October 28, 2025 • 9 mins
More MPs and longer parliamentary terms have been deemed key to modernising a decades old electoral system.
Fresh New Zealand Initiative research found 30 years on from the introduction of MMP, our parliament is in the need of a four year term and 50 more members.
That would take the Parliament to 170.
Newstalk ZB senior political correspondent Barry Soper joined the Afternoons team to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at be
Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We have been discussing MMP. It's almost thirty years since
it was introduced in nineteen ninety six and the New
Zealand Institute has suggested a few changes, some a bit
bolder than others, I've got to say, to discuss further.
We are joined by senior political correspondent Barry Soper. Good
to see you, Barry.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Good afternoon, lad. It's nice to be here.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So coming up on thirty years since MMP, let's just
look back. What was the mood in New Zealand that
led to this MMP change?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Well, it was it was all most arrived at by
a mistake because David Longy made a comment in one
of the debates he is having with Jim Bolger that
he would like to see a change to the electoral
system and several options were put up because Bulger talking
about his word and did the right thing when he
became Prime minister, and so several options were given him.
(01:05):
First past the post was out of the mix. But
you know we had this mixed member of proportional system.
Nobody understood it then unfortunately the trajics like me had
to understand it. So and it's not when you look
at it, it's actually quite an easy system to understand.
So you have, you know, the electoral MPs and list MPs,
(01:28):
and we always thought at the time that list MPs
we're going to be a lesser strength MP than the
elected MPs. But it's not the case. They don't differentiate
at all now, right.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, So you know, there seemed to be a big
wave of enthusiasm for it and was going to solve
all the problems you mentioned that there with the list MPs.
Has it played out as people expected? Has it played
out as it was sold in nineteen ninety five?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, if it is a house of representatives, I think
truly it is representative. I mean we've had people off
the doll going into Parliament and we've had all sorts
and or team chos. Who now is of course a mayor? Yeah?
And where was at Fukatai? Yeah? And you know he
used to keep the four Court clean, brushing them with
(02:18):
his dreadlocks.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I often think they're drunk in charge of a country.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well, you know, I often think of Muldoon was around.
He would turn in his ste in the sky to
see what all this was about. But look, it has
delivered a representative parliament. I guess I don't like the
overhang very much because some people are still not aware.
We've got one hundred and twenty three MPs at the
moment and the quota normally is one hundred and twenty
(02:46):
and this New Zealand Initiative report said that in fact
they would like to see fifty I think fifty more MPs.
Well please, I mean, I think we've got enough to
contend with now. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
But they say that there's not enough people for the
select committees, and that MPs are overworked, and that you know,
electorates used to be, you know, cover thirty five thousand,
now they cover seventy thousand, and that other countries of
a similar size have more MPs. So is there is
there something in that? I mean, do you think select
(03:19):
committees are working?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes? I do, yeah, I mean select committees they in
the fifties replaced the old upper house that we used
to have in parliament, and so legislation is usually tested
unless it is introduced under urgency. But you know, I
think back to when it started MMP. You saw Medea
(03:43):
old late friend Bob Jones started his party, the New
Zealand Party. They got twelve percent of the vote, and
I think it was nineteen eighty one they got twelve percent,
which is extraordinary really, and I'd remember saying to Bob
at the time, Mate, you've escaped. Luckily you haven't won
an electorate seat, so you don't get any seats in parliament.
(04:05):
And if you had occupied a seat in Parliament, you
wouldn't have liked it, Betty, I hated it.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, what about this idea of lowering the threshold to
three point five percent? Is that going to create all
sorts of chaos? Off there's lonings that get across that
threshold and then make it even more complicated potentially.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I think if you lower the thresholder five percent is
fairly difficult to achieve. And we saw after John Key
said that he wouldn't work with Winston Peters. New Zealand
first went out of office in two thousand and eight
for three years, but it's come back stronger than ever now,
so you know, there is a there's always been an
(04:43):
argument for a lower threshold, but I think five percent
is about right because you at least you get I
shouldn't say serious parties because a couple of them that
are in there now are not terribly serious in review.
But so you do get a few dregs in Parliament,
and that's certainly the case at the moment. But you know,
(05:04):
I think it is representative, and I think five percent
is the right threshold to have.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
So when you say it's representative, as Tyler was saying before,
is it representative when say, in twenty seventeen, National, you know,
get the most votes, but then New Zealand first Winston
comes along and chooses Labor to be to lead the government.
So is that representative?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Well, it's the first time it's ever happened under MMP.
