August 28, 2024 • 37 mins
Darren Shand, who spent 20 years as manager of the All Blacks before launching his own company, Winning Teams, shares his and best money stories with Liam Dann.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at Large,
and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is
a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell
you how to get rich, and we're not going to
try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series,
I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money
has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years.
(00:28):
For today's podcast, I'm joined by the former manager of
the All Blacks and now founder of Winning Teams, Darren Shanned. Hi, Darren, Look,
thanks for being here. Very high profile role with the
All Blacks obviously, and that's how people know you. So
I'm interested. It's been how long since you stepped away?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I finished after the World Cup last year. Yeah, so
I've had a bit of time with the new group,
just to pass on as much as I could. Yeah. Yeah, So,
you know, I guess I believe Black so I really
wanted them to do well too. You know, I think
it's a you always. I think you talk a lot
in the All Blacks about leaving the place and in
good shape and leaving the Jersey in a good place.
So a nice transition, a nice transition and actually just
(01:11):
loving being a fan white thing to them do their
out their work.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Now it's in a good season so far, and so
you've you're effectively transitioning some of the skills that you
brought to managing the All Blacks into sort of a
business world. Is that is that how you look at
what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, Like I think when I sat down at the
end of last year and just reflected on who I
am now, there was a whole I guess, a whole
lot of principles and philosophies I've learned through that time there,
And so how can I turn that into something else?
And we're pretty quickly settled on the fact that I
just love being like a team player, that there was
real strength and team and when you could bring a
(01:49):
lot of good people together, combine them build a great environment,
you could achieve great things, you know, and even an
ordinary person can do quite extraordinary things, you know, when
you've got a teams. So, yeah, with the help of
a few people, and I've always liked to put my
hand up for help, and yeah, so I found some
really good people who had worked in that space, and
we sort of just build an idea really around how
(02:13):
how can we help both sports and business build winning teams,
you know, and build teams that support teams. Often with
the or Blacks, you see the team on the field,
but you don't see the team behind the team and
what role they play. So that was kind of the
general principle. And I look at businesses, most of them
the teams, a board as a team, an executive team
as a team, and so how do they are they
really performing at a high level? And what makes a
(02:35):
great team?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So yeah, I mean, is it a straight does it
translate quite cleanly? I guess I'm trying to find the
right word. But you know that getting in that high
performance zone for sports and you know you've got to
switch on at the right moment and you've got to
relax at the right moment, all that sort of stuff.
Do you find that that translates quite well into the
world of business.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I think it does, and that I think in business
there's probably a way. It's been a way of doing things,
and so now that sport has become a business, we've
learned it to do it a different way. And so again,
if you come with a growth mindset versus a fixed
mindset and think well, how can we how can we
just look at this through a different lens, which is
what we had to do. Where were high performance as
(03:17):
such small margins and that you've got to adapt and
earn really fast. You have a bit more time in business,
so actually you've got space, And I guess the big
thing I've learned was actually to get missuses to actually
they don't actually look at performance in that sense what
is actually high performance? They tend to be more metric based.
And often I tell the story quite often people would say,
(03:39):
you guys are judged by win. Last I said, well,
that's what the outside will see, but that's not what
we're driven by. And so we're not an outcome yes,
to the public, we're an outcome based to organization. That's
what high performance sport is often measured by. But internally
we were driven by a whole lot of other things
that actually allowed us to achieve those outcomes. You know,
and often I think, you know, if a business is
driven by a profit, well but what does that all mean?
(04:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, so it was looking at at an individual level
kind of like as you said, like businesses will often
have a metric which they're sharing with the team or
an algorithm. They're trying to beat certain targets. But are
you sort of suggesting that we probably should do a
little bit more work inside our heads.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah. I think.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What I learned the most was that first you got
to have yourself sorted. And what I see a lot
in business is this what i'd call sort of very
vertically oriented organizations where position and power mean everything. And
what I've found in sport is it we probably tended
to operate more at a horizontal level, where we collaborated
(04:43):
a lot more to order to move up the vertical
access and in the end, like position became irrelevant because
it was actually more about role and each person. If
you take the sport analogy, when you go into a
field in a rugby game, everyone gets a jersey has
a number on it that just defines a role. And
so often I feel people are so in a hurry
(05:04):
to get further up the ladder, Yeah, they actually forget
about improving themselves. And I think that's what we did
in sport, was if we can get you the best
we can be, the team will win and you will win,
like it'll be a duel due outcome. So those are
some of the ideas I've been sharing and trying to
There's certainly questions that come hard at you from businesses around,
But that's easy in sport. You know, we couldn't do
(05:24):
that in business. But I've found lots of ways to
sort of talk around those stories and find different different options,
different loads of thinking.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
All right, that's great. I'd like to come back to
some of those things as we chat. But you know,
with money talks, we always like to go back and
get a bit of your backstory and how you ended
up on this all Blacks journey and frame it with
you know, some memories of money. So I guess first
thing I would ask is, you know, do you have
an earlier, earliest memory of money, the first time you
(05:55):
might have held money in your hand.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Probably Monopoly, Yeah, with the family family holidays and that
was always a big big piece of the beach holiday
in the caravan and monopoly and competer to the games.
Oh yeah, super competitive, yeah, very very much so. And
probably we lived. I grew up in Hawk's Bay and
we lived just on the outskirts of Hastings and makes
(06:19):
all the orchards, and so pretty early on I was
next door in the orchard getting paid ten cents for
every used to make wooden boxes to put the fruit
and and so that was my first job putting those boxes.
Given thinking off, I get one hundred done today, you
know ten bucks?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, hard work.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Hard work, but yeah, that was good.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It was that sort of after school or just the
season right and.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
School holidays and things like that, could just jump over
the fence and going able to work there.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And with the things that things that you were saving for,
or were you spending the money down the dairy.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Or I was really like I was a sports jock,
you know, so it was always about having the best
sports here, and I was probably I always had this
aspiration to be the best I could. So I always
wanted the best stuff because I felt if I if
I looked good, I felt good that I'd play good. Yeah,
and so you know, it was always like I need
the latest cricket pads or you know, I need these
boots for rugby or for hospital.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
With the sports, because it wasn't always just you know
that rugby wasn't necessarily play rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Long stopped when I was about thirteen, and I was
doing pretty well at hockey as well, so I kind
of that became the winter thing, and cricket was a
big it was a big summer thing. So yeah, it
did well at school and reached some good levels that
I was pretty happy with, but as soon as got
to university I just pretty much dropped them. You know.
I just had a bad experience at Uni with my hockey.
(07:42):
I had some really high aspirations with hockey to go
sort of all the way, and.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Had a bad coaching experience.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Really, yeah, I just lost the love of it, you know.
Yeah's quickly discovered skiing when I was in Queenswn. Well
that looks a little bit better for the winter, so
kind of quickly sort of pivoted into really found a
love for the outdoors. And then then I moved to
Queenstown as soon as I finished my degree, really because
I just wanted to be just had that passion for
(08:10):
doing outdoor adventures.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
But right through school it was you actually did our
outdoor education or physical education as a as a as
a degree, is that right?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, So through school were those that sort of it
was a bit of science and that and.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Real mixture teaching. I think was probably the both parents
were teachers, So I remember when I was an intermediate.
A guy came into our school. He was the brother
of one of my teachers, and he was a phyzed teacher.
And this guy had like every pair of shoes for
a resport. And I was like wow, you know and
and I yeah, pretty much from that day and I
(08:45):
said to him that I'm going to Dunedin and I'm
going to study sports and physical education and never considered
anything else. Really, Yeah, I got down there. In my
first semester, we had to do some teaching like a
teaching paper, and I got sent to a I go
girls high school and I got this had my lesson plan.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Or sort of.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I could not get the girls out of the class. Yeah,
I couldn't get to be able to changing room. So I
was like, no, I'm not for teaching. So that's kind
of when the outdoor, the recreation side, a bit of
the sports science. I quite enjoyed the whole you know,
how the athletes get better and so that's the thing
with Vizita. It was quite a diverse range of topic
areas in.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A lot of different directions, but you ended up, if
I read it right, I ended up with aj Hackett
and the bungee jumping operation is that right.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, Yeah, I met aj early on when he first
came to Queenslander set the bungee up.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So how nearly is this just just like right?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Literally I don't remember. I think around nineteen eighty seventy
jumped from the Eiffel Tower and that kind of launched
the business.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And then he was in the birth of bungee jumping.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, and he sort of started at the Carlile Bridge
and that stage I was a rafting guy, so we
were going under it every day and I actually took
him rafting one day and that's how I got to
meet him, and he just said to me, if you
want to come work for me, letting me know. So
two or three years later, as I just rang him
and started off just driving the bus out to the bridge.
