November 21, 2024 • 25 mins
This week, Thomas is joined by Newstalk ZB political editor Jason Walls to recap the week in politics, which was dominated by the thousand-strong hīkoi to Parliament over the Treaty Principles Bill.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
And welcome to on the Tiles, the New Zealand Hero's
politics podcast wrapping the week. The Fortnight with Me is
News Talks BS Politically is to end at the Chair
of the Press Gallery. Very busy man at the moment, Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Walls, the chair of the Gallery. Stuff is taking up
more of my time than reporting these days.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Actually, you're just about to appear before a parliamentary selickt committee.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I am, it's before I am.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
They're dragging me in front of them. But no, no,
we we voluntarily chose to appear in front of them
for the parliament bill. We think that you should be
able to ohia parliamentary services because you know, it's a
bit of a bit of a blind spot in the
current legislation. So it's going to be a bit weird
actually sitting there at the mercy of.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The n MPs.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Do you stand by all your statements?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Oh, listen to the context in which they were given.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I do. I'm glad to hear it. Look, let's let's start.
You've just been overseas. You've been to Peru, to Lima Apex.
What was it like? What's the digest was the apex?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Apex does a lot like NATO, which is a lot
like a lot like the Asian Summit, which is a
lot like every other conference you see a lot of
conference conference center walls and windows is pretty much the
most of it. But you know, these security is tied
at these things, as it would be you got Shuji
Ping there, You've got Joe Biden there, and you've got
Christopher Lux and the big three.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Some would say no, you wouldn't be at one.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's kind of weird though, because you just see them
walking around like never by themselves. They have an entourage.
But the first APEX that I ever went to, if
I remember correctly, was in Vietnam. We were going up
the stairs as Justin Trudeau was going down them, and
so we just looked up and there he was, just
looking around smiling. So you know, it was fine. I
think that, and I've been saying it this week that
(01:47):
we sometimes get a little bit too fixated on what
the ninth floor called announceables, you know, just something that
they can announce to show that they're doing something, because
we as media also just love to report and announceable.
But there wasn't really one big set piece. Look what
we've done here from APEX, which I don't think is
a particularly bad thing. I think New Zealand is a
small We're tiny compared to a lot of the other countries,
(02:09):
and we don't really have the opportunity to get round
the big around the table with some of these bigger
players unless we're at a place like APEC And I
think that Chris Luxon, you know, he came, he saw,
he conquered. He was only there for a day and
a half, and he chatted with Shijing Ping, he talked
with the heads of government for Singapore, for Peru of course,
and a number of others, really stating the New Zealand
(02:31):
case for trade. So no, he didn't come out with
a free trade agreement with the United States, for example,
but that was never really the goal.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Joe Biden should just you know, try and get one
over the line.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
With his last act in office, a free trade agreement
with the news.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I suppose to go to Congress, that's mine. How what
was the vibe like it with she?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
She was it was it was good like we go
in the room. You you know, it's you've been to
these things. It's a lot of hurry up to wait.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I don't know, I've never done.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
A they're very similar.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You just you get told by some official come here
at this exact time else you won't be let in,
and you get to this place and military precision, and
then you wait around for a long time until you're
told by someone okay go and then about fifteen different
people with cameras run in front of you and you've
got to throw your elbows out.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
But the opening.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Remarks were very warm, they always are between she and
Chris Luxon talking about how they want they've there's been
a lot of firsts within New Zealand and China.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
First they do, they do, or it's always the first.
I forget where it's four.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Or five, maybe five five firsts?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, the first first, first FDA, first country to something
right regarding the worth the World Trade Organization is two
of them. And then there's some sort of first in
terms of posted dolomatic recognition. But I forget. There are
a lot of firsts. Yes, and I'm sure listener will help.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And that was sort of the point that j Ping
was making and was saying, we want more of those,
and then christ for Luxin opened up, I've been this
is my third time I've been in a bilot with
the New Zealand Prime Minister and Shijingping. Every single time
Shijingping talks for a lot longer than the New Zealand
Prime Minister, whether it's ar Dern, Hipkins or Luxen, they
they're quite short.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Actually, I would.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Note the thing.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I mean, it's always niceties at the beginning. But it
was a couple of days later when we're asking or
the next day, sorry, we're asking Luxe and about what
are some of the things that the Chinese side were
not happy with that he proactively raised orcus, which was
quite interesting, saying that, yeah, they weren't really that pleased
with the fact that we're exploring it. And I think
for him to proactively raise it, I mean, you know,
(04:38):
you don't say what did they not like? Usually they
say something, Oh, there was a number of things discussed,
but he brought up August, which was I thought was
quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that it's interesting that that
August frustrates the Chinese enough that they, you know, put
them on being a Chinda like that, and you wonder
whether that als is the cost benefit analysis of New
Zealand going into it.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, that's what the Labor Party have been arguing this
whole time. Is it worth threat China moving.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I'm just trying to find on my phone the for
first I wrote something about the major.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You're so good at podcasting is still organized?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
This is this is raw political podcasting right here.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This is There's a story I did a while ago
on then anyway coy this week big, big, big week
in parliament, biggest. I mean, I was reading Audrey Young's
politics email today. Subscribe if you do not already, but
I think she's She said that it had been the
biggest that she had seen.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
She's the biggest in living memory.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, you know so, so she's vastly more experienced
than us, So I'd say, I'd say that's big big.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I would say, though, Audrey, and I don't feel bad
about bad mouthing her, because she bad mouthed me in
one of her columns a couple of weeks ago. But
she actually wasn't out for sure, and see a.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Bit was she wasn't. No, she was over, she was
somewhere else, but she was in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, on doing work, I should add, but it was massive.
