September 6, 2024 • 35 mins
Many autistic people have spent their lives masking, but it’s an exhausting and inauthentic way to live. Now, as understanding around neurodivergence grows, many autistics are choosing to ‘unmask’ and embrace their differences.
Autistic comedian Abby Howells has found success as her authentic, ‘unmasked’ self on stage. The things she used to hate about herself are now working for her. And she wants to encourage other autistic people to lean into who they truly are.
Guests:
Abby Howells Instagram
Dr Sarah Watson Totally Psyched
Instagram - No Such Thing as Normal Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. I thought i'd let you know right up
the top that I'm on the autism spectrum. And I
tell you that for one reason to brag.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's the voice of comedian Abbie Howse. She's a regular
on seven Days.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I reckon, I could withstand torture. How would we give
you to talk?
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Probably making me do small talk with people I don't
know very well?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
A fan favorite on Taskmaster, Abbie, Yes, what did you
bring it?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
I brought in my autism assessment sheet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
And the sweetest, loveliest person you'll ever meet, and Abbie
is proudly autistic.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
When I found out, I was like, oh my god,
everyone is going to be so surprised I have autism.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Who knew?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And the answer is everyone everyone knew.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But not everyone did know because Abby, like many autistic people,
had been masking for most of her life. Gelda, I'm
Sonya Gray and this is no such thing as normal.
Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world
of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is
(01:19):
neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD.
In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many
wonderful people who experience the.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
World in a unique way.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. In this episode,
we're looking at one aspect of the autism experience, masking,
or changing your behavior to come across as normal.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We all do it to.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Some degree, but many people on the autism spectrum have
the mask up full time. That makes daily life exhausting
because it involves practice and vigilance and effort and ignoring
their own needs. But now many like Abbie Howe's, are
exploring whether life.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Can be done without the mask.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
How young were you when you kind of went there's
something different about me.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm not like other kids.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Oh gosh, I feel like I kind of always have
felt that way. It feels feel like I'm kind of
from a different planet, or like I'm a person operated
by a robot inside. It's like a little robot in there.
That's like learning how to be a human a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That's like, that's how it feels, and Abbies had to
learn the nuances of social interaction.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Some that comes naturally to other people.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I'm like locking away information like oh yes, yes, that's
how you have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Notices I remember that for next time you are on
shows like Taskmaster, which are amazing and fun, but I
imagine quite growling and when you autistic and you have
sensory stuff going on, Patty you cope with that kind
of thing.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
It is kind of hard, yeah, because it's like really
bright lights. They also pump music really loud as well
when you walk out to make you seem cool, and
it does feel cool, but it's also like ah, and yeah,
they're exhausting, Like I love the tapings of stuff like
Seven Days and Taskmaster, but like they bleed me dry.
(03:28):
It's exhausting to do it. And also it's like I
feel like I'm a duck in the water. Like maybe
on the outside it look like I know what I'm doing,
I know how to talk to people, but it's like this, like,
oh god, this person has said something, so maybe that
means I can come in because it's a it's a
give and take.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, yeah, but that's what I don't because you see
social situations you find hard, like when do I come in?
And that's like a social situation on steroids top.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Me like it is it is you have to talk
two people in front of cameras and just know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
When being really said something, so maybe I could say, oh,
I've missed my bit, I've missed my opportunity, like that
must be so hot.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yeah. I had a bit of a wobble in the
studio of Taskmaster because the other four contestants amazing. They
were so good in the studio and they were like
and then someone would say something and then they'd like
have a perfect little quip, and I was like, oh
my gosh, these people are They're incredible.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I can't measure up to that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
But then eventually I realized, like, oh, maybe I don't
say as much, but what I do say really cuts
through and is of kind of a different energy to
everyone else. So that's kind of the best thing I
can do in those situations. Is actually because I actually
talked about it with my therapist, because I had one
seven days where I was like, I don't think I
(04:51):
was very good, and I got the negative voices in
my head, like as soon as I walked out, I
was like, everyone hates you. They're gutted that you're on
the show. They hate you. And so we started to
call those voices the viper. So it's like, oh, the
vipers come out again, and said the negative voices, but
she yeah, she was like, the best thing you can
(05:14):
do in those moments is not play the same game
as everyone else because you can't. So you've got to
invent your own game. Yeah, but they also can't play
your game.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
They can't play my game. Yeah. Yeah. That's when things
locked in for me.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Was when because like, for a while, I was like,
I've got to try to be like all these other
comedians and do joki jokes and like great observations on
life that everyone can relate to. And then eventually I realized, like, hm,
your observations on life are a little off kilter from
everyone else. Does everyone experience this and prove like no,
(05:50):
last not.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
The thing is, in many cases we are experiencing life
like that, we just don't realize it. Emmie has a
really clear way of shining a light on the ridiculousness
of many of our social norms. We're laughing because she's funny,
but we're also laughing at ourselves.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
And so what next? What does the future hold? I
really want to get a haircut. That's probably the move.
It's gone off, laughy.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
The reason I was excited about interviewing you is I
am fascinated by comedians because I have no idea why
you would do it.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, I get it. It must be terrifying. It is.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I would rather eat cold, sick stand up in front
of an audience who paid money for me to make
them laugh.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, nis sure, I know.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
It's quite psycholic to do, I think, And it is hard,
Like you're kind of putting yourself out there to be like,
you know, you're naked.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, so like you're so naked and then and it's.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Like you want people to laugh at the naked you
years totally you're giving people such a gift like laughter.
Is there anything we need more right now than laughter?
And like you're putting yourself out there to make people happy. Oh,
that's very kind of you to say. Oh it's true.
I think it's wonderful and that's a gift.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
But like the highs, like when it goes well, when
you are like in total command of the room and
everyone's going with here on everything.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I mean, that's the high that you're tasting.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Like once you get there, it's like I want to
keep getting that all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You were diagnosed three years ago, Yes, I mean, new
kid on the block. Are you Afreshie. How has having
the diagnosis the official thing changed your life?
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Hmmm, well, I think the main thing would be I'm
a lot kinder to myself than I used to be
before I knew.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was like, what's wrong with you? You freak? Like
why can't you just talk to people?
Speaker 4 (08:03):
It's so easy for everyone else, and you come out
with some absolute clangers, mate, and it seems effortless for them.
And I used to beerate myself, like not wanting to
go to parties and be.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Like, what's wrong with you? Dinger?
