Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We are talking about the gaming industry in New Zealand.
There is an editorial in The Herald today pushing the
government for more support for this industry to better compete
internationally with some of the other gaming studios. On the
line right now is Duan Mutu. He is widely regarded
as one of the most influential people in the video
game industry here in New Zealand. He's an expert in
esports as well and is on the founding board of
(00:38):
the New Zealand Esports a Federation. He joins us on
the line now, Duan, very good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You good to be on the show, and good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
What are some of the successes out of New Zealand
in terms of games.
Speaker 5 (00:53):
Look, when we think about gaming, if we look at
the size of the sector, we think about globally, what
you're really chasing and saying that's close to three hundred
billion right now and that's meant to grow to in.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Twenty thirty two over five hundred billion.
Speaker 5 (01:06):
If we look comparatively to how we're going as a
video game sector in New Zealand, and really that's that's
what we're talking about. We are growing and this year, look,
we achieved great results looking at closer to seven hundred
and fifty million and that will get to a billion.
But if you look at that in compared it to
the global stats, we are still way behind and there's
lots of reasons for that. So whilst it's a it's
(01:28):
a good story, we need support from the government to
really make it a great story.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
So what are the games that are successful for us now?
Because there's there's Grower Garden, isn't there There's a few
others that have that have gone great.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
We've had some great success stories.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
We've got some great studios, I mean some of the
household studio names you know, grinding Gear games, Pickpock that
internationally renowned. And then also we've had, you know, a
game called Icarus that was number one in the world
on Steam, which is where you purchased most of the
games from. So the story of New Zealand and the
quality is there. But again when you look at us
from a you know, small market five million, we just
(02:07):
don't have this. What we need to push to push board,
and naturally the challenge when you look at other markets
like Australia and other sectors that are sorry other markets
around the world that are comparative in size and what
they're getting in the way of investment. So quality is there,
but the government haven't got behind it in the way
they need to, and that is where we're starting to
(02:27):
lose talent and opportunities to the other players.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Is that the big danger here dwe is that you
get the likes of grinding gear that you mentioned, and
rocket Works is another one, and there's a few other
big gaming studios here in New Zealand, not so big
on the international stage, but they've got that reputation that
they say, we can get a better deal in Australia
and we can attract more talent if we base ourselves off. Sure.
Is that the danger that we're facing right now.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
That's definitely the danger.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
So you know, going back a few years which I
was involved with this, I mean, we really pushed any
dealing government to sort of champion early and we were
advanced versus where Australian counterparts were and then we missed
the boat, you know, in my opinion, and then the
Australians came out and ultimately offered thirty percent rebate on tax,
plus each of the states also offer a rebate. So
(03:14):
what you're talking about is, you know, somewhere up to
potentially forty percent, and we've only just implemented our twenty
percent rebate here in New Zealand, right, so we're already behind.
And then you think about currency, you think about the
talent the pool to go to Australia anyway, and that's
our closest you know ally, that's our challenge and so
we need to have you know, more in the way
(03:34):
of government to support it. When you think about the
rebates versus our neighbors next door.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
So we're in danger of whole successful key we gaming
companies just up upping sticks and moving their whole operations
to Australia.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
We are and we've seen that.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
To become really honest with you, we've seen that already
play out where some of the bigger students that I
don't want to speak on behalf of them specifically, you know,
by by name, but we're starting to see that where
you can you know, open up you know, a studio
or a party of student offshore and open up those
incentives and then if you look at what happening in Australia,
if you're if you're a young one coming through and
obviously we need more talent here in New Zealand, they're
(04:11):
looking and going well, actually, you know Australia because there's
more money there because they're offering these incentives, which obviously
goes back to the bottom line, and then the employees
they want to go offshore and then take up those opportunities.
It's not only the studios themselves, but it's actually the talent.
