeah I think, I think, and a couple
of others that were Keywis. And so there's a real
feeling like the Commonwealth Bank of Australia had a few
too many Kiwis compared to Ossie's and their senior roles.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Even that was even the topic of a of a
couple of newspaper colins in Sydney at the time because
I was living at the time.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
So but what probably the big lesson for me was
the first time I'd really had to manage people in
different time zones that I couldn't see, and probably the
first time where I wasn't going into a business where
there was this really strong thread of what are we
about and what do we want to be and how
are we going to be? You know, that was being
sort of rebuilt at the time, and so you know,

(32:17):
big lessons learned like turned up in some places. It
was really clear they didn't know who I was, didn't
have much respect for what I was trying to achieve,
and probably at the time, particularly around sales and service,
that Ralph threw on really hard that you know, the
sort of prevailing view from my Aussie colleagues was of

(32:38):
this too shall pass, and I tried to convince them
that if I knew one thing about Sir Ralph and
Ross McEwan and a few others, as this wasn't going
to pass, so.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
You might want to get on the bus.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
And there was certainly a few times where Sir Ralph
dialed in as the CEO of the Comwealth Bank. You know,
there's thirty five thousand OD employees at the time.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
I think it was a bit of a shock for
a sales.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Meeting to have the CEO of the group, John Lennon
asked what year five things you were going to achieve
this week were, So you know that's spread pretty quickly,
and you know, it's an amazing bank where it is
now and it's this part of the world, and its
performance is really quite extraordinary in terms of you know,
making ten billion dollars a year. It's certainly a powerhouse

(33:21):
even on the global stage. So interesting to see where
it's got to.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Hey, what great lessons for a young fellow like you
to be able to sit alongside the Ralph Norris's of
the world, the Barbara Chapmans, some of the other names
you've mentioned. That's that's a heck of an opportunity in
any any young man's career, isn't it. It is?

Speaker 3 (33:39):
And I mean they are.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
I mean there's lots that's very similar about them all
as leaders, and I throw Hugh Barrett in there as
well as amazing guy. But also just what else they bring.
And I always think of it like a recipe. You know,
it's a mixture of ingredients, some strong and some subtle.
But for instance, you know, Barbara Chapman's power around empathy
and you know, understanding what's not being said was just incredible.

(34:03):
You know, huge drive for results, and you know you
run it like you own it and keep your life
in balance, you know, These are things twenty five years
on still ring in my head and you know the
moments where I feel like I really remember. Those leadership
impacts are the ones that you try and store and
put in the toolbox to try and do your best
job to recreate them when you can.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
If you if you consider your time at ASB and
west Pac, you touched on A and Z earlier and
putting Kiwi bent to one side for a moment. But
those big four banks, do you, having been an insider,
do you see material points of difference or are they
as we as we all sort of tend to say,

(34:47):
are they all a bit the same?

Speaker 3 (34:50):
That's a great question and a politically loaded one.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Sorry, Now I think, Look, I think there's differences in
the in the cultures, but they're more the same than
they are different. And I think that's partly driven by
really logical things, like you know, they're all listed on
the same market in Australia, they're all compared to against

(35:17):
each other by the same analysts. The New Zealand subsidiaries
will have significant influence on them from you do you
pick at Sydney or Melbourne?

Speaker 3 (35:27):
You know, so those things are the same.

Speaker 4 (35:31):
I think the vast majority of New Zealanders probably do
of saneness around the banks, and that's partly driven by
regulatory requirements, capital requirements.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Those sorts of things.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
Sure, but certainly what we've tried to do with Kiwibank
is kind of sail away from that simply on the
basis as you would understand, Bruce, is that if we
try and sail the same race, we'll just get run over.
You know, they've just got more horsepower, they've got more
money to spend.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Their advertising campaigns are bigger.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
So you know, the thing that really took me a
couple of years in this job to understand was the
power of its purpose. So for those that don't know
Jimmy and it's in about twenty five years ago, it's
really campaigned hard that New Zealand would be better off
if he had its own bank. And while this sounds
like a paid advertisement, I'm not really using it for
that purpose. So that idea that New Zealand would be