The he coy this was, I mean, I knew it
was going to be big. I had a conversation with
Nick Mills on Wellington Mornings and he was saying, what
do you reckon ten thousand and thirty thousand? And I
said to him, I would be surprised. I've got to
thirty thousand. I think ten thousand sounds quite big. But
then when we got out there, I mean, what was
(06:15):
that forty.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Fifty thousand officials forty two and then but people are
thinking up to fifty Yeah, so we need we need
to codify the rules around crowd counting. I see someone
some data journalists was data scientists as an investigating drone
based solutions for crowd counting. Well, we need that. Trump
administration is very keen on.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
It up until recently. The way that we've done crowd
sizes in New Zealand is just a couple of journalists
kind of get together about how many do you reckon
and then we're like five thousand, like yeah, it looks
about right, and then we splashed that across everywhere else.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So Parliamentary Security, here's a rough they've got. They've got
a benchmark for what it takes to fill the lawn,
which I think is five thousand, right, so if you
managed to fill up shoulder to shoulder the the four court,
then you've got five. But obviously this this was went
vastly beyond that us like sort of down most of
(07:07):
Lampton Key And yeah, I wish I'd actually been able
to leave the precinct to get down limps to see
how far down it went. Yeah, you couldn't sort of
see into it. Yeah, yeahsive impressive size. The government obviously
quite unmoved by it, you know, David Seymour seems fairly nonplussed.
M I mean, Labor and the Greens into Party Maray
(07:33):
seemed to be fighting over you know, who gets to
sort of claim it. Obviously it's more affiliated with to
Party Mary than the other two parties, but they're both
are all kind of fighting.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, it's an interesting one to watch, I mean, outside
the bill itself, Like the bill the HIKOI was never
going to move anything. It was never going to change anything.
It's i mean, NAT's going to vote it down. David
Seymour is getting more press out of this, no matter
how much he gets upset about what he says is
the biased coverage of it. He's getting a lot of
coverage about on his side of it as well. So
(08:02):
the way that you look at Tea Party Marty, especially
in labor, I mean, if you were going into this
completely blind and you were looking at the Labor Party socials,
you would think that they were the ones that organized it.
Same with the Greens. But obviously it's been it's been
Tea Party Marty driven from the beginning. I mean, the
Hikoy itself was is very very inextrica extricably linked to
(08:22):
Tea Party Marty as a political movement.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
So it's really good advertising for them.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Actually quite interesting, interested as a sort of counterpoint to
what you were saying, Quite interested to see the amount
of the prominent appearances of Party Mary MPs mainly deb
Nardi with Pecker and Rawerti Whiteity on Labor social media
because usually you know, when you I mean obviously that
(08:51):
most issues the left parties dying up on left and
the right, not on the right. And then and and
and they're trying and exclude each other from their social media.
You know, it's a climate change. The Labor will make
sure that the Greens are kind of like not probably
placed in the social media, and likewise the Greens and
Labor but I've been interested that later that after the
three parties signed that joint memory or the joint campaign
(09:14):
I guess against the Tree Principal's bill two weeks ago.
I think that actually Labor has been quite prominently featuring
you know, you can see Debian and Rabadi on a
few you know, Labor social media parts, which is kind
of unusual. And I'm not sure about I'm not sure whether.
I mean, certainly it's a good idea. It certainly cuts
against the conventional wisdom, which is that you try to
(09:37):
pretend that your competition parties don't right.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, but we'll see, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I wonder as well. I mean, that's interesting. It'll be
very interesting to see the next round of polls. I
guessing Textpans Union will be the next one, Yeah, in
early decend. And then I imagine one news for one news.
Kant has probably got one more.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I would put one out on the field after this.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I meant they should do four or five or six
a year.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, I would say this would be a great one.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, And I like, you know you. In the most
recent Taxpayers Union poll, I think treaty issues were up
to sixteen percent of people put them in the top
three issues. Yeah, and the three D Principal's Bill has
I think forty five forty six percent support, so you know,
it's quite the bill is itself is quite popular?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because once people
get a loan in a voting booth or alone with
a polster, they actually start expressing their true thoughts and
they're like, well, hang on a second, I kind of
do like the idea of this bill.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yes, I mean it's sort of this is where I
think the opposition. I think it always happens. I think
with large protest movements is that whichever side of the
aisle the movement backs, they tend to get caught up
in it and believe the kind of phr And certainly
there hasn't been any polling that were seen that suggests
(11:01):
that there's a majority or actually anything approaching a majority
of people who don't support the bill. And you know,
like the line and the paper yesterday that the people
have spoken and then labors suit of social media, the
Seymour's gonna you know, it's the thousands of New Zealanders
that are wrong. You know, it's not like you can't
(11:24):
when you're when the purpose of the stated purpose of
the hikoy is to stop a referendum. You can't really say, oh,
the people have spoken, because that's actually what you're trying
to stop.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Quite ironic, isn't it. Action Now that you've said it,
put it.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like that, you're you're not the people aren't speaking. Your
your objective is to not allow them to speak, because
you think it's you know, audios, which is completely legitimate.
