November 9, 2025 • 12 mins
The Government's making moves to reduce the harm caused by New Zealand's methamphetamine problems - amid growing concerns about fentanyl's impact.
The Defence Force, Customs, police and intelligence agencies will work together to disrupt the trade before it reaches New Zealand.
Former Police Minister Stuart Nash has examined the fentanyl epidemic impacting the US - and he joined the Afternoons team to discuss further.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk ZEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We're talking about the increased investment from the government into
battling myth and petamine. But the secondary question we all
know myth and fittamine is an absolute scooge in New Zealand,
and I think it's fair to say we're a bit
slow off the mark and dealing with now internal Oh, now,
my finanyl is coming and hot. Are we prepared and
should we be looking seriously at trying to get a
(00:37):
head of fincinyl before it takes hold? Oh one hundred
and eight ten eighty is that number of cour.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
You just have to go on line. If you don't
know what we're talking about, just look up Finty Folding
and this the zombies that are covering the streets of
certain North American cities. Canada has been hit incredibly bad,
incredibly badly by fentanyl and it just seems to take
people's lives away from them and they're just quite happy
to stand on the streets swaying back and forward. It's
(01:01):
like some kind of dystopian future. It's horrifying.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, the walking Dead and it's coming to New Zealand. Yep,
it certainly is on the line. Is former Police Minister
Stuart nashtavi a chit about this? Could I Stewart?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, Stuart Nash, fentanyl? You've looked into this problem, haven't you.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yeah, So when I was Minister of Police very early on,
so this would have been twenty eighteen, you went across
the United States and had a look at this. And
this is when the fenttal epidemic was was in full force,
and you know, right across North America actually, and we've
never really had an oprahyoid problem in New Zeale. You know,
there's been small pockets of heroin in the past, but
never fential in the way that's that's hit North America
(01:43):
and not really Europe. But you know, memphetamine is an
absolute scourge. And what happened is when the five oh one,
you know, these were the gangs. This is what was
when Australia started seeing back all those really bad guys
and the guys at the Commaceiros and the banditos and
these Australian games got well established here. And what happened
(02:04):
is they bought with them their international networks and in
a much more mercenary way of doing business. And when
I say doing business and talking about the importation and
the distribution of metham fetamine, and that's when it really
took off in this country, and we weren't prepared for it.
I don't think we were prepared for the level of
sophistication that these Australian gangs brought in and couldn't speed.
(02:26):
We've paid the price for it. I think, please do
a much better job now in terms of things are
all coming in. Look, we've never The reason why I'm
slightly skeptical that's going to hit our shores in the
way that it has Canada, for example, is because traditionally
the New Zealand market, we've paid the second highest price
for medm feta mean for any country in the world
(02:47):
outside of Japan. And so the gangs, you know, even
when I was Minister of Police, so we're talking six
years ago now, they estimated the gangs were making five
hundred million dollars out of meth am feta mean. So
that's that's profit out of illegal drugs. And so there
was never really a business case to bring fentalel into
this country because so much money was being made out
(03:08):
of out of meth and theat I mean, the distribution
networks are well established here by the gangs the police.