Who worked on the bridge, and he probably gave me.
(10:08):
He was the first person I think that really believed
that I could do more than just be a you know,
that I could lead and manage people and stuff, and
so he sort of gave me the chance. The other
thing I really learned from him was the notion of
risk and business, and he was an entrepreneur, really entrepreneurial,
took a massive risk, big vision, really big vision. Yeah.
And you know, the funny thing was that bungee was
(10:30):
a personal challenge for people, and you'd stand there in
that moment and think life's over. That was incredibly safe
and so while people saw it as a risk, the
actual risk of the process was super low, you know,
far less risky than going rafting, for example. And the
other thing I learned was when he allowed me to
lead and manage, you develop a different mindset around the
(10:52):
risk that he's carrying as a business owner versus being
a work and go, come on, mate, you've got to
pay me more. You know, I'm doing a great job here,
and you don't understand all those macare and know he
was trying to go global and go quickly, and so
it was. It was very very interesting. And the final
lesson I got from him, which I love, was whenever
he came back, because the company went international very fast,
(11:13):
he spent a lot of time if sure, and when
he came back, he had always the first thing you'd
do was organize a party, because he just wanted people
to loosen up and tell him everything that was happening.
Then the next day we would have a debrisch and
get it down to business where their other boss was like,
he would have a meeting first, anybody have a party after.
So it was it was very interesting, but an awesome
human being.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, man, I mean that that that risk thing is
interesting because that is a big part of you know,
when I talk to successful people often it's it's that
ability to assess risk well. I mean people you know,
as you say, there's different different kinds of risk and
different levels of risk, and you know often we're kind of,
(11:51):
you know, a motive about you know, how risky something is.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think he was.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was almost like they were on a wave and
they just kept surfing it for a while. And the
good thing was the process and this and the structures
around the actual operation were so sound, you know, and
that he had done all that work well before he
launched it. So but it never removed the challenge that
everyone faced when they took the step out to the edge,
(12:17):
which was the really nice thing about it.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
So how long we were I had about.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Five years with them, and I kind of got to
the point of my crew just about ten thirty and
I was like, what next, you know, I thought about
doing an NBA. Actually went through the process of you
have to sit an entrance thingsam So.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I inspired by doing more of business stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, I just felt I had more and I sort
of felt there was a ceiling in Queenstown at that stage.
Tourism was the late eadies, early noise was probably the
first sort of big food to change.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah. Yeah, and I just felt.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I could do more, and I sort of felt sport
really the calling of sports somehow, and so an opportunity
just popped up in the role with aj Hackett was
sales and marketing role, and so a rugby role popped
up in sort of sponsorship in the commercial side with
the Canterbury Rugby. So you just went up and had
an interview and I was pretty fortunate that that must
(13:12):
have been. Was that pretty super rugby? No, it was
just just as it was ninety eight, Yeah, just early
days of professionals, so you still had a lot of something.
Was the ninety six was year one, Yeah, so you
had that whole transition where guys had sort of started
the amateur and now they were being paid. Yeah, so
it went from being the fun to their job. So
it was a fascinating time.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
A sort of step back. Basic question here is just
can you take us through what a team manager does
for rugby team, you know, because in football in the
in the UK and things, the manager often sort of
means the coach, but it's different in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right, Yeah, well there's I guess the role that I
first had was when I started with Sta Graham here,
it was actually the general manager and so technically Graham
reported to me, and so when we sat down to
discuss how it was going to work, he said, Darren,
I just want to coach and I just want you
to sort out everything else, and so I said fine.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So that's what we did.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Where it probably finished was there's probably two big buckets
to the role, So it was it was set up
as a leadership role. So one was to provide a
bridge between the organization and the team, so I said,
on the executive of the organization because a lot of
decisions that were made commercially, financially, legally impacted the team
and performance. So I needed to be part of that
(14:34):
conversation and provide an all back perspective to everything within
New Zealand Rugby. So that was one part. So that
whole business side, all the commercial stuff, the communications, all
of that, and then on the team side was really
just the operation, which is, you know, seventy people traveling
around the world. We don't have a base, a little logistics,
(14:54):
a lot of logistics, a lot of operational requirements. Basically
allowing the coach to turn up to any training field
in here in the world and knowing that it's pristine,
every piece of equipment and needs secure et cetera. So, yeah,
that was a big and there was a big team
of people contributing to that, and that sort of grew
and grew the more you imagine probably the last team,
(15:17):
you suddenly security became a real big issue for us.
Not protecting ourselves from spies or anything, but just the
world we're now playing in Paris, there's a level one
security of it. How we're going to manage ourselves, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So there's a lot of sol I mean, you're solving
a lot of problems so that the team and the
coach don't have to deal with them.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I guess you're sort of enabling the team to be
able to get on and do their thing and with
limited distractions and constantly thinking about the performance equation and that,
so how can they be in the best shape on
Saturday but without I think the big thing in one
of the I think the features of the period was
you've got to build independence in your athletes because that's
(15:55):
what they've got to be like on the field. So
if you've got a very big staff, you can become
quite dependent, like the athlete's going to get dependent on
you because you did everything for anything happening.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So it was like a.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Trying to build an environment where people could still keep learning,
still manage their own lives. But we seamlessly have a
lot of things there, the tools in place, the structures
in place, so that that could happen.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So was the financial pressure, I mean, it's a professional game.
Did you have to soak up some of the you know,
the commercial side of it.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I think we're both from a you know, a revenue perspective,
making sure that there was a good fit between some
of the companies we're partnering with and and sort of
the values that the team holds really highly. And similarly,
the only coaches want more and more and I need
this coach, I need this coach, And so it was
(16:41):
often a case of we had a great we had
great chairs, we had great boards that I guess in
a lot of ways we educated them about performance so
that they could support us in the way that we needed.
And I guess we're always conscious of the fact that
while we needed what we needed, the pool of money
that we were taking from was also.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
For the whole of the game, right, Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
While we had a share of it where you had
to be careful and yes, we drove a lot of
the revenue.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, but drives revenue.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I guess, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I mean you probably talked about this a bit, but
obviously you were went through the lows and then the
highs with the all blacks. I mean, do you're cool?
You know how it sort of changed the way you
looked at it, sort of like say two thousand and
seven compared to twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Well, there was a lot of Again, it's about sort
of the mindset you take into the losses.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Bill Gates said, you know, success as a lousy teacher,
and I actually go, well, Bill, we were eighty three percent.
So if you lean into learning lessons, it doesn't matter
whether you win or lose. You've got to in high performance,
you've got to constantly be learning because the because the
margins are so small and everyone wants to be at
the top of the mountain and there's only room for one,
and so you're either there or you're not.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And it can be cruel, right because you've done all
the work and and everything might have gone really well.
The ball can bounce a funny way. That's it, and
that's and then the rest of New Zealand just you know,
raps one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I know, I just ended up being quite pragmatic and go,
I can only do what I can do, and I've
just got to be proud of what I've done. And
when you went eight out of ten times, it's actually
that became more challenging than losing more often, if you
know what I mean, because your complacency can arrive very quickly,
and it's it's almost like a silent thing that you
don't actually know it until they run on the field
(18:31):
or you watched the first five minutes ago. We're not there,
So it was, yeah, it was Actually the value of
seven was that we did a pretty rigorous review. Like
Graham nearly lost his job. Thankfully, the board realized that
a team him, Steve and Wayne were a team, and
that was we were blessed to have those three gentlemen,
you know, so it allowed us to carry on. But
(18:54):
the lessons we learned from OST seven actually served us
for ten years because we kept coming back to them
to say we wouldn't forget. And I think even last year,
before I went to France, I pulled out the O
seven report. Is there anything we're missing going back back here?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And so if you lean into it, it's fine, but
it does take its toll.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, I mean, is there how much of it?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Getting the psychology right? I mean, sports psychology is a
big thing. Now you have to work with the players
and get the mindset right. I mean, is that one
of the biggest challenges.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I think it was probably the biggest thing that defined
our period that we decided to take that on because
we used to have the saying and the team it's
easy to sweat and like the player, you're going and
tell them to do more gym work, they'll do it.