(36:25):
better off of its own bank, he pushed it so hard.
The rumor is that he went to the cabinet and
the Prime Minister at the time said, in slightly richer
language that I'm using like for goodness sake, just give
him his bank. And I've looked back at the time
and the headlines, you know, like ironically Bill English and
many others were like, this is going to be a
bus that's going nowhere.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Well we've got nearly forty billion.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
Dollars in assets twenty five years later, So you know,
no banks really grow on that fast over that sort
of time period before. But what's really interesting for me
after a couple of years in the job, was, you know,
if you've got a really strong authentic purpose about why
you were business, or why your initiative or what your
charity or whatever activity you've got, if you've got a

(37:10):
really strong authentic purpose and you can articulate that to people,
it's like a magnet for people.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
That's steel thread or and tell it until Mary.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
You know, like if you think about the way that
the rope's woven together to strengthen it, or a fishing net,
its strength is in the hideki key and the young leaves,
the new leaves, the old leaves, and the way that
they work together strengthens them. And I think it took
me a couple of years to work out that that
idea of a purpose of Kiwi being better off.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Could be really, really powerful.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
And I look around and see other businesses around the world,
like the Patagonias and others, and the more you sort
of looked for it, the more businesses with a strong
authentic purpose are the ones that shine. And I think
if you look through community, you know those businesses, organizations, charities, initiatives,
they've got a really authentic, persevering purpose have got a

(38:06):
unique advantage. And if I think about it in the
context of the banking market, you know, slogans come and go,
but purposes don't. And a new advertising campaign or a
new tagline under your brand and those sorts of things,
they're fantastic for a while, but they fade, Whereas the
idea of this place was. You know, you're going to

(38:28):
be better off if New Zealand's got its own bank.
And so now when I think about it and people
ask me about it, I kind of I don't think
purpose is woke or we were we anymore. I think
that performance and purpose can coexist, and they often do.
And if I think about the black ferns and the rugby,
I thought one of the great things they brought together
with joy and performance, and I think in business, we

(38:49):
can get a bit hopped on the trade off like, oh,
you're going to be woke or you're going to be commercial. Well,
actually you can be about purpose and that driest performance.
We've had five years of record breaking performance, and I
would like to think that our purpose and our discussion
around our purpose has never been stronger. And it's manifested
itself in b Corp and some other things which some
people care about and others people don't.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
I understand that. But actually when I.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
Speak to investors about being purpose lad and that's what
differentiates us, they get it. If you think about the
rise of ESG and other elements that people are worried
about in terms of a bank's impact, they have been
really good foils for those conversations. So sorry idea on
my high horse about that one, but it is. I'd
also admit for the first couple of years it hadn't

(39:33):
deeply enough resonated with me. And you know, sometimes it
just takes time and it takes a few people to
ignite it. But now when we're thinking about ideas, Bruce,
we will say to ourself, do you think key, we're
better off if we do that, And the idea that
a bank might be about making you better off as
well as itself is actually a pretty powerful idea because
I think most of the time people feel like you know,

(39:55):
and perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly, because I think the bank's
over COVID and in recent times have shown, you know
why they have got capital put aside for tough times
and actually haven't pushed people into receivership and mortgage and
sales like they could have based on the numbers that
they are actually here for the long term. And I
used the whole industry in that example. But I do think,
you know, that idea of bankers taking your umbrella away

(40:18):
on a rainy days one of ideas that's been around
for a while.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Gee, don't apologize about getting on your high horse. So
I think there's some fantastic lessons in there for anybody
running a business. We're with Steve Djerkovic, CEO of Kiwi Bank,
and we'll be back in a moment. Back with Steve Jerkovich.

(40:43):
As you guys all know, he's just been talking about
Kiwi Bank, but I want to talk about how he
got there. You were a very senior guy at ASB.
By the time you left, you were the head of
Business Banking. I know that there are a lot of
people surprised when you made the move.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
What prompted it, What prompted it? Kind of.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
I went through the process to put my best foot forward,
and you know, the board chose Victorian Short, who's the
CEO of a sp Yes, she's had a spectacular success,
and at the end of the day, you know, kind
of you realize that when boards are making these decisions,
they have to go with what they see is right

(41:30):
and what the right options for them are. And during
the period that I was in the process to see
who would be succeeding Barbara, the kV Bank job had
been around, and I've been really clear that I would
not be involved in two discussions that you know, I've
been with ASP for a long time.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Really treasure the support I got through.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Them, and ultimately, you know, it went away, that it
went and you've got to respect those choices and those preferences.
And ultimately, after that, the kV Bank job was still
open and I got approached about having an early discussion
about it, and I was a super interesting chat. It

