Security guards working in Emergency Departments are hoping to get more powers to handle rising aggression.
The Security Association says verbal and physical violence towards hospital staff has been growing across the board.
It's reporting more frequent aggression and more use of weapons, like knives.
NZ Security Association CEO Gary Morrison joined the Afternoons team to explain further.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks. The'd be
follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Do we need to give more powers and equipment to
hospital security guards? One hundred and eighteen eighty is the
number to call. But on the line right now is
Gary Morrison. He's the CEO of the New Zealand Security Association. Gary.
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi, Madam Tyler, Thanks for talking to us today.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Gary.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hey, how much worse is the violence and dangerous behavior
getting and why do you think it's getting worse?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Well, it's really happened since I think since COVID days,
and what we've seen is that there's a less tolerance
society these days. There's far more aggression out there, both
verbal and physical. We don't have any stats on what
sort of increased there has been other than just the
information coming through. So I note in Sydney some hospitals
just on reporting there and they're talking about a sixty
(00:58):
percent increase in violent assaults etc. Wow over the last
five years. So it is quite substantial and I'd suggest
ours would be very very similar.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
And is that related to mess and fetamine news?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Certainly that's part of it and I heard you you're
both talking earlier on and it drugs, it's alcohol. It's
a very stressful situation and accident to the emergency, you
often have associates coming in who are under the influence
as well, and also mental health issues as well. It's
a compounding issue. It's not just one single factor. It
is certainly compounding.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
What increased powers do you you want? Would you like
for hospital security?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I know you are a very fan of very much
a fan of tasers. That's not the suggestion or not
where were go go for hold. We don't want anything
in the wave of weapons that would actually aggravate the situation.
What we are looking for is the power where we
can actually detain offenders, but I stress when it's safe
(01:57):
to do so, and that could potentially involve use of
handcuffs if it became necessary. But the ability to detain
offenders where it's appropriate, where it's safe to do so,
and importantly, where the security staff has the necessary skills,
training and ability to keep people safe from that situation.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So we talking about a hospital prison here, a brig
type situation.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Ideally, there should be an area where you can safely
take that the offender too or offenders and keep them
out of the vicinity. The ideal is to actually get
them completely outside, and first approach should always be to escalate,
try and talk to them, get reason come across, calm
them down, and ideally leave the site is the perfect outcome.
But if there is a need to actually step in
(02:42):
and detain somebody, right in the middle of an A
and E is probably not the right place to be
trying to do that and detain the defender. So ideally
there should be a safe room we can take them
to hold pending police arrival, and that's assuming police can
attend in a prompt fashion.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
What's the turnover like for these security guards at hospital Gary.
I mean, just reading the story and listening to what
you're saying now, it seems like an incredibly stressful job
and what they have to deal with without the right
equipment toward the right powers to detain. Do you see
quite a lot of turnover in those roles.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I'm not an employer, so I don't generally sort of
face that situation, but I'd suggest it's not any higher
than across the general security industry. A lot of security staff,
particularly with their customer facing face those same risks on
a day to day basis as well.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
What kind of extra training would you need for security staff, Gary,
if they're going to be cuffing people and imprisoning them
in the hospital.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
It's the ability to carm and restrain people. It is
quite in depth training. It is not going on a
one or two day course. It's not basic judo knowledge
or similar. There is quite a lot of skill involved.
You have to be able to do it safely and
ensure that you keep treating yourself safely first, but then
the safety of defender as well. So it's quite a
comprehensive package. We have got a program developed and ready
(04:02):
to roll, but we need to have those powers first
to a line with that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's just confirming Gary. At the moment, those security guards
do not have any power to detain. They don't have
the handcuffs. We know that, but there is no ability
for them if it's a collective there's a couple of
security guards there to take someone down who's threatening people
with a knife. There is not that ability for them
to do that under the legislation.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
In general terms, there are exceptions to that, and it
comes back to keeping people safe and you can step
in an absolute emergency situation. But certainly we would encourage
our security starts to keep themselves safe first, keep other people,
keep the public safe is their priority.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
So right now, if there's a disturbance and you know,
patience or hospital staff are threaten to security, what do
they do? They yell until they get out the door,
they push them out the door. What do they do?
Lock things up, go on lock down and call the police?
