October 25, 2025 • 12 mins
Last Thursday was the largest protest New Zealand has had for decades, a combined strike across multiple public sector groups including PSA members and PPTA members.
It certainly sent a message, but that message depends on who you ask. While many sympathise with the issues the public sector is facing, many have also dubbed it 'the start of a five day weekend' for teachers.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b
So last Thursday, of course, we saw the largest protest
New Zealand scene for quite some time, a coordinated striker
across multiple public sector groups including PSA members and teachers
and healthcare workers, with about one hundred thousand people walking
off the job for the day. So I certainly send
(00:26):
a message, but that des message, I guess depends on
who you ask. While many sympathize with the issues the
public sector is facing, some people dubbed it the start
of a five day weekend. Somewhat cynically. The government has
claimed it's politically motivated. Well, life is politics, isn't it?
But what didn't protests achieve? And what's next? PSA National
Secretary for Philiffitz Simons is with me now, Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
So was the strike a success?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Absolutely? What we saw was about one hundred thousand workers
all taking strike action in response to collective bargaining offers
that are just not meeting their needs, the needs of
our public health and education system. And it was a
very powerful message to the government and really a historic
day for New Zealand as the new Zealand Herald said
(01:14):
on its front page history was made.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So as the size of it, basically the success you go,
lots of people strike, went on strike, bingo, win or
win for us.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, look, it's too early to say what it's full
success will be because obviously we need to see these
collective agreements settled, we need to see these workers' issues
listen to and responded to by the government with fair payoffers.
But also really importantly for members in for example, the
health sector, a big concern of THEIRS is the lack
(01:45):
of safe staffing in our hospitals, and that means ross
is being filled, vacancies when they arise being filled, and
really the public health system being set up to deliver
the service that New Zealanders need and deserve and expect. Success.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, I guess, I mean some of the health problems aren't.
You look at any other other countries and people are
complaining of the same things. It's not not the easiest
sort of criteria to fulfill, is it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well, Actually, if you look at other countries, they do
pay health workers significantly more, and that's why we're seeing
so many of our doctors and nurses and allied health
workers looking to Australia for better terms and conditions of employment,
job security and a lifestyle which is easier as a result,
(02:33):
and we are losing too many of our health professionals,
many of whom have trained here to Australia and other countries.
In fact, the Australian government for a time were sending
people out here trying to attract our health professionals, our
social workers because of the low wages. So I don't
think it's something we should be resigned to. New Zealand
has had a health system to be proud of in
(02:55):
the past because governments funded it properly and workers were
paid better compared with other countries. So you know, I
think we can get there again. It is possible.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I mean, I guess the question a lot of people
have is are the are the pay demands, specifically, are
they economically or realistic, because there's a lot of people
in the private sector are saying, well, I'd love a
pay rise like that, but there's fat chants. Are we
economically realistic in our expectations?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, I think what workers are asking for is to
stay ahead. They want to not go backwards. Payoffers that
are the low inflation effectively take workers in their families
backwards and they ask them to subsidize the government. Really,
and yes, we do need to see pay increases in
the private sector go up as well, but actually, every
(03:42):
worker in New Zealand needs to be paid more. New
Yelland has a low wage economy and we need to
address that. But these pay demands are really simply asking
for the pay to remain at current levels. They're not
asking for big pay increases, are simply asking to have
inflation reflected in their pay. And actually, if you look
(04:02):
back to before the election, Chris relux And said that
he would be laser like focused on the cost of living. Well,
here's some workers who he can be responsible for their
cost of living and he's not coming to the table
to address it.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I guess, well, we all have to pay for that
as well. But I guess the low wage economy issue
that you raise, that's sort of that's quite a broad challenge,
isn't it. It's not just something that can be solved
by a strike, is it.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, no, that's right. We need to see the minimum
wage increase. We need to see mechanisms like fair pay
agreements introduced so that there's an industry wide approach to
wages and that wages increase. But in this dispute, in
