August 5, 2025 • 10 mins
The Government hopes abolishing the petrol tax levels the playing field for motorists.
Transport and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop's announced the Government plans to implement universal road user charges, to be paid like a bill.
AA Principal Policy Advisor Terry Collins joined the Afternoons team to explain further.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from NEWSTALKSB Follow this and
our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
The government is preparing to move all vehicles over to
a ruck system by twenty twenty seven. Terry Collins is
Principal Policy Advisor for the AA on Transport Policy and advocacy.
He's been across this since the idea was first floated
by National and joins us on the phones now, Terry,
very good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Yeah, good afternoon Mett and Dollald.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So, Terry, is petrol tax or fuel excise tax no
longer sustainable as a road funding model in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Well, we've been striving to get more efficient cars. So
obviously if you're traveling the same distance and using less fuel,
will pay less tube exoust duty and that's been the
driver behind it. Also the move towards more hybrid and
evs means obviously evs don't use petrol. Hybrid's news even lease.
So looking at the future the way the fleet was
(01:03):
going to change, that made this decision to move to
universal ruck for all the vehicles.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
What as an EERUK system and how do you see
it working? Is will there be new technology installed in cars.
Will we have a device in every single car? How
do you see it? Say it working?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well? Yes, It's really interesting because I see in the
minister's comments he talks about it unlocking congestion, charging and tolls.
So that means it's got to know where you are
when you were there. Okay, So that lends itself to ERUCH.
What happens in the heavy truck industry is they've got
something called UK. The advantages of that is that if
you go into a forest on the port, it turns
(01:41):
the ERUK off because they're not roads and you don't
pay for those off road journeys. Also, many of them
have a driver telemetrics which when the brakes applied, the
accelerator was used a number of other things that they
can use for driver training. The key issue around the
heavy industry is every one of those people who uses
it voluntary and you're going to put it into the
(02:02):
light fleet. I don't think everybody will want to have
it in because what our members tell us us that
they're consumed about some of the privacy issues having people
know where we are when we are, even though we
use our cell phones and off. In that case around
having your vehicles parked up and other things. That is
one of the issues that are really going to have
to be well considered by the government.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, can you see a situation where I can imagine
the government won't do this at launch, but you can
see a situation where a government comes in and says, well,
we're going to fire out speeding fines for anyone that
we detect on this device we're put into these cars instantly.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Well, look, there's a couple of things that have happened.
A lot of people don't realize that you've already got
devices in your car, particularly modern cars, that record all
this information. We've had insurance claims that I know have
declined because the person's told one story. We're written off
a vehicle. I mean, they download all the information off
the computer. They find a completely excessive speed on a
gravel road at secret, so they decline it. So already
(03:00):
all this information going. What it's going to be is
and what really needs to be managed is if you
look at the minister's press release, he's talking about private
companies running the system. That means you've got private companies
who've got your data and always that data is very
valuable and so how we manage that is going to
be one of the big challenges.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah, I mean if it slips over into even just
mentioning congestion charges as adding another sort of social engineering
aspect to it. Are there any EERUT systems working like
this overseas?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Look a little while ago I had a Japanese import
and I flipped down the sun visor and underneath it
was a little pod where they just plugged in the transponder.
And so when they drove around Tokyo where the car
came from, every time that we passed a toll we
passed onto a certain road, they had automatically accumulated the
charges and then they would get a bill at the
end of the month. So there are devices like that,
(03:54):
and Singapore uses it, in a couple of other countries,
a number of other countries just use it as well.
London around entry points into the city had those kinds
of devices as well. There are some positive surrenders though,
because if the build the system, they nearly they need
a future proofit because once you go to distance space,
it unlocks a lot of other things, like the way
(04:16):
we pay our acc Currently, this comes in at twenty
twenty seven. If you've got a motorcycle over seven hundred
and fifty c c's, you will be paying twelve dollars
shy of one thousand dollars a year to registered or
because of the AA ACC charges right now. I know
lots of guys have got two or three bikes, but
they only ride one and so you've got a big contribution.