Speaker 4 (08:15):
And then I found out that, yeah, I was on
this spectrum, and then suddenly I think it's I think
for me, my diagnosis is like being autistic is like
it's not a good thing necessarily, it's not a bad
thing necessarily.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's neutral.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So I think just recognizing that im I'm coming at
things from a different way.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
A process kind of trusting yourself and trusting that you
as your authentic self is okay.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yes, it feels at the moment, I like that authentic
self like peeks out sometimes mostly it's kind of here,
but I'm feeling more and more kind of coming out
of a mold coming out of the hole a little bit.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
The mule's coming out of the whole little bit more
like that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And you know, the more you practice it anything, the
bitter you get. So the more that that mold comes
out of the hole, the more the mob will feel
comfortable coming out of the hole. I think one of
the reasons it's scary for people that have masked their
whole lives. And everyone masks to some degree. I have to,
and you have to do just to get by in
the world. But seriously, like head the shield up, is
(09:19):
that actually revealing who you are? And the terror of
people not liking who you authentically are is so bad.
Like if they don't like the masked you, that's somehow easier,
does it?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I'm trying to not mask as much. I'm trying to
like keep my facial expression. I used to add like
a lot of facial expressions, and now I.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Was like, well I have to, so you're adding the
facial expressions was for other people, I think.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So I think I was like, this is how this
is how a prison is.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
But yeah, so I feel I've noticed that I've been
doing that less. I've noticed that I'm a bit more
like neutral in the face.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I intervied a girl who used to practice her facial
expressions in the mirror before school.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Did you ever do anything like that?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Yeah, and practice like oh, people are going to probably
ask you how you are so oh. Practice was like
a really normal response to there. There's like the perfect
level of vulnerability because you can't just so good.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
You've got to say, well, you know, this build is
also going on.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
And then if I follow up question, yeah, anticipate the
follow up question.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I still do this actually, yeah. It just makes me
really sad. What about stuff like eye contact? Are you okay?
I'm not. Yeah. I struggle with it a little bit here.
Now I can't okay, I'm not that good. I just
feel like I'm doing it wrong all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It's definitely something I have to think about consciously of
what is a normal amount. I'm kind of thinking about
it quite a lot when I'm doing it, like it
would come naturally to someone else. But I have to think,
now it's a normal time to look up, and now
I've given myself a few seconds so you can look
away for.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
A little bit. And I don't know I'm having her thoughts.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But now I've got to come back to you, so
I'm kind of manually doing eye contact.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
The Dictionary definition of masking is the act of concealing
the existence of something by obstructing the view of it.
When we're talking about human behavior, there's something you're concealing
is how you really feel, and masking is something we
all do in certain situations we need to to fit in.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I mean, who doesn't want to feel like they're accepted
and they're liked and that you know, you're a popular person.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
That's Sarah Watson, a clinical psychologist who works with many
young autistic people.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
We hold these things in high esteem in our society,
so they're all really big motivators tu much.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
For most of us, masking is an automatic response. We
tweak our natural behavior to fit the situation. We might
be a little bit more polite than usual, or we
might pretend to be interested when we are really really not.
But for many autistic people, masking is something that takes
thought and effort and a lot of practice.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
It needs to be a conscious, deliberate process.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And that's where the exhaustion comes in when you're having
to do it for a full day.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Absolutely, and also because it means you've got to think
about what your face is doing, what your eyes are doing,
what your posture is doing, what your tone is doing,
how you're communicating, like the content of your speech, and
on and on it goes. Masking can be absolutely exhausting,
(12:54):
and it can get to the point where you can
burn out because it is just the exhaustion level from
having to do it day in, day out, day in
day out, week, month, year after year. But there's also
those that the mask that they take on is very
(13:15):
dissimilar to who they actually are. So when there is
a significant we call it incongruence in the biz, where
there's like that difference between who I am being on
the outside versus who I am on the inside, then
you can get a sense of I'm not good enough
either way. And when you have that, then your exterior
(13:39):
is kind of like, oh, I'm this, but nobody really
fully accepts that. But then when you're unmasked and I
am this and you also feel like nobody really accepts that,
then you're in this really horrible double bind where you
don't necessarily know who you are.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And if you've lived your whole life masking, it's quite
hard to take that mask off, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (14:06):
One hundred and then when and where and how and
for whom? And then also it can lead to some
really complicated feelings about yourself and your own identity, like
questions like who am I? Is this really me? Why
do I have to do this right to be able
to almost pass as neurotypical rather than just being able
(14:30):
to be me?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Do you think that society has set things up? There's
this band quite narrow band of normal and you know,
we're here all the time. Oh, be yourself and difference
is great, but it doesn't necessarily play out like that. Yeah,
we love difference, but it kind of feels like there's
(14:53):
a societal norm that no one really is living up to,
especially neurodivergent people men and neurodivegent people.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's hard to think that so many people spend their
lives desperately trying to fit in, but psychologist Sarah Watson
says it's changing. We're having more open, honest, public conversations
and that has a profound effect. Especially if you've always
thought you with a problem.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Then it's kind of like a oh my gosh, this
is a thing. You know, it's a thing that other
people experience, like I'm not alone. There's so much validation,
which we call normalizing, which is ironic because you realize
that you're you're not alone with it, and it's a
way of kind of coping perhaps with that disconnect between
(15:48):
what is expected and who.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I am that we all do.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
But when you're neurodivergent, the demands are so much more
because it has to be so intentional, right, you don't
have that automatic part that's just doing it for you
when somebody is neurotypical, that it's actually just all happens automatically, right,
(16:13):
that adjustment. Yes, when you say that to some people
who are autosticor neurodivigent, it blows their mind because they've
always had to work at it and assume that everybody
has to work at.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It, right, So they're walking around going everyone else is
really good at playing this game, and I'm failing.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
It's just me. It's defective.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
I'm not good enough. I hope that our sense of
what is normal is now broadening, right, But it can
only do that with things like this podcast, because what
that's doing is shining a light on we can be
different and it not be less right and what is
normal at the end of the day. Unfortunately, we do
(17:03):
have a social concept around what it is, and we
have we even have statistically, we have population norms, for example,
which tells us what's typical and what's not typical. So
there's a lot that leans into that concept of what
is the average, what is the norm? Which potentially means
(17:26):
that we're not really being inclusive, are we?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:31):
No, it's rather more exclusive. Like if you're not part
of that norm, then where does that leave you?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, you're rejected from the tribe, aren't you. Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah.
So in many.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Cases and a lot of cases, it's much better and
safer to work out what you need to do to
stay in the tribe, so to speak, at the expense
of who you really are. Yeh see, that just breaks
my heart for men that effort to stay in the
(18:08):
tribe starts at school. There's a slow or sometimes quick
realization that who you truly are is.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Not going to cut it. How was school for you?
Not the best?