(42:14):
was sort of one of those initial feeling out chats
around what the opportunity was, and I sort of learned
a couple of lessons from failed goes at a job where.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
And it's actually with Barbara.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
The first time when I was at WISPAC where I
felt like when I went into the process Bruce, I
tried to tell people what I thought they would want
to hear or what sounded like the right answer. Both
times I tried that unsuccessfully. I really said to myself
in the last time, in the last asb process, so
I was like, well, if I'm going to miss out,

(42:50):
I'm going to miss out being who I am. You know,
the feeling of missing out when you tried to sort
of shape the result versus be who you are and
be you know, put your best foot forward rightly or wrongly.
It left a really bit of taste in my mouth
and it was a really powerful lesson around that I
was going to say what I think, you know, respectful
of the people that are asking me the questions, but

(43:11):
be clear in my views about what I believe in,
because you know, that's that's what you should do, and.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
That's what I think I did in the previous one.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
But when I got to have the discussion with the
stakeholders at the Kiwi Bank one. You know, we got
into a really open and constructive conversation about what I
thought saw was a possibility for Kei Wei Bank, remembering
at that time it was sort of I think probably
fifteen billion dollars in assets now nearly forty, so it
was quite a lot smaller. But always felt like there
was a big opportunity for the Kiwi Bank, but it

(43:44):
needed scale and it needed to really grow, and I
sort of felt like the conversation we had with the
shareholders in New Zealand post acc and Super was aligned
to that at the time. And then I came home
and spoke to my wife Janine about it, you know,
two or three times, and she sort of said to me,
you know, you know, it's a lot with your partners,

(44:04):
they understand these things, and she was like, it's starting
to under your skin a little bit. And the more
conversations I had, the more sort of interest that I got.
But the really big thing for me was ultimately I
had to decide whether I was leaving ASB or I
was joining kee We back. And the answer was I
was joining k Wei Bank partly because I really wanted

(44:25):
to see what part I could play in growing this business.
I was attracted to its sense of the underdog. Whenever
I've done better in my career, it's been because I
feel like I'm either the underdog in a role because
you know, there's a lot of things to learn, I've
got to put my mind to it, and now I
think about it later. That's probably a bit of ADHD,

(44:46):
which is you get hyper focused on the things that
you think you need to work on and that you're interested,
and you feel like you're growing and you've got momentum.
And so I knew that I'm better in those circumstances
rather than being say a steward of a steady state business,
which again is a great skill, but probably not the
one that energizes me the most. And I sort of
thought to myself, you know, it feels like something that's

(45:07):
going to give me energy, feels like we've got the
right shareholders with a lot perspective over the medium term
to make a difference.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Why wouldn't I? And so?

Speaker 4 (45:18):
But as I say, the seminal question for me was
was I leaving or joining? And the answer was had
terrific support in the previous role, had loved it, had
made a lot of great friends, but it was time
for me to try and do something else and have
an impact somewhere else. And it's been fantastic six years
of really enjoying it, even in some moments like COVID.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
And you know, my definition.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
Of like terror is working on my own in a
room by myself with im to get any energy off.
So you know, I love the idea of flexible working,
but that I like coming to work and seeing people
and getting energy from them.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
But I can certainly see how people work in different ways.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
But you know, for me, that COVID period was for
all of us, you know, like I just unimaginable before
we got into it, and now.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
You look back.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
And I kept a few clips actually on my phone,
just knowing that I could refresh my memory about what
it was like, you know, with those empty streets and
you know how much people suffered.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, it was a tough time. Talking of tough times,
you've touched on the fact that that the banking sector
as a whole, you know, despite COVID, despite the recession
we're now in, we haven't seen this sort of wholesale
banks moving on indebted companies, indebted individuals like we might

(46:40):
have in the GFC or going way back like we
did as a result of the eighties share market crash.
That is that a function of of banks being more
circumspect or is it a function of banks having better
information or is it a different level of talent and training?
And what? What?