this moment, what these workers are asking for is simply
not to go backwards. And I don't think that's unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, Brian Roche said, Well, the conversation's been a bit
tit for tat, hasn't it about whether you had exhausted
bargaining before striking? But can I just try and get
a bit of clarity on this. So when the unions,
including the PSA, called for strike action last Thursday, had
every formal step under the Employment Relations Act been completed
(05:14):
or pursued.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, if you look at our mental health workers bargaining,
that's three and a half thousand mental health workers in
patient and mental health facilities all over the country, including nurses,
mental health assistants and others. They attended bargaining for twenty
nine days. We still in that bargaining don't have a
formal offer from the employer. Despite the union repeatedly saying
(05:38):
what we wanted to settle it, we did not even
get a formal offer in response. So it's just frustrating
to be sitting and bargaining for that many days, bringing
delegates to Wellington or sometimes auklanned off the job, sitting
there trying desperately to make progress and not even getting
a formal offer. Now, different bargainings are at different stages,
(06:01):
but for that one, it's really frustrating and it's not
the same to where we're at at Allied Health. We
have a formal offer there at least, but it's nowhere
near the steps that we need to address safe staffing
or pay. It's taking us backwards, so.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I mean, but to be more specific, with many of
the of the processes, there is still there are still
more steps that can be taken under the employment relationship
like facilitation et cetera, arbitration, that's still steps that could
be taken. I guess which would be what Brian Roche
might be referring.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
To, is it Well, those steps are still available to
the parties. But really the employers and the government had
every chance to make fair pay offers prior to the strike.
And really what the strike is about is sending a
clear message that workers are behind these pay demands, that
are behind the need for safe staffing in our hospitals,
(06:53):
and they want to demonstrate that. So the government really
understands how important it is not only to those workers
and their families, but to the healthcare system that we need.
And really that's what the strike's about. And there are
plenty of opportunities now for employers to come to the table,
but we need to see better offers. We can't see
offers that get worse, and that's what we've seen so far.
When we're returned to bargaining, they come up with a
(07:15):
longer term, which actually means the payoffer is worse. So
that kind of approach is just going to inflame the
situation and lead to more strikes.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I've had some correspondence and I'll try and boil it
down to one simple question. With this big action, with
one hundred thousand people in unions all joining together, is
this really about getting the right sort of payoffer or
is it about changing the government next year?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Oh? No, I think it is clearly linked to the bargaining.
If there was no disputes in the bargaining, if we
were getting a payoffer which reflected at least inflation, which
addressed some of the staffing issues that we are concerned about,
you wouldn't be seeing these strikes. I'm absolutely guarantee you there.
It is about not being able to make progress in
this bargaining and you don't get one hundred thousand workers
(08:02):
going out because a couple of people said it is
about changing the government. That is not true. It is
about the pay demands, It is about safe staffing, is
about concern for the public health system. And look, these
allied health workers, dietitians, lab assistants, their old supplies workers,
they just want to see the health system function properly
(08:23):
so they can do their job well.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So what's next, Well, we're really.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Hopeful that the employers and the government will come to
the table. And really what we need the government to
do is say to the employer's lot, you need to
try and improve the offer. Work constructively, listen respectfully, understand
where they're coming from and what they want, and let's
find a way through this. But if that doesn't happen,
if we don't see better offers, then there'll be more
strike action until we do.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Well, what about the processes of the that are available
under the Employment Relations Act? Wouldn't you be better to
fall back to some of those in facilitation and arbitration
rather than go for another strike.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're certainly going to mediation with the Allied Health dispute,
and we're not ruling out any other options. If we
see that there is a possible way to forward, this
is a possible way to settle this, then we will
do that. But they all come back to collective bargaining,
and we're available to collectively bargain at any time. We're
really keen to get back to the table, but we
(09:20):
want to see those offers and pros I do.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I mean, I don't want to dig into this too much.