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I think primary school was like okay, because I went
to my local primary school with like kids from my neighborhood,
and my school went from like year one to year eight,
so that you're around people your whole life.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
So I think people just.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Accepted eccentricities, like I was pretty eccential where people are
on let's just Abbie, you know, Abby gets up and
we'll do the confrontation for me Liz for the class
a cappella and there's her baby, and I was like,
there's me.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
That's a way.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
And then I went to high school and I went
to a different I didn't know anyone at my high school,
so I went from being quite confident to.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Being like, oh no, I.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Didn't realize, oh no, and how could they tell we
were in a uniform? But they could tell it was
a freak from the moment I came in. I remember
having like a mountdown in my first week. I think
I didn't realize that's what it was. But yeah, I
found that really really hard. Hated high school for the
first few years. Yeah it was stinkerzoid. But all it
(19:25):
takes is like really one person to see you, and
I think for me, that was my music teacher, mister Grant.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
My life. Sorry, I'm getting emotional. It's just whenever anyone talks.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
But having a hard time at school, yeah, it just
it breaks my heart have.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
A hard time.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
No no, I just have always had that thing. I've
got two really sensitive spots, people that had a really
hard time at school and didn't feel like they fitted in,
and people that didn't have appearance. Yeah, yeah, you have parents.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I did.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I got a lovely parents, I can yeah. Yeah, they
would see over the no her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Well, so home was always like very accepting, loving space.
So when I'd come home, it was like you're a great,
great safe place safe. Yeah, but my school experience got bitter.
Like mister Grant because he was my music teacher. We
used to spend time one on one because you'd like
practice your instrument. My instrument was my voice. I actually couldn't.
(20:25):
I was really bad at music. I just love mister Grant,
and so he sort of it was like a bit
more like my guard was down a little bit more
of mister Grant, and he could see that I was
like funny, like I used to be able to really
make mister Grant laugh, and I think he could see
I don't know, just having one person kind of see you.
I remember him saying, oh, you're really funny, and that
(20:47):
he was like quite serious. He was like a choir
master but I could really like crack him, like I
could really make him laugh, and he'd go bright red
and be like, oh and I think I don't know.
I was just having one person who's like, I can
see that you have value. I think he even told
me one time, he was like, listen, high school sucks.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
This sucks so hard.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
But when you get out of here, you're going to
realize that actually you're the cool one. But yeah, I
had a big moment which was like I played the
lion in my high school production of the Wizard of Us.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Oh my god, secured the role.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, would being really confused because like the quirky, weird
character is me.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I don't understand, but I guess I'll do it.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, that was huge, Like I got a huge boost
of confidence from there. Found the drama freaks and there
was like now we're cooking. And then by the end
I was a lot more confident at school. So the
first probably three years were hard and then last two
were like, you think it would be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Great if when a kids, any kids started school, like
when you start primary school or high school. That part
of the whole thing was let's find your thing. Yeah,
bribe the teacher that you can meet with that thing
that you love and it's make that the center, and
then all the mess and all the other stuff can
(22:06):
come around it. But then you've got that safe little
thing totally. Yeah, this isn't be that hard.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Well, I feel like you're just having one person and
being like listen, kid, I see what you're doing. You're
kind of a bit weird, bit eccentric, a little bit
show biz in a way that you don't understand yet.
Maybe not that great at acting or singing, but there's
a certain something we haven't quite.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Tevident to what is yet.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
That's the can I just I've got the vision of
you as the lion. Yeah, did you have the full
like could you see your face or was.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
It a fairly It was like tight in the face,
like full mane and face pain and like the tale.
I was like, I put on this suit and I
was like, you cannot touch me. I am electric, Like
I remember look at myself in the mirror being like yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes yes, And that is the beauty.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
I think about the stage. No one can touch you
up there, No no one could touch me.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
I didn't need to have a conversation with anyone the
conversation has already written down their lines. No worries and
no problem about that. Yeah, And I think just having
there there was huge.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You just need some wins, don't you. You just need
a few wins in this life to keep you going.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Besides nailing the role of the lion and the school production,
there was something else IBB liked about school, the structure.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Like that there was one hour of that's one of others,
and you knew the schedule like a well in advance.
So I think I did enjoy that regimented nature of things.
I've always kind of built routines into my life wherever
I go.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Really, so how about with your family like holidays or
when things were out, or with your family not as spontaneous.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Occasionally they would do that and they'd be like like,
even though technically I could, and there's no reason that
I can't, I just can't. Yeah, And so I think
I talked to them when I got the diagnosis. I
was like, I think this is something, But I love
to do stuff if it's planned. If you if my
mom's like, oh, you want to go to the shops
and get a coffee or something, I'll be like, but
(24:09):
I hadn't planned that today. But if she's like doing
a go tomorrow, I'll be like, yes, like affected it in.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I think that is so helpful, just because the way
anyone else would look at it's like, well, what do
you mean why can't you do it today?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
But it's not about that, is it? And it's about
like is it kind of a security knowing?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah? Like so that because you don't know what the
surprises are going to be.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah, and like my friends, you know, you get invites,
I'd be like, oh, I'm not doing anything doing to
come over and like watch a movie and.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I know that I can, like I'm free, but I
just had a plan for it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So and I think we can all identify with that
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think that's the secret to helping people understand is
that you go, we've all got a little bit of it.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, for you, it's just more extreme.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I get very discombobulated by changes. So that's my partner
is actually really good at that about not changing plans
or if plans are going to change, then he will
really let me know as soon as possible. And yeah,
I get really upset by plan changes and stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Can you and I know this is hard.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I just want people to understand the experience because I
think sometimes it can come across as got with you,
I'm sure, but for many like they just want their
own way, like they're not flexible, and so I just
wonder if you can tell me what it is as
best you can about the change that's hard.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Well, basically, it feels like I plan out my whole
day and my whole week, and I have the concept
of my week in my mind. Like today, I knew
that I was going to wake up and I was
going to read for twenty minutes, and then I was
going to answer some of the emails that I have
had building up, and I will do that, and then
I'll have a shower, and then I have my breakfast
(26:00):
and I have executis and breakfast every day and I
have it then and then I will go and then
after this, I'm going to do some errands and then
I'm going to come home and I have free time
and then I go to a movie tonight and that's
my day.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So and that's locked in in my mind.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
So it feels like if a plan changes, like if
someone says, oh, my friends are like, oh, actually, we're
not going to go to the movies tonright. It feels
like a whole has just been punched in this wall
that I've just built up. It's very discombobulating. It's like,
but I planned my whole day. I knew exactly when
(26:37):
I was going to have tea off, planned exactly what
I'm going to have for tea.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Everything comes tumbling down. Yeah, pull one lockout. It feels
like everything is just, yeah, come tumbling.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
That is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
What if because my daughter reads for twenty minutes in
the morning, when you see that I went, and you
cannot like that's yeah, she has to.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I have to.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, what happens if someone sees you? When you're an adult,
it's easier, you have more autonomy. But for some reason
that was taken away. I know you'd manage, but what
is it the same discompopulation. Yes, it couldn't go. I'll
just do that twenty minutes later.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Oh no way.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
I think, well I can handle it if I know
in advance that, like, oh, I'm half early morning tomorrow,
so I'm not going to get my twenty minutes. And
but like it's okay because I know what I'm doing.