At one point, the gangs were far more sophisticated than
the police in terms of distribution but also avoidance. The
police are. You know, they're investing heavily now in surveillance,
and I think that the new money put them by
(03:31):
the government is probably overdue but well needed. But the
level of sophistication that the law enforcement agencies need in
order to be ahead of these gangs is significant. So
the investment required is massive. But the thing is here,
there are two sides of this coin, right, So there's
a supply and there's a demand. So you go really
(03:51):
hard on the supply. You hit these guys with the
full force of the law. You know, you give the
police the powers that they need to go really hard
against these guys, and some of those powers are reason
for jaconian, but I back them one hundred percent. But
then there's a demand side. And I've always believed that
that drug addiction should be treated as a as a
health issue as opposed to a criminal issue, and the
(04:12):
problem as as if we start locking a whole lot
of people up with addiction problems, then you don't deal
with the issue. We really do need to invest in
addiction and mental health services if we're to get one
them get this under control, but also get the buy
in from the community. And there's been some fantastic programs
up north. There was one where the police worked very
(04:34):
closely with the DHB and it worked, had great success,
but it sort of didn't get rolled out across the
country unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So fentanyl is already in New Zealand and being fixed
in with you know, you hear about that people you know,
shoving it into too M D M A and such,
and obviously there's huge risks with that. Whereas do you
know how that's getting into the country, with what the
pathways to fentanyl being you know, arriving in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Well, I hear you saying that, but as far as
I'm aware includings, I'm wrong in this, it's not showing
up in the way. So what happens is police test
wastewater continuously, so we know from all the wastewater testing,
we're the methm fetamine. There's who's using it how much
that that's why we can say, you know, East Coast
and North Island Northland, for example, there's a lot of
(05:24):
methm fetamine in those communities. It's why we can say
down and crost Use there's a lot of ketamine because
we the police have and the scientists have a really
good facts around around what's coming. And every now and
again there was fental it did show up, and I
remember back in the day, we was always a bit
(05:44):
of a mystery to us, and in the end we
thought it was probably a medical clinic cleaning out its
supply or something along those lines. But I'm not aware.
But if I'm wrong on this of fentanyl showing up
in the wastewater, and all these illegal drugs show up
in the wastewater in a way which is which is
quite specific and very detailed. So if you know, if
you've heard that methm fetamine is coming in the only
(06:06):
way we would know that a level in the scale
of it is through this wastewater testing.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
So well, it's coming up, It's been coming. I haven't
seen wastewater fentanyl showing up, but it has been found
in drug testing at festivals and stuff. You know when
that when you know someone takes their their drugs up
you know, you know, drug people, the people that drug
dealers aren't the most what do you call it above
board oparatus, so they'll fix it with whatever whatever it
(06:33):
takes to sell the the product cheaply. But you know,
you don't know if that fentanyl that is being used
in that situation or if it's just one particular person
who has access to the fentanyl that is legally available
to New Zealand, you know, and is buying it off
of people people that are getting it legitimately, which is
a lot of the way that the whole heroine the
(06:53):
cooking up the heroin situation work back in the day.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
So we will we all know by the end of
summer a fenerol is a problem in this contribute, like
you say, because of the festivals and actually the drug
testing is something that I pushed hugely when it was
Minister of Police because I thought it was vice. You know,
if people are going to these festivals and taking pills,
they need to know what's in them. And you know,
there were some people who believe know what you do
as you're bury hid and sand because people shouldn't be
taking legal drugs. Well, of course they shouldn't, but that's
(07:19):
not dealing with the reality of the situation we find
themselves in. If we if fentanyl is being mixed in
with MDMA, and back in the day it wasn't vental,
it was almost everything else is being mixed in with
the DNA. So I think. I think at Rhythmond Vines,
I went up there one on the first of January,
and all the pills they tested, I think sixty percent
of them weren't what they said they were. But if
(07:40):
there is fentanyl being mixed in with MDMA, then I
have no doubt we will see deaths this summer at festivals.
And I hope like hell that we're that we're wrong
and we're not seeing fentanyl cousin with m dm A
in any in any sort of scale. If as mentioned,
the stuff that used to show up in the wastewater,
we it was so minimal we just thought it was
(08:00):
perhaps a clinic getting rid of old stuff, right, because
of course you can get ventanyl. And then my son
broke his leg seven weeks ago and he was given ventanyl.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I've had internal and I've had ventanyl. We're talking to
Stuart Naws, former Minister of Police. I've had ventanyl after
a procedure recently, and I can tell you it's it's
one of the most euro euphoric experiences of my life.