There are some things on which you know it is
not appropriate to have referendum, and that is the argument
that they're making. The argument they're not making, well, well,
the argument they are saying they are making, and yet
(11:57):
that isn't actually the argument is that the people are speaking, right,
Just don't really I understand how they are able to
hold those two things together.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm just thinking now, I mean, you might be, you
might know, but have you heard Tipati Marti's actual opposition
to why it is that they don't think the treaties
principles should be or the bill itself. I can't remember
the last time I heard them actually articulated. I mean,
I'm sure, I'm definitely sure that they've got a view,
but I.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Mean, the main argument is not so much the referend them.
It's just that the question I disposed is that is
the principles they are attached from? What the what the
actual principles are? Yea? And if it established to be
and like that's I mean and there I mean, I mean,
one would imagine that were were it possible, were someone
(12:46):
to drive the Treaty Principles bill that included the principles
that you know currently exist, even though that seem to
be dispersed in many places and are much more complicated
than I suppose you'd ever put into a single piece
of legislation. But were that actually possible, would be interesting
to see what the Tarti Marty would supported out. I
don't think they would. But the main opposition is actually
that the proposition is wrong and therefore it shouldn't go
(13:07):
to a vote, which again is a is a totally
tenable argument that it is not the argument that they're making,
which is that the people have spoken and they don't
want it. Yeah, yeah, which the people are not. You
are not allowing the people, that's the point. But it's
you know, it's it's an interesting one, and it's an
interesting one for labor On. One imagines they might be
(13:28):
might be getting a wee bit squeezed, but I suppose
it'll all be over by what six months time?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I suppose so.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But then, I mean, we've got the select Fit Committee
for six months. But they've also tea party Marty have
put themselves on the global map with this, because you know,
we can talk about how it was the New York Times, BBC,
everybody did this bill. And remember they're not trying to
talk about this protest. Rather, they're not trying to get
to five percent. They're just trying to win the Marty seats.
And I would say they've got a very good shot
(13:54):
at that. And they're not up against Act, they're not
against national, they're up against labor for those Martis. So
I would say you're right the squeeze as well, and truly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
On and interesting to see, you know. I mean. The
other thing with the equos is obviously that the stated
admission of the hkoy Is is around three D Principal's
bill and to kill it, kill the bill, great tagline,
but you know you don't. I don't think you mobilize
that many people to kill a bill that isn't actually alive.
(14:23):
And and you know you to talk to protests and
everyone everyone knows that it's not going anywhere, like it
really isn't It really isn't going anywhere. So I think
I actually think a large part of the mobilization was
a broader kind of but like what Shane Jones was saying,
a kind of broader mobilization against what is seen to
be an assault on Mary and that is, you know,
(14:45):
obviously not going anywhere. And it's interesting that again Rowdy
White to see a lot of his messaging on his
socials on the forecourt as well as to get on
the Maori roll and that's very you know, that's that's
massive as well.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
They put a social media post up just before and
I was looking at it as I came in because
I thought that this is exactly what I thought was
going to happen. There there was Tipati Marty. I've got
to here, one thousand new enrollments in the Mati electric
role since the start of the Hikui. Now a thousand
doesn't sound like tons, but when you've got the size
of the Mary electric seats a lot smaller than a
lot of the other ones, a thousand is quite significant.
(15:19):
And where do you think that those thousand are going
to be volding you know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, it's very I mean that's a that's a mess
of change, you know. So, I mean they're playing they're
playing a very very very good, long long game. Y.
It's really it's a it's a great I mean, it's
sort of funny for both for both acting to party
Mari who I imagine the other parties that will probably
benefit from this the most is that they're both kind
of saying that this is a waste of time, and
(15:43):
it sort of there is a waste of time because
the bill isn't going anywhere, but both of them have
almost want to waste yeh time as much as possible
because they're doing very well out. I mean, can I
as you know you've been in Parliament a while, we
have this very interesting situation with this ers being you know,
(16:04):
this Standing Orders Committee would be reviewing the Standing Orders
as it does every three years. That they'd be standing
that up shortly, I imagine, but they're going to be
called in even earlier to investigate this question of whether
the standing orders can can contain the kind of disruption
that we saw on Thursday last Thursday with Hannah RAFTI
(16:25):
might be Clark's hakka, what do you think.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I think it's high time for the standing orders. I mean,
as you say, they get reviewed quite regularly, but like
this is a good opportunity to be able to do them.
And I think it's it's twofold. And I'll start with
the two party Marti hakker one first, which is at
this stage there is absolutely no disincentive for them, for
any political party to do something like that. I mean,
look at the fact they had this. I heard this
(16:49):
morning and it sounded massive and it's probably right seven
hundred million plus people that have viewed that around the world,
and that's a conservative estimate, given it's quite hard to
track these sorts of things. And if that is tipati Marti,
basically at their best, and I use best in terms
of what they want the world to see. You know,
them at their best is not sitting there standing up
(17:11):
and saying nay and sitting down. It is doing a
powerful harker that has been literally seen across the world
hundreds of millions of times. And if the punishment for
doing something so grossly disorderly, which is technically what it
is according to the speaker, is you're not allowed to
come to parliament for a day and you get your
pay doct. I mean there's being slapped with a wet
(17:32):
bus ticket, and then there is just sort of having
somebody wave their finger at you from three miles away
and giving you a tisk test that you'll never hear.
I mean, the risk versus a reward is way off
at this stage. But the question that we have is
how do you bring that into balance. I would say
that saying now your banned from parliament for ninety days
is anti democratic because that is essentially taking away what
(17:54):
your constituents considered to.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Be their right to democracy.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So the other thing, and we were having a good
conversation about this before, is the financial element of it.