But like My partner, for example, is a real chetdy
Kathy and I love that about him, but he loves
to chat. He will be like, what's going off for me?
And I was like, I love this person, which I
(27:40):
really really.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Love about him.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
But sometimes, you know, if he's chatting me when I'm
doing my twenty minutes, that's like.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
But then he because I'm a chedy Kathy, yeah over
here love cheddy Kathy.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, but my husband's probably more like you.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And sometimes I'm like, I know that he has think
he's wanting to do, but I need to get it.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I can't stop it coming.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, they don't know, and I'm trying to and I'm like,
even go, sorry, story, sorry, I just have to say it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, And I've got one more thing and he's like,
oh my god. Yeah, And so he'll pop his head
around the corner bell.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
I'm watching a really good YouTube video at the moment,
it's above this, and.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I'd be that's great.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Do you have to because my daughter, when she was younger,
if she was interrupted and that twenty it's changed it.
But sometimes it's like ten pages or something, she'd have
to start from the beginning.
Speaker 6 (28:28):
Uh yeah, kind of yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
If your needs are quite different to the supposed norm,
and you've always felt somehow wrong. You're self worth is
likely to have taken a hit. I ask Abby what
she struggles with the most.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I think so that's probably like my big worm.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
And is that like not really trusting that people like
me and thinking, oh, my friends, they're just very kind
people that are taking the time.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
To talk to me.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
And and so that's probably like the big bone that
I need to work on, which I am working on.
I go to therapy and stuff. But yeah, I do.
I think happiness is not something that comes necessarily easily
to me. So I need to work hard, I think too,
to be pretty good.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But that's another I should. Oh my god, I sound
like a therapist. Abby, that's another should. You're saying you
should work harder diagnosed. I was leaning into an impromptu
therapy session, but then Abby hit me, it's something I
wasn't expecting. There's this person that you've just met looking
at you, yeah, and asking you about yourself, And then
(29:49):
did you.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Know that actually we haven't just met. We were in
a movie together song we were I knew I knew you.
Oh my god. I had one line in a movie
was you. It was like the main character in a movie. Yeah,
and the Real Treatment.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I was not the main character in The Royal Treatment,
but Irena Castle and I did get to scream a
lot in a French accent. So you're thinking, no hair
and belittle my long suffering stuff, but your lack of
skill living not just stuff included Abbie.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
The maid night there was me, baby God, I know,
was I nice thing? You were so nice? We did
it all day. You come here today and you're like,
she's totally forgot. I had no. It was just a
surreal experience, the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
It was like this Netflix movie being made in Dneda,
and I was living in at the time. So they
put a call out for like local actors and I
came in and they were like can you do an accent?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
And I was like kind of and they were like,
you're in.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And then they gave me this character and then they
changed the characters needed to be my own name, because
I thought maybe they thought I.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Was my god Lola and you are Abigail. They work
in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
I know you, but I the blind You're like I
did thanks monologue, I remember.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
And I was was that nasty? I was quite nasty.
Yeah it was. Yeah, you help him. Yes, I'm quite sorry. Complete.
You can see everything. So and it's course it's you. Yeah,
it's me. Welcome back, Welcome to my paet true me.
(31:26):
I know you're autistic.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
I know.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I didn't know that. I wouldn't have gissed. You did
a really good job of fighting it. It's a really normal,
normal question. So normal, Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Do you feel confident being out and proud about being autistic?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I like people to know because I feel like it
takes the pressure off me a little bit. Like I
feel like if people know that I'm on the spectrum,
it's like, oh, what a relief. Like I feel like
I can really relax and just be myself and not
have to.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Tend to be normal. Yeah, I don't have.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
To process everything I do through what a normal person
say this.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
It takes the pressure off Abby, and it takes the
pressure off a whole lot of other people as well,
who are seeing and hearing someone who thinks like them.
Ebby has a platform and she's using it. Remember that
clip from the top of this episode.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Hi, everyone, I thought i'd let you know right up
the top that I'm on the autism spectrum and viral.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
To brag, the thing is sitting at like two point
five million views. It's just a one minute clop of
me doing a stand.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Up, but popularity jewels the trolls hard for anyone, but
for Abby it was devastating.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
I never experienced like that level of attention or negative
comments before, and to be honest, really raddled me, like
I got really made me sad, and it made me
not want to do a comedy anymore. But I've decided
to talk about that on stage. I'm going to turn
this experience of the video going royal into a joke.
(33:08):
And then suddenly I'm in control of it now, like
those people commenting on me, I'm in control of the story. Now,
they're only feeding the flame of me. I own the story.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Now she does own the story, and she has advice
for anyone who doesn't yet feel like they own.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
This, Like comedy has been so important to me, and
the thing that I found was like I found the
greatest success when I started to lean into more being
myself on stage. And so that would be the biggest
lesson of my whole life. That people like they like
that they like when you are yourself and you're not
(33:48):
trying to be anything else, all that stuff that I
hated about my being like slightly off celter, being into
things super intensely. I used to hate that about myself,
But as I've grown older, that thing has become my
biggest strength.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I feel so proud of that.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Like if I was to talk to my teenage self,
I would say, you are a stand up comedian and
all this you know, I know you feel like a
freaking you hate all this stuff about yourself. People are
gonna love it. You're gonna get out there and share
stories from real life and share the way that you
feel about things, and that is your success, which.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I feel was so proud. I would be so proud
to tell her that. Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And can I add to that? Can you send here
another message all the stuff you're going through, this is material.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
This is great material. Yeah. And the people that love you,
they're going to really love.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You next time on no such thing as normal.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Olympian Eric Murray and his son.
Speaker 7 (34:47):
Zech they don't quite know a lot of it as
they just don't know the intimate details around like what
having a child with autism. My ADHD and neurudiverse, right,
they don't know the stresses, you know, so people will
be looking at them going control your kid?
Speaker 5 (34:59):
Can your kid?
