August 3, 2024 • 10 mins
The National Party announced a policy today to improve achievement levels in maths, following their Annual General Meeting this weekend.
Education Minister Erica Stanford joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss this and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
EDB Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So Yes, the National Party have held their annual General
meeting this weekend in Auckland. It's the first AGM since
they returned to government and they finished off with an
announcement saying they are bringing forward plans to revamp the
math's curriculum following a study that shows of year eight students,
(00:33):
sixty three percent are a year behind and only twelve
percent of Maris students are at or above curriculum level.
Christopher Luxen described those results as representing total system failure
and to discuss that, we're joined by Ministry of Education
Erica Stanford.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Good afternoon, Good afternoon, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Hey, how was the AGM
on the whole for you?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Look, the conference was, as it always is, a great
chance to connect with our members who are the people
at the grassroot to do all the hard work for us,
to give them a thanks for helping us get back
into government. And here's what to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Okay, look, let's let's get straight into it. These stats
are horrendous, aren't they. Sixty three percent of year eights
are more than a year behind. How did it get
so bad?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Look, it has been a decline over many decades. But
look at those results. They're pretty disheartening. But what they
tell us is we don't have any time to wait.
We can't afford another year where fifty thousand students are
behind curriculum and getting behind. So we've bought forward all
(01:41):
of our plans in terms of introducing maths mastery to
make sure that we're not leaving any of these kids behind.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I mean, inevitably people will play party politics with them
this but as you've said, this problem has been bring
for a wrong time. Where did it start to go wrong?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Look, it's like a plane crash. There's usually multiple things
that go wrong. And when you look across the system,
you look at the fact that our curriculum hasn't been
detailed and specific enough year by year about what needs
to be taught, and when we haven't been using the
latest evidence based teaching practice in mathematics, we haven't been
assessing our kids along the way to see that they
(02:19):
are actually needing a lot more help. We haven't been
using really good data and evidence. And also we've been
letting our teachers down at initial teacher education by not
making sure that the math standards the entry was high
enough and then actually not making sure that they had
the math knowledge during initial teacher education they needed to
set them up for success. It is total system failure.
(02:40):
As the Prime Minister said.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Is any of this sorry to ask a tarde old question,
but is any of this on COVID?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Oh? There is certainly always a COVID element to things,
because there is a tale of kids who have spent
a couple of years and lost a lot of learning.
But overall it doesn't change the picture, which is continual
decline over many decades, and we are willing to do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Chris Hepkin's a former education minister that the year eight
students who we're referring to had started school under national
standards with the previous national government. Is it your fault?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Oh, for goodness sake, he would go there. Look, as
I said multiple decades, this is not about silly, petty politics.
This is about what is the right thing to do
for our kids to make sure that they're at curriculum
by the time they go to high school to set
them up for success. And that is about curriculum change.
Evidence based policy assessment along the way, fixing teacher education
(03:32):
and making sure we're using data in evidence and we're
putting in place all of those things. This is not
about who started when and what and where. This is
about getting the right things in place to change the
future for our kids, and we are willing to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Historically, do we have any data that look where we
can look back in time and go actually, back then
we were doing all right and then the slide started.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
You can look back about thirty years where we used
to have reading, writing, and maths in the top ten piece.
But that is back before we changed the curriculum in
two thousand and seven to this very broad waftly document
that doesn't actually lay out what has to be imparted
each year and in watch which order. It has these
(04:14):
broad bands of achievement, and so you know, if you
are a teacher that's not confident in mathematics, which you
know the results that all the reports show us that
there are many who have been let down, don't feel
confident teaching math, don't know how to teach long division, Well,
they can put it off. Another teacher can teach it
another year. Because it's not specified that I must teach
it this year. So we have had this kind of
(04:35):
very vague system that hasn't actually put me the accountability,
and we're going to bring that back. But I need
to say to all the teachers out there, you have
been let down, and we are here to provide you
all of the tools, all of the resources, all of
the professional learning and development you need. We're putting serious
cash into this to back you up because the system
has let you down.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That does sound like a statement that's also designed to
keep teachers on side in a way. I mean, but
doesn't some of this doesn't some of this sit on
their doorstep in terms of the people within education who
have been who have to have been witnessing this over years.