You tell them to run more, they'll do it. But OK,
how about them go and sit down and work on
your mental skills or look at how you cope with
pressure or why you made that decision. And actually that's
a skill, and it's the one you've got to learn,
(19:47):
And I think the biggest thing we learned out of
seven was if we had to define what our job was,
we had to build self reliance in our players so
they could lead themselves, and we had to make them
really good at making the decisions under pressure. So everything
we did had to be about that. So if you're
talking operationally, i'd want to just give them the plan.
I wanted to go and find it and see what
(20:09):
it meant for them and determine what their plan looked
like for the week. So those were sort of constantly
trying to build this independence and people.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, And that was I think in the end, probably
the thing that shifted us the most. That realizing that
the mental side of the game was as important as
a physical side, as technical as a technical as as
the food you eat, as is having life sorted at home,
That there was all these factors in getting an athlete
ready to play.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Just to bring it back to money, but you know
that the in the old days, especially maybe the early
days of professionalism, because there wasn't money before then, but
you know, there was that sense that sometimes you know
that the player, not all blacks necessarily, but sports players
would have a short career and make a lot of
money and struggle. Was there sort of support, you know,
do the players get support about how to manage the
(20:56):
financial side of their lives and things as well, so
that they.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, I think that one of the real strengths was
the and at times it's testy the relationship between the
Players Association and the organization and they've got a real
high level of care for players and so I think
in my very early days at Canterbury there was a
pilot done of what they call a player development manager,
so someone that comes in with the full responsibility just
for looking for plaers life outside of araby, so family, education, employment,
(21:22):
and it was a voluntary program but it's still to
this day in place. So that's one aspect where there's
a real good opportunity for people to jump into that
and set themselves up. The second was that as the
sport got more and more, professional agents became a part
of the scene and a lot of them do really
good work in that space in terms of helping get
players set up.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's a strange thing and really you know, young young
people getting quite a high salary quite early and then
but maybe with a relatively short window, you know, or
ten years or something like that, had to set themselves up.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Hard to you know, in the pre professional days, you
could probably still do a degree and be an all.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, but it was quite hard to do.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You know. We had a few players would still do
a paper a year, you know, but it was hard
even I am noticing more though. One thing we did
learn was if if we could give them more real
life experiences outside of sport while they were a sports person,
was really valuable because they often did miss that real
life experience. You just come into this world where everything's
there for you, and so a lot of them would
(22:25):
go and jump into a company and do a day's
work just to see what it's like having experience. And
I see more of that now, which I think is
it was a really good thing because Offen, you get
to thirty, you're done, and you're like you've got nothing?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
What?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Now?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
And I mean I finished twenty years and it was
the same. You know, in a lot of ways, I've
got a whole lot of skills, but how do I
best utilize them? So?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, what was it was? It just felt like
time to do something different. Yeah, I mean I guess
it's a difficult job to do. You're doing it for
as long as you did, it was almost quite remarkable
in itself. Really when you look around the world top
level sports.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think what I have learned is it success is
built on experience too, you know, like too often in
sport results become so parament that people just get chopped
and in the end it's again I go back to
this whole notion of teams, you know, because there was
a consistency of people over a long period allowed systems
and structures and cultures to be built that were sustainable,
(23:23):
you know, and people the type of people they wanted
to keep improving. So that was a that was a
really sort of key element to it.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
I think, Yeah, I've got a few more sort of
specific quick fire questions about money that we ask, but
we can keep bringing it back to some of the
stuff about teams and performance.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
But looking back, what's the poorest you ever.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Been at university? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I think when I finished university I was heading off
to Queenstown. My last couple of year at university, I
got into doing traithline something out to buy bikes and
things like that, and the student loan blearned out of it,
you know. And I don't think actually had student loans,
and I think we had overdrafts. Yeah, and so I
headed to Queenstown. I was bunking down and the mates
(24:13):
flat in the lounge for probably the first six weeks,
and every day going to the money machine and hoping
there was enough to buy some food. Yeah, and I
didn't really have a job because I was still training,
still do my raft guides training. Managed to pick up
a driving job which kind of just kept me going
until I got my rafting ticket, and then the summer arrived,
(24:33):
so there was plenty of works.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So that was the first first real job you had,
was as a rafting guide or yeah, yeah, yeah when
you I guess might not have been then, but at
some point when you when you finally had a bit
of money in your pocket, was there something that you
splashed out on or that you sort of thought finally
I can afford now.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I was kind of always drawn to the things that
I was most interested in, you know, So again probably
a bit like the analogy around buying the pads when
I played cricket, you know. Yeah, in Queenstown it was
all about skiing, so you need to have every season
of ski and mountain biking has sort of just taken off.
And I'd been into that trithon it sort of stopped
for me, and I'd got into mountain biking and trail running, and.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
So there was always that.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
But I think in the long time, I'd always had this,
Like most keys, I always wanted to get my own place. Yeah,
and so yeah, I bought a place in Queenstown in
nineteen eighteen, and.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Well that was a good move.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Got move, yeah, because I guess that, but it was
it wasn't like I had nothing, though you wanted to
live up getting two loans from two different banks to
one for a deposit and one for the mortgage. But
I paid like sixty thousand dollars for a two bedroom
townhouse or something, and.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It really sort of all took off from there.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It was crazy, and I got out reasonably early, maybe
five or six years later, and now I did well,
But I look at what I could have done.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's always you know, yeah, I mean, you know, it
almost certainly isn't for most people. But how much as
money and those financial things been a driver through through
your career, not.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Really, I you know, I never actually wanted the all
Black job, like it wasn't something that I sort of
had put on my life path. Kind of circumstances allowed
it to happen, and I never was one to really
sort of debate what I got paid. Just always felt,
you know, pay me what my worth. I think I've
only once in my whole career gone back to I
(26:26):
think we need to get a look at this, But
I just felt it sounds a little bit colcher, but
I actually felt incredibly privileged to have that job. You know,
like some of the people that have been before me,
the circles of people that you had to work with,
the opportunities that popped up which now have all become
you know, networks and relationships that have been built, and.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
The history, I mean the history and the value in
that brand for New Zealand. I mean that all Blacks
is probably the biggest brand we've got.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I think it's certainly been helpful, and I guess I
always a bit, like I said earlier, always felt I
was pretty ordinary, but I was part of something extraordinary
and and just sort of realizing the contribution you're making
became more important and how it's it's very inspiring being
in an environment that were you see the effort that
people are putting in all the time, and you can't
(27:17):
get caught up in it yourself and think, well, gosh,
I've got to how can I be the best version
of myself?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And terrifying. I mean in some ways the passion puts
it on a level, like, you know, people care about
the economy and if your finance minister or Reserve bank governor,
you've got a lot of pressure. But people actually probably
more likely to get upset. And you know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I think again, that's just how you always.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
And we I think a big turning step from OS
seven and actually say let's walk towards pressure. Let's not
be afraid of it. Let's how cool is that we
can we can do things people have never done before.
And it became more above the line in terms of
our aspiration. Then I'll let it get to you and
you have to you have to be skinned. Yes, you
have to not take things too personally because it'll ruin you.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
From my side, the media, is it tough dealing with
the media from an all blacks perspective?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think the thing I wouldn't say it was tough.
I think the thing that happened over the period. I
was just the expansion of the media. Yeah, you know,
so suddenly you had you had a group of media
who are used to it being doing a certain way,
and then suddenly you've got all these other layers that
there was just as much expectation for us to deliver
to them as it was to what I'd call there
was traditional in you and so then and then you
lay in broadcasting, so then became like the biggest funder.