The New Zealand talent we have here. We can't retain them,
so we end up with a skills sortage.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
And that's a challenge as well.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
So it's not just as studios, it's actually the talent
that we're creating here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
What are the opportunities when it comes to the gaming
industry and esports day and obviously you're heavily involved in
esports in New Zealand. Does that tie in with the
strength of our gaming industry. If we don't have a
strong industry here, then that becomes harder to attract those
big esport events.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Look, there's slightly different in regards to you know, what
they are.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
In other words, you know, we look at studios, we're
creating games. And to your point, I've been around esports
a long time. As a sector within esports, I'd say
we're actually very strong because we have a national federation
which is actually globally renowned.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Because partners don't do that.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
So I'd say we're actually advanced in the esports sector
and we should leverage some of that, I guess capability
and support that we get from the government. But you
see with the government, they look at that as a sport,
so it's a different funding vehicle versus studios which come
under rebates and much more like the film sector. So
whilst they're tied, i'd say they're slightly different because one
(05:30):
is fundamentally a sport and follows that trajectory. One is
more of a you know, a creative pursuit in a
business pursuit.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
So, apart from rebates, what else could be done to
bost of this sector. Do we have strong domestic training
pathways into the gaming sector? Is it easy to get
skilled up in New Zealand so you can join a
major company or start a starter company and get amongst.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah, look, what I'd say is I think one, if
you're out there, we have a various range of studios, right,
I think you know roughly we're not on I looked
at it.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
We had sort of around sixty.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Studios themselves, but some of those studios are sixty plus studios,
but they are right the way to the big ones
we mentioned the top right through the sort of one
or two of us that want to develop games. The
great thing about developing games, and this is why should
be so strong at a governmental level, is most of
the revenue is offshore. So we look at ninety ninety
five percent of the revenue that's attracted for these games
(06:28):
comes from offshore markets.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
So if you are at.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Home, you can code, you can create your own studio
by yourself and attract international international money, right like fundamental
And we know it's tough here. So we're talking about
instead of being landlocked to the country or the five
million people here, you actually open yourself up to this
global market. Most of those markets that are big, the US, Europe, Asia,
(06:51):
pacifics on our doorstep.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
And so I'd say that's part of it.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
So you could go out and become your own studio
or own business owner. I will say that we've really
developed in the last couple of years, growing the talent,
so that's exciting. We do see now some investment people
like CODE who are bringing through the young ones who
are really interest did in upskilling and game manufacturing development,
all those things that we need in the sector.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So I'd say in that regard, good, But what you
don't want to.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Do to my first point is get to a point
where all that talent is offshore and we can't grow
either as a standalone studio that wants to grow or
as a talent coming through. And then I think the
other thing that we have going for us is people
like us as people. You know Kiwi's, you know, we
have our indigenous storytelling, you know see Maori. We are
(07:38):
liked around the world. What we need from the governments
well is not just money. We need to make sure
that our studios are shown around the world. And so
I spent a lot of time in the Middle East.
That's the sort of the mecha of gaming at the moment,
and we need to make sure that we have trade
missions up there that don't just talk about agriculture and
our traditional fields. We want to be saying, look, we
have great studios, great talent, how can we.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Get into those markets?
Speaker 5 (08:01):
And you know, part of the jouney I had a
month ago was actually doing that to make sure we
could open up some pathways for our studios and talent
so we can tell that story in those bigger markets.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
So, you know, just to sort of bring this all together,
what specifically do you want to see the government do
around the gaming industry?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, look, I think what we really want to do
is if we look at it, we want to make
sure that we want government support and incentives.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
So we want to strengthen notse.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
How do we get tax rebates, grants, subsidies for hiring,
so that's on shore. We want to make sure that
it's appealing for some of the big studios and talent
to want to make New Zealand a base and we're
seeing that with the movie sector. How do we attract
some of the household names and studios down here in
New Zealand. We want to make sure that we have
collaborations with the biggest publishers. I mean you would have
(08:52):
seen overnight the big news or the last couple of nights,
is that EA was acquired by the Saudias for fifty
five billion.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
How do we strengthen both our pathway over there?
Speaker 5 (09:03):
Ye have big, big, big money, and we want to
make sure that we have a focus of those trade
machines and international showcases where the government can take our
studios offshore into these markets which happen all over the
world to showcase not only the New Zealand Inning story,
but the New Zealand ink story in our game development sector.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Really good to get you on, Really appreciate your expertise
and we'll catch up with you very soon.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah, thanks so much, Jean, great afternoon you too.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That is Dwan Mutu, head of New Zealand Esports and
heavily involved in the gaming industry.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
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