July 30, 2025 • 6 mins
Phones across the nation blared mobile emergency alerts at 6:30am this morning - following on from yesterday afternoon's warnings to stay away from the ocean following the Russia quake.
The alert system is designed to keep people safe, but it's raised concerns after people reported receiving repeated alerts through today and Civil Defence is looking into the glitch.
Former National MP Steven Joyce acknowledged there was always a risk of fatigue when it came to the system.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He is a former national MP and minister and he
was around the cabinet table when this emergency alert system
was established. His name is Stephen Joyce and joins us
on the line now, Steven, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Good guys, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Welcome to the show. So was the setup because the
technology became available to have everyone's phone with an emergency alert?
Is that that what motivated the setup?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
It became available, and of course at the moment became available,
the officials thought it was a good idea. And the
minister at the time was the late Nicki Kay and
she was a great Minister of Defense and she was
on everything and Nicky was very keen. But it is
fair to say there was a lot of discussion around
(01:00):
the cabinet table about the potential for Mission Creep. You know,
the whole idea was it was it at be a
for a life threatening situation. People needed to know to
do something to save their own lives. And I think
you know this is the amount of time it's getting
used is probably no surprise to those of us that
(01:21):
were a bit worried that it would it would get
mission creep over time and potentially therefore lose its effect.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, so what is the threshold to send it out
if it hasn't changed since your time? And who actually
makes that decision?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think it has been changing. It's sort of made
by civil defense. But as you can see that, there
have been other instances, and COVID was probably the first
one where it became more of a sort of public
notice public information system for a while there, which I
think I would require government sign off. And of course
at that time, you know, everybody was pretty naturally enough
(01:58):
obsessed about all that, so there were a lot of
things that were changed and used in different ways of
what they were attended during that time. But then you
go on to missing people, the lady in christ Church,
and it worked in that situation, but that really wasn't
what it was intended to do. And obviously that's a
decision for somebody other than civil defense, because I'm not
involved in things like that. And then you get sort
(02:20):
of localized rain for which we had here on the
North Shore just a couple of weeks back, where you
get a warning that it could be flooding, and it's like, well,
you know, and I think there is a real risk
of fatigue with itcoring it. And even yesterday actually I
(02:40):
was at a meeting when the first one came through
and everybody's phones went off at the same time, and
there was about eight people in the room and of
them probably two thirds like, oh god, what now?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, yeah, was the consideration at the time, Stephen fo
levels of alert. There's been a lot of discussion this
morning about having some sort of different tone if it
was something like we got yesterday in this morning, that
it's a warning rather than get out of the house
now or hunker down. Was there any of those discussions
that took place.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Well, I think there may have been, but not formally,
because where you end up with is if there's a
softer alert, let's say, whether then they just use it
more right, So then then it becomes a situation where
the government is effectively, you know, using using a sort
of national alert system, which, let's face it, is quite
(03:27):
an intrusion on people's lives. You can debate the noise
and all that sort of stuff, but at the end
of the day, it grabs their attention, and so one
level it's quite big brotherish, and the idea that you know,
you should be providing just sort of general useful, helpful
safety tips through these through these systems, I think has
(03:50):
gone a bit far, probably for most people. Even I
suppose the risk is that if you had a softer alert,
then it would just get used even more for those
for those situations. And I think probably the real question
for governments is under what circums dances should it be used,
and to understand there is a risk that if you
(04:12):
use it too often, you've got to keep people safe.
And I'm certain not arguing they shouldn't be using it
in yesterday's event. I think they should have by all
means put one out. I'm just saying that some of
some people's reactions to that will be in the fact
that they got one the rain for a week and
a half ago, and then there was a test a
couple of weeks before that, and then they get another
one at six city this morning, and I sort of think, yeah,
(04:33):
you've sort of you are at risk of overdoing it,
which was always the potential risk.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Do you think that we are it's symptomatic of a
society that's becoming too safe and cautious as this Texas says, Hi, guys,
this is the problem with health and safety in New
Zealand has reached the stage where most of it is
just butt covering just in case. He goes on to say,
but there is just this feeling that I get when
the thing beeps, as I keep saying this hour repeating myself,
(05:00):
where I just thought, I bet that's nothing. Do you
think we do have that culture?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
The boy who cried Wolfe scenario right to risk? But yeah,
I mean, well, people do expect to be warned about things.
I mean, imagine if imagine if if you didn't put
an alert out and then there was a big sun
army and people died, then it's understandable and in that
situation that the you know that the officials will want
(05:27):
to be on the side of caution.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But there has to be a line somewhere and someone
has to pick it, right.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Somebody has to pick the line, and I think probably
it's right to pick the line that you know, if
there is a risk of lots of life, But somebody
else needs to have the cool head and say, you know,
we've we've got to be careful that we're not going
to over use this thing to the point where it
stops being effective and just just upsets people.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Well, thank you so much for talking to us. I've
ever talked to you, Stephen Joyce. I was going to say,
I enjoyed your book on the record, but I think
that you need to write another book that's the all
of radio, because the chapters on radio were so interesting.