(28:33):
So you've you've got to accommodate them. Then you've got
the new media, social and and so it became that
became the challenge, trying to get the balance right, trying
to meet everyone's needs, but then still not let it
become a distractor for performance.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah. I guess what I did struggle with at.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Times was more from outside where plays couldn't cope with it,
and I think that fell on us to get them
better prepared to be able to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You know, it's always felt the media, training.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Felt the media with the the conduit to the fans,
you know, and like so you know, I'm not talking
to you, I'm talking to the audience, you know, And
so trying to get that in place. But yeah, like
it was one of those jobs you're never going to
get everyone satisfied, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And so you can't worry too much.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, And it.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Was really you always trying to get that people to
see that you're accessible, and then often the mainstream wouldn't
see the accessible. We've done all these things which we
hadn't invited the media too, because we just wanted to
do the right thing by.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
A charity or or make a wish for a kid.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Or something like that. So it was a real it
was a it was a balance, you know, it was
tough going.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, when you spend money on yourself, now, what's the
most sort of indulgent things you'd do for yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I've still always been about the toys. Yeah, but I
got kids and pretty passionate about them having their best chance,
you know. So I got a daughter at UNI and
a daughter nearly finished high school. So and I think
now I've got the chance to spend more, you know,
while we were away let's say three to four months
a year there eight months I work from home. So
I was actually really lucky. I wasn't a nine to
(30:03):
five Yeah, Yeah, so that was that was actually good
I used to say to my wife, you know, eight months,
I'm actually at home, you know, even though and I
could pick and choose what I do. So but now
just you watching watching them be successful, and they've only
known me doing you know, so they didn't know what
a nine to five dad was because I wasn't. I
was in that person.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
You're still you know, You've still got a sports you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, I'm still very passionate about biking, so do a
lot of mountain biking, road cycling, and still run. I
can still get the old carcass around.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
The bottes are still holding out.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm still skiing, still probably my my biggest passion,
and done a little bit of surfing the last few years, which.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Of course enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
You've got a garage full of plenty of gear.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, I just I don't know, just it's it's it's
just a I just find there's a connection with pushing
yourself physically that you kind of can get into this
while it's hard physically, you kind of get into the
states sometimes where it's actually really good for you.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
A great place I can find just riding the bike,
A great place to think, you know. Yeah, I just
started to use surriy to record things while I ride,
you know, because all these great ideas come, you.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Know, yeah, just while you let your brain. Yeah, it's
quite dictative. I find that with running right, you just
chagging along and your brain can, yeah, go through very
good thoughts. A question I've been asking people is about
whether you buy lotto tickets and if you imagine winning lotto,
how much do you imagine winning?
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't know, Like it used to be like a
million dollars was a lot, wasn't it. Yeah, And now
we have jackpots that are thirty so I don't I
kind of I'm very much sort of living inside the
bubble of what I can control.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, I still buy to take it every week, but
don't pay much notice to it.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
And you know, yeah, yeah too, I'm like, oh, I
haven't ticked that, you know, sort of have it because
called me ask it?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Because you know, sometimes the idea of winning thirty million
dollars or something like that might be actually quite traumatic
upheaval of life and then you've got to manage money
and all that sort of thing. Yeah, and another big
question and answer it how you'd like, really, But you know,
when when you look at New Zealand and and you
(32:10):
know the issues that we have in a whole bunch
of areas, social, inequality, all those sort of things. If
we could make you Prime Minister for the day and say,
you know, focus on one thing, what what the what's
the area that you'd like to do you think would
be most important to work on.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I guess one of the big principles I learned through
the orbects was this whole notion of like ownership and
responsibility and like living above the line constantly because it's
much more future based. It's a much happier place to
be and you're actually like you're generating things. And my
my fear in this country is often we tend to
(32:50):
go to blame really quickly and excuses. And that's what
I learned in high performance. You can't live in that
space like because you just don't perform. You've got to
constantly improve and constantly learn. So and the tall Poppy
syndrome just kills me in this country because it's not
until you go globally actually see how amazingly we good
(33:11):
we are both in business and sport. You know, to
be honest, and some of the the country of our size.
It's unbelievable what we do and even I look back
at all Black Legacy and go I don't think people
really appreciate fact that we only played the top ten
teams in the world every week. Yeah, you know, and
that's unreal. So yeah, that to me, it's it's more
(33:32):
an attitude, I think, like the more of a mindset
of how can we just own own our stuff and
let's let's just keep advancing because we've done so many
great things.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah. Yeah, it feels like sometimes New Zealand gets in
a good space and then sometimes it gets in a
quite a bad space. I mean, it's been a tough
few years, I guess. But yeah, when you when you
think about you know, that tall poppy thing. It's been
part of our culture for years. Phrase. Do you think
you know there is it just being a small population
(34:00):
being isolated you I.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Think so, And probably because we know someone that knows
someone you know and you know, the six degrees of separation.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, and it probably comes from a place of like
wanting to feel ownership or passion.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Or skin in the game, you know. I think we
have a lot of that, But yeah, I just wish
we'd celebrate more, you know, just enjoy the moments. And
I'm talking to myself here because I didn't, and I
was so committed to the cause that often I'd miss
the fact that we're just held onto the bleedter though
for the seventeenth year, and I wouldn't take that moment,
you know, and consider all the work I've done.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
And record at Eden Park. I mean there must I
don't know if there's any other team in the world.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
As soon as it's taken, when you have those bad moments,
that's when you really feel like, oh man, I wish
i'd enjoyed that. So, yeah, that's probably the thing I
look at the most politically and go, I just wish
people would keep giving us hope and keep giving us
what the future could look like, so that we've got
something we can, you know, aspire to be sure.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, well, just finally, then, can you just take us
back to what's on the agenda now and what the
plans are and how you plan to work this new
role with vanter Set.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, so with Varner Set. So the founder.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Craig and I actually taught skiing together way back in Queenstown,
and I was always Craig had a sort of unique
perspective on things, which I really loved. And I got
into the all black role and I saw him some
of the writing he was saying about in some of
the ideas, and I was like, I really, I can
see what we're doing. I can see a connection there.
And again it went back to that whole principle of
(35:30):
how are we going to get everyone better, which is
something I found in sport was always about sandpapering. How
can we get it better? And how can we make
the whole team better? You know, not just it's not
just focus on the leadership or on the strategy, but
let's focus on the whole group and build an environ
where everyone wants to because funny thing happens when you
get everyone on the same page, all the outcomes and
(35:52):
the measurements all will increased to And so Craig and
I've talked for a lot of years and I was
sort of familiar where it was going. And when he
got the idea of this platform, I was like, well,
is the way I can help you with that? You know?
Can I be an external advisor? Can I help with
program delivery and things like that? So that's the thing
excites me. We've talked a bit. At the moment it's
(36:13):
business focus, but we probably believe in time it could
be something that could work really well in professional sport
as well. Yeah, which would be something i'd really you know,
take away. It takes away a lot of a clutter
and just gives it. I know in sport that structure
is really important and this just provides that, and it
gives people the tools right at their fingertips to just
improve every day, which I really love.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
It's global ambassador, is that right? So it's a globally
focused business.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, And I think so, you know, whatever sector they
go into, I feel I can help contribute to the
overall program and the principles of it and provide, let's
I'm a p academic and an academic, you know, I
think provide really good practical examples of how those ideas, philosophies,
practices work and share examples with people so they can
sort of actually start to believe I actually, if I
(36:59):
do that, I'll at this. So that's the part that
excites me is and it was no different in rugby.
I loved I love watching the journey of a platform
when he started as a Rockie through to when he
finished and then the person he became after. And I
think that's the same and it's the same sort of
principle I can bring to to working with Craigan and
has people on that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's great. Look, I'm going to leave it there, but
thanks for talking to us now.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Hey, you very welcome.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Thank you is thanks for listening to this episode of
Money Talks. If you want to get in touch, drop
me a line at Liam dot Dan at inzme dot
co dot nz and you can read more from me
at inzidherld dot co dot nz. Thanks to my producer
Ethan Sils and sound engineer Liam McDonald. Follow Money Talks
(37:41):
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, with new
episodes available every Thursday.