So when you say you're available to collectively bargain, and
yet there'll be some who say that you seem very
quick to go on strike, how do you balance that
and how do you think the public would respond to
another strike?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I don't think it was very quick. Some of
the bargaining had been taking place for a whole year
without the progress that we needed. It was not quick. Look,
we've been overwhelmed by the support from the public and
what people have told us, and what our members know
from working in hospitals is that there is problems and
disruption in hospitals every single day because there already is
(09:59):
not enough staff. Rosters aren't filled when vacancies arise, there's
a long process to go through to get those people replaced.
Even if you do get them replaced, in many instances
they're not being replaced. So that's the reality day to
day in our hospitals. So look, the strike, Yes, it
was disruptive and that's unfortunate, and no worker takes that
(10:19):
action lightly. But it does happen every day in our hospitals,
this disruption, these delays because of the underfunding and the
unsafe staff levels. So we've been really grateful to have
the public support, but we don't take it for granted,
and that's why no worker takes strike action lightly. We'd
much prefer to settle this dispute before Christmas.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
How many workers set to work, how many workers to
actually represent, and maybe separate the number of health workers
out from that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So the PSA has over ninety five thousand members all
over the country. They work in all different areas. The
health sector itself, our memberships around twenty thousand workers, many
of whom work in hospitals and things like Allied Health.
Are people at work and mental health, but also people
that do the data and digital work to make the
(11:08):
hospital system actually function.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, because look the cynic might say that you've talked
a lot about the health workers, and who doesn't love
health workers? But that's just over twenty percent of the
ninety five thousand workers that you do represent. I mean,
what do you say to that that the other workers
are piggybacking on? Look, hey, the health workers are great,
we need to pay them more. A lot.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
We've had been years disputes and other employers, including Access
Home Healthcare ordering a summity key, the New Zealand Defense Force.
There's been a lot of industrial election this year, and look,
we don't shy away from that because our members need
to be properly respected and properly paid. All of those
other disputes have settled, sometimes after quite long and difficult
(11:51):
strike action, like in the case of the Defense Force.
And look, at the end of the day, this one
will settle to Industrial disputes always do excellent.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Okay, Well we'll let fingers crossed for that.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Flur.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Thanks very much for your time. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks EDB weekends from three p m.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talks'b
So last Thursday, of course, we saw the largest protest
New Zealand scene for quite some time, a coordinated striker
across multiple public sector groups including PSA members and teachers
and healthcare workers, with about one hundred thousand people walking
off the job for the day. So I certainly send
(00:26):
a message, but that des message, I guess depends on
who you ask. While many sympathize with the issues the
public sector is facing, some people dubbed it the start
of a five day weekend. Somewhat cynically. The government has
claimed it's politically motivated. Well, life is politics, isn't it?
But what didn't protests achieve? And what's next? PSA National
Secretary for Philiffitz Simons is with me now, Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
So was the strike a success?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Absolutely? What we saw was about one hundred thousand workers
all taking strike action in response to collective bargaining offers
that are just not meeting their needs, the needs of
our public health and education system. And it was a
very powerful message to the government and really a historic
day for New Zealand as the new Zealand Herald said
(01:14):
on its front page history was made.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So as the size of it, basically the success you go,
lots of people strike, went on strike, bingo, win or
win for us.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, look, it's too early to say what it's full
success will be because obviously we need to see these
collective agreements settled, we need to see these workers' issues
listen to and responded to by the government with fair payoffers.
But also really importantly for members in for example, the
health sector, a big concern of THEIRS is the lack
(01:45):
of safe staffing in our hospitals, and that means ross
is being filled, vacancies when they arise being filled, and
really the public health system being set up to deliver
the service that New Zealanders need and deserve and expect. Success.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, I guess, I mean some of the health problems aren't.
You look at any other other countries and people are
complaining of the same things. It's not not the easiest
sort of criteria to fulfill, is it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well, Actually, if you look at other countries, they do
pay health workers significantly more, and that's why we're seeing
so many of our doctors and nurses and allied health
workers looking to Australia for better terms and conditions of employment,
job security and a lifestyle which is easier as a result,
(02:33):
and we are losing too many of our health professionals,
many of whom have trained here to Australia and other countries.