And I think something that could work is if you
go directly after the leader's fund, which is the money
that each political party gets from the tax player payer
to just help them with their day to day operations
as a political party. And if you come after that,
then I think that that's probably quite a strong incentive
(18:19):
because that is going to stop you campaigning, it's going
to stop you doing a lot of things, and it's
probably quite a harsh punishment very quickly. The other thing
that the standing Orders Committee needs to do is crack
down on superfluous supplementary questions. Specifically, Winston Peters is making
a mockery of the House every single question time it's
Ricardo Menandez March or it's Chris Hipkins, or it's Kieran
(18:44):
McNulty are standing up saying you cannot use the way
supplementary is the way that Winston does and Jerry Brownley
lets him get away with it every single time.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
The Winston roll is the informal parliamentary Yeah, working for this,
which is that some of the standing orders are envorced
more likely against senior members.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's ludicrous.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So if you're gonna if you're going to take a
crack at Tibati Marti, you need to take a crack
at Winston as well, because he's making a mockery of
the House at the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
What today is? Today Today's you know, if you're listening
to this, I recommend you go back and watch the
Parliament TV on demand today Greeni and p land Farm
was was quizzing Shane Jones about the fun Marine Reserve
and she she mentioned a New World, a Ponsonby New
World and it's got up and challenged her, saying that
(19:35):
there was no new and and and it was the
houses of Sailand and and and and you know, because
I suppose I suppose if there weren't any New World
and potsib then paul Land Farm might have had to
sort of you know, the next question time get up,
I seek to make a correction. No, I suppose it's
(19:55):
a question, but you have to create. Yeah, you have
to corect it. Barbar Emans had to do it the
other day as well. But but there is there is
a there is a New World and Freeman's Bay. I
think which which might qualify?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So she was Interestingly, I'll just point out I've just
had an email come through from the Speaker's office because
remember the the complaint that TI Party Marti sent to
the Speaker's office alleging that he had blocked the Wi Fi. Well,
the speakers office say, we didn't receive a form more
complaint about this. Yah, so I never they never actually.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Complained, like I mean, they might have complained to the media.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I mean, I sort of. I think it's an interesting one.
I think the problem for T Party Marti is that
the hacker was probably what. It hasn't been a one off.
There's the hacker that wid about the nick ties I
think having to wear the truice code last term, you know,
and there have been other kind of smaller or leasser
(20:55):
kind of disturbances and yeah, I'm you know, if you're
if you do it once on a very big issue
like this, then I think you sort of get a
wee bit of leeway because it is a significant issue.
There's no two ways about it. So you're allowed to
you have more more leeway to do something that's disorderly
(21:17):
and not absolutely have the book thrown at you, because
it is just you kind of need a way of
protesting something in proportion to how significant an issue it
is for you. A problem with Party Malori is that
they that proportionality is not really their thing, and they
have done this a fair bit and and do seem
(21:39):
to enjoy the social media component of.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
It, yeah, testing the speaker in the house, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And and they they they do as a party, tend
to spend more time playing to social media then then
then using the house for debate or opposition. You know.
I mean, the government was not noting the other day
that they barely attended any budget debates. Very critical of
(22:06):
the budget, but but but didn't really put up any
fight or debate the budget at all. So you know,
when you when you're sort of making a mockery of
the House like that, you're you're going to get called
out and possibly you know, have some al changes directed
at you. And you know, it's certainly like the government
seems the I mean, you do hear the odd grumble
from Labor very quietly about Party Maurray, very very quietly,
(22:29):
and certainly the government side of things is pretty hacked
off it. Oh yeah, the conduct because it is quite
disruptive and it's it does make a mockery of the
democratic You know, the whole country has elected the Parliament
to operate on behalf of itself. And if a small minority,
you know, which didn't even pass the five percent threshold,
has never passed the five percent threshold, if a small
(22:50):
minority is sort of as disruptive the functioning of the House,
and that's that doesn't reflect well on there their attitude
towards other people's right to have a functioning. Yeah, Jason,
I know you have to go, you have to do
your submission.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I do I do have a few more minutes if
you wanted to double something else.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Do you have any last thoughts? I have known my topics.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, we've already all we've we yap you and I
don't we wants.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yes, that's what needs to be yes final thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
No, I mean I just think that, you know, the
thing marrying those two topics up actually was interesting Apec,
and the Hakker is that when I was over there,
it was quite the buzz. We were sitting there watching
Chris lux and at some ridiculous CEO summit where they
sit down and they talk about things that you would
only talk about at a CEO summit at Apec, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And you you you made the point that a lot
of other people at the summit were watching the video.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah. Yeah, in the crowd.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
There was one guy watching it and should his friend.
And then just before Jack Team went live on air,
somebody came up to him and said, oh, New Zealand,
I saw this hacker. So I thought, oh okay, and
I went around and had a couple of chats with
some of the journalists in the media village, and a
lot of them had seen it, you know. So it's
something that definitely spread around the world. And you know,
I put a little bit of pressure on Chris Luxon,
but I think that at the end of the day,
(24:10):
I mean, people that are anti government or a left
wing were going to be anti government left wing anyway.
The pressure really is between Labor, anti party Marty for
what it's worth, an actor doing well out of this.
So it's kind of you know, the two biggest parties
are the ones under the biggest amount of pressure here.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, the center is very much not holding and that
you know, the major parties are definitely getting tryed up
by the minor ones. Jason Walls Thomass would be politically
editor and Chris Coverage. I thank you very much for
joining us on the tiles. On the tiles for another week.