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at Large,
and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is
a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell
you how to get rich, and we're not going to
try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series,
I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money
has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years.
(00:28):
For today's podcast, I'm joined by the former manager of
the All Blacks and now founder of Winning Teams, Darren Shanned. Hi, Darren, Look,
thanks for being here. Very high profile role with the
All Blacks obviously, and that's how people know you. So
I'm interested. It's been how long since you stepped away?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I finished after the World Cup last year. Yeah, so
I've had a bit of time with the new group,
just to pass on as much as I could. Yeah. Yeah, So,
you know, I guess I believe Black so I really
wanted them to do well too. You know, I think
it's a you always. I think you talk a lot
in the All Blacks about leaving the place and in
good shape and leaving the Jersey in a good place.
So a nice transition, a nice transition and actually just
(01:11):
loving being a fan white thing to them do their
out their work.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Now it's in a good season so far, and so
you've you're effectively transitioning some of the skills that you
brought to managing the All Blacks into sort of a
business world. Is that is that how you look at
what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, Like I think when I sat down at the
end of last year and just reflected on who I
am now, there was a whole I guess, a whole
lot of principles and philosophies I've learned through that time there,
And so how can I turn that into something else?
And we're pretty quickly settled on the fact that I
just love being like a team player, that there was
real strength and team and when you could bring a
(01:49):
lot of good people together, combine them build a great environment,
you could achieve great things, you know, and even an
ordinary person can do quite extraordinary things, you know, when
you've got a teams. So, yeah, with the help of
a few people, and I've always liked to put my
hand up for help, and yeah, so I found some
really good people who had worked in that space, and
we sort of just build an idea really around how
(02:13):
how can we help both sports and business build winning teams,
you know, and build teams that support teams. Often with
the or Blacks, you see the team on the field,
but you don't see the team behind the team and
what role they play. So that was kind of the
general principle. And I look at businesses, most of them
the teams, a board as a team, an executive team
as a team, and so how do they are they
really performing at a high level? And what makes a
(02:35):
great team?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So yeah, I mean, is it a straight does it
translate quite cleanly? I guess I'm trying to find the
right word. But you know that getting in that high
performance zone for sports and you know you've got to
switch on at the right moment and you've got to
relax at the right moment, all that sort of stuff.
Do you find that that translates quite well into the
world of business.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I think it does, and that I think in business
there's probably a way. It's been a way of doing things,
and so now that sport has become a business, we've
learned it to do it a different way. And so again,
if you come with a growth mindset versus a fixed
mindset and think well, how can we how can we
just look at this through a different lens, which is
what we had to do. Where were high performance as
(03:17):
such small margins and that you've got to adapt and
earn really fast. You have a bit more time in business,
so actually you've got space, And I guess the big
thing I've learned was actually to get missuses to actually
they don't actually look at performance in that sense what
is actually high performance? They tend to be more metric based.
And often I tell the story quite often people would say,
(03:39):
you guys are judged by win. Last I said, well,
that's what the outside will see, but that's not what
we're driven by. And so we're not an outcome yes,
to the public, we're an outcome based to organization. That's
what high performance sport is often measured by. But internally
we were driven by a whole lot of other things
that actually allowed us to achieve those outcomes. You know,
and often I think, you know, if a business is
driven by a profit, well but what does that all mean?
(04:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, so it was looking at at an individual level
kind of like as you said, like businesses will often
have a metric which they're sharing with the team or
an algorithm. They're trying to beat certain targets. But are
you sort of suggesting that we probably should do a
little bit more work inside our heads.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah. I think.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What I learned the most was that first you got
to have yourself sorted. And what I see a lot
in business is this what i'd call sort of very
vertically oriented organizations where position and power mean everything. And
what I've found in sport is it we probably tended
to operate more at a horizontal level, where we collaborated
(04:43):
a lot more to order to move up the vertical
access and in the end, like position became irrelevant because
it was actually more about role and each person. If
you take the sport analogy, when you go into a
field in a rugby game, everyone gets a jersey has
a number on it that just defines a role. And
so often I feel people are so in a hurry
(05:04):
to get further up the ladder, Yeah, they actually forget
about improving themselves. And I think that's what we did
in sport, was if we can get you the best
we can be, the team will win and you will win,
like it'll be a duel due outcome. So those are
some of the ideas I've been sharing and trying to
There's certainly questions that come hard at you from businesses around,
But that's easy in sport. You know, we couldn't do
(05:24):
that in business. But I've found lots of ways to
sort of talk around those stories and find different different options,
different loads of thinking.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
All right, that's great. I'd like to come back to
some of those things as we chat. But you know,
with money talks, we always like to go back and
get a bit of your backstory and how you ended
up on this all Blacks journey and frame it with
you know, some memories of money. So I guess first
thing I would ask is, you know, do you have
an earlier, earliest memory of money, the first time you
(05:55):
might have held money in your hand.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Probably Monopoly, Yeah, with the family family holidays and that
was always a big big piece of the beach holiday
in the caravan and monopoly and competer to the games.
Oh yeah, super competitive, yeah, very very much so. And
probably we lived. I grew up in Hawk's Bay and
we lived just on the outskirts of Hastings and makes
(06:19):
all the orchards, and so pretty early on I was
next door in the orchard getting paid ten cents for
every used to make wooden boxes to put the fruit
and and so that was my first job putting those boxes.
Given thinking off, I get one hundred done today, you
know ten bucks?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, hard work.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Hard work, but yeah, that was good.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It was that sort of after school or just the
season right and.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
School holidays and things like that, could just jump over
the fence and going able to work there.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And with the things that things that you were saving for,
or were you spending the money down the dairy.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Or I was really like I was a sports jock,
you know, so it was always about having the best
sports here, and I was probably I always had this
aspiration to be the best I could. So I always
wanted the best stuff because I felt if I if
I looked good, I felt good that I'd play good. Yeah,
and so you know, it was always like I need
the latest cricket pads or you know, I need these
boots for rugby or for hospital.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
With the sports, because it wasn't always just you know
that rugby wasn't necessarily play rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Long stopped when I was about thirteen, and I was
doing pretty well at hockey as well, so I kind
of that became the winter thing, and cricket was a
big it was a big summer thing. So yeah, it
did well at school and reached some good levels that
I was pretty happy with, but as soon as got
to university I just pretty much dropped them. You know.
I just had a bad experience at Uni with my hockey.
(07:42):
I had some really high aspirations with hockey to go
sort of all the way, and.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Had a bad coaching experience.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Really, yeah, I just lost the love of it, you know.
Yeah's quickly discovered skiing when I was in Queenswn. Well
that looks a little bit better for the winter, so
kind of quickly sort of pivoted into really found a
love for the outdoors. And then then I moved to
Queenstown as soon as I finished my degree, really because
I just wanted to be just had that passion for
(08:10):
doing outdoor adventures.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
But right through school it was you actually did our
outdoor education or physical education as a as a as
a degree, is that right?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, So through school were those that sort of it
was a bit of science and that and.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Real mixture teaching. I think was probably the both parents
were teachers, So I remember when I was an intermediate.
A guy came into our school. He was the brother
of one of my teachers, and he was a phyzed teacher.
And this guy had like every pair of shoes for
a resport. And I was like wow, you know and
and I yeah, pretty much from that day and I
(08:45):
said to him that I'm going to Dunedin and I'm
going to study sports and physical education and never considered
anything else. Really, Yeah, I got down there. In my
first semester, we had to do some teaching like a
teaching paper, and I got sent to a I go
girls high school and I got this had my lesson plan.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Or sort of.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I could not get the girls out of the class. Yeah,
I couldn't get to be able to changing room. So I
was like, no, I'm not for teaching. So that's kind
of when the outdoor, the recreation side, a bit of
the sports science. I quite enjoyed the whole you know,
how the athletes get better and so that's the thing
with Vizita. It was quite a diverse range of topic
areas in.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A lot of different directions, but you ended up, if
I read it right, I ended up with aj Hackett
and the bungee jumping operation is that right.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, Yeah, I met aj early on when he first
came to Queenslander set the bungee up.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So how nearly is this just just like right?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Literally I don't remember. I think around nineteen eighty seventy
jumped from the Eiffel Tower and that kind of launched
the business.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And then he was in the birth of bungee jumping.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, and he sort of started at the Carlile Bridge
and that stage I was a rafting guy, so we
were going under it every day and I actually took
him rafting one day and that's how I got to
meet him, and he just said to me, if you
want to come work for me, letting me know. So
two or three years later, as I just rang him
and started off just driving the bus out to the bridge.