What's the procedure?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
There will be a range of procedures based on how
serious it is. Certainly if it is getting extremely violent,
certainly police attendance is required. A lockdown is POTENTI an
option as well. But as I said earlier, the escalation
is the ideal of outcome, and in a lot of circumstances,
security staff can use their verbal skills. They can actually
talk to the offender or offenders to get them to
(05:21):
understand it's not helping the situation, essentially penalizing potentially their
major they've come in with, it's impacting other people. And
once they can see reason, often you can actually get
calmed down or ideally like say leave the sight, which
removes the problem from the immediate For something, what.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I don't understand is why they are angry. What are
people angry about? What are the flash points that cause
people to behave like this.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Often it's a wait time, and we're all aware that
there are increased wait times when you go into A
and E these days. I experienced it last year where
I was told it's a six hour weight. The immediate
thing you do is react to that. Why are getting
priority treatment? And where you've got people who may be
impacted by alcoholor drugs, that inflames the situation. They get
extremely impatient and that just effectively wine's situation up. So
(06:11):
if you can talk with reason and you can to
understand what the impact is. Again, that comes back to
the ideal situation.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So in the perfect world, would it be that there
would be a police officer in every hospital with the
full powers of a police officer, Because this to me
seems like slightly blurs the lines between a police officer
and a security guard.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I think you have to come back in that situation,
what is the best out or best use of our
police and being in that situation is not the ideal
outcome for their resources. We know they're limited. I think
having a highly trained, skilled security staff who can confident
the situation. To work with the police, work very closely,
work with the hospital management so they know exactly what
(06:55):
the protocols are would be a far better use of
security resources. And the reality of security staff are paid
significantly less in police, so again better utilization of the funds.
But you've still got well trained, very capable staff who
could handle that situation.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
How does it work overseas? Are there overseas security guards
and hospitals with these powers and is it working?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I can actually answer that, but certainly there are a
number of examples worldwide where security staff perform a lot
of functions like that and very successfully and have very
good relationships with the authorities as well.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, well, I mentioned in the United States, it wouldn't
be pepper spray and tasers. It would be in cuffs.
It'll probably be.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Exactly and we don't carry guns. We're not advocating for that.
We don't see that as been the solution. And you
can say the same about tasers. You can say the
same about purpers phrase. The experience offshore is that often
aggravates the situation rather than calms it down. Certainly, pepers
phrase there are significant risk to other people who are nearby. Yes,
of course tasers purpers phrase can be taken off the
(08:02):
person who's carrying them, used against them, and it just
tends to aggravate the situation. Particularly in the New Zealand environment.
We we're not used to carrying Chidney guns. We are
seeing an increase in weapons. But I think going down
that track would be a very very poor move in
the wrong way to go.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So if someone's got a knife, though, what force do
you use against someone that's in an insane emergency room
with the knife?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
We would strongly suggest you don't. You call the police,
You get other people to attend, potentially look at the
lockdown situation, get people out of the harm's way. You know,
I've been in security on my life. I wouldn't try
and take on an offender if carrying a knife.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So the people you're coughing would not be the knife people.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
No, it's where it's safe to do so. Using situational awareness,
you're aware of what the situation is. Are they likely
to be carrying other weapons? Are there other people or
associates with them who may get involved? Are there other
objects that could be used to the weapon against you
within that situation as well? Again, I was just referring
to Sydney hospitals before. A lot of those incidents include knives, etc.
(09:08):
That's scissors, yeah right, probably present in the excellence of
the emergency rooms.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, but there must be situations where there's someone that
brings out a weapon and they're not threatening that where
the security guard has to get in between the person
with the weapon and another patient or someone that's working
in the hospital. I mean, that must be something that
obviously could potentially happen, and in that case, would the
(09:34):
security guard be duty bound to put themselves in harms way.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
They have to make a judgement call on what's safest
for them, and their own safety is a priority because
if they get injured, they're out of the picture effectively. Yes,
they can't be someone support, they can't be there trying
to protect other people. So that becomes a judgment called
based on how serious that situation is. If they are
comfortable that they've got the necessary skills to try and
(09:59):
escalate it be escalated or to take down their fender,
perhaps that's the right move in that situation, but there'll
be a lot of circumstances to consider.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Gary. Thank you very much for having a chat with us.