Speaker 7 (35:01):
Rather than oh shit, you know, like that's the problem
is the first everyone's first reaction is you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
No Such Thing as Normal is produced and presented by
me Sonia Gray. The editor is Jamie Lee Smith. Arwen
O'Connor and Mitchell Hawks are executive producers, and Bridget Mills
helped with research. The series is brought to you by
the New Zealand Herald and Team Uniform and it's made
with the support of New Zealand on Air. If you
(35:28):
like this podcast, please rate and review it it helps
people find it. New episodes of No Such Thing as
Normal are available wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi everyone. I thought i'd let you know right up
the top that I'm on the autism spectrum. And I
tell you that for one reason to brag.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's the voice of comedian Abbie Howse. She's a regular
on seven Days.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I reckon, I could withstand torture. How would we give
you to talk?
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Probably making me do small talk with people I don't
know very well?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
A fan favorite on Taskmaster, Abbie, Yes, what did you
bring it?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
I brought in my autism assessment sheet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
And the sweetest, loveliest person you'll ever meet, and Abbie
is proudly autistic.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
When I found out, I was like, oh my god,
everyone is going to be so surprised I have autism.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Who knew?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And the answer is everyone everyone knew.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But not everyone did know because Abby, like many autistic people,
had been masking for most of her life. Gelda, I'm
Sonya Gray and this is no such thing as normal.
Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world
of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is
(01:19):
neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD.
In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many
wonderful people who experience the.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
World in a unique way.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. In this episode,
we're looking at one aspect of the autism experience, masking,
or changing your behavior to come across as normal.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We all do it to.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Some degree, but many people on the autism spectrum have
the mask up full time. That makes daily life exhausting
because it involves practice and vigilance and effort and ignoring
their own needs. But now many like Abbie Howe's, are
exploring whether life.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Can be done without the mask.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
How young were you when you kind of went there's
something different about me.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm not like other kids.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Oh gosh, I feel like I kind of always have
felt that way. It feels feel like I'm kind of
from a different planet, or like I'm a person operated
by a robot inside. It's like a little robot in there.
That's like learning how to be a human a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That's like, that's how it feels, and Abbies had to
learn the nuances of social interaction.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Some that comes naturally to other people.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I'm like locking away information like oh yes, yes, that's
how you have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Notices I remember that for next time you are on
shows like Taskmaster, which are amazing and fun, but I
imagine quite growling and when you autistic and you have
sensory stuff going on, Patty you cope with that kind
of thing.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
It is kind of hard, yeah, because it's like really
bright lights. They also pump music really loud as well
when you walk out to make you seem cool, and
it does feel cool, but it's also like ah, and yeah,
they're exhausting, Like I love the tapings of stuff like
Seven Days and Taskmaster, but like they bleed me dry.
(03:28):
It's exhausting to do it. And also it's like I
feel like I'm a duck in the water. Like maybe
on the outside it look like I know what I'm doing,
I know how to talk to people, but it's like this, like,
oh god, this person has said something, so maybe that
means I can come in because it's a it's a
give and take.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, yeah, but that's what I don't because you see
social situations you find hard, like when do I come in?
And that's like a social situation on steroids top.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Me like it is it is you have to talk
two people in front of cameras and just know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
When being really said something, so maybe I could say, oh,
I've missed my bit, I've missed my opportunity, like that
must be so hot.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yeah. I had a bit of a wobble in the
studio of Taskmaster because the other four contestants amazing. They
were so good in the studio and they were like
and then someone would say something and then they'd like
have a perfect little quip, and I was like, oh
my gosh, these people are They're incredible.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I can't measure up to that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
But then eventually I realized, like, oh, maybe I don't
say as much, but what I do say really cuts
through and is of kind of a different energy to
everyone else. So that's kind of the best thing I
can do in those situations. Is actually because I actually
talked about it with my therapist, because I had one
seven days where I was like, I don't think I
(04:51):
was very good, and I got the negative voices in
my head, like as soon as I walked out, I
was like, everyone hates you. They're gutted that you're on
the show. They hate you. And so we started to
call those voices the viper. So it's like, oh, the
vipers come out again, and said the negative voices, but
she yeah, she was like, the best thing you can
(05:14):
do in those moments is not play the same game
as everyone else because you can't. So you've got to
invent your own game. Yeah, but they also can't play
your game.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
They can't play my game. Yeah. Yeah. That's when things
locked in for me.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Was when because like, for a while, I was like,
I've got to try to be like all these other
comedians and do joki jokes and like great observations on
life that everyone can relate to. And then eventually I realized, like, hm,
your observations on life are a little off kilter from
everyone else. Does everyone experience this and prove like no,
(05:50):
last not.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
The thing is, in many cases we are experiencing life
like that, we just don't realize it. Emmie has a
really clear way of shining a light on the ridiculousness
of many of our social norms. We're laughing because she's funny,
but we're also laughing at ourselves.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
And so what next? What does the future hold? I
really want to get a haircut. That's probably the move.
It's gone off, laughy.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
The reason I was excited about interviewing you is I
am fascinated by comedians because I have no idea why
you would do it.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, I get it. It must be terrifying. It is.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I would rather eat cold, sick stand up in front
of an audience who paid money for me to make
them laugh.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, nis sure, I know.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
It's quite psycholic to do, I think, And it is hard,
Like you're kind of putting yourself out there to be like,
you know, you're naked.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, so like you're so naked and then and it's.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Like you want people to laugh at the naked you
years totally you're giving people such a gift like laughter.
Is there anything we need more right now than laughter?
And like you're putting yourself out there to make people happy. Oh,
that's very kind of you to say. Oh it's true.
I think it's wonderful and that's a gift.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
But like the highs, like when it goes well, when
you are like in total command of the room and
everyone's going with here on everything.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I mean, that's the high that you're tasting.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Like once you get there, it's like I want to
keep getting that all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You were diagnosed three years ago, Yes, I mean, new
kid on the block. Are you Afreshie. How has having
the diagnosis the official thing changed your life?
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Hmmm, well, I think the main thing would be I'm
a lot kinder to myself than I used to be
before I knew.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was like, what's wrong with you? You freak? Like
why can't you just talk to people?
Speaker 4 (08:03):
It's so easy for everyone else, and you come out
with some absolute clangers, mate, and it seems effortless for them.
And I used to beerate myself, like not wanting to
go to parties and be.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Like, what's wrong with you? Dinger?
Speaker 4 (08:15):
And then I found out that, yeah, I was on
this spectrum, and then suddenly I think it's I think
for me, my diagnosis is like being autistic is like
it's not a good thing necessarily, it's not a bad
thing necessarily.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's neutral.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So I think just recognizing that im I'm coming at
things from a different way.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
A process kind of trusting yourself and trusting that you
as your authentic self is okay.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yes, it feels at the moment, I like that authentic
self like peeks out sometimes mostly it's kind of here,
but I'm feeling more and more kind of coming out
of a mold coming out of the hole a little bit.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
The mule's coming out of the whole little bit more
like that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And you know, the more you practice it anything, the
bitter you get. So the more that that mold comes
out of the hole, the more the mob will feel
comfortable coming out of the hole. I think one of
the reasons it's scary for people that have masked their
whole lives. And everyone masks to some degree. I have to,
and you have to do just to get by in
the world. But seriously, like head the shield up, is
(09:19):
that actually revealing who you are? And the terror of
people not liking who you authentically are is so bad.