In fact, the Australian government for a time were sending
people out here trying to attract our health professionals, our
social workers because of the low wages. So I don't
think it's something we should be resigned to. New Zealand
has had a health system to be proud of in
(02:55):
the past because governments funded it properly and workers were
paid better compared with other countries. So you know, I
think we can get there again. It is possible.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I mean, I guess the question a lot of people
have is are the are the pay demands, specifically, are
they economically or realistic, because there's a lot of people
in the private sector are saying, well, I'd love a
pay rise like that, but there's fat chants. Are we
economically realistic in our expectations?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, I think what workers are asking for is to
stay ahead. They want to not go backwards. Payoffers that
are the low inflation effectively take workers in their families
backwards and they ask them to subsidize the government. Really,
and yes, we do need to see pay increases in
the private sector go up as well, but actually, every
(03:42):
worker in New Zealand needs to be paid more. New
Yelland has a low wage economy and we need to
address that. But these pay demands are really simply asking
for the pay to remain at current levels. They're not
asking for big pay increases, are simply asking to have
inflation reflected in their pay. And actually, if you look
(04:02):
back to before the election, Chris relux And said that
he would be laser like focused on the cost of living. Well,
here's some workers who he can be responsible for their
cost of living and he's not coming to the table
to address it.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I guess, well, we all have to pay for that
as well. But I guess the low wage economy issue
that you raise, that's sort of that's quite a broad challenge,
isn't it. It's not just something that can be solved
by a strike, is it.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, no, that's right. We need to see the minimum
wage increase. We need to see mechanisms like fair pay
agreements introduced so that there's an industry wide approach to
wages and that wages increase. But in this dispute, in
this moment, what these workers are asking for is simply
not to go backwards. And I don't think that's unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, Brian Roche said, Well, the conversation's been a bit
tit for tat, hasn't it about whether you had exhausted
bargaining before striking? But can I just try and get
a bit of clarity on this. So when the unions,
including the PSA, called for strike action last Thursday, had
every formal step under the Employment Relations Act been completed
(05:14):
or pursued.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, if you look at our mental health workers bargaining,
that's three and a half thousand mental health workers in
patient and mental health facilities all over the country, including nurses,
mental health assistants and others. They attended bargaining for twenty
nine days. We still in that bargaining don't have a
formal offer from the employer. Despite the union repeatedly saying
(05:38):
what we wanted to settle it, we did not even
get a formal offer in response. So it's just frustrating
to be sitting and bargaining for that many days, bringing
delegates to Wellington or sometimes auklanned off the job, sitting
there trying desperately to make progress and not even getting
a formal offer. Now, different bargainings are at different stages,
(06:01):
but for that one, it's really frustrating and it's not
the same to where we're at at Allied Health. We
have a formal offer there at least, but it's nowhere
near the steps that we need to address safe staffing
or pay. It's taking us backwards, so.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I mean, but to be more specific, with many of
the of the processes, there is still there are still
more steps that can be taken under the employment relationship
like facilitation et cetera, arbitration, that's still steps that could
be taken. I guess which would be what Brian Roche
might be referring.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
To, is it Well, those steps are still available to
the parties. But really the employers and the government had
every chance to make fair pay offers prior to the strike.
And really what the strike is about is sending a
clear message that workers are behind these pay demands, that
are behind the need for safe staffing in our hospitals,
(06:53):
and they want to demonstrate that. So the government really
understands how important it is not only to those workers
and their families, but to the healthcare system that we need.
And really that's what the strike's about. And there are
plenty of opportunities now for employers to come to the table,
but we need to see better offers. We can't see
offers that get worse, and that's what we've seen so far.