Have they been asleep at the wheel or something.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No, I don't think it's fair to characterize it like that.
Teachers are the most passionate and credible people that I
ever met, and they are doing God's work. I tell
you that. But as I say, they have not been
set up for success. The curriculum doesn't tell them what
to teach. We're not assessing along the way. You know,
they haven't had what they needed at initial teacher education.
It is total system failure. We have got to correct
those things.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
What now for those year eights though, have they got
a shot at catching up?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
And look, it is really tough when you go into
high school and you don't know your times tables, you
know off by heart, which you need to be able
to do so you don't get cognitive overload when you're
trying to solve complex problems. And we will work with
the high schools as we already have been doing to
help them catch those kids up. But I have to
hats off to the high school principles who have been
putting an enormous effort over many many years to catch
(06:02):
kids up both in literacy and in numerous and over
COVID as well, and we'll continue those supports.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Do these results in maths do they paint a broader
picture about what we should be concerned about with the
broader education of children.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I think that they do. And I think what they
tell us is the education experiment in New Zealand that
has been going on for the last thirty years is over.
We're not discussing it anymore, we're not arguing about it anymore.
It is over. It is important that we assess our
kids so we know where they're out so that we
can catch them before they fall. That argument is over.
(06:39):
It's important that we have a knowledge rich curriculum based
on the science of learning. That argument is over. We
are using structured maths, structured literacy based on cognitive science
and the latest research, because that's how kids' brains learn
to read and write and do mathematics. No more of
this child will come to school and tell you what
they want to learn. We're going back to teachers are
(07:01):
there to in part knowledge and do explicit teaching of
the basics that need to be mastered by kids so
that they can go on to be creative and be
successful at high school and get great qualifications to go
on to live the life they want. This represents a
fundamental shift in the way that we do education in
this country.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
What response are you expecting within the vocation or profession
of teaching.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well, I've already surfaced this plan many principles and teachers,
and when they see the results, they say to America,
you have no choice. We have to do this. We
cannot continue on what we're doing. And all of the
resources you're willing to put in are very very welcome,
But I understand introducing two brand new curricula at the
(07:51):
same time is a hard ask on our teachers, which
is why we're prepared to invest everything. Basically, the Prime
Minister said to me, do whatever it takes to support
our teachers to get this implemented, and that's what I'll
be doing.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Okay. Look, just broadly speaking, we're going to be having
a chat with the former Speaker of the House, David Carter.
It seems the tone in Parliament is getting a little
bit toxic with some personal attacks. John Key has mentioned
we need to take the temperature down. What is your
observation on the way politicians are going about their business
when it comes to these tricky issues. Do we have
We got a big problem on our hands with the
(08:27):
way you guys are all interact with each other.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Look, it's hard to say. I tend to stay out
of it. I've got a big focus and a big
job ahead of me, and I'm totally focused on education,
immigration and the Crown response into abusion here and so
I tend to ignore this stuff. But look, it has
gotten a lot more toxic and there is a lot
of hypocrisy going on in the House. I hear a
lot of MPs yelling out pretty horrific things and then
(08:55):
complaining to the speaker that someone said awful about something
awful about them. I mean, it's just childish, you know,
and it is pretty nasty. And I'm pretty thick skinned
than just we're going to I can handle the jandle,
but look, there are a number of others who are
I send sort of that sort of thing, and you know,
we do have to take the temperature down. We do
need to be respectful and remember why we are here.
(09:16):
It's not to bitch and moan at each other. It's
actually in my job to make sure our kids are
achieving at school. And if someone wants yelled something at
me across the house, well good on them. But I'm
focused on raising achievement and closing the equity gap.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Excellent. Hey, just on the on the sort of happy
news side of things, have you been enjoying some moments
on the Olympics and anything particularly following?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Uh, you know, the first thing that I watched was
the Emma twig last night. That's literally the first thing
I've seen because we've been so busy putting this math
plan together and I have to go back and watch
some of the highlights. It's been a real shame that
I've missed out.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Okay, well look at you'll enjoy some of that stuff anyway. Hey,
I really appreciate the time you've you've you've spent with
us to South Noon, Erica, thanks so much to Bye
Bye Bye. That is Erica Stanford, Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
More from the Weekend Collective. Listen live to News Talk
ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
EDB Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So Yes, the National Party have held their annual General
meeting this weekend in Auckland. It's the first AGM since
they returned to government and they finished off with an
announcement saying they are bringing forward plans to revamp the
math's curriculum following a study that shows of year eight students,
(00:33):
sixty three percent are a year behind and only twelve
percent of Maris students are at or above curriculum level.