Like if they don't like the masked you, that's somehow easier,
does it?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I'm trying to not mask as much. I'm trying to
like keep my facial expression. I used to add like
a lot of facial expressions, and now I.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Was like, well I have to, so you're adding the
facial expressions was for other people, I think.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So I think I was like, this is how this
is how a prison is.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
But yeah, so I feel I've noticed that I've been
doing that less. I've noticed that I'm a bit more
like neutral in the face.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I intervied a girl who used to practice her facial
expressions in the mirror before school.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Did you ever do anything like that?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Yeah, and practice like oh, people are going to probably
ask you how you are so oh. Practice was like
a really normal response to there. There's like the perfect
level of vulnerability because you can't just so good.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
You've got to say, well, you know, this build is
also going on.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
And then if I follow up question, yeah, anticipate the
follow up question.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I still do this actually, yeah. It just makes me
really sad. What about stuff like eye contact? Are you okay?
I'm not. Yeah. I struggle with it a little bit here.
Now I can't okay, I'm not that good. I just
feel like I'm doing it wrong all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It's definitely something I have to think about consciously of
what is a normal amount. I'm kind of thinking about
it quite a lot when I'm doing it, like it
would come naturally to someone else. But I have to think,
now it's a normal time to look up, and now
I've given myself a few seconds so you can look
away for.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
A little bit. And I don't know I'm having her thoughts.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But now I've got to come back to you, so
I'm kind of manually doing eye contact.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
The Dictionary definition of masking is the act of concealing
the existence of something by obstructing the view of it.
When we're talking about human behavior, there's something you're concealing
is how you really feel, and masking is something we
all do in certain situations we need to to fit in.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I mean, who doesn't want to feel like they're accepted
and they're liked and that you know, you're a popular person.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
That's Sarah Watson, a clinical psychologist who works with many
young autistic people.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
We hold these things in high esteem in our society,
so they're all really big motivators tu much.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
For most of us, masking is an automatic response. We
tweak our natural behavior to fit the situation. We might
be a little bit more polite than usual, or we
might pretend to be interested when we are really really not.
But for many autistic people, masking is something that takes
thought and effort and a lot of practice.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
It needs to be a conscious, deliberate process.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And that's where the exhaustion comes in when you're having
to do it for a full day.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Absolutely, and also because it means you've got to think
about what your face is doing, what your eyes are doing,
what your posture is doing, what your tone is doing,
how you're communicating, like the content of your speech, and
on and on it goes. Masking can be absolutely exhausting,
(12:54):
and it can get to the point where you can
burn out because it is just the exhaustion level from
having to do it day in, day out, day in
day out, week, month, year after year. But there's also
those that the mask that they take on is very
(13:15):
dissimilar to who they actually are. So when there is
a significant we call it incongruence in the biz, where
there's like that difference between who I am being on
the outside versus who I am on the inside, then
you can get a sense of I'm not good enough
either way. And when you have that, then your exterior
(13:39):
is kind of like, oh, I'm this, but nobody really
fully accepts that. But then when you're unmasked and I
am this and you also feel like nobody really accepts that,
then you're in this really horrible double bind where you
don't necessarily know who you are.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And if you've lived your whole life masking, it's quite
hard to take that mask off, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (14:06):
One hundred and then when and where and how and
for whom? And then also it can lead to some
really complicated feelings about yourself and your own identity, like
questions like who am I? Is this really me? Why
do I have to do this right to be able
to almost pass as neurotypical rather than just being able
(14:30):
to be me?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Do you think that society has set things up? There's
this band quite narrow band of normal and you know,
we're here all the time. Oh, be yourself and difference
is great, but it doesn't necessarily play out like that. Yeah,
we love difference, but it kind of feels like there's
(14:53):
a societal norm that no one really is living up to,
especially neurodivergent people men and neurodivegent people.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's hard to think that so many people spend their
lives desperately trying to fit in, but psychologist Sarah Watson
says it's changing. We're having more open, honest, public conversations
and that has a profound effect. Especially if you've always
thought you with a problem.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Then it's kind of like a oh my gosh, this
is a thing. You know, it's a thing that other
people experience, like I'm not alone. There's so much validation,
which we call normalizing, which is ironic because you realize
that you're you're not alone with it, and it's a
way of kind of coping perhaps with that disconnect between
(15:48):
what is expected and who.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I am that we all do.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
But when you're neurodivergent, the demands are so much more
because it has to be so intentional, right, you don't
have that automatic part that's just doing it for you
when somebody is neurotypical, that it's actually just all happens automatically, right,
(16:13):
that adjustment. Yes, when you say that to some people
who are autosticor neurodivigent, it blows their mind because they've
always had to work at it and assume that everybody
has to work at.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It, right, So they're walking around going everyone else is
really good at playing this game, and I'm failing.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
It's just me. It's defective.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
I'm not good enough. I hope that our sense of
what is normal is now broadening, right, But it can
only do that with things like this podcast, because what
that's doing is shining a light on we can be
different and it not be less right and what is
normal at the end of the day. Unfortunately, we do
(17:03):
have a social concept around what it is, and we
have we even have statistically, we have population norms, for example,
which tells us what's typical and what's not typical. So
there's a lot that leans into that concept of what
is the average, what is the norm? Which potentially means
(17:26):
that we're not really being inclusive, are we?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:31):
No, it's rather more exclusive. Like if you're not part
of that norm, then where does that leave you?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, you're rejected from the tribe, aren't you. Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah.
So in many.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Cases and a lot of cases, it's much better and
safer to work out what you need to do to
stay in the tribe, so to speak, at the expense
of who you really are. Yeh see, that just breaks
my heart for men that effort to stay in the
(18:08):
tribe starts at school. There's a slow or sometimes quick
realization that who you truly are is.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Not going to cut it. How was school for you?
Not the best?