I mean at that election. Bill English led the National
Party to a seven point lead over Labor on the
night of the election, and under normal circumstances you would
expect that it would be a Labor sorry, a National
(05:51):
government that would form the government. But you know it's
down to the negotiations and Winston I always said, you
better get used to the name just durn prime Minister
because I always felt that Winston would go with Labor
because people tend to forget that it was Bill English
(06:12):
that moved the motion to get rid of Winston Peters
from the National Part several years earlier, and so Winston
has a memory and you know, certainly Bill English's future
as Prime Minister depended on that memory and it wasn't
a good one. So you never got the job.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Now, back when they were first talking about MMP and
you know, selling it, there were some political now analysts
and people looking at the system were suggesting that it
wasn't really compatible with the multi seats, you know, because
then you've got the system, but then you've got this
sort of system to the side of it. I don't
think there's any movement really happening now to get rid
(06:52):
of those seats. But how do you think that's played out?
Because that's led to the overhangs and it's kind of
a complicated situation, isn't it. Within because yeah, within an
MMP situation, you've got this other thing happening.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You've got another thing. Look. John Key may well remember,
and the lead up to the two thousand and eight election,
said that he is going to get rid of the
Maori seats. When he got the job as Prime minister,
he brought in the Maori Party to the government and
to me that was his insurance policy that the Maori
(07:25):
Party that was formed of course by Tarry and Naturia
when she broke away from the Labor Party. You know,
she was of real strength in Parliament and a very
good MP. And I think John Key was quite deft
and doing a coalition deal with the Maori Party because
the whole of the country was covered. But as you say,
(07:47):
mat you know, the Maori seats are not really conducive
to m MP, but the scene is an add on
and we get to MP's in Parliament added to as
a result.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
So just finally, Barry, do you think if people knew
now what they know, whether they would have the people
that have voted for mpeep would have gone for it.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Was against it. I always like winners and losers, and.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
In fun election nights where it's just decided you've got.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So many losers becoming winners under the current system that
you may lose your seat, doesn't matter. Bugger it. I'll
be in Parliament anyway because the party likes me on
a high place on the list. But now I've got
used to it. I actually quite like it because it
is representative, there are flaws in it and the other
(08:36):
thing that they discussed, and I know you're running out
of time, but the four year parliament, that's another thing.
There won't be an MP in the place that wouldn't
vote for a four year parliament because they have a
job for another year. But it's not that simple. I
think we have a boom bust election cycle in New Zealand.
So you know, at the start of the three years
they build on what they campaigned on. The second year
(08:59):
is normally a policy year, and the third year is
campaigning again. So you've got boom bust elections and I'm
an advocate for four years as well.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Up seems to make sense, Barrie. It's a fascinating discussion
and thank you very much for your analysis. That is
our senior political correspondent, Barrrie Sober.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at be
Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We have been discussing MMP. It's almost thirty years since
it was introduced in nineteen ninety six and the New
Zealand Institute has suggested a few changes, some a bit
bolder than others, I've got to say, to discuss further.
We are joined by senior political correspondent Barry Soper. Good
to see you, Barry.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Good afternoon, lad. It's nice to be here.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So coming up on thirty years since MMP, let's just
look back. What was the mood in New Zealand that
led to this MMP change?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Well, it was it was all most arrived at by
a mistake because David Longy made a comment in one
of the debates he is having with Jim Bolger that
he would like to see a change to the electoral
system and several options were put up because Bulger talking
about his word and did the right thing when he
became Prime minister, and so several options were given him.
(01:05):
First past the post was out of the mix. But
you know we had this mixed member of proportional system.
Nobody understood it then unfortunately the trajics like me had
to understand it. So and it's not when you look
at it, it's actually quite an easy system to understand.
So you have, you know, the electoral MPs and list MPs,
(01:28):
and we always thought at the time that list MPs
we're going to be a lesser strength MP than the
elected MPs. But it's not the case. They don't differentiate
at all now, right.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, So you know, there seemed to be a big
wave of enthusiasm for it and was going to solve
all the problems you mentioned that there with the list MPs.
Has it played out as people expected? Has it played
out as it was sold in nineteen ninety five?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, if it is a house of representatives, I think
truly it is representative. I mean we've had people off
the doll going into Parliament and we've had all sorts
and or team chos. Who now is of course a mayor? Yeah?
And where was at Fukatai? Yeah? And you know he
used to keep the four Court clean, brushing them with
(02:18):
his dreadlocks.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I often think they're drunk in charge of a country.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Well, you know, I often think of Muldoon was around.
He would turn in his ste in the sky to
see what all this was about. But look, it has
delivered a representative parliament. I guess I don't like the
overhang very much because some people are still not aware.
We've got one hundred and twenty three MPs at the
moment and the quota normally is one hundred and twenty
(02:46):
and this New Zealand Initiative report said that in fact
they would like to see fifty I think fifty more MPs.