I was lying in the bed after the procedure on
fentanyl thinking where can I get more of this? Was
seriously I was seriously thinking where can I get more
(08:29):
of this? Once it wore off and I was sitting
on the couch at home, I had a big went
into a trough of some kind of deep you know,
the higher you go, the lower you get afterwards kind
of situation. But after that, I thought, I can see
why people give up their entire lives for the stroke.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah. But what you said, what happens in the States
and Kendrien, North America, is they regularly prescribe opra woids
for pain relief, and so people became numerous programs in
this and such and variantant documentaries, and what happens is
people do become adapted to it, and once the prescription
runs out or the medical professional says you now no
longer lead that in order to deal with the issue
(09:04):
that you came to us for that they're past the
point of addiction. But what happened in New Zealand is very,
very really people prescribed opioids over the counter for pain relief,
so you haven't got the opportunity to become addicted. It's
the reason why we haven't got a thingfully epidemic, because
it's just not that the opioid prescription is not part
(09:25):
of our sort of medical DNA. You do have it,
like you say, in the situation you're in, like my
son is, but it provides very quick pain relief and
it is very effective at that. But you know, no
doctor would have given you a one month prescription of
fentanyl in order to manage pain after an operation. So
we've really got to give the police the tools needed
(09:47):
to go hard on this, and a lot harder than
they are like asset confiscation, you know, don't have a
limit on this. I think matches of the same view
as i am, Mike Mitchell, the current Minister of Police
is you've got to give the police the tools to
go really hard against these gangs. They make a lot
of money out of this. They do quite a good
(10:07):
job of protecting your sets and hiding it. Police often
know who the people are, but often are constrained by
you know, by the law in terms of what they
could do my view, has just given them the powers
necessary to go really hard and learn from what happened
with regard to meth em better mein and the amount
of money the gangs made. As mentioned, if federal is
(10:30):
coming to the country, and I'm not convinced that it's
because of the amount of money the gangs are making
out of and better mean and the distribution networks and
the international supplies they've got all sorted out that if
it is, and we see it at festivals, then we
will see deaths of that. There is no doubt.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So, as a former Minister of Police who has been
across the criminal side of drug abuse, is the carnage
of uppers like meth and fhetamine something to be worried
about more than the carnage from downers like opioids like
heroin and fentanyl. I mean, obviously there's personal tragedies in both,
but I'm talking about the carnage for the wider community
that we see from methan fetamine abuse.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
That there are both bring their own level of carnage
and destroy lives, Detroit families, Detroit communities. And I was
in San Francisco recently, and you know, I used to
love going to that place I felt safe for in
New York and id in San Francisco. You know, the
opioid epidemic in the States is horrendous. And when I
see President Trump going after these drug runners, you know,
(11:31):
I actually back that stance. It is a real problem
in the States in a way that I don't think
we're aware. You know, all we see on the news
is is the US Coast Guard or the Navy going
after these boats that are running drugs from I think
predominantly Columbia. But it is a you know, if anyone
hasn't been to the United States or hasn't seen the
(11:52):
images of the carnage just as creating across North America,
then go online and you'll find it. Because there are
more people that die every year, I believe from fentanyl reddoses. Now,
these are the people who die let alone and we're
addicted to this thing and died in the Vietnam War.
I think I've got that stat right. If I haven't,
it's pretty stark anyway. So Americans are dying by the
thousands from the f from federal overdoses. But and methanphetamine
(12:16):
is you know, it's a problem in Middle America. That
there's no doubt. But like I said, I haven't heard
of fentinal coming into this country. When I got back
from the States, I bought about fifteen Time magazines. It
was the first time that Time magazine had ever devoted
a single issue to one issue, and it was the
fentanyl and the opioid issue. And I gave this to
(12:38):
the police and my colleagues and said, we've got to
have a strategy in place in case we see fenton
in this country, even if it's in the bottom jaw.
As soon as we see we've got to pull it
out and be ready for it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yep, Stuart, really good to get your thoughts on that.