I have been and continue to be Thomas Coplin, the
political editor of The Herald, and we will talk to
(24:48):
you soon next week. Eth Sills is a producer and
I thank him very much for it. EA
And welcome to on the Tiles, the New Zealand Hero's
politics podcast wrapping the week. The Fortnight with Me is
News Talks BS Politically is to end at the Chair
of the Press Gallery. Very busy man at the moment, Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Walls, the chair of the Gallery. Stuff is taking up
more of my time than reporting these days.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Actually, you're just about to appear before a parliamentary selickt committee.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I am, it's before I am.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
They're dragging me in front of them. But no, no,
we we voluntarily chose to appear in front of them
for the parliament bill. We think that you should be
able to ohia parliamentary services because you know, it's a
bit of a bit of a blind spot in the
current legislation. So it's going to be a bit weird
actually sitting there at the mercy of.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The n MPs.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Do you stand by all your statements?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Oh, listen to the context in which they were given.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I do. I'm glad to hear it. Look, let's let's start.
You've just been overseas. You've been to Peru, to Lima Apex.
What was it like? What's the digest was the apex?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Apex does a lot like NATO, which is a lot
like a lot like the Asian Summit, which is a
lot like every other conference you see a lot of
conference conference center walls and windows is pretty much the
most of it. But you know, these security is tied
at these things, as it would be you got Shuji
Ping there, You've got Joe Biden there, and you've got
Christopher Lux and the big three.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Some would say no, you wouldn't be at one.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's kind of weird though, because you just see them
walking around like never by themselves. They have an entourage.
But the first APEX that I ever went to, if
I remember correctly, was in Vietnam. We were going up
the stairs as Justin Trudeau was going down them, and
so we just looked up and there he was, just
looking around smiling. So you know, it was fine. I
think that, and I've been saying it this week that
(01:47):
we sometimes get a little bit too fixated on what
the ninth floor called announceables, you know, just something that
they can announce to show that they're doing something, because
we as media also just love to report and announceable.
But there wasn't really one big set piece. Look what
we've done here from APEX, which I don't think is
a particularly bad thing. I think New Zealand is a
small We're tiny compared to a lot of the other countries,
(02:09):
and we don't really have the opportunity to get round
the big around the table with some of these bigger
players unless we're at a place like APEC And I
think that Chris Luxon, you know, he came, he saw,
he conquered. He was only there for a day and
a half, and he chatted with Shijing Ping, he talked
with the heads of government for Singapore, for Peru of course,
and a number of others, really stating the New Zealand
(02:31):
case for trade. So no, he didn't come out with
a free trade agreement with the United States, for example,
but that was never really the goal.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Joe Biden should just you know, try and get one
over the line.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
With his last act in office, a free trade agreement
with the news.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I suppose to go to Congress, that's mine. How what
was the vibe like it with she?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
She was it was it was good like we go
in the room. You you know, it's you've been to
these things. It's a lot of hurry up to wait.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I don't know, I've never done.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
A they're very similar.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You just you get told by some official come here
at this exact time else you won't be let in,
and you get to this place and military precision, and
then you wait around for a long time until you're
told by someone okay go and then about fifteen different
people with cameras run in front of you and you've
got to throw your elbows out.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
But the opening.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Remarks were very warm, they always are between she and
Chris Luxon talking about how they want they've there's been
a lot of firsts within New Zealand and China.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
First they do, they do, or it's always the first.
I forget where it's four.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Or five, maybe five five firsts?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, the first first, first FDA, first country to something
right regarding the worth the World Trade Organization is two
of them. And then there's some sort of first in
terms of posted dolomatic recognition. But I forget. There are
a lot of firsts. Yes, and I'm sure listener will help.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And that was sort of the point that j Ping
was making and was saying, we want more of those,
and then christ for Luxin opened up, I've been this
is my third time I've been in a bilot with
the New Zealand Prime Minister and Shijingping. Every single time
Shijingping talks for a lot longer than the New Zealand
Prime Minister, whether it's ar Dern, Hipkins or Luxen, they
they're quite short.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Actually, I would.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Note the thing.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I mean, it's always niceties at the beginning. But it
was a couple of days later when we're asking or
the next day, sorry, we're asking Luxe and about what
are some of the things that the Chinese side were
not happy with that he proactively raised orcus, which was
quite interesting, saying that, yeah, they weren't really that pleased
with the fact that we're exploring it. And I think
for him to proactively raise it, I mean, you know,
(04:38):
you don't say what did they not like? Usually they
say something, Oh, there was a number of things discussed,
but he brought up August, which was I thought was
quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that it's interesting that that
August frustrates the Chinese enough that they, you know, put
them on being a Chinda like that, and you wonder
whether that als is the cost benefit analysis of New
Zealand going into it.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, that's what the Labor Party have been arguing this
whole time. Is it worth threat China moving.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I'm just trying to find on my phone the for
first I wrote something about the major.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You're so good at podcasting is still organized?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
This is this is raw political podcasting right here.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This is There's a story I did a while ago
on then anyway coy this week big, big, big week
in parliament, biggest. I mean, I was reading Audrey Young's
politics email today. Subscribe if you do not already, but
I think she's She said that it had been the
biggest that she had seen.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
She's the biggest in living memory.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, you know so, so she's vastly more experienced
than us, So I'd say, I'd say that's big big.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I would say, though, Audrey, and I don't feel bad
about bad mouthing her, because she bad mouthed me in
one of her columns a couple of weeks ago. But
she actually wasn't out for sure, and see a.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Bit was she wasn't. No, she was over, she was
somewhere else, but she was in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, on doing work, I should add, but it was massive.