Well please, I mean, I think we've got enough to
contend with now. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
But they say that there's not enough people for the
select committees, and that MPs are overworked, and that you know,
electorates used to be, you know, cover thirty five thousand,
now they cover seventy thousand, and that other countries of
a similar size have more MPs. So is there is
there something in that? I mean, do you think select
(03:19):
committees are working?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes? I do, yeah, I mean select committees they in
the fifties replaced the old upper house that we used
to have in parliament, and so legislation is usually tested
unless it is introduced under urgency. But you know, I
think back to when it started MMP. You saw Medea
(03:43):
old late friend Bob Jones started his party, the New
Zealand Party. They got twelve percent of the vote, and
I think it was nineteen eighty one they got twelve percent,
which is extraordinary really, and I'd remember saying to Bob
at the time, Mate, you've escaped. Luckily you haven't won
an electorate seat, so you don't get any seats in parliament.
(04:05):
And if you had occupied a seat in Parliament, you
wouldn't have liked it, Betty, I hated it.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, what about this idea of lowering the threshold to
three point five percent? Is that going to create all
sorts of chaos? Off there's lonings that get across that
threshold and then make it even more complicated potentially.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I think if you lower the thresholder five percent is
fairly difficult to achieve. And we saw after John Key
said that he wouldn't work with Winston Peters. New Zealand
first went out of office in two thousand and eight
for three years, but it's come back stronger than ever now,
so you know, there is a there's always been an
(04:43):
argument for a lower threshold, but I think five percent
is about right because you at least you get I
shouldn't say serious parties because a couple of them that
are in there now are not terribly serious in review.
But so you do get a few dregs in Parliament,
and that's certainly the case at the moment. But you know,
(05:04):
I think it is representative, and I think five percent
is the right threshold to have.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
So when you say it's representative, as Tyler was saying before,
is it representative when say, in twenty seventeen, National, you know,
get the most votes, but then New Zealand first Winston
comes along and chooses Labor to be to lead the government.
So is that representative?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Well, it's the first time it's ever happened under MMP.
I mean at that election. Bill English led the National
Party to a seven point lead over Labor on the
night of the election, and under normal circumstances you would
expect that it would be a Labor sorry, a National
(05:51):
government that would form the government. But you know it's
down to the negotiations and Winston I always said, you
better get used to the name just durn prime Minister
because I always felt that Winston would go with Labor
because people tend to forget that it was Bill English
(06:12):
that moved the motion to get rid of Winston Peters
from the National Part several years earlier, and so Winston
has a memory and you know, certainly Bill English's future
as Prime Minister depended on that memory and it wasn't
a good one. So you never got the job.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Now, back when they were first talking about MMP and
you know, selling it, there were some political now analysts
and people looking at the system were suggesting that it
wasn't really compatible with the multi seats, you know, because
then you've got the system, but then you've got this
sort of system to the side of it. I don't
think there's any movement really happening now to get rid
(06:52):
of those seats. But how do you think that's played out?
Because that's led to the overhangs and it's kind of
a complicated situation, isn't it. Within because yeah, within an
MMP situation, you've got this other thing happening.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You've got another thing. Look. John Key may well remember,
and the lead up to the two thousand and eight election,
said that he is going to get rid of the
Maori seats. When he got the job as Prime minister,
he brought in the Maori Party to the government and
to me that was his insurance policy that the Maori
(07:25):
Party that was formed of course by Tarry and Naturia
when she broke away from the Labor Party. You know,
she was of real strength in Parliament and a very
good MP. And I think John Key was quite deft
and doing a coalition deal with the Maori Party because
the whole of the country was covered. But as you say,
(07:47):
mat you know, the Maori seats are not really conducive
to m MP, but the scene is an add on
and we get to MP's in Parliament added to as
a result.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
So just finally, Barry, do you think if people knew
now what they know, whether they would have the people
that have voted for mpeep would have gone for it.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Was against it. I always like winners and losers, and.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
In fun election nights where it's just decided you've got.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So many losers becoming winners under the current system that
you may lose your seat, doesn't matter. Bugger it. I'll
be in Parliament anyway because the party likes me on
a high place on the list. But now I've got
used to it. I actually quite like it because it
is representative, there are flaws in it and the other
(08:36):
thing that they discussed, and I know you're running out
of time, but the four year parliament, that's another thing.
There won't be an MP in the place that wouldn't
vote for a four year parliament because they have a
job for another year. But it's not that simple. I
think we have a boom bust election cycle in New Zealand.
So you know, at the start of the three years
they build on what they campaigned on. The second year
(08:59):
is normally a policy year, and the third year is
campaigning again. So you've got boom bust elections and I'm
an advocate for four years as well.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Up seems to make sense, Barrie. It's a fascinating discussion
and thank you very much for your analysis. That is
our senior political correspondent, Barrrie Sober.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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