Christopher Luxen described those results as representing total system failure
and to discuss that, we're joined by Ministry of Education
Erica Stanford.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Good afternoon, Good afternoon, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Hey, how was the AGM
on the whole for you?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Look, the conference was, as it always is, a great
chance to connect with our members who are the people
at the grassroot to do all the hard work for us,
to give them a thanks for helping us get back
into government. And here's what to look forward to.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Okay, look, let's let's get straight into it. These stats
are horrendous, aren't they. Sixty three percent of year eights
are more than a year behind. How did it get
so bad?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Look, it has been a decline over many decades. But
look at those results. They're pretty disheartening. But what they
tell us is we don't have any time to wait.
We can't afford another year where fifty thousand students are
behind curriculum and getting behind. So we've bought forward all
(01:41):
of our plans in terms of introducing maths mastery to
make sure that we're not leaving any of these kids behind.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I mean, inevitably people will play party politics with them
this but as you've said, this problem has been bring
for a wrong time. Where did it start to go wrong?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Look, it's like a plane crash. There's usually multiple things
that go wrong. And when you look across the system,
you look at the fact that our curriculum hasn't been
detailed and specific enough year by year about what needs
to be taught, and when we haven't been using the
latest evidence based teaching practice in mathematics, we haven't been
assessing our kids along the way to see that they
(02:19):
are actually needing a lot more help. We haven't been
using really good data and evidence. And also we've been
letting our teachers down at initial teacher education by not
making sure that the math standards the entry was high
enough and then actually not making sure that they had
the math knowledge during initial teacher education they needed to
set them up for success. It is total system failure.
(02:40):
As the Prime Minister said.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Is any of this sorry to ask a tarde old question,
but is any of this on COVID?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Oh? There is certainly always a COVID element to things,
because there is a tale of kids who have spent
a couple of years and lost a lot of learning.
But overall it doesn't change the picture, which is continual
decline over many decades, and we are willing to do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Chris Hepkin's a former education minister that the year eight
students who we're referring to had started school under national
standards with the previous national government. Is it your fault?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Oh, for goodness sake, he would go there. Look, as
I said multiple decades, this is not about silly, petty politics.
This is about what is the right thing to do
for our kids to make sure that they're at curriculum
by the time they go to high school to set
them up for success. And that is about curriculum change.
Evidence based policy assessment along the way, fixing teacher education
(03:32):
and making sure we're using data in evidence and we're
putting in place all of those things. This is not
about who started when and what and where. This is
about getting the right things in place to change the
future for our kids, and we are willing to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Historically, do we have any data that look where we
can look back in time and go actually, back then
we were doing all right and then the slide started.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
You can look back about thirty years where we used
to have reading, writing, and maths in the top ten piece.
But that is back before we changed the curriculum in
two thousand and seven to this very broad waftly document
that doesn't actually lay out what has to be imparted
each year and in watch which order. It has these
(04:14):
broad bands of achievement, and so you know, if you
are a teacher that's not confident in mathematics, which you
know the results that all the reports show us that
there are many who have been let down, don't feel
confident teaching math, don't know how to teach long division, Well,
they can put it off. Another teacher can teach it
another year. Because it's not specified that I must teach
it this year. So we have had this kind of
(04:35):
very vague system that hasn't actually put me the accountability,
and we're going to bring that back. But I need
to say to all the teachers out there, you have
been let down, and we are here to provide you
all of the tools, all of the resources, all of
the professional learning and development you need. We're putting serious
cash into this to back you up because the system
has let you down.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That does sound like a statement that's also designed to
keep teachers on side in a way. I mean, but
doesn't some of this doesn't some of this sit on
their doorstep in terms of the people within education who
have been who have to have been witnessing this over years.
Have they been asleep at the wheel or something.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
No, I don't think it's fair to characterize it like that.