That is Stuart Nash, former Minister of Police, who actually
drafted an action plan when it came to fentanyl.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from News Talks, that'd be listen live on
air or online and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on IRT Radio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk ZEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We're talking about the increased investment from the government into
battling myth and petamine. But the secondary question we all
know myth and fittamine is an absolute scooge in New Zealand,
and I think it's fair to say we're a bit
slow off the mark and dealing with now internal Oh, now,
my finanyl is coming and hot. Are we prepared and
should we be looking seriously at trying to get a
(00:37):
head of fincinyl before it takes hold? Oh one hundred
and eight ten eighty is that number of cour.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
You just have to go on line. If you don't
know what we're talking about, just look up Finty Folding
and this the zombies that are covering the streets of
certain North American cities. Canada has been hit incredibly bad,
incredibly badly by fentanyl and it just seems to take
people's lives away from them and they're just quite happy
to stand on the streets swaying back and forward. It's
(01:01):
like some kind of dystopian future. It's horrifying.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, the walking Dead and it's coming to New Zealand. Yep,
it certainly is on the line. Is former Police Minister
Stuart nashtavi a chit about this? Could I Stewart?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, Stuart Nash, fentanyl? You've looked into this problem, haven't you.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yeah, So when I was Minister of Police very early on,
so this would have been twenty eighteen, you went across
the United States and had a look at this. And
this is when the fenttal epidemic was was in full force,
and you know, right across North America actually, and we've
never really had an oprahyoid problem in New Zeale. You know,
there's been small pockets of heroin in the past, but
never fential in the way that's that's hit North America
(01:43):
and not really Europe. But you know, memphetamine is an
absolute scourge. And what happened is when the five oh one,
you know, these were the gangs. This is what was
when Australia started seeing back all those really bad guys
and the guys at the Commaceiros and the banditos and
these Australian games got well established here. And what happened
(02:04):
is they bought with them their international networks and in
a much more mercenary way of doing business. And when
I say doing business and talking about the importation and
the distribution of metham fetamine, and that's when it really
took off in this country, and we weren't prepared for it.
I don't think we were prepared for the level of
sophistication that these Australian gangs brought in and couldn't speed.
(02:26):
We've paid the price for it. I think, please do
a much better job now in terms of things are
all coming in. Look, we've never The reason why I'm
slightly skeptical that's going to hit our shores in the
way that it has Canada, for example, is because traditionally
the New Zealand market, we've paid the second highest price
for medm feta mean for any country in the world
(02:47):
outside of Japan. And so the gangs, you know, even
when I was Minister of Police, so we're talking six
years ago now, they estimated the gangs were making five
hundred million dollars out of meth am feta mean. So
that's that's profit out of illegal drugs. And so there
was never really a business case to bring fentalel into
this country because so much money was being made out
(03:08):
of out of meth and theat I mean, the distribution
networks are well established here by the gangs the police.