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I think primary school was like okay, because I went
to my local primary school with like kids from my neighborhood,
and my school went from like year one to year eight,
so that you're around people your whole life.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
So I think people just.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Accepted eccentricities, like I was pretty eccential where people are
on let's just Abbie, you know, Abby gets up and
we'll do the confrontation for me Liz for the class
a cappella and there's her baby, and I was like,
there's me.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
That's a way.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
And then I went to high school and I went
to a different I didn't know anyone at my high school,
so I went from being quite confident to.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Being like, oh no, I.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Didn't realize, oh no, and how could they tell we
were in a uniform? But they could tell it was
a freak from the moment I came in. I remember
having like a mountdown in my first week. I think
I didn't realize that's what it was. But yeah, I
found that really really hard. Hated high school for the
first few years. Yeah it was stinkerzoid. But all it
(19:25):
takes is like really one person to see you, and
I think for me, that was my music teacher, mister Grant.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
My life. Sorry, I'm getting emotional. It's just whenever anyone talks.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
But having a hard time at school, yeah, it just
it breaks my heart have.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
A hard time.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
No no, I just have always had that thing. I've
got two really sensitive spots, people that had a really
hard time at school and didn't feel like they fitted in,
and people that didn't have appearance. Yeah, yeah, you have parents.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I did.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I got a lovely parents, I can yeah. Yeah, they
would see over the no her.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Well, so home was always like very accepting, loving space.
So when I'd come home, it was like you're a great,
great safe place safe. Yeah, but my school experience got bitter.
Like mister Grant because he was my music teacher. We
used to spend time one on one because you'd like
practice your instrument. My instrument was my voice. I actually couldn't.
(20:25):
I was really bad at music. I just love mister Grant,
and so he sort of it was like a bit
more like my guard was down a little bit more
of mister Grant, and he could see that I was
like funny, like I used to be able to really
make mister Grant laugh, and I think he could see
I don't know, just having one person kind of see you.
I remember him saying, oh, you're really funny, and that
(20:47):
he was like quite serious. He was like a choir
master but I could really like crack him, like I
could really make him laugh, and he'd go bright red
and be like, oh and I think I don't know.
I was just having one person who's like, I can
see that you have value. I think he even told
me one time, he was like, listen, high school sucks.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
This sucks so hard.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
But when you get out of here, you're going to
realize that actually you're the cool one. But yeah, I
had a big moment which was like I played the
lion in my high school production of the Wizard of Us.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Oh my god, secured the role.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, would being really confused because like the quirky, weird
character is me.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I don't understand, but I guess I'll do it.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, that was huge, Like I got a huge boost
of confidence from there. Found the drama freaks and there
was like now we're cooking. And then by the end
I was a lot more confident at school. So the
first probably three years were hard and then last two
were like, you think it would be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Great if when a kids, any kids started school, like
when you start primary school or high school. That part
of the whole thing was let's find your thing. Yeah,
bribe the teacher that you can meet with that thing
that you love and it's make that the center, and
then all the mess and all the other stuff can
(22:06):
come around it. But then you've got that safe little
thing totally. Yeah, this isn't be that hard.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Well, I feel like you're just having one person and
being like listen, kid, I see what you're doing. You're
kind of a bit weird, bit eccentric, a little bit
show biz in a way that you don't understand yet.
Maybe not that great at acting or singing, but there's
a certain something we haven't quite.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Tevident to what is yet.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
That's the can I just I've got the vision of
you as the lion. Yeah, did you have the full
like could you see your face or was.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
It a fairly It was like tight in the face,
like full mane and face pain and like the tale.
I was like, I put on this suit and I
was like, you cannot touch me. I am electric, Like
I remember look at myself in the mirror being like yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes yes, And that is the beauty.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
I think about the stage. No one can touch you
up there, No no one could touch me.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
I didn't need to have a conversation with anyone the
conversation has already written down their lines. No worries and
no problem about that. Yeah, And I think just having
there there was huge.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You just need some wins, don't you. You just need
a few wins in this life to keep you going.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Besides nailing the role of the lion and the school production,
there was something else IBB liked about school, the structure.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Like that there was one hour of that's one of others,
and you knew the schedule like a well in advance.
So I think I did enjoy that regimented nature of things.
I've always kind of built routines into my life wherever
I go.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Really, so how about with your family like holidays or
when things were out, or with your family not as spontaneous.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Occasionally they would do that and they'd be like like,
even though technically I could, and there's no reason that
I can't, I just can't. Yeah, And so I think
I talked to them when I got the diagnosis. I
was like, I think this is something, But I love
to do stuff if it's planned. If you if my
mom's like, oh, you want to go to the shops
and get a coffee or something, I'll be like, but
(24:09):
I hadn't planned that today. But if she's like doing
a go tomorrow, I'll be like, yes, like affected it in.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I think that is so helpful, just because the way
anyone else would look at it's like, well, what do
you mean why can't you do it today?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
But it's not about that, is it? And it's about
like is it kind of a security knowing?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah? Like so that because you don't know what the
surprises are going to be.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah, and like my friends, you know, you get invites,
I'd be like, oh, I'm not doing anything doing to
come over and like watch a movie and.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I know that I can, like I'm free, but I
just had a plan for it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So and I think we can all identify with that
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think that's the secret to helping people understand is
that you go, we've all got a little bit of it.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, for you, it's just more extreme.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I get very discombobulated by changes. So that's my partner
is actually really good at that about not changing plans
or if plans are going to change, then he will
really let me know as soon as possible. And yeah,
I get really upset by plan changes and stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Can you and I know this is hard.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I just want people to understand the experience because I
think sometimes it can come across as got with you,
I'm sure, but for many like they just want their
own way, like they're not flexible, and so I just
wonder if you can tell me what it is as
best you can about the change that's hard.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Well, basically, it feels like I plan out my whole
day and my whole week, and I have the concept
of my week in my mind. Like today, I knew
that I was going to wake up and I was
going to read for twenty minutes, and then I was
going to answer some of the emails that I have
had building up, and I will do that, and then
I'll have a shower, and then I have my breakfast
(26:00):
and I have executis and breakfast every day and I
have it then and then I will go and then
after this, I'm going to do some errands and then
I'm going to come home and I have free time
and then I go to a movie tonight and that's
my day.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
So and that's locked in in my mind.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
So it feels like if a plan changes, like if
someone says, oh, my friends are like, oh, actually, we're
not going to go to the movies tonright. It feels
like a whole has just been punched in this wall
that I've just built up. It's very discombobulating. It's like,
but I planned my whole day. I knew exactly when
(26:37):
I was going to have tea off, planned exactly what
I'm going to have for tea.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Everything comes tumbling down. Yeah, pull one lockout. It feels
like everything is just, yeah, come tumbling.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
That is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
What if because my daughter reads for twenty minutes in
the morning, when you see that I went, and you
cannot like that's yeah, she has to.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I have to.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, what happens if someone sees you? When you're an adult,
it's easier, you have more autonomy. But for some reason
that was taken away. I know you'd manage, but what
is it the same discompopulation. Yes, it couldn't go. I'll
just do that twenty minutes later.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Oh no way.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
I think, well I can handle it if I know
in advance that, like, oh, I'm half early morning tomorrow,
so I'm not going to get my twenty minutes. And
but like it's okay because I know what I'm doing.