I've been in radio for years and I didn't know
that history. But an incredible time someone well less, you.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Know, I'm probably a little bit busy at the moment
that you're familiar with.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, yeah, very true.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Work out three hundred pages on radio in the.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, very good, Steven, great to catch up. Thank you
very much, and very good to get his perspective being
round that cabinet table, which is interesting because, as he said,
they were worried about Mission Creep and being overused, which
leads credence to your thoughts that it has been overused
and there may be a lot of people out there
that just aren't paying attention.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
For more from News Talk st B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He is a former national MP and minister and he
was around the cabinet table when this emergency alert system
was established. His name is Stephen Joyce and joins us
on the line now, Steven, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Good guys, how are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Welcome to the show. So was the setup because the
technology became available to have everyone's phone with an emergency alert?
Is that that what motivated the setup?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
It became available, and of course at the moment became available,
the officials thought it was a good idea. And the
minister at the time was the late Nicki Kay and
she was a great Minister of Defense and she was
on everything and Nicky was very keen. But it is
fair to say there was a lot of discussion around
(01:00):
the cabinet table about the potential for Mission Creep. You know,
the whole idea was it was it at be a
for a life threatening situation. People needed to know to
do something to save their own lives. And I think
you know this is the amount of time it's getting
used is probably no surprise to those of us that
(01:21):
were a bit worried that it would it would get
mission creep over time and potentially therefore lose its effect.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, so what is the threshold to send it out
if it hasn't changed since your time? And who actually
makes that decision?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I think it has been changing. It's sort of made
by civil defense. But as you can see that, there
have been other instances, and COVID was probably the first
one where it became more of a sort of public
notice public information system for a while there, which I
think I would require government sign off. And of course
at that time, you know, everybody was pretty naturally enough
(01:58):
obsessed about all that, so there were a lot of
things that were changed and used in different ways of
what they were attended during that time. But then you
go on to missing people, the lady in christ Church,
and it worked in that situation, but that really wasn't
what it was intended to do. And obviously that's a
decision for somebody other than civil defense, because I'm not
involved in things like that. And then you get sort
(02:20):
of localized rain for which we had here on the
North Shore just a couple of weeks back, where you
get a warning that it could be flooding, and it's like, well,
you know, and I think there is a real risk
of fatigue with itcoring it. And even yesterday actually I
(02:40):
was at a meeting when the first one came through
and everybody's phones went off at the same time, and
there was about eight people in the room and of
them probably two thirds like, oh god, what now?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, yeah, was the consideration at the time, Stephen fo
levels of alert. There's been a lot of discussion this
morning about having some sort of different tone if it
was something like we got yesterday in this morning, that
it's a warning rather than get out of the house
now or hunker down. Was there any of those discussions
that took place.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Well, I think there may have been, but not formally,
because where you end up with is if there's a
softer alert, let's say, whether then they just use it
more right, So then then it becomes a situation where
the government is effectively, you know, using using a sort
of national alert system, which, let's face it, is quite
(03:27):
an intrusion on people's lives. You can debate the noise
and all that sort of stuff, but at the end
of the day, it grabs their attention, and so one
level it's quite big brotherish, and the idea that you know,
you should be providing just sort of general useful, helpful
safety tips through these through these systems, I think has
(03:50):
gone a bit far, probably for most people. Even I
suppose the risk is that if you had a softer alert,
then it would just get used even more for those
for those situations. And I think probably the real question
for governments is under what circums dances should it be used,
and to understand there is a risk that if you
(04:12):
use it too often, you've got to keep people safe.
And I'm certain not arguing they shouldn't be using it
in yesterday's event. I think they should have by all
means put one out. I'm just saying that some of
some people's reactions to that will be in the fact
that they got one the rain for a week and
a half ago, and then there was a test a
couple of weeks before that, and then they get another
one at six city this morning, and I sort of think, yeah,
(04:33):
you've sort of you are at risk of overdoing it,
which was always the potential risk.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Do you think that we are it's symptomatic of a
society that's becoming too safe and cautious as this Texas says, Hi, guys,
this is the problem with health and safety in New
Zealand has reached the stage where most of it is
just butt covering just in case. He goes on to say,
but there is just this feeling that I get when
the thing beeps, as I keep saying this hour repeating myself,
(05:00):
where I just thought, I bet that's nothing. Do you
think we do have that culture?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
The boy who cried Wolfe scenario right to risk? But yeah,
I mean, well, people do expect to be warned about things.
I mean, imagine if imagine if if you didn't put
an alert out and then there was a big sun
army and people died, then it's understandable and in that
situation that the you know that the officials will want
(05:27):
to be on the side of caution.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But there has to be a line somewhere and someone
has to pick it, right.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Somebody has to pick the line, and I think probably
it's right to pick the line that you know, if
there is a risk of lots of life, But somebody
else needs to have the cool head and say, you know,
we've we've got to be careful that we're not going
to over use this thing to the point where it
stops being effective and just just upsets people.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Well, thank you so much for talking to us. I've
ever talked to you, Stephen Joyce. I was going to say,
I enjoyed your book on the record, but I think
that you need to write another book that's the all
of radio, because the chapters on radio were so interesting.
I've been in radio for years and I didn't know
that history. But an incredible time someone well less, you.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Know, I'm probably a little bit busy at the moment
that you're familiar with.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Well, yeah, very true.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Work out three hundred pages on radio in the.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, very good, Steven, great to catch up. Thank you
very much, and very good to get his perspective being
round that cabinet table, which is interesting because, as he said,
they were worried about Mission Creep and being overused, which
leads credence to your thoughts that it has been overused
and there may be a lot of people out there
that just aren't paying attention.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
For more from News Talk st B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,
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