The he coy this was, I mean, I knew it
was going to be big. I had a conversation with
Nick Mills on Wellington Mornings and he was saying, what
do you reckon ten thousand and thirty thousand? And I
said to him, I would be surprised. I've got to
thirty thousand. I think ten thousand sounds quite big. But
then when we got out there, I mean, what was
(06:15):
that forty.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Fifty thousand officials forty two and then but people are
thinking up to fifty Yeah, so we need we need
to codify the rules around crowd counting. I see someone
some data journalists was data scientists as an investigating drone
based solutions for crowd counting. Well, we need that. Trump
administration is very keen on.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
It up until recently. The way that we've done crowd
sizes in New Zealand is just a couple of journalists
kind of get together about how many do you reckon
and then we're like five thousand, like yeah, it looks
about right, and then we splashed that across everywhere else.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So Parliamentary Security, here's a rough they've got. They've got
a benchmark for what it takes to fill the lawn,
which I think is five thousand, right, so if you
managed to fill up shoulder to shoulder the the four court,
then you've got five. But obviously this this was went
vastly beyond that us like sort of down most of
(07:07):
Lampton Key And yeah, I wish I'd actually been able
to leave the precinct to get down limps to see
how far down it went. Yeah, you couldn't sort of
see into it. Yeah, yeahsive impressive size. The government obviously
quite unmoved by it, you know, David Seymour seems fairly nonplussed.
M I mean, Labor and the Greens into Party Maray
(07:33):
seemed to be fighting over you know, who gets to
sort of claim it. Obviously it's more affiliated with to
Party Mary than the other two parties, but they're both
are all kind of fighting.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, it's an interesting one to watch, I mean, outside
the bill itself, Like the bill the HIKOI was never
going to move anything. It was never going to change anything.
It's i mean, NAT's going to vote it down. David
Seymour is getting more press out of this, no matter
how much he gets upset about what he says is
the biased coverage of it. He's getting a lot of
coverage about on his side of it as well. So
(08:02):
the way that you look at Tea Party Marty, especially
in labor, I mean, if you were going into this
completely blind and you were looking at the Labor Party socials,
you would think that they were the ones that organized it.
Same with the Greens. But obviously it's been it's been
Tea Party Marty driven from the beginning. I mean, the
Hikoy itself was is very very inextrica extricably linked to
(08:22):
Tea Party Marty as a political movement.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
So it's really good advertising for them.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Actually quite interesting, interested as a sort of counterpoint to
what you were saying, Quite interested to see the amount
of the prominent appearances of Party Mary MPs mainly deb
Nardi with Pecker and Rawerti Whiteity on Labor social media
because usually you know, when you I mean obviously that
(08:51):
most issues the left parties dying up on left and
the right, not on the right. And then and and
and they're trying and exclude each other from their social media.
You know, it's a climate change. The Labor will make
sure that the Greens are kind of like not probably
placed in the social media, and likewise the Greens and
Labor but I've been interested that later that after the
three parties signed that joint memory or the joint campaign
(09:14):
I guess against the Tree Principal's bill two weeks ago.
I think that actually Labor has been quite prominently featuring
you know, you can see Debian and Rabadi on a
few you know, Labor social media parts, which is kind
of unusual. And I'm not sure about I'm not sure whether.
I mean, certainly it's a good idea. It certainly cuts
against the conventional wisdom, which is that you try to
(09:37):
pretend that your competition parties don't right.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, but we'll see, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I wonder as well. I mean, that's interesting. It'll be
very interesting to see the next round of polls. I
guessing Textpans Union will be the next one, Yeah, in
early decend. And then I imagine one news for one news.
Kant has probably got one more.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I would put one out on the field after this.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I meant they should do four or five or six
a year.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, I would say this would be a great one.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, And I like, you know you. In the most
recent Taxpayers Union poll, I think treaty issues were up
to sixteen percent of people put them in the top
three issues. Yeah, and the three D Principal's Bill has
I think forty five forty six percent support, so you know,
it's quite the bill is itself is quite popular?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because once people
get a loan in a voting booth or alone with
a polster, they actually start expressing their true thoughts and
they're like, well, hang on a second, I kind of
do like the idea of this bill.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yes, I mean it's sort of this is where I
think the opposition. I think it always happens. I think
with large protest movements is that whichever side of the
aisle the movement backs, they tend to get caught up
in it and believe the kind of phr And certainly
there hasn't been any polling that were seen that suggests
(11:01):
that there's a majority or actually anything approaching a majority
of people who don't support the bill. And you know,
like the line and the paper yesterday that the people
have spoken and then labors suit of social media, the
Seymour's gonna you know, it's the thousands of New Zealanders
that are wrong. You know, it's not like you can't
(11:24):
when you're when the purpose of the stated purpose of
the hikoy is to stop a referendum. You can't really say, oh,
the people have spoken, because that's actually what you're trying
to stop.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Quite ironic, isn't it. Action Now that you've said it,
put it.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like that, you're you're not the people aren't speaking. Your
your objective is to not allow them to speak, because
you think it's you know, audios, which is completely legitimate.
There are some things on which you know it is
not appropriate to have referendum, and that is the argument
that they're making. The argument they're not making, well, well,
the argument they are saying they are making, and yet
(11:57):
that isn't actually the argument is that the people are speaking, right,
Just don't really I understand how they are able to
hold those two things together.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm just thinking now, I mean, you might be, you
might know, but have you heard Tipati Marti's actual opposition
to why it is that they don't think the treaties
principles should be or the bill itself. I can't remember
the last time I heard them actually articulated. I mean,
I'm sure, I'm definitely sure that they've got a view,
but I.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Mean, the main argument is not so much the referend them.