Speaker 4 (46:59):
What is?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
What has that led to? Because to me, that's one
of the you know, in a five year period that
has been pretty rough in a lot of ways, the
fact that the banks haven't moved on people has been
one of the highlights.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
I mean it's a great question and a really interesting perspective.
I think when I think about the difference of the
GFC and the behavior, the sort of prevalent view in
the bank was your early loss was your best loss,
so you take your medicine, write it off, move on.
And you know that's not something I look back now
and think, yeah, we can be proud of that, but

(47:33):
it was sort of a prevailing view, And I think
what was different there was the circumstances that led to
some people getting into difficult circumstances, and the GFC were
pretty unique to the.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Sort of circumstances they were in.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
The big difference, of course, was COVID was no one
had done anything wrong.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
You know, if you were running a tourism business.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
And no people and it was heavily anchored on New
Zealand tourism, or you know in a part of the
country you couldn't get to. You didn't do anything wrong,
your business was going to be under massive pressure, but
actually you went the cause of being over leveraged, or
getting your head to yourself for any of those other
things that may happen. So I think that there was
a universal set of circumstances that meant that the banks

(48:16):
looked around and said, well, we literally.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Are all in this together.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
I think the reserve being con treasury flooded the system
with money, and I think we're trying to wind that
back now. And I think the early response, well, no
one got it perfect. Firstly, I think the early response
was really strong, but I think most people with hindsight
would argue that it went on for too long. But
that gave the banks a strong sense of liquidity and

(48:42):
that things were going to be okay. I think one
of the really big game changes is that we did
a lot more like hundreds of thousands more outbound calls
as an industry than it ever done before, and they
were sort of inchered on this idea of Hay Steve,
do you need any help? And I still think a
lot of customers had said to themselves pre these days, like,

(49:05):
for goodness sake, let the bank know, because you know,
you never know how they're going to react. Was actually
off the back of hundreds of thousands of calls where
the bank was saying, okay, look, if we can help you,
we will. What do you want to do? Do you want
to extend?

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Do you want to break? Do you want to drop
your payments for a while?

Speaker 4 (49:18):
And know all the options that you know you're familiar
with meant that we built up a different set of
circumstances around how people might feel when they spoke to
the bank. And not everyone will feel that way, but
the vast majority of people, and I know I can
only speak of the kiwibank experience. So many people took
that phone call and said thanks, I really wanted to
know what my options were. You know, I don't need

(49:39):
it yet, but I might need it. And if I
think about the way that you know COVID unfolded, we
expected significant job losses. We all took these big impairments,
and actually that's not quite how it unfolded, and I
think it's probably tougher now in some ways than it
was then as we're coming out of it.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
And there's a great truism, I think, which is often
with problems.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
It's not the getting in, it's the getting out that's
the problem. And I think we're in that part of
the getting out that is often when you make a
misstep in business.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
It's easy to get into.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
A business, but it's bloody hard to get out of
it sometimes, And so I think that sort.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
Of changed the attitude of banks.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
We built way better systems, we did way more training,
and I can think about it in our own situation
and our own response to say, for all and scams.
Now we've got a much better infrastructure, and I know
we can do more and touch on that if you
want to, but we have a much better infrastructure around
how we respond in these circumstances, how we can talk
to people, how we can know where a call is

(50:37):
in the system. And you know, we've certainly got work
to do, and there will be listeners who think keep
we bank can do a better job, and one hundred
percent except there because we can and we're trying to.
But I think that really changed things around. He speaks
to the bank if you've got an issue, and actually
the banks are a little bit more let's see.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
If we can work this out. Now.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
We won't always be able to work it out, of course,
posts but you know, I think we're much more prime
to think about that as an option. And I also
think in the good times, actually a lot of people
got to head it on their payments, so they had
a bit of excess to draw on to go back
to where they're at. And I mean, and I think
also you've just got to accept, like crazy, unprecedented how

(51:16):
quickly the rates dropped and then how quickly the rates
came back.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Not many people have got a situation where.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
They can, you know, say that a used to that
will be were quite prepared for rates mortgage rates going
from tuesas to high sevens.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
That's a huge amount of money out of the economy.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
And I think the areas that you can see that
have suffered our retail, hospitality, people selling durable goods.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
You know, it's been very, very difficult for them.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Absolutely, And you sort of led me into what I
wanted to talk about next, which is, you know, I
remember earlier, earlier, this year, everybody saying survived till twenty five.
I also remember people saying, well, don't worry that we're
green shirts in October and November. We're now sitting in November,
and it's still pretty tough. In fact, the last couple
of weeks I think have been almost as slow as

(52:04):
the middle of the year was. We had a little
bit of a lift in between times, but it's still
pretty tough out there. And one of the things I
wonder if we don't talk about enough, is at a
government level, a local government level, a business level, and
a private level. I just think that people are carrying
too much debt and that's bloody hard excuse both language,

(52:26):
bloody hard to get out of. And it was a
good idea, as you've said at two percent, it's not
such a good idea at seven percent, and it traps people,
or traps businesses, trap it's even trapped the government. Right.
You can't move, you can't do the things you want
to do because of that debt burden that you've got
around in your neck. From where you sit, do you
agree with that comment or do you think I'm overstating

(52:49):
the issue.