Who worked on the bridge, and he probably gave me.
(10:08):
He was the first person I think that really believed
that I could do more than just be a you know,
that I could lead and manage people and stuff, and
so he sort of gave me the chance. The other
thing I really learned from him was the notion of
risk and business, and he was an entrepreneur, really entrepreneurial,
took a massive risk, big vision, really big vision. Yeah.
And you know, the funny thing was that bungee was
(10:30):
a personal challenge for people, and you'd stand there in
that moment and think life's over. That was incredibly safe
and so while people saw it as a risk, the
actual risk of the process was super low, you know,
far less risky than going rafting, for example. And the
other thing I learned was when he allowed me to
lead and manage, you develop a different mindset around the
(10:52):
risk that he's carrying as a business owner versus being
a work and go, come on, mate, you've got to
pay me more. You know, I'm doing a great job here,
and you don't understand all those macare and know he
was trying to go global and go quickly, and so
it was. It was very very interesting. And the final
lesson I got from him, which I love, was whenever
he came back, because the company went international very fast,
(11:13):
he spent a lot of time if sure, and when
he came back, he had always the first thing you'd
do was organize a party, because he just wanted people
to loosen up and tell him everything that was happening.
Then the next day we would have a debrisch and
get it down to business where their other boss was like,
he would have a meeting first, anybody have a party after.
So it was it was very interesting, but an awesome
human being.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, man, I mean that that that risk thing is
interesting because that is a big part of you know,
when I talk to successful people often it's it's that
ability to assess risk well. I mean people you know,
as you say, there's different different kinds of risk and
different levels of risk, and you know often we're kind of,
(11:51):
you know, a motive about you know, how risky something is.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I think he was.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It was almost like they were on a wave and
they just kept surfing it for a while. And the
good thing was the process and this and the structures
around the actual operation were so sound, you know, and
that he had done all that work well before he
launched it. So but it never removed the challenge that
everyone faced when they took the step out to the edge,
(12:17):
which was the really nice thing about it.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
So how long we were I had about.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Five years with them, and I kind of got to
the point of my crew just about ten thirty and
I was like, what next, you know, I thought about
doing an NBA. Actually went through the process of you
have to sit an entrance thingsam So.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I inspired by doing more of business stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, I just felt I had more and I sort
of felt there was a ceiling in Queenstown at that stage.
Tourism was the late eadies, early noise was probably the
first sort of big food to change.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah. Yeah, and I just felt.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I could do more, and I sort of felt sport
really the calling of sports somehow, and so an opportunity
just popped up in the role with aj Hackett was
sales and marketing role, and so a rugby role popped
up in sort of sponsorship in the commercial side with
the Canterbury Rugby. So you just went up and had
an interview and I was pretty fortunate that that must
(13:12):
have been. Was that pretty super rugby? No, it was
just just as it was ninety eight, Yeah, just early
days of professionals, so you still had a lot of something.
Was the ninety six was year one, Yeah, so you
had that whole transition where guys had sort of started
the amateur and now they were being paid. Yeah, so
it went from being the fun to their job. So
it was a fascinating time.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
A sort of step back. Basic question here is just
can you take us through what a team manager does
for rugby team, you know, because in football in the
in the UK and things, the manager often sort of
means the coach, but it's different in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right, Yeah, well there's I guess the role that I
first had was when I started with Sta Graham here,
it was actually the general manager and so technically Graham
reported to me, and so when we sat down to
discuss how it was going to work, he said, Darren,
I just want to coach and I just want you
to sort out everything else, and so I said fine.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So that's what we did.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Where it probably finished was there's probably two big buckets
to the role, So it was it was set up
as a leadership role. So one was to provide a
bridge between the organization and the team, so I said,
on the executive of the organization because a lot of
decisions that were made commercially, financially, legally impacted the team
and performance. So I needed to be part of that
(14:34):
conversation and provide an all back perspective to everything within
New Zealand Rugby. So that was one part. So that
whole business side, all the commercial stuff, the communications, all
of that, and then on the team side was really
just the operation, which is, you know, seventy people traveling
around the world. We don't have a base, a little logistics,
(14:54):
a lot of logistics, a lot of operational requirements. Basically
allowing the coach to turn up to any training field
in here in the world and knowing that it's pristine,
every piece of equipment and needs secure et cetera. So, yeah,
that was a big and there was a big team
of people contributing to that, and that sort of grew
and grew the more you imagine probably the last team,
(15:17):
you suddenly security became a real big issue for us.
Not protecting ourselves from spies or anything, but just the
world we're now playing in Paris, there's a level one
security of it. How we're going to manage ourselves, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So there's a lot of sol I mean, you're solving
a lot of problems so that the team and the
coach don't have to deal with them.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I guess you're sort of enabling the team to be
able to get on and do their thing and with
limited distractions and constantly thinking about the performance equation and that,
so how can they be in the best shape on
Saturday but without I think the big thing in one
of the I think the features of the period was
you've got to build independence in your athletes because that's
(15:55):
what they've got to be like on the field. So
if you've got a very big staff, you can become
quite dependent, like the athlete's going to get dependent on
you because you did everything for anything happening.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So it was like a.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Trying to build an environment where people could still keep learning,
still manage their own lives. But we seamlessly have a
lot of things there, the tools in place, the structures
in place, so that that could happen.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So was the financial pressure, I mean, it's a professional game.
Did you have to soak up some of the you know,
the commercial side of it.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I think we're both from a you know, a revenue perspective,
making sure that there was a good fit between some
of the companies we're partnering with and and sort of
the values that the team holds really highly. And similarly,
the only coaches want more and more and I need
this coach, I need this coach, And so it was
(16:41):
often a case of we had a great we had
great chairs, we had great boards that I guess in
a lot of ways we educated them about performance so
that they could support us in the way that we needed.
And I guess we're always conscious of the fact that
while we needed what we needed, the pool of money
that we were taking from was also.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
For the whole of the game, right, Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
While we had a share of it where you had
to be careful and yes, we drove a lot of
the revenue.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, but drives revenue.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I guess, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I mean you probably talked about this a bit, but
obviously you were went through the lows and then the
highs with the all blacks. I mean, do you're cool?
You know how it sort of changed the way you
looked at it, sort of like say two thousand and
seven compared to twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Well, there was a lot of Again, it's about sort
of the mindset you take into the losses.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Bill Gates said, you know, success as a lousy teacher,
and I actually go, well, Bill, we were eighty three percent.
So if you lean into learning lessons, it doesn't matter
whether you win or lose. You've got to in high performance,
you've got to constantly be learning because the because the
margins are so small and everyone wants to be at
the top of the mountain and there's only room for one,
and so you're either there or you're not.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And it can be cruel, right because you've done all
the work and and everything might have gone really well.
The ball can bounce a funny way. That's it, and
that's and then the rest of New Zealand just you know,
raps one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I know, I just ended up being quite pragmatic and go,
I can only do what I can do, and I've
just got to be proud of what I've done. And
when you went eight out of ten times, it's actually
that became more challenging than losing more often, if you
know what I mean, because your complacency can arrive very quickly,
and it's it's almost like a silent thing that you
don't actually know it until they run on the field
(18:31):
or you watched the first five minutes ago. We're not there,
So it was, yeah, it was Actually the value of
seven was that we did a pretty rigorous review. Like
Graham nearly lost his job. Thankfully, the board realized that
a team him, Steve and Wayne were a team, and
that was we were blessed to have those three gentlemen,
you know, so it allowed us to carry on. But
(18:54):
the lessons we learned from OST seven actually served us
for ten years because we kept coming back to them
to say we wouldn't forget. And I think even last year,
before I went to France, I pulled out the O
seven report. Is there anything we're missing going back back here?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And so if you lean into it, it's fine, but
it does take its toll.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, I mean, is there how much of it?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Getting the psychology right? I mean, sports psychology is a
big thing. Now you have to work with the players
and get the mindset right. I mean, is that one
of the biggest challenges.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I think it was probably the biggest thing that defined
our period that we decided to take that on because
we used to have the saying and the team it's
easy to sweat and like the player, you're going and
tell them to do more gym work, they'll do it.