At one point, the gangs were far more sophisticated than
the police in terms of distribution but also avoidance. The
police are. You know, they're investing heavily now in surveillance,
and I think that the new money put them by
(03:31):
the government is probably overdue but well needed. But the
level of sophistication that the law enforcement agencies need in
order to be ahead of these gangs is significant. So
the investment required is massive. But the thing is here,
there are two sides of this coin, right, So there's
a supply and there's a demand. So you go really
(03:51):
hard on the supply. You hit these guys with the
full force of the law. You know, you give the
police the powers that they need to go really hard
against these guys, and some of those powers are reason
for jaconian, but I back them one hundred percent. But
then there's a demand side. And I've always believed that
that drug addiction should be treated as a as a
health issue as opposed to a criminal issue, and the
(04:12):
problem as as if we start locking a whole lot
of people up with addiction problems, then you don't deal
with the issue. We really do need to invest in
addiction and mental health services if we're to get one
them get this under control, but also get the buy
in from the community. And there's been some fantastic programs
up north. There was one where the police worked very
(04:34):
closely with the DHB and it worked, had great success,
but it sort of didn't get rolled out across the
country unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So fentanyl is already in New Zealand and being fixed
in with you know, you hear about that people you know,
shoving it into too M D M A and such,
and obviously there's huge risks with that. Whereas do you
know how that's getting into the country, with what the
pathways to fentanyl being you know, arriving in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Well, I hear you saying that, but as far as
I'm aware includings, I'm wrong in this, it's not showing
up in the way. So what happens is police test
wastewater continuously, so we know from all the wastewater testing,
we're the methm fetamine. There's who's using it how much
that that's why we can say, you know, East Coast
and North Island Northland, for example, there's a lot of
(05:24):
methm fetamine in those communities. It's why we can say
down and crost Use there's a lot of ketamine because
we the police have and the scientists have a really
good facts around around what's coming. And every now and
again there was fental it did show up, and I
remember back in the day, we was always a bit
(05:44):
of a mystery to us, and in the end we
thought it was probably a medical clinic cleaning out its
supply or something along those lines. But I'm not aware.
But if I'm wrong on this of fentanyl showing up
in the wastewater, and all these illegal drugs show up
in the wastewater in a way which is which is
quite specific and very detailed. So if you know, if
you've heard that methm fetamine is coming in the only
(06:06):
way we would know that a level in the scale
of it is through this wastewater testing.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
So well, it's coming up, It's been coming. I haven't
seen wastewater fentanyl showing up, but it has been found
in drug testing at festivals and stuff. You know when
that when you know someone takes their their drugs up
you know, you know, drug people, the people that drug
dealers aren't the most what do you call it above
board oparatus, so they'll fix it with whatever whatever it
(06:33):
takes to sell the the product cheaply. But you know,
you don't know if that fentanyl that is being used
in that situation or if it's just one particular person
who has access to the fentanyl that is legally available
to New Zealand, you know, and is buying it off
of people people that are getting it legitimately, which is
a lot of the way that the whole heroine the
(06:53):
cooking up the heroin situation work back in the day.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
So we will we all know by the end of
summer a fenerol is a problem in this contribute, like
you say, because of the festivals and actually the drug
testing is something that I pushed hugely when it was
Minister of Police because I thought it was vice. You know,
if people are going to these festivals and taking pills,
they need to know what's in them. And you know,
there were some people who believe know what you do
as you're bury hid and sand because people shouldn't be
taking legal drugs. Well, of course they shouldn't, but that's
(07:19):
not dealing with the reality of the situation we find
themselves in. If we if fentanyl is being mixed in
with MDMA, and back in the day it wasn't vental,
it was almost everything else is being mixed in with
the DNA. So I think. I think at Rhythmond Vines,
I went up there one on the first of January,
and all the pills they tested, I think sixty percent
of them weren't what they said they were. But if
(07:40):
there is fentanyl being mixed in with MDMA, then I
have no doubt we will see deaths this summer at festivals.
And I hope like hell that we're that we're wrong
and we're not seeing fentanyl cousin with m dm A
in any in any sort of scale. If as mentioned,
the stuff that used to show up in the wastewater,
we it was so minimal we just thought it was
(08:00):
perhaps a clinic getting rid of old stuff, right, because
of course you can get ventanyl. And then my son
broke his leg seven weeks ago and he was given ventanyl.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I've had internal and I've had ventanyl. We're talking to
Stuart Naws, former Minister of Police. I've had ventanyl after
a procedure recently, and I can tell you it's it's
one of the most euro euphoric experiences of my life.