Speaker 4 (52:50):
I think leverage is a delicate thing. Right, too much
of it is can be hard to handle. Not enough
of it probably you know, doesn't put enough fuel in
the tank. But look, I think you're right. I do
think that the we've got a lot of criticism when
we used to use it test rate that was eight
percent and more for free.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
As it turned out. You know, I'm not saying.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
We're you know where soothsayers or whatever actually turned out
that that was pretty close to where you need it
to be. But I think what happened during these circumstances
When you get tested eight you sort of say, oh,
that's one thing, but actually when you have to operate
your business or your household at you know, four times
the interest rate you're paying before, you know, I think

(53:34):
these Islanders has done an amazing job of keeping a
roof over their head. What suffered has been you know,
if you walk around obviously the example of my neighborhood
to walk around pompso me the amount of empty stores
where people have just said, you know, this is too tough.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
I don't want to work six and a half days
a week. I want to take all this risk for
the return i'm getting.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
You know, that has a knock onto the commercial property owner,
who in turn has another portfolio. So you know, individual
households kept the roof over their head, but the knock
onto a lot of those smaller medium businesses been really severe,
and I do think, you know, it is a function
of that. I think confidence has a massive impact, you

(54:17):
know how people feel like. I think we're going to
get a fifty point cut in the next couple of days.
I think that will help confidence again, but I still
think it won't be intill as you say, and I'm
thinking may during next year that will really see a
lift in activity. And that's been a long time of
hardgoing and people just get puffed, don't they, And you

(54:38):
know what you can do. I do think overall, and
I haven't read and I haven't read it in one
of your articles, but I'm sure you've commented on it.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
I think the.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
Focus on what we want to be and who we
can be over the next three to five years as
a country, as an economy, as a business environment has faded.
And I think we went through quite a long time
where the conversation between business and government was pretty adversarial.
And I think we've had a first year of government

(55:09):
that's been unwinding and pointing into the past about how
it's impacted the future. I think what we do need
is a really big vision about you know, in a
unifying vision about who we can be to generate some confidence,
and I think that's probably been lacking.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
I don't think business has stepped into the breach in
the same way as they have in Australia.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
If I read you know, I read the Australian Financial
Review pretty regularly, you know that voice.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Of the business in Australia is strong.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
It's often you know, commenting on social issues and in
the broader economic issues, not just what suits.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
It as a as a business.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
So you know, we know we have big, strong voices
with fantastic perspectives, and it's just using someone I greatly
of my Don Braid for instance. You know he's got
some clear views around infrastructure and things like that. You know,
the other people like Don. If we can bring their
voice forward, I think, you know, business can get behind
those ideas and I think, you know, maybe infrastructure is
going to be something that can help that. But I

(56:06):
do think new zealing businesses need to play a commensurate
part because they at the end of the day, they
are the ones that generate the economy and the benefits.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
If I was arguing with you, which I don't want
to do, if I took up the hat of business,
I'd say one of the things that's needed to enable
business to do that is that that clear vision from
the government, so as we all know that we're not
running down a blind alley. Yeah, how would you respond
to that?

Speaker 4 (56:35):
I think they they're trying to put the right guardrails
in place. I think even if the example that's in
the public arena about Kiwibank, that the Minister of Finance
has been open to all ideas about how a key
bank might grow, I think that's a really positive conversation.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
But we also need to pick the ball up and
run with it.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
We can't just rely on Minister of Finance, who's got
a lot of competing demands on air plate. Likewise Treasury
to provide everything. You know, we have to be a
business it's worth investing in. We have to get across
the New Zealand public that we will remain a Kiwi bank.
That actually, whether you're from you know, the previous government
or the current coalition, everyone's idea was it New Zealand's

(57:18):
better off of Kiwi banks bigger.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
So how do we bring that alive?