You tell them to run more, they'll do it. But OK,
how about them go and sit down and work on
your mental skills or look at how you cope with
pressure or why you made that decision. And actually that's
a skill, and it's the one you've got to learn,
(19:47):
And I think the biggest thing we learned out of
seven was if we had to define what our job was,
we had to build self reliance in our players so
they could lead themselves, and we had to make them
really good at making the decisions under pressure. So everything
we did had to be about that. So if you're
talking operationally, i'd want to just give them the plan.
I wanted to go and find it and see what
(20:09):
it meant for them and determine what their plan looked
like for the week. So those were sort of constantly
trying to build this independence and people.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, And that was I think in the end, probably
the thing that shifted us the most. That realizing that
the mental side of the game was as important as
a physical side, as technical as a technical as as
the food you eat, as is having life sorted at home,
That there was all these factors in getting an athlete
ready to play.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Just to bring it back to money, but you know
that the in the old days, especially maybe the early
days of professionalism, because there wasn't money before then, but
you know, there was that sense that sometimes you know
that the player, not all blacks necessarily, but sports players
would have a short career and make a lot of
money and struggle. Was there sort of support, you know,
do the players get support about how to manage the
(20:56):
financial side of their lives and things as well, so
that they.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, I think that one of the real strengths was
the and at times it's testy the relationship between the
Players Association and the organization and they've got a real
high level of care for players and so I think
in my very early days at Canterbury there was a
pilot done of what they call a player development manager,
so someone that comes in with the full responsibility just
for looking for plaers life outside of araby, so family, education, employment,
(21:22):
and it was a voluntary program but it's still to
this day in place. So that's one aspect where there's
a real good opportunity for people to jump into that
and set themselves up. The second was that as the
sport got more and more, professional agents became a part
of the scene and a lot of them do really
good work in that space in terms of helping get
players set up.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's a strange thing and really you know, young young
people getting quite a high salary quite early and then
but maybe with a relatively short window, you know, or
ten years or something like that, had to set themselves up.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Hard to you know, in the pre professional days, you
could probably still do a degree and be an all.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, but it was quite hard to do.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You know. We had a few players would still do
a paper a year, you know, but it was hard
even I am noticing more though. One thing we did
learn was if if we could give them more real
life experiences outside of sport while they were a sports person,
was really valuable because they often did miss that real
life experience. You just come into this world where everything's
there for you, and so a lot of them would
(22:25):
go and jump into a company and do a day's
work just to see what it's like having experience. And
I see more of that now, which I think is
it was a really good thing because Offen, you get
to thirty, you're done, and you're like you've got nothing?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
What?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Now?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
And I mean I finished twenty years and it was
the same. You know, in a lot of ways, I've
got a whole lot of skills, but how do I
best utilize them? So?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, what was it was? It just felt like
time to do something different. Yeah, I mean I guess
it's a difficult job to do. You're doing it for
as long as you did, it was almost quite remarkable
in itself. Really when you look around the world top
level sports.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think what I have learned is it success is
built on experience too, you know, like too often in
sport results become so parament that people just get chopped
and in the end it's again I go back to
this whole notion of teams, you know, because there was
a consistency of people over a long period allowed systems
and structures and cultures to be built that were sustainable,
(23:23):
you know, and people the type of people they wanted
to keep improving. So that was a that was a
really sort of key element to it.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
I think, Yeah, I've got a few more sort of
specific quick fire questions about money that we ask, but
we can keep bringing it back to some of the
stuff about teams and performance.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
But looking back, what's the poorest you ever.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Been at university? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I think when I finished university I was heading off
to Queenstown. My last couple of year at university, I
got into doing traithline something out to buy bikes and
things like that, and the student loan blearned out of it,
you know. And I don't think actually had student loans,
and I think we had overdrafts. Yeah, and so I
headed to Queenstown. I was bunking down and the mates
(24:13):
flat in the lounge for probably the first six weeks,
and every day going to the money machine and hoping
there was enough to buy some food. Yeah, and I
didn't really have a job because I was still training,
still do my raft guides training. Managed to pick up
a driving job which kind of just kept me going
until I got my rafting ticket, and then the summer arrived,
(24:33):
so there was plenty of works.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So that was the first first real job you had,
was as a rafting guide or yeah, yeah, yeah when
you I guess might not have been then, but at
some point when you when you finally had a bit
of money in your pocket, was there something that you
splashed out on or that you sort of thought finally
I can afford now.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I was kind of always drawn to the things that
I was most interested in, you know, So again probably
a bit like the analogy around buying the pads when
I played cricket, you know. Yeah, in Queenstown it was
all about skiing, so you need to have every season
of ski and mountain biking has sort of just taken off.
And I'd been into that trithon it sort of stopped
for me, and I'd got into mountain biking and trail running, and.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
So there was always that.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
But I think in the long time, I'd always had this,
Like most keys, I always wanted to get my own place. Yeah,
and so yeah, I bought a place in Queenstown in
nineteen eighteen, and.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Well that was a good move.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Got move, yeah, because I guess that, but it was
it wasn't like I had nothing, though you wanted to
live up getting two loans from two different banks to
one for a deposit and one for the mortgage. But
I paid like sixty thousand dollars for a two bedroom
townhouse or something, and.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It really sort of all took off from there.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It was crazy, and I got out reasonably early, maybe
five or six years later, and now I did well,
But I look at what I could have done.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's always you know, yeah, I mean, you know, it
almost certainly isn't for most people. But how much as
money and those financial things been a driver through through
your career, not.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Really, I you know, I never actually wanted the all
Black job, like it wasn't something that I sort of
had put on my life path. Kind of circumstances allowed
it to happen, and I never was one to really
sort of debate what I got paid. Just always felt,
you know, pay me what my worth. I think I've
only once in my whole career gone back to I
(26:26):
think we need to get a look at this, But
I just felt it sounds a little bit colcher, but
I actually felt incredibly privileged to have that job. You know,
like some of the people that have been before me,
the circles of people that you had to work with,
the opportunities that popped up which now have all become
you know, networks and relationships that have been built, and.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
The history, I mean the history and the value in
that brand for New Zealand. I mean that all Blacks
is probably the biggest brand we've got.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I think it's certainly been helpful, and I guess I
always a bit, like I said earlier, always felt I
was pretty ordinary, but I was part of something extraordinary
and and just sort of realizing the contribution you're making
became more important and how it's it's very inspiring being
in an environment that were you see the effort that
people are putting in all the time, and you can't
(27:17):
get caught up in it yourself and think, well, gosh,
I've got to how can I be the best version
of myself?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And terrifying. I mean in some ways the passion puts
it on a level, like, you know, people care about
the economy and if your finance minister or Reserve bank governor,
you've got a lot of pressure. But people actually probably
more likely to get upset. And you know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I think again, that's just how you always.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
And we I think a big turning step from OS
seven and actually say let's walk towards pressure. Let's not
be afraid of it. Let's how cool is that we
can we can do things people have never done before.
And it became more above the line in terms of
our aspiration. Then I'll let it get to you and
you have to you have to be skinned. Yes, you
have to not take things too personally because it'll ruin you.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
From my side, the media, is it tough dealing with
the media from an all blacks perspective?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think the thing I wouldn't say it was tough.
I think the thing that happened over the period. I
was just the expansion of the media. Yeah, you know,
so suddenly you had you had a group of media
who are used to it being doing a certain way,
and then suddenly you've got all these other layers that
there was just as much expectation for us to deliver
to them as it was to what I'd call there
was traditional in you and so then and then you
lay in broadcasting, so then became like the biggest funder.