It's just that the question I disposed is that is
the principles they are attached from? What the what the
actual principles are? Yea? And if it established to be
and like that's I mean and there I mean, I mean,
one would imagine that were were it possible, were someone
(12:46):
to drive the Treaty Principles bill that included the principles
that you know currently exist, even though that seem to
be dispersed in many places and are much more complicated
than I suppose you'd ever put into a single piece
of legislation. But were that actually possible, would be interesting
to see what the Tarti Marty would supported out. I
don't think they would. But the main opposition is actually
that the proposition is wrong and therefore it shouldn't go
(13:07):
to a vote, which again is a is a totally
tenable argument that it is not the argument that they're making,
which is that the people have spoken and they don't
want it. Yeah, yeah, which the people are not. You
are not allowing the people, that's the point. But it's
you know, it's it's an interesting one, and it's an
interesting one for labor On. One imagines they might be
(13:28):
might be getting a wee bit squeezed, but I suppose
it'll all be over by what six months time?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I suppose so.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
But then, I mean, we've got the select Fit Committee
for six months. But they've also tea party Marty have
put themselves on the global map with this, because you know,
we can talk about how it was the New York Times, BBC,
everybody did this bill. And remember they're not trying to
talk about this protest. Rather, they're not trying to get
to five percent. They're just trying to win the Marty seats.
And I would say they've got a very good shot
(13:54):
at that. And they're not up against Act, they're not
against national, they're up against labor for those Martis. So
I would say you're right the squeeze as well, and truly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
On and interesting to see, you know. I mean. The
other thing with the equos is obviously that the stated
admission of the hkoy Is is around three D Principal's
bill and to kill it, kill the bill, great tagline,
but you know you don't. I don't think you mobilize
that many people to kill a bill that isn't actually alive.
(14:23):
And and you know you to talk to protests and
everyone everyone knows that it's not going anywhere, like it
really isn't It really isn't going anywhere. So I think
I actually think a large part of the mobilization was
a broader kind of but like what Shane Jones was saying,
a kind of broader mobilization against what is seen to
be an assault on Mary and that is, you know,
(14:45):
obviously not going anywhere. And it's interesting that again Rowdy
White to see a lot of his messaging on his
socials on the forecourt as well as to get on
the Maori roll and that's very you know, that's that's
massive as well.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
They put a social media post up just before and
I was looking at it as I came in because
I thought that this is exactly what I thought was
going to happen. There there was Tipati Marty. I've got
to here, one thousand new enrollments in the Mati electric
role since the start of the Hikui. Now a thousand
doesn't sound like tons, but when you've got the size
of the Mary electric seats a lot smaller than a
lot of the other ones, a thousand is quite significant.
(15:19):
And where do you think that those thousand are going
to be volding you know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, it's very I mean that's a that's a mess
of change, you know. So, I mean they're playing they're
playing a very very very good, long long game. Y.
It's really it's a it's a great I mean, it's
sort of funny for both for both acting to party
Mari who I imagine the other parties that will probably
benefit from this the most is that they're both kind
of saying that this is a waste of time, and
(15:43):
it sort of there is a waste of time because
the bill isn't going anywhere, but both of them have
almost want to waste yeh time as much as possible
because they're doing very well out. I mean, can I
as you know you've been in Parliament a while, we
have this very interesting situation with this ers being you know,
(16:04):
this Standing Orders Committee would be reviewing the Standing Orders
as it does every three years. That they'd be standing
that up shortly, I imagine, but they're going to be
called in even earlier to investigate this question of whether
the standing orders can can contain the kind of disruption
that we saw on Thursday last Thursday with Hannah RAFTI
(16:25):
might be Clark's hakka, what do you think.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I think it's high time for the standing orders. I mean,
as you say, they get reviewed quite regularly, but like
this is a good opportunity to be able to do them.
And I think it's it's twofold. And I'll start with
the two party Marti hakker one first, which is at
this stage there is absolutely no disincentive for them, for
any political party to do something like that. I mean,
look at the fact they had this. I heard this
(16:49):
morning and it sounded massive and it's probably right seven
hundred million plus people that have viewed that around the world,
and that's a conservative estimate, given it's quite hard to
track these sorts of things. And if that is tipati Marti,
basically at their best, and I use best in terms
of what they want the world to see. You know,
them at their best is not sitting there standing up
(17:11):
and saying nay and sitting down. It is doing a
powerful harker that has been literally seen across the world
hundreds of millions of times. And if the punishment for
doing something so grossly disorderly, which is technically what it
is according to the speaker, is you're not allowed to
come to parliament for a day and you get your
pay doct. I mean there's being slapped with a wet
(17:32):
bus ticket, and then there is just sort of having
somebody wave their finger at you from three miles away
and giving you a tisk test that you'll never hear.
I mean, the risk versus a reward is way off
at this stage. But the question that we have is
how do you bring that into balance. I would say
that saying now your banned from parliament for ninety days
is anti democratic because that is essentially taking away what
(17:54):
your constituents considered to.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Be their right to democracy.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So the other thing, and we were having a good
conversation about this before, is the financial element of it.