I was lying in the bed after the procedure on
fentanyl thinking where can I get more of this? Was
seriously I was seriously thinking where can I get more
(08:29):
of this? Once it wore off and I was sitting
on the couch at home, I had a big went
into a trough of some kind of deep you know,
the higher you go, the lower you get afterwards kind
of situation. But after that, I thought, I can see
why people give up their entire lives for the stroke.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah. But what you said, what happens in the States
and Kendrien, North America, is they regularly prescribe opra woids
for pain relief, and so people became numerous programs in
this and such and variantant documentaries, and what happens is
people do become adapted to it, and once the prescription
runs out or the medical professional says you now no
longer lead that in order to deal with the issue
(09:04):
that you came to us for that they're past the
point of addiction. But what happened in New Zealand is very,
very really people prescribed opioids over the counter for pain relief,
so you haven't got the opportunity to become addicted. It's
the reason why we haven't got a thingfully epidemic, because
it's just not that the opioid prescription is not part
(09:25):
of our sort of medical DNA. You do have it,
like you say, in the situation you're in, like my
son is, but it provides very quick pain relief and
it is very effective at that. But you know, no
doctor would have given you a one month prescription of
fentanyl in order to manage pain after an operation. So
we've really got to give the police the tools needed
(09:47):
to go hard on this, and a lot harder than
they are like asset confiscation, you know, don't have a
limit on this. I think matches of the same view
as i am, Mike Mitchell, the current Minister of Police
is you've got to give the police the tools to
go really hard against these gangs. They make a lot
of money out of this. They do quite a good
(10:07):
job of protecting your sets and hiding it. Police often
know who the people are, but often are constrained by
you know, by the law in terms of what they
could do my view, has just given them the powers
necessary to go really hard and learn from what happened
with regard to meth em better mein and the amount
of money the gangs made. As mentioned, if federal is
(10:30):
coming to the country, and I'm not convinced that it's
because of the amount of money the gangs are making
out of and better mean and the distribution networks and
the international supplies they've got all sorted out that if
it is, and we see it at festivals, then we
will see deaths of that. There is no doubt.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So, as a former Minister of Police who has been
across the criminal side of drug abuse, is the carnage
of uppers like meth and fhetamine something to be worried
about more than the carnage from downers like opioids like
heroin and fentanyl. I mean, obviously there's personal tragedies in both,
but I'm talking about the carnage for the wider community
that we see from methan fetamine abuse.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
That there are both bring their own level of carnage
and destroy lives, Detroit families, Detroit communities. And I was
in San Francisco recently, and you know, I used to
love going to that place I felt safe for in
New York and id in San Francisco. You know, the
opioid epidemic in the States is horrendous. And when I
see President Trump going after these drug runners, you know,
(11:31):
I actually back that stance. It is a real problem
in the States in a way that I don't think
we're aware. You know, all we see on the news
is is the US Coast Guard or the Navy going
after these boats that are running drugs from I think
predominantly Columbia. But it is a you know, if anyone
hasn't been to the United States or hasn't seen the
(11:52):
images of the carnage just as creating across North America,
then go online and you'll find it. Because there are
more people that die every year, I believe from fentanyl reddoses. Now,
these are the people who die let alone and we're
addicted to this thing and died in the Vietnam War.
I think I've got that stat right. If I haven't,
it's pretty stark anyway. So Americans are dying by the
thousands from the f from federal overdoses. But and methanphetamine
(12:16):
is you know, it's a problem in Middle America. That
there's no doubt. But like I said, I haven't heard
of fentinal coming into this country. When I got back
from the States, I bought about fifteen Time magazines. It
was the first time that Time magazine had ever devoted
a single issue to one issue, and it was the
fentanyl and the opioid issue. And I gave this to
(12:38):
the police and my colleagues and said, we've got to
have a strategy in place in case we see fenton
in this country, even if it's in the bottom jaw.
As soon as we see we've got to pull it
out and be ready for it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yep, Stuart, really good to get your thoughts on that.
That is Stuart Nash, former Minister of Police, who actually
drafted an action plan when it came to fentanyl.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from News Talks, that'd be listen live on
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