Speaker 4 (57:21):
How do we bring a party in who can help
and invest and help us grow. You know, I think
that's a classic example of putting up a clear line
of site, which is I'm open to the ideas. Now
you guys come back with some ideas and show me
what it works. But I've got some important things I
want to think about, which is, you're going to hold
onto your purpose and you're going to be a New
Zealand owned business.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
What can you do to guarantee me that?

Speaker 4 (57:42):
Well, actually most of those questions can be answered pretty easily,
but you just need that idea that let's get on
with it. And so you know, infrastructure is the same
but you know DSUs.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Housing, Yeah, a bank is solution to the housing challenges.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
No, I think we can play a messive part in it.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
But I also think in some of the infrastructure project
express that they're turning on and the tuning off of
appetite has made us a difficult investment proposition for overseas
companies right, which is, how do I know the rules
aren't going to change in two years when I'm building
something for ten years, and I think, you know, even
the public understanding of what a decent PPP looks like
in the sense of New Zealand still owns the asset,

(58:22):
but it is run by someone else, just like we
have to pay for schools to be maintained, in hospitals
to be maintained. PEPs have done that too well in
the past, you know, otherwise we're not going to be
able to bring these things to market.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
I think we need to get a few people around
the table, including people like you and Don Braid and others.
I just I hope there's hope there's somebody from the
government listening and listening to that suggestion, because we do.
I think we need more, as you say, the Australian experience.
We need we need to get business more involved in
helping to make some of those decisions. I mentioned at

(58:59):
the start that you were that you were the chair
of the Banker's Association, and I saw on the website
the banking sector now employs twenty nine thou people in
New Zealand. Do we underestimate the importance of the banking
sector when we look at the New Zealand economy?

Speaker 4 (59:18):
Yes, sometimes I think I think an aggregate we do underestimated.
But I also I also think you know, up to
us to convince the court of public opinion that we
deserve that spot, and it's often referred to a social license.
So I think, you know, the banks can always do
better in that space. But I mean, at the end

(59:41):
of the day, you know where we intermediate capital at
the simplest level, you come and give me some deposits
on lend that money to someone at you know, to
greed rate, and hope to get it back when I
need it. So I think banks have fallen into a
spot sometimes where they've tried to convince people, you know,
we're at the center of your world and we know
all the answers and things like that, whereas I think

(01:00:04):
most people across New Zealand would hope that their bank
was pretty near and visible other than when they really
need them. And you know, we could refer to that
as the moments that matter, where capitals in motion and
those sorts of things. So I think we can play
an important part in that space. But I think we
have to recognize that, you know, business people like you
and the businesses that you govern are the ones that

(01:00:26):
take the risk they're the ones that make it happen,
and so you know, we can play a part in that,
and I think we can play a.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Bigger part in it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
But we shouldn't misunderstand that actually it's New Zealanders.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
They're out there making it happen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Speaking of New Zealanders, you served some time on a
school board, you'll be one of the big employers of
the bright young things that come out of our high
schools and come out of our universities. What's your what's
your take on the caliber of young people coming out
of university into the banking sector today.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Look, we've got some incredibly talented young people that have
have joined the business. I don't think there's any out
If I think about my daughter's vintage at eighteen, she
had a couple of years of school where you know,
the way that she works, in the way she's wired.
Working from home was absolutely not for her, and I think,

(01:01:22):
you know, she's probably like quite a lot of kids
in that generation and many people working, which was hard
to stay motivated when you were getting energy from around people.
There was no way working from home was as structured
as it would have been in the classroom. The guidance
and support and infrastructure around that was hard done by
over that period, and I think it's going to take

(01:01:44):
us a few years to really recognize that impact. I
think an amplified the impact of social media as well.
You know, so that is a generation that are grown
up native to those things, and the toxic sides of
it are incredibly powerful, and the way that it amplifies
poor behavior.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Is quite dreadful at times.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
And I can see the start you're talking about the
Aussie legislation. I've got quite a lot of sympathy for it.
But also the other cliding perspective is you need a
venue where people can have this stay. So to take
your point on that as well, but I think probably
you know, like the kids out were always going to
come out, or young adults that were going to come out,

(01:02:25):
that were confident in themselves that had good communication skills
have flourished, probably more so because they stand out more.
I think there's a big group that just needed a
bit of guy on and support and you know, feedback
and opportunity to grow their confidence and social skills. And
I think they've been you know, I think they've been

(01:02:46):
dudded over years, and it's very hard to you know,
it's sort of like saying to someone, you know, you
get three years in your apprenticeship and I get five.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
You know, we both qualify at the end of our time.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
Well, actually, of course I'm going to be better after
five years of you know, practically understanding how these things work.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
So I think that's in quite big gaps. I think
they are. You know, we can do a lot more
to try and help them as well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
I think the illness is on the employer more to
help those kids.