But like My partner, for example, is a real chetdy
Kathy and I love that about him, but he loves
to chat. He will be like, what's going off for me?
And I was like, I love this person, which I
(27:40):
really really.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Love about him.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
But sometimes, you know, if he's chatting me when I'm
doing my twenty minutes, that's like.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
But then he because I'm a chedy Kathy, yeah over
here love cheddy Kathy.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, but my husband's probably more like you.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And sometimes I'm like, I know that he has think
he's wanting to do, but I need to get it.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I can't stop it coming.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, they don't know, and I'm trying to and I'm like,
even go, sorry, story, sorry, I just have to say it.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, And I've got one more thing and he's like,
oh my god. Yeah, And so he'll pop his head
around the corner bell.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
I'm watching a really good YouTube video at the moment,
it's above this, and.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I'd be that's great.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Do you have to because my daughter, when she was younger,
if she was interrupted and that twenty it's changed it.
But sometimes it's like ten pages or something, she'd have
to start from the beginning.
Speaker 6 (28:28):
Uh yeah, kind of yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
If your needs are quite different to the supposed norm,
and you've always felt somehow wrong. You're self worth is
likely to have taken a hit. I ask Abby what
she struggles with the most.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I think so that's probably like my big worm.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
And is that like not really trusting that people like
me and thinking, oh, my friends, they're just very kind
people that are taking the time.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
To talk to me.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
And and so that's probably like the big bone that
I need to work on, which I am working on.
I go to therapy and stuff. But yeah, I do.
I think happiness is not something that comes necessarily easily
to me. So I need to work hard, I think too,
to be pretty good.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But that's another I should. Oh my god, I sound
like a therapist. Abby, that's another should. You're saying you
should work harder diagnosed. I was leaning into an impromptu
therapy session, but then Abby hit me, it's something I
wasn't expecting. There's this person that you've just met looking
at you, yeah, and asking you about yourself, And then
(29:49):
did you.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Know that actually we haven't just met. We were in
a movie together song we were I knew I knew you.
Oh my god. I had one line in a movie
was you. It was like the main character in a movie. Yeah,
and the Real Treatment.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I was not the main character in The Royal Treatment,
but Irena Castle and I did get to scream a
lot in a French accent. So you're thinking, no hair
and belittle my long suffering stuff, but your lack of
skill living not just stuff included Abbie.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
The maid night there was me, baby God, I know,
was I nice thing? You were so nice? We did
it all day. You come here today and you're like,
she's totally forgot. I had no. It was just a
surreal experience, the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
It was like this Netflix movie being made in Dneda,
and I was living in at the time. So they
put a call out for like local actors and I
came in and they were like can you do an accent?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
And I was like kind of and they were like,
you're in.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And then they gave me this character and then they
changed the characters needed to be my own name, because
I thought maybe they thought I.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Was my god Lola and you are Abigail. They work
in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
I know you, but I the blind You're like I
did thanks monologue, I remember.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
And I was was that nasty? I was quite nasty.
Yeah it was. Yeah, you help him. Yes, I'm quite sorry. Complete.
You can see everything. So and it's course it's you. Yeah,
it's me. Welcome back, Welcome to my paet true me.
(31:26):
I know you're autistic.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
I know.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I didn't know that. I wouldn't have gissed. You did
a really good job of fighting it. It's a really normal,
normal question. So normal, Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Do you feel confident being out and proud about being autistic?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I like people to know because I feel like it
takes the pressure off me a little bit. Like I
feel like if people know that I'm on the spectrum,
it's like, oh, what a relief. Like I feel like
I can really relax and just be myself and not
have to.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Tend to be normal. Yeah, I don't have.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
To process everything I do through what a normal person
say this.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
It takes the pressure off Abby, and it takes the
pressure off a whole lot of other people as well,
who are seeing and hearing someone who thinks like them.
Ebby has a platform and she's using it. Remember that
clip from the top of this episode.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Hi, everyone, I thought i'd let you know right up
the top that I'm on the autism spectrum and viral.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
To brag, the thing is sitting at like two point
five million views. It's just a one minute clop of
me doing a stand.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Up, but popularity jewels the trolls hard for anyone, but
for Abby it was devastating.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
I never experienced like that level of attention or negative
comments before, and to be honest, really raddled me, like
I got really made me sad, and it made me
not want to do a comedy anymore. But I've decided
to talk about that on stage. I'm going to turn
this experience of the video going royal into a joke.
(33:08):
And then suddenly I'm in control of it now, like
those people commenting on me, I'm in control of the story. Now,
they're only feeding the flame of me. I own the story.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Now she does own the story, and she has advice
for anyone who doesn't yet feel like they own.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
This, Like comedy has been so important to me, and
the thing that I found was like I found the
greatest success when I started to lean into more being
myself on stage. And so that would be the biggest
lesson of my whole life. That people like they like
that they like when you are yourself and you're not
(33:48):
trying to be anything else, all that stuff that I
hated about my being like slightly off celter, being into
things super intensely. I used to hate that about myself,
But as I've grown older, that thing has become my
biggest strength.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I feel so proud of that.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Like if I was to talk to my teenage self,
I would say, you are a stand up comedian and
all this you know, I know you feel like a
freaking you hate all this stuff about yourself. People are
gonna love it. You're gonna get out there and share
stories from real life and share the way that you
feel about things, and that is your success, which.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I feel was so proud. I would be so proud
to tell her that. Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And can I add to that? Can you send here
another message all the stuff you're going through, this is material.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
This is great material. Yeah. And the people that love you,
they're going to really love.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You next time on no such thing as normal.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Olympian Eric Murray and his son.
Speaker 7 (34:47):
Zech they don't quite know a lot of it as
they just don't know the intimate details around like what
having a child with autism. My ADHD and neurudiverse, right,
they don't know the stresses, you know, so people will
be looking at them going control your kid?
Speaker 5 (34:59):
Can your kid?
Speaker 7 (35:01):
Rather than oh shit, you know, like that's the problem
is the first everyone's first reaction is you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
No Such Thing as Normal is produced and presented by
me Sonia Gray. The editor is Jamie Lee Smith. Arwen
O'Connor and Mitchell Hawks are executive producers, and Bridget Mills
helped with research. The series is brought to you by
the New Zealand Herald and Team Uniform and it's made
with the support of New Zealand on Air. If you
(35:28):
like this podcast, please rate and review it it helps
people find it. New episodes of No Such Thing as
Normal are available wherever you get your podcasts.
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