(04:38):
So moving to a distance space for those motorcycles would
overcome that problem of them double dipping around it, and
so for multiple vehicle owners distance space will be a
really good thing.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But it's a good point, you know. I mean similar
with the WAFT system as well, Terry that if you're
going to have distance based charging for you know, distance
and then ACC surely the WAFT would come into that
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Well. They had a doubt and the government just changed
the requirements for vintage cars, those cars over forty years
to go from six monthly to twelve monthly because not
a pride and enjoy that most of the owners have
got them. They're well maintained, they don't do the distances
that other cars do and have a lower wall on
a fitness failure rate. The AA thinks that distance traveled
(05:24):
is a better indicator of where and tear on a vehicle,
not age regardless. You can have a brand new car
and have a three year want and it could be
doing thirty thousand kilometers a year because it's an a
fleet or whatever, and it's noble atomic, it's inspected, it's
done ninety thousand, versus something that could be the forty
years old gets done once a year. It's only done
(05:45):
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we are talking
with Terry Collins. He's the principal advisor at the AA
and I'm Terry.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Look not for the first time in my life, I'm
a little bit confused. I'm just going to ask you
a question that you've kind of seemi asked. But it's
not a pay in advance and display system like Diesel
Myles system. Now, So just to clarify, do you think
the government is talking about a physical device in every
car or is it cameras on the road or is
it just something that's marked off at warrant a fitness
(06:14):
or rigio against your adometer.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Well, look, the details aren't there yet, but let's kind
of explore some of those options. If it's around checking itself,
declaring it well, that's not going to unlock the congestion
and the tolling. So that announcement makes me believe that
they are thinking of some kind of physical device in
your vehicle that plots of distances that you're going thereon
(06:38):
loves the rub because we've got modern cars that have
got a lot of that data already, but everage age
of their fleets about forty years before it leaves it.
So we've got our whole cars in there. And if
you think even if there's a million or two million,
and you've got to spend at least a couple of
hundred bucks to get the thing put in, and then
for the whole fleet, what's going to be the monitoring costs?
(06:59):
How are they going to monitor it? Is it going
to be real time? And I suspect that would be
difficult expensive. Imagine four million vehicles trailing around getting tracked
every month. We know what our phone deals are like,
so look, we're waiting more detail, but you've really hit
the right kind of question around this, given that they
if they do put these transponded devices in it, you've
(07:20):
got both the initial and installation cost, but then you've
got your ongoing monthly or whatever the time period is
monitoring costs that go with it.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, And do we really want the government to know
exactly where we are in our car in real time
and what speed we're traveling at and exactly where we are.
Is that the kind of information we want the government?
And as you said before, also a private firm because
they're they want to take it out to private companies
for the the tech. So is that something that we
(07:54):
want You think.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, too late, it's already here because either time you
your car with your cell.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Phone, we've voluntarily done it, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, Yeah, we've voluntarily done it. So here's yeah. Look,
I mean these are the challenges that are facing us
around it. Obviously, if you want to automate the system,
and that's what the indication for the government is, they
want to automate it, make it really used. Okay, this
is what you've done, here's your bill. But then you
start thinking about these kind of vehicles like a nineteen
ten seeds no veteran card. Do you want to transport
(08:25):
us sitting in it for the add distance it's going.
So there's going to have to be some practical exemptions
in some ways around it. Now, the data. I think
is we all the privacy and those issues arrive and
you get a bill for x amount of kilometers an hour.
In some ways for the private could unlock like the
fringe benefits when you use the car privately when you
don't when you're off road for farmers, no driving around
(08:48):
the farm. I'm not paying any money back on the road.
I'm paying some money because I'm contributing. There's a whole
bunch of subtleties and nuances that have to be explored further,
given the issues around privacy, the cost of installing, the
cost of monitoring, and then the benefits from it.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
With all that we've chatted about here, is it fear
to say this is almost a bit like a trojan
horse that you bring in the system like this that
monitors everybody, and we all think it's for road infrastructure,
But as the Minister said, there's other things that they
can utilize the system for. And to me that's a
bit too far that if we can all agree on
a ruck system to pay for road infrastructure, but then
(09:26):
to utilize that for something like congestion charges. No, no,
you can't. You can't play that game.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, you're thinking about GC that they brought it in,
it's only going to be ten percent, exactly twelve and
a half percent. It was fifteen percent. So you kind
of hear these people. One government makes it can't make
a commitment for future governments. We will never use this
for compliance or enforcement issues. That's a point in time
in the future there might be a different view where
they decide, hey, we've got all the data and it's
(09:53):
do it. I will tell you the story I mentioned earlier.
People don't realize a guy and a trade in a
fifty two thousand dollars vehicle made an insurance claim because
he wrote it off, said he was on a road.
When they got the computer information out, it was founding
one hundred and forty killing me on the gravel road
and rolled it. Because you had not told the truth
to the insurance company, they declined it. So there's there's
(10:15):
a whole bunch of potential things like when people look
at the bill and go, how come you done all
that distance? Or how come you didn't do all that distance?