That is Gary Morrison, hit of the Security Associations.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
For more from News Talks, ed B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks. The'd be
follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Do we need to give more powers and equipment to
hospital security guards? One hundred and eighteen eighty is the
number to call. But on the line right now is
Gary Morrison. He's the CEO of the New Zealand Security Association. Gary.
Good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi, Madam Tyler, Thanks for talking to us today.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Gary.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hey, how much worse is the violence and dangerous behavior
getting and why do you think it's getting worse?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Well, it's really happened since I think since COVID days,
and what we've seen is that there's a less tolerance
society these days. There's far more aggression out there, both
verbal and physical. We don't have any stats on what
sort of increased there has been other than just the
information coming through. So I note in Sydney some hospitals
just on reporting there and they're talking about a sixty
(00:58):
percent increase in violent assaults etc. Wow over the last
five years. So it is quite substantial and I'd suggest
ours would be very very similar.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
And is that related to mess and fetamine news?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Certainly that's part of it and I heard you you're
both talking earlier on and it drugs, it's alcohol. It's
a very stressful situation and accident to the emergency, you
often have associates coming in who are under the influence
as well, and also mental health issues as well. It's
a compounding issue. It's not just one single factor. It
is certainly compounding.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
What increased powers do you you want? Would you like
for hospital security?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I know you are a very fan of very much
a fan of tasers. That's not the suggestion or not
where were go go for hold. We don't want anything
in the wave of weapons that would actually aggravate the situation.
What we are looking for is the power where we
can actually detain offenders, but I stress when it's safe
(01:57):
to do so, and that could potentially involve use of
handcuffs if it became necessary. But the ability to detain
offenders where it's appropriate, where it's safe to do so,
and importantly, where the security staff has the necessary skills,
training and ability to keep people safe from that situation.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So we talking about a hospital prison here, a brig
type situation.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Ideally, there should be an area where you can safely
take that the offender too or offenders and keep them
out of the vicinity. The ideal is to actually get
them completely outside, and first approach should always be to escalate,
try and talk to them, get reason come across, calm
them down, and ideally leave the site is the perfect outcome.
But if there is a need to actually step in
(02:42):
and detain somebody, right in the middle of an A
and E is probably not the right place to be
trying to do that and detain the defender. So ideally
there should be a safe room we can take them
to hold pending police arrival, and that's assuming police can
attend in a prompt fashion.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
What's the turnover like for these security guards at hospital Gary.
I mean, just reading the story and listening to what
you're saying now, it seems like an incredibly stressful job
and what they have to deal with without the right
equipment toward the right powers to detain. Do you see
quite a lot of turnover in those roles.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I'm not an employer, so I don't generally sort of
face that situation, but I'd suggest it's not any higher
than across the general security industry. A lot of security staff,
particularly with their customer facing face those same risks on
a day to day basis as well.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
What kind of extra training would you need for security staff, Gary,
if they're going to be cuffing people and imprisoning them
in the hospital.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
It's the ability to carm and restrain people. It is
quite in depth training. It is not going on a
one or two day course. It's not basic judo knowledge
or similar. There is quite a lot of skill involved.
You have to be able to do it safely and
ensure that you keep treating yourself safely first, but then
the safety of defender as well. So it's quite a
comprehensive package. We have got a program developed and ready
(04:02):
to roll, but we need to have those powers first
to a line with that.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's just confirming Gary. At the moment, those security guards
do not have any power to detain. They don't have
the handcuffs. We know that, but there is no ability
for them if it's a collective there's a couple of
security guards there to take someone down who's threatening people
with a knife. There is not that ability for them
to do that under the legislation.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
In general terms, there are exceptions to that, and it
comes back to keeping people safe and you can step
in an absolute emergency situation. But certainly we would encourage
our security starts to keep themselves safe first, keep other people,
keep the public safe is their priority.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
So right now, if there's a disturbance and you know,
patience or hospital staff are threaten to security, what do
they do? They yell until they get out the door,
they push them out the door. What do they do?
Lock things up, go on lock down and call the police?