Speaker 4 (01:03:14):
Yeah, but I also think, you know, we have to
look through their lens and understand their experience and perspective
because to try and have the same expectations of those
that didn't get that opportunity, I think it's a bit tough,
but we need to give them an opportunity to shine.
And you know, I trying the workplace to get across

(01:03:35):
the younger people or anyone really who's you know, might
be a big presentation for them more or whatever they're doing.
It might be a big moment just recognizing that you know,
they're amongst friends, that people are on their side.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
It's not a driver's test. You don't pass or fail,
you learn from it. There's people there.

Speaker 4 (01:03:51):
To help you, you know, and we've seen that right
across all sorts of age groups, of all sorts of genders.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
They are actually these big moments.

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
If you can be supportive and help people feel like
they belong, they will grow. And I think, you know,
we've got a generation of people who have been locked
up for quite a while that just probably need a
bit more support than they did previously.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Gee, that's hard to argue with, Steve, believe it or not.
We've run out of time. I've got another two hours
worth of questions, but they're not going to get they're
not going to see the light of day to day.
But I do have one more for you, as you
might expect, and it's the one I ask all of
our guests on leaders getting coffee. If you could be
the prime minister for a day, what's the one thing
you'd like to do?

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
It could be the prime minister for a day. It's
going to take more than a day, but I think,
you know, my focus would be about a sense of
possibility about you know, I think there's a really neat
time frame in sort of twenty forty, which is two
hundred years since the treaty, we should be thinking a

(01:04:52):
lot more about how we want that to look and
feel and what sort of society we're going to have.
And I'll steal a comment that I heard the other
day from Dame Roseanne Mayo, and she was thinking about
her career when she was younger, and the question she
asked herself is what do I want my house to
feel like when I'm eighty?

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
What do I want to be surrounded by? What I
want it to feel like?

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
And I thought it was just such a captivating way
to think about the future she wanted.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
And I think I'd probably try and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
Galvanize around that, because then I think you can tap
discretionary effort and say it doesn't all have to be
sold by government.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
We can all play our part absolutely well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
You've you've talked a lot about purpose, and I think
given that focus, that's not a surprising response and plenty
there for us to ponder, not only as individuals but
as a country. Steve Jakovic se Kimi Bank, thanks for
joining us on leaders getting coffee. It has been a

(01:05:53):
real pleasure having you today. As I said, I could
have talked to you for another couple of hours. Most
of us can only imagine how challenging it is to
run an organization of the size, complexity and importance of
a bank, and I'm very appreciative of you giving us
some of your time and telling your story and of
course sharing a little bit about the Tannia Dalton Foundation

(01:06:15):
as well. Thank you so much for taking the time
to do it. I know from experience when you do
all that charity work, not many people say thank you
and so for what you do in that space. To
you and the team at the Tannia Dalton Foundation, thank you.
Thank you for those If it's as.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
Well, thanks Brice. Great to be here and keep up
the thought provoking articles. It's always an interesting RNK good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Thank you, Steve. Finally, my leadership tip of the week.
We've spoke a little bit today about a busy person
taking extra time to serve on charities and school boards
or whatever else it might be, and it reminds me
of something I wrote in my book The Best Leaders
Don't Shout a few years back now, and it's something
for all busy leaders to keep in mind. Your kids
will remember that you were at the sports day or

(01:06:59):
the dance recital, long after the boss has forgotten that
you weren't at the office. Your kids will remember that
you were at the sports day or the day unrecitaled,
long after the boss has forgotten that you weren't at
the office. That's it, we're done for another week. Thanks
again for joining us on leaders Getting Coffee number thirty
two with our guests Theve Djerkovic C of Kiwibank. As always,
if you have any feedback, please get in touch at

(01:07:21):
info at leaders getting Coffee dot com. Remember that our
favorite charity is biked for Blokes dot co dot Nz
and we'll look forward to seeing you again soon with
another great leadership story. Until then, have a great couple
of weeks, weeks and we'll catch you next time.