It is getting arrayed in where you're going to have a
bit more monitoring on it, and how that is managed
is one of the key issues.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yes, thank you so much Terry Collins.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
For more from US Talks ed B Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from NEWSTALKSB Follow this and
our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
The government is preparing to move all vehicles over to
a ruck system by twenty twenty seven. Terry Collins is
Principal Policy Advisor for the AA on Transport Policy and advocacy.
He's been across this since the idea was first floated
by National and joins us on the phones now, Terry,
very good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Yeah, good afternoon Mett and Dollald.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So, Terry, is petrol tax or fuel excise tax no
longer sustainable as a road funding model in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Well, we've been striving to get more efficient cars. So
obviously if you're traveling the same distance and using less fuel,
will pay less tube exoust duty and that's been the
driver behind it. Also the move towards more hybrid and
evs means obviously evs don't use petrol. Hybrid's news even lease.
So looking at the future the way the fleet was
(01:03):
going to change, that made this decision to move to
universal ruck for all the vehicles.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
What as an EERUK system and how do you see
it working? Is will there be new technology installed in cars.
Will we have a device in every single car? How
do you see it? Say it working?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well? Yes, It's really interesting because I see in the
minister's comments he talks about it unlocking congestion, charging and tolls.
So that means it's got to know where you are
when you were there. Okay, So that lends itself to ERUCH.
What happens in the heavy truck industry is they've got
something called UK. The advantages of that is that if
you go into a forest on the port, it turns
(01:41):
the ERUK off because they're not roads and you don't
pay for those off road journeys. Also, many of them
have a driver telemetrics which when the brakes applied, the
accelerator was used a number of other things that they
can use for driver training. The key issue around the
heavy industry is every one of those people who uses
it voluntary and you're going to put it into the
(02:02):
light fleet. I don't think everybody will want to have
it in because what our members tell us us that
they're consumed about some of the privacy issues having people
know where we are when we are, even though we
use our cell phones and off. In that case around
having your vehicles parked up and other things. That is
one of the issues that are really going to have
to be well considered by the government.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, can you see a situation where I can imagine
the government won't do this at launch, but you can
see a situation where a government comes in and says, well,
we're going to fire out speeding fines for anyone that
we detect on this device we're put into these cars instantly.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Well, look, there's a couple of things that have happened.
A lot of people don't realize that you've already got
devices in your car, particularly modern cars, that record all
this information. We've had insurance claims that I know have
declined because the person's told one story. We're written off
a vehicle. I mean, they download all the information off
the computer. They find a completely excessive speed on a
gravel road at secret, so they decline it. So already
(03:00):
all this information going. What it's going to be is
and what really needs to be managed is if you
look at the minister's press release, he's talking about private
companies running the system. That means you've got private companies
who've got your data and always that data is very
valuable and so how we manage that is going to
be one of the big challenges.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah, I mean if it slips over into even just
mentioning congestion charges as adding another sort of social engineering
aspect to it. Are there any EERUT systems working like
this overseas?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Look a little while ago I had a Japanese import
and I flipped down the sun visor and underneath it
was a little pod where they just plugged in the transponder.
And so when they drove around Tokyo where the car
came from, every time that we passed a toll we
passed onto a certain road, they had automatically accumulated the
charges and then they would get a bill at the
end of the month. So there are devices like that,
(03:54):
and Singapore uses it, in a couple of other countries,
a number of other countries just use it as well.
London around entry points into the city had those kinds
of devices as well. There are some positive surrenders though,
because if the build the system, they nearly they need
a future proofit because once you go to distance space,
it unlocks a lot of other things, like the way
(04:16):
we pay our acc Currently, this comes in at twenty
twenty seven. If you've got a motorcycle over seven hundred
and fifty c c's, you will be paying twelve dollars
shy of one thousand dollars a year to registered or
because of the AA ACC charges right now. I know
lots of guys have got two or three bikes, but
they only ride one and so you've got a big contribution.