Teachers are the most passionate and credible people that I
ever met, and they are doing God's work. I tell
you that. But as I say, they have not been
set up for success. The curriculum doesn't tell them what
to teach. We're not assessing along the way. You know,
they haven't had what they needed at initial teacher education.
It is total system failure. We have got to correct
those things.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
What now for those year eights though, have they got
a shot at catching up?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
And look, it is really tough when you go into
high school and you don't know your times tables, you
know off by heart, which you need to be able
to do so you don't get cognitive overload when you're
trying to solve complex problems. And we will work with
the high schools as we already have been doing to
help them catch those kids up. But I have to
hats off to the high school principles who have been
putting an enormous effort over many many years to catch
(06:02):
kids up both in literacy and in numerous and over
COVID as well, and we'll continue those supports.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Do these results in maths do they paint a broader
picture about what we should be concerned about with the
broader education of children.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I think that they do. And I think what they
tell us is the education experiment in New Zealand that
has been going on for the last thirty years is over.
We're not discussing it anymore, we're not arguing about it anymore.
It is over. It is important that we assess our
kids so we know where they're out so that we
can catch them before they fall. That argument is over.
(06:39):
It's important that we have a knowledge rich curriculum based
on the science of learning. That argument is over. We
are using structured maths, structured literacy based on cognitive science
and the latest research, because that's how kids' brains learn
to read and write and do mathematics. No more of
this child will come to school and tell you what
they want to learn. We're going back to teachers are
(07:01):
there to in part knowledge and do explicit teaching of
the basics that need to be mastered by kids so
that they can go on to be creative and be
successful at high school and get great qualifications to go
on to live the life they want. This represents a
fundamental shift in the way that we do education in
this country.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
What response are you expecting within the vocation or profession
of teaching.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well, I've already surfaced this plan many principles and teachers,
and when they see the results, they say to America,
you have no choice. We have to do this. We
cannot continue on what we're doing. And all of the
resources you're willing to put in are very very welcome,
But I understand introducing two brand new curricula at the
(07:51):
same time is a hard ask on our teachers, which
is why we're prepared to invest everything. Basically, the Prime
Minister said to me, do whatever it takes to support
our teachers to get this implemented, and that's what I'll
be doing.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Okay. Look, just broadly speaking, we're going to be having
a chat with the former Speaker of the House, David Carter.
It seems the tone in Parliament is getting a little
bit toxic with some personal attacks. John Key has mentioned
we need to take the temperature down. What is your
observation on the way politicians are going about their business
when it comes to these tricky issues. Do we have
We got a big problem on our hands with the
(08:27):
way you guys are all interact with each other.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Look, it's hard to say. I tend to stay out
of it. I've got a big focus and a big
job ahead of me, and I'm totally focused on education,
immigration and the Crown response into abusion here and so
I tend to ignore this stuff. But look, it has
gotten a lot more toxic and there is a lot
of hypocrisy going on in the House. I hear a
lot of MPs yelling out pretty horrific things and then
(08:55):
complaining to the speaker that someone said awful about something
awful about them. I mean, it's just childish, you know,
and it is pretty nasty. And I'm pretty thick skinned
than just we're going to I can handle the jandle,
but look, there are a number of others who are
I send sort of that sort of thing, and you know,
we do have to take the temperature down. We do
need to be respectful and remember why we are here.
(09:16):
It's not to bitch and moan at each other. It's
actually in my job to make sure our kids are
achieving at school. And if someone wants yelled something at
me across the house, well good on them. But I'm
focused on raising achievement and closing the equity gap.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Excellent. Hey, just on the on the sort of happy
news side of things, have you been enjoying some moments
on the Olympics and anything particularly following?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Uh, you know, the first thing that I watched was
the Emma twig last night. That's literally the first thing
I've seen because we've been so busy putting this math
plan together and I have to go back and watch
some of the highlights. It's been a real shame that
I've missed out.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Okay, well look at you'll enjoy some of that stuff anyway. Hey,
I really appreciate the time you've you've you've spent with
us to South Noon, Erica, thanks so much to Bye
Bye Bye. That is Erica Stanford, Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
More from the Weekend Collective. Listen live to News Talk
ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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