When we're returned to bargaining, they come up with a
(07:15):
longer term, which actually means the payoffer is worse. So
that kind of approach is just going to inflame the
situation and lead to more strikes.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I've had some correspondence and I'll try and boil it
down to one simple question. With this big action, with
one hundred thousand people in unions all joining together, is
this really about getting the right sort of payoffer or
is it about changing the government next year?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Oh? No, I think it is clearly linked to the bargaining.
If there was no disputes in the bargaining, if we
were getting a payoffer which reflected at least inflation, which
addressed some of the staffing issues that we are concerned about,
you wouldn't be seeing these strikes. I'm absolutely guarantee you there.
It is about not being able to make progress in
this bargaining and you don't get one hundred thousand workers
(08:02):
going out because a couple of people said it is
about changing the government. That is not true. It is
about the pay demands, It is about safe staffing, is
about concern for the public health system. And look, these
allied health workers, dietitians, lab assistants, their old supplies workers,
they just want to see the health system function properly
(08:23):
so they can do their job well.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So what's next, Well, we're really.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Hopeful that the employers and the government will come to
the table. And really what we need the government to
do is say to the employer's lot, you need to
try and improve the offer. Work constructively, listen respectfully, understand
where they're coming from and what they want, and let's
find a way through this. But if that doesn't happen,
if we don't see better offers, then there'll be more
strike action until we do.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Well, what about the processes of the that are available
under the Employment Relations Act? Wouldn't you be better to
fall back to some of those in facilitation and arbitration
rather than go for another strike.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're certainly going to mediation with the Allied Health dispute,
and we're not ruling out any other options. If we
see that there is a possible way to forward, this
is a possible way to settle this, then we will
do that. But they all come back to collective bargaining,
and we're available to collectively bargain at any time. We're
really keen to get back to the table, but we
(09:20):
want to see those offers and pros I do.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I mean, I don't want to dig into this too much.
So when you say you're available to collectively bargain, and
yet there'll be some who say that you seem very
quick to go on strike, how do you balance that
and how do you think the public would respond to
another strike?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I don't think it was very quick. Some of
the bargaining had been taking place for a whole year
without the progress that we needed. It was not quick. Look,
we've been overwhelmed by the support from the public and
what people have told us, and what our members know
from working in hospitals is that there is problems and
disruption in hospitals every single day because there already is
(09:59):
not enough staff. Rosters aren't filled when vacancies arise, there's
a long process to go through to get those people replaced.
Even if you do get them replaced, in many instances
they're not being replaced. So that's the reality day to
day in our hospitals. So look, the strike, Yes, it
was disruptive and that's unfortunate, and no worker takes that
(10:19):
action lightly. But it does happen every day in our hospitals,
this disruption, these delays because of the underfunding and the
unsafe staff levels. So we've been really grateful to have
the public support, but we don't take it for granted,
and that's why no worker takes strike action lightly. We'd
much prefer to settle this dispute before Christmas.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
How many workers set to work, how many workers to
actually represent, and maybe separate the number of health workers
out from that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So the PSA has over ninety five thousand members all
over the country. They work in all different areas. The
health sector itself, our memberships around twenty thousand workers, many
of whom work in hospitals and things like Allied Health.
Are people at work and mental health, but also people
that do the data and digital work to make the
(11:08):
hospital system actually function.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, because look the cynic might say that you've talked
a lot about the health workers, and who doesn't love
health workers? But that's just over twenty percent of the
ninety five thousand workers that you do represent. I mean,
what do you say to that that the other workers
are piggybacking on? Look, hey, the health workers are great,
we need to pay them more. A lot.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
We've had been years disputes and other employers, including Access
Home Healthcare ordering a summity key, the New Zealand Defense Force.
There's been a lot of industrial election this year, and look,
we don't shy away from that because our members need
to be properly respected and properly paid. All of those
other disputes have settled, sometimes after quite long and difficult
(11:51):
strike action, like in the case of the Defense Force.
And look, at the end of the day, this one
will settle to Industrial disputes always do excellent.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Okay, Well we'll let fingers crossed for that.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Flur.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Thanks very much for your time. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks EDB weekends from three p m.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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