(04:38):
So moving to a distance space for those motorcycles would
overcome that problem of them double dipping around it, and
so for multiple vehicle owners distance space will be a
really good thing.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But it's a good point, you know. I mean similar
with the WAFT system as well, Terry that if you're
going to have distance based charging for you know, distance
and then ACC surely the WAFT would come into that
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Well. They had a doubt and the government just changed
the requirements for vintage cars, those cars over forty years
to go from six monthly to twelve monthly because not
a pride and enjoy that most of the owners have
got them. They're well maintained, they don't do the distances
that other cars do and have a lower wall on
a fitness failure rate. The AA thinks that distance traveled
(05:24):
is a better indicator of where and tear on a vehicle,
not age regardless. You can have a brand new car
and have a three year want and it could be
doing thirty thousand kilometers a year because it's an a
fleet or whatever, and it's noble atomic, it's inspected, it's
done ninety thousand, versus something that could be the forty
years old gets done once a year. It's only done
(05:45):
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we are talking
with Terry Collins. He's the principal advisor at the AA
and I'm Terry.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Look not for the first time in my life, I'm
a little bit confused. I'm just going to ask you
a question that you've kind of seemi asked. But it's
not a pay in advance and display system like Diesel
Myles system. Now, So just to clarify, do you think
the government is talking about a physical device in every
car or is it cameras on the road or is
it just something that's marked off at warrant a fitness
(06:14):
or rigio against your adometer.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Well, look, the details aren't there yet, but let's kind
of explore some of those options. If it's around checking itself,
declaring it well, that's not going to unlock the congestion
and the tolling. So that announcement makes me believe that
they are thinking of some kind of physical device in
your vehicle that plots of distances that you're going thereon
(06:38):
loves the rub because we've got modern cars that have
got a lot of that data already, but everage age
of their fleets about forty years before it leaves it.
So we've got our whole cars in there. And if
you think even if there's a million or two million,
and you've got to spend at least a couple of
hundred bucks to get the thing put in, and then
for the whole fleet, what's going to be the monitoring costs?
(06:59):
How are they going to monitor it? Is it going
to be real time? And I suspect that would be
difficult expensive. Imagine four million vehicles trailing around getting tracked
every month. We know what our phone deals are like,
so look, we're waiting more detail, but you've really hit
the right kind of question around this, given that they
if they do put these transponded devices in it, you've
(07:20):
got both the initial and installation cost, but then you've
got your ongoing monthly or whatever the time period is
monitoring costs that go with it.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, And do we really want the government to know
exactly where we are in our car in real time
and what speed we're traveling at and exactly where we are.
Is that the kind of information we want the government?
And as you said before, also a private firm because
they're they want to take it out to private companies
for the the tech. So is that something that we
(07:54):
want You think.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, too late, it's already here because either time you
your car with your cell.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Phone, we've voluntarily done it, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, Yeah, we've voluntarily done it. So here's yeah. Look,
I mean these are the challenges that are facing us
around it. Obviously, if you want to automate the system,
and that's what the indication for the government is, they
want to automate it, make it really used. Okay, this
is what you've done, here's your bill. But then you
start thinking about these kind of vehicles like a nineteen
ten seeds no veteran card. Do you want to transport
(08:25):
us sitting in it for the add distance it's going.
So there's going to have to be some practical exemptions
in some ways around it. Now, the data. I think
is we all the privacy and those issues arrive and
you get a bill for x amount of kilometers an hour.
In some ways for the private could unlock like the
fringe benefits when you use the car privately when you
don't when you're off road for farmers, no driving around
(08:48):
the farm. I'm not paying any money back on the road.
I'm paying some money because I'm contributing. There's a whole
bunch of subtleties and nuances that have to be explored further,
given the issues around privacy, the cost of installing, the
cost of monitoring, and then the benefits from it.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
With all that we've chatted about here, is it fear
to say this is almost a bit like a trojan
horse that you bring in the system like this that
monitors everybody, and we all think it's for road infrastructure,
But as the Minister said, there's other things that they
can utilize the system for. And to me that's a
bit too far that if we can all agree on
a ruck system to pay for road infrastructure, but then
(09:26):
to utilize that for something like congestion charges. No, no,
you can't. You can't play that game.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, you're thinking about GC that they brought it in,
it's only going to be ten percent, exactly twelve and
a half percent. It was fifteen percent. So you kind
of hear these people. One government makes it can't make
a commitment for future governments. We will never use this
for compliance or enforcement issues. That's a point in time
in the future there might be a different view where
they decide, hey, we've got all the data and it's
(09:53):
do it. I will tell you the story I mentioned earlier.
People don't realize a guy and a trade in a
fifty two thousand dollars vehicle made an insurance claim because
he wrote it off, said he was on a road.
When they got the computer information out, it was founding
one hundred and forty killing me on the gravel road
and rolled it. Because you had not told the truth
to the insurance company, they declined it. So there's there's
(10:15):
a whole bunch of potential things like when people look
at the bill and go, how come you done all
that distance? Or how come you didn't do all that distance?
It is getting arrayed in where you're going to have a
bit more monitoring on it, and how that is managed
is one of the key issues.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yes, thank you so much Terry Collins.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
For more from US Talks ed B Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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