(28:33):
So you've you've got to accommodate them. Then you've got
the new media, social and and so it became that
became the challenge, trying to get the balance right, trying
to meet everyone's needs, but then still not let it
become a distractor for performance.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah. I guess what I did struggle with at.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Times was more from outside where plays couldn't cope with it,
and I think that fell on us to get them
better prepared to be able to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You know, it's always felt the media, training.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Felt the media with the the conduit to the fans,
you know, and like so you know, I'm not talking
to you, I'm talking to the audience, you know, And
so trying to get that in place. But yeah, like
it was one of those jobs you're never going to
get everyone satisfied, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And so you can't worry too much.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, And it.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Was really you always trying to get that people to
see that you're accessible, and then often the mainstream wouldn't
see the accessible. We've done all these things which we
hadn't invited the media too, because we just wanted to
do the right thing by.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
A charity or or make a wish for a kid.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Or something like that. So it was a real it
was a it was a balance, you know, it was
tough going.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, when you spend money on yourself, now, what's the
most sort of indulgent things you'd do for yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I've still always been about the toys. Yeah, but I
got kids and pretty passionate about them having their best chance,
you know. So I got a daughter at UNI and
a daughter nearly finished high school. So and I think
now I've got the chance to spend more, you know,
while we were away let's say three to four months
a year there eight months I work from home. So
I was actually really lucky. I wasn't a nine to
(30:03):
five Yeah, Yeah, so that was that was actually good
I used to say to my wife, you know, eight months,
I'm actually at home, you know, even though and I
could pick and choose what I do. So but now
just you watching watching them be successful, and they've only
known me doing you know, so they didn't know what
a nine to five dad was because I wasn't. I
was in that person.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
You're still you know, You've still got a sports you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, I'm still very passionate about biking, so do a
lot of mountain biking, road cycling, and still run. I
can still get the old carcass around.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
The bottes are still holding out.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm still skiing, still probably my my biggest passion,
and done a little bit of surfing the last few years, which.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Of course enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
You've got a garage full of plenty of gear.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, I just I don't know, just it's it's it's
just a I just find there's a connection with pushing
yourself physically that you kind of can get into this
while it's hard physically, you kind of get into the
states sometimes where it's actually really good for you.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
A great place I can find just riding the bike,
A great place to think, you know. Yeah, I just
started to use surriy to record things while I ride,
you know, because all these great ideas come, you.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Know, yeah, just while you let your brain. Yeah, it's
quite dictative. I find that with running right, you just
chagging along and your brain can, yeah, go through very
good thoughts. A question I've been asking people is about
whether you buy lotto tickets and if you imagine winning lotto,
how much do you imagine winning?
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't know, Like it used to be like a
million dollars was a lot, wasn't it. Yeah, And now
we have jackpots that are thirty so I don't I
kind of I'm very much sort of living inside the
bubble of what I can control.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, I still buy to take it every week, but
don't pay much notice to it.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
And you know, yeah, yeah too, I'm like, oh, I
haven't ticked that, you know, sort of have it because
called me ask it?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Because you know, sometimes the idea of winning thirty million
dollars or something like that might be actually quite traumatic
upheaval of life and then you've got to manage money
and all that sort of thing. Yeah, and another big
question and answer it how you'd like, really, But you know,
when when you look at New Zealand and and you
(32:10):
know the issues that we have in a whole bunch
of areas, social, inequality, all those sort of things. If
we could make you Prime Minister for the day and say,
you know, focus on one thing, what what the what's
the area that you'd like to do you think would
be most important to work on.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I guess one of the big principles I learned through
the orbects was this whole notion of like ownership and
responsibility and like living above the line constantly because it's
much more future based. It's a much happier place to
be and you're actually like you're generating things. And my
my fear in this country is often we tend to
(32:50):
go to blame really quickly and excuses. And that's what
I learned in high performance. You can't live in that
space like because you just don't perform. You've got to
constantly improve and constantly learn. So and the tall Poppy
syndrome just kills me in this country because it's not
until you go globally actually see how amazingly we good
(33:11):
we are both in business and sport. You know, to
be honest, and some of the the country of our size.
It's unbelievable what we do and even I look back
at all Black Legacy and go I don't think people
really appreciate fact that we only played the top ten
teams in the world every week. Yeah, you know, and
that's unreal. So yeah, that to me, it's it's more
(33:32):
an attitude, I think, like the more of a mindset
of how can we just own own our stuff and
let's let's just keep advancing because we've done so many
great things.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah. Yeah, it feels like sometimes New Zealand gets in
a good space and then sometimes it gets in a
quite a bad space. I mean, it's been a tough
few years, I guess. But yeah, when you when you
think about you know, that tall poppy thing. It's been
part of our culture for years. Phrase. Do you think
you know there is it just being a small population
(34:00):
being isolated you I.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Think so, And probably because we know someone that knows
someone you know and you know, the six degrees of separation.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, and it probably comes from a place of like
wanting to feel ownership or passion.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Or skin in the game, you know. I think we
have a lot of that, But yeah, I just wish
we'd celebrate more, you know, just enjoy the moments. And
I'm talking to myself here because I didn't, and I
was so committed to the cause that often I'd miss
the fact that we're just held onto the bleedter though
for the seventeenth year, and I wouldn't take that moment,
you know, and consider all the work I've done.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
And record at Eden Park. I mean there must I
don't know if there's any other team in the world.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
As soon as it's taken, when you have those bad moments,
that's when you really feel like, oh man, I wish
i'd enjoyed that. So, yeah, that's probably the thing I
look at the most politically and go, I just wish
people would keep giving us hope and keep giving us
what the future could look like, so that we've got
something we can, you know, aspire to be sure.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, well, just finally, then, can you just take us
back to what's on the agenda now and what the
plans are and how you plan to work this new
role with vanter Set.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, so with Varner Set. So the founder.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Craig and I actually taught skiing together way back in Queenstown,
and I was always Craig had a sort of unique
perspective on things, which I really loved. And I got
into the all black role and I saw him some
of the writing he was saying about in some of
the ideas, and I was like, I really, I can
see what we're doing. I can see a connection there.
And again it went back to that whole principle of
(35:30):
how are we going to get everyone better, which is
something I found in sport was always about sandpapering. How
can we get it better? And how can we make
the whole team better? You know, not just it's not
just focus on the leadership or on the strategy, but
let's focus on the whole group and build an environ
where everyone wants to because funny thing happens when you
get everyone on the same page, all the outcomes and
(35:52):
the measurements all will increased to And so Craig and
I've talked for a lot of years and I was
sort of familiar where it was going. And when he
got the idea of this platform, I was like, well,
is the way I can help you with that? You know?
Can I be an external advisor? Can I help with
program delivery and things like that? So that's the thing
excites me. We've talked a bit. At the moment it's
(36:13):
business focus, but we probably believe in time it could
be something that could work really well in professional sport
as well. Yeah, which would be something i'd really you know,
take away. It takes away a lot of a clutter
and just gives it. I know in sport that structure
is really important and this just provides that, and it
gives people the tools right at their fingertips to just
improve every day, which I really love.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
It's global ambassador, is that right? So it's a globally
focused business.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, And I think so, you know, whatever sector they
go into, I feel I can help contribute to the
overall program and the principles of it and provide, let's
I'm a p academic and an academic, you know, I
think provide really good practical examples of how those ideas, philosophies,
practices work and share examples with people so they can
sort of actually start to believe I actually, if I
(36:59):
do that, I'll at this. So that's the part that
excites me is and it was no different in rugby.
I loved I love watching the journey of a platform
when he started as a Rockie through to when he
finished and then the person he became after. And I
think that's the same and it's the same sort of
principle I can bring to to working with Craigan and
has people on that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's great. Look, I'm going to leave it there, but
thanks for talking to us now.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Hey, you very welcome.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Thank you is thanks for listening to this episode of
Money Talks. If you want to get in touch, drop
me a line at Liam dot Dan at inzme dot
co dot nz and you can read more from me
at inzidherld dot co dot nz. Thanks to my producer
Ethan Sils and sound engineer Liam McDonald. Follow Money Talks
(37:41):
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, with new
episodes available every Thursday.
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