What's the procedure?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
There will be a range of procedures based on how
serious it is. Certainly if it is getting extremely violent,
certainly police attendance is required. A lockdown is POTENTI an
option as well. But as I said earlier, the escalation
is the ideal of outcome, and in a lot of circumstances,
security staff can use their verbal skills. They can actually
talk to the offender or offenders to get them to
(05:21):
understand it's not helping the situation, essentially penalizing potentially their
major they've come in with, it's impacting other people. And
once they can see reason, often you can actually get
calmed down or ideally like say leave the sight, which
removes the problem from the immediate For something, what.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I don't understand is why they are angry. What are
people angry about? What are the flash points that cause
people to behave like this.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Often it's a wait time, and we're all aware that
there are increased wait times when you go into A
and E these days. I experienced it last year where
I was told it's a six hour weight. The immediate
thing you do is react to that. Why are getting
priority treatment? And where you've got people who may be
impacted by alcoholor drugs, that inflames the situation. They get
extremely impatient and that just effectively wine's situation up. So
(06:11):
if you can talk with reason and you can to
understand what the impact is. Again, that comes back to
the ideal situation.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So in the perfect world, would it be that there
would be a police officer in every hospital with the
full powers of a police officer, Because this to me
seems like slightly blurs the lines between a police officer
and a security guard.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I think you have to come back in that situation,
what is the best out or best use of our
police and being in that situation is not the ideal
outcome for their resources. We know they're limited. I think
having a highly trained, skilled security staff who can confident
the situation. To work with the police, work very closely,
work with the hospital management so they know exactly what
(06:55):
the protocols are would be a far better use of
security resources. And the reality of security staff are paid
significantly less in police, so again better utilization of the funds.
But you've still got well trained, very capable staff who
could handle that situation.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
How does it work overseas? Are there overseas security guards
and hospitals with these powers and is it working?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I can actually answer that, but certainly there are a
number of examples worldwide where security staff perform a lot
of functions like that and very successfully and have very
good relationships with the authorities as well.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, well, I mentioned in the United States, it wouldn't
be pepper spray and tasers. It would be in cuffs.
It'll probably be.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Exactly and we don't carry guns. We're not advocating for that.
We don't see that as been the solution. And you
can say the same about tasers. You can say the
same about purpers phrase. The experience offshore is that often
aggravates the situation rather than calms it down. Certainly, pepers
phrase there are significant risk to other people who are nearby. Yes,
of course tasers purpers phrase can be taken off the
(08:02):
person who's carrying them, used against them, and it just
tends to aggravate the situation. Particularly in the New Zealand environment.
We we're not used to carrying Chidney guns. We are
seeing an increase in weapons. But I think going down
that track would be a very very poor move in
the wrong way to go.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So if someone's got a knife, though, what force do
you use against someone that's in an insane emergency room
with the knife?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
We would strongly suggest you don't. You call the police,
You get other people to attend, potentially look at the
lockdown situation, get people out of the harm's way. You know,
I've been in security on my life. I wouldn't try
and take on an offender if carrying a knife.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So the people you're coughing would not be the knife people.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
No, it's where it's safe to do so. Using situational awareness,
you're aware of what the situation is. Are they likely
to be carrying other weapons? Are there other people or
associates with them who may get involved? Are there other
objects that could be used to the weapon against you
within that situation as well? Again, I was just referring
to Sydney hospitals before. A lot of those incidents include knives, etc.
(09:08):
That's scissors, yeah right, probably present in the excellence of
the emergency rooms.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, but there must be situations where there's someone that
brings out a weapon and they're not threatening that where
the security guard has to get in between the person
with the weapon and another patient or someone that's working
in the hospital. I mean, that must be something that
obviously could potentially happen, and in that case, would the
(09:34):
security guard be duty bound to put themselves in harms way.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
They have to make a judgement call on what's safest
for them, and their own safety is a priority because
if they get injured, they're out of the picture effectively. Yes,
they can't be someone support, they can't be there trying
to protect other people. So that becomes a judgment called
based on how serious that situation is. If they are
comfortable that they've got the necessary skills to try and
(09:59):
escalate it be escalated or to take down their fender,
perhaps that's the right move in that situation, but there'll
be a lot of circumstances to consider.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Gary. Thank you very much for having a chat with us.
That is Gary Morrison, hit of the Security Associations.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
For more from News Talks, ed B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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