And I think something that could work is if you
go directly after the leader's fund, which is the money
that each political party gets from the tax player payer
to just help them with their day to day operations
as a political party. And if you come after that,
then I think that that's probably quite a strong incentive
(18:19):
because that is going to stop you campaigning, it's going
to stop you doing a lot of things, and it's
probably quite a harsh punishment very quickly. The other thing
that the standing Orders Committee needs to do is crack
down on superfluous supplementary questions. Specifically, Winston Peters is making
a mockery of the House every single question time it's
Ricardo Menandez March or it's Chris Hipkins, or it's Kieran
(18:44):
McNulty are standing up saying you cannot use the way
supplementary is the way that Winston does and Jerry Brownley
lets him get away with it every single time.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
The Winston roll is the informal parliamentary Yeah, working for this,
which is that some of the standing orders are envorced
more likely against senior members.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's ludicrous.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So if you're gonna if you're going to take a
crack at Tibati Marti, you need to take a crack
at Winston as well, because he's making a mockery of
the House at the moment.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
What today is? Today Today's you know, if you're listening
to this, I recommend you go back and watch the
Parliament TV on demand today Greeni and p land Farm
was was quizzing Shane Jones about the fun Marine Reserve
and she she mentioned a New World, a Ponsonby New
World and it's got up and challenged her, saying that
(19:35):
there was no new and and and it was the
houses of Sailand and and and and you know, because
I suppose I suppose if there weren't any New World
and potsib then paul Land Farm might have had to
sort of you know, the next question time get up,
I seek to make a correction. No, I suppose it's
(19:55):
a question, but you have to create. Yeah, you have
to corect it. Barbar Emans had to do it the
other day as well. But but there is there is
a there is a New World and Freeman's Bay. I
think which which might qualify?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So she was Interestingly, I'll just point out I've just
had an email come through from the Speaker's office because
remember the the complaint that TI Party Marti sent to
the Speaker's office alleging that he had blocked the Wi Fi. Well,
the speakers office say, we didn't receive a form more
complaint about this. Yah, so I never they never actually.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Complained, like I mean, they might have complained to the media.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I mean, I sort of. I think it's an interesting one.
I think the problem for T Party Marti is that
the hacker was probably what. It hasn't been a one off.
There's the hacker that wid about the nick ties I
think having to wear the truice code last term, you know,
and there have been other kind of smaller or leasser
(20:55):
kind of disturbances and yeah, I'm you know, if you're
if you do it once on a very big issue
like this, then I think you sort of get a
wee bit of leeway because it is a significant issue.
There's no two ways about it. So you're allowed to
you have more more leeway to do something that's disorderly
(21:17):
and not absolutely have the book thrown at you, because
it is just you kind of need a way of
protesting something in proportion to how significant an issue it
is for you. A problem with Party Malori is that
they that proportionality is not really their thing, and they
have done this a fair bit and and do seem
(21:39):
to enjoy the social media component of.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
It, yeah, testing the speaker in the house, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And and they they they do as a party, tend
to spend more time playing to social media then then
then using the house for debate or opposition. You know.
I mean, the government was not noting the other day
that they barely attended any budget debates. Very critical of
(22:06):
the budget, but but but didn't really put up any
fight or debate the budget at all. So you know,
when you when you're sort of making a mockery of
the House like that, you're you're going to get called
out and possibly you know, have some al changes directed
at you. And you know, it's certainly like the government
seems the I mean, you do hear the odd grumble
from Labor very quietly about Party Maurray, very very quietly,
(22:29):
and certainly the government side of things is pretty hacked
off it. Oh yeah, the conduct because it is quite
disruptive and it's it does make a mockery of the
democratic You know, the whole country has elected the Parliament
to operate on behalf of itself. And if a small minority,
you know, which didn't even pass the five percent threshold,
has never passed the five percent threshold, if a small
(22:50):
minority is sort of as disruptive the functioning of the House,
and that's that doesn't reflect well on there their attitude
towards other people's right to have a functioning. Yeah, Jason,
I know you have to go, you have to do
your submission.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I do I do have a few more minutes if
you wanted to double something else.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Do you have any last thoughts? I have known my topics.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, we've already all we've we yap you and I
don't we wants.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yes, that's what needs to be yes final thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
No, I mean I just think that, you know, the
thing marrying those two topics up actually was interesting Apec,
and the Hakker is that when I was over there,
it was quite the buzz. We were sitting there watching
Chris lux and at some ridiculous CEO summit where they
sit down and they talk about things that you would
only talk about at a CEO summit at Apec, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And you you you made the point that a lot
of other people at the summit were watching the video.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah. Yeah, in the crowd.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
There was one guy watching it and should his friend.
And then just before Jack Team went live on air,
somebody came up to him and said, oh, New Zealand,
I saw this hacker. So I thought, oh okay, and
I went around and had a couple of chats with
some of the journalists in the media village, and a
lot of them had seen it, you know. So it's
something that definitely spread around the world. And you know,
I put a little bit of pressure on Chris Luxon,
but I think that at the end of the day,
(24:10):
I mean, people that are anti government or a left
wing were going to be anti government left wing anyway.
The pressure really is between Labor, anti party Marty for
what it's worth, an actor doing well out of this.
So it's kind of you know, the two biggest parties
are the ones under the biggest amount of pressure here.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, the center is very much not holding and that
you know, the major parties are definitely getting tryed up
by the minor ones. Jason Walls Thomass would be politically
editor and Chris Coverage. I thank you very much for
joining us on the tiles. On the tiles for another week.
I have been and continue to be Thomas Coplin, the
political editor of The Herald, and we will talk to
(24:48):
you soon next week. Eth Sills is a producer and
I thank him very much for it. EA
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