April 12, 2025 • 9 mins
Christopher Luxon had a spree of phone calls with world leaders this week regarding the ongoing U.S. trade war, but Winston Peters says he should have been consulted beforehand.
Political commentator Peter Dunne says the Prime Minister was completely in his right to make calls without speaking to the Foreign Minister first.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'd be some drama has been brewing, drama, little tiff
perhaps between the Prime Minister and his deputy and Foreign
Minister of course, Winston. Peter's after some phone calls with
world leaders this week, so Christopher Luckson and we know
it's going been going on with tariffs and everyone's been
a bit sort of alarmed by so Christopher Luxon had
a spray of phone calls with world leaders regarding the
(00:30):
ongoing trade war. Peters says he should have been consultant
consulted as the Foreign minister. So was Christopher Luxon overstepping
and former politician and political commentator Peter Done is with
me now? Good afternoon, Peter.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good afternoon. Jim.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Feels like it's been a while. Hasn't it nice to
have you back?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It's been a while, but to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Is Peter's doing a bit of a fill goff and
speaking out of turn here.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I think what Peter's is doing is just bearing in
mind the fact he's only got a few more weeks
left as deputy Prime Minister. He's just cutting his ground
little loose for the campaign head look, I think the
narrative he's tried to spin for the last eighteen months
is that as a newbie, Christopher Luxen needs his wisdom,
experience and guidance to make the government run effectively. And now,
(01:20):
of course that his days as Deputy Prime Minister nearing
to an end, and Luxon seems on this and decided
he can do it by himself. I think it's a
little bit of peak that he's thrown off the train
and wheels, and so Winston's determined to show that he's
still the master.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Did Christoph Luxon do anything wrong?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
No, he didn't. In fact, as Prime Minister, he's first
among equals, so he's perfectly entitled to make what in
Australia is known as a captain's call on any matter.
So he could decide to intervene across any portfolio at
any time. Now there are ways in which you do that,
of course, not to offend your ministers. But in a
situation like this where he said he was going to
(01:58):
talk to other world leaders about what's going on, it's
entirely appropriate for the prime minister.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So is it a problem for the government in a
way that the Deputy PM and I think he's made
some comments about it again recently or in third he's.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Made some again today along the lines of being a
mixed historical reaction. I think was the phrase that he used.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Does that mean there's if I could quite a Yorkshire expression,
is there trouble at mill Well, it's.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hard to know. I mean the question. I think this
is a challenge to Luxon, but he can't do anything
about it in a logical sense. What he could do
is say, look, this is overstepping the mark. You can't
carry on as Foreign minister. Well, that would bring the coalition,
that would bring the coalition collapsing down, and that's not
going to happen. So I think what Luxon's probably going
to do with just more all of this where the
(02:45):
criticism that by not standing up to Peters's being weak,
but actually knowing that the moment he does do that,
Peters is the sort of vengeful person that pulls the
whole house of cars down. So I think Luxon will
carry on doing what he's doing. Peters will continue to
bleep that he's being ignored. It was the same complaint
he used against just Sinda Radun during COVID when he
was Deputy Prime Minister then, and I think that this
(03:07):
will just take its course and after time will run
out of steam.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Do you think.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Actually that Kristoph Lackson might think, Okay, look he's Winston's
said he wasn't having with me not talking to him.
I'm still going to do these things. But maybe I'll
just pick up the phone and say, look this is
what I'm doing Winston Or is this just Winston's?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
He could do that, He could do that, But I
think this is more, as you suggest, to sort of
a bit of grandstanding and just throwing weight around us.
You know, who's the real master here? He just likes
to parade himself as being so vastly experienced from foreign affairs,
more experience than anyone else on the who's even political scene,
and even more experienced than many on the international scene.
And I think he's a bit missed that what he
(03:44):
regards as his territory is being encroached upon by the
Prime minister. But the Prime Minister is the head of government.
The Prime Minister is the one with the entree to
other heads of government, and it's entirely appropriate to act
in this way.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So who is in charge of foreign affairs?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Ultimately the prime minister. You know the wonderful line from
Sir Humphrey apple Be and less prime minister. Prime minister
does give us them prime ministers take up away best
it be the name of the prime minister. It applies here.
Now it's not quite as simple as that, as you suggest.
Luxem could well have maybe had a phone conversation. But
at the end of the day, the responsibility for all
(04:20):
of government activities lie with the Prime Minister, and they
are free to override ministers as they see fit. Now
they've got to make a judgment cause to how wise
that is and how the particular circumstances might merit it.
But in this case, with the world's facing potentially an
international crisis over Trump's tariffs and how to react to them,
for the Prime Minister to say, I'm going to talk
(04:41):
to other world leaders and see what they think. I
don't think there's anything we're all wrong with that. I'd
be horrified if he wasn't doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
In fact, do you think that what we're going to see?
I mean, you've alluded to the fact that he's stepping
away from the deputy prime minister role. Winston Peters soon
do you think that we've seen the transformation of him
from a retail politician during campaigning to quite a different personality.
I would argue as a deputy prime minister and Foreign minister.
Do you think we're going to see this gradual I
(05:08):
don't know if the words regression to Winston the retail
politician from here on in, Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I do, and we saw it a couple of weeks
ago with the war on Woke speech. It's the starting
of positioning New Zealand first as being the one party
that stands up to all the others, the one party
that's it's ignored, picked on, victimized by the others, but
almost bounces that. Winston's always been very very good at
playing the victim and elictening support and sympathy on that basis,
(05:35):
and he's it's worse for him for the last thirty
ideas as a political tactic. I think exactly what we're
going to see this time over the next eighteen months
as that same game being played out again. He won't
threatening the stability of government necessarily, but this constant nagging
thorn in the side being as distant from government as
he possibly can be if tough decisions are being made.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Is actually that the right move, because I would argue
that there is there could be a school of thought
that would say he has become much more popular in
government as a deputy prime minister and as a high
performing foreign minister, and Tom to revert to the retail
politician might actually lose them some support.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I think there's an argument in that respect. There's no
doubt that this term in government has been New Zealand
First's best. They haven't been beset by scandals, they haven't
looked like exploding or imploding. There's still eighteen months ago,
so who knows what might happen. But I think that
as a context of that, a lot of people might
have reformed their views about him. Having said that, I
think there's a school of thought that, particularly amongst younger voters,
(06:34):
that see this whole man of eighty as really yesterday's man,
and we'll see comments like this about Luxon has been
just proof of that. Now. I don't think they're in
a majority yet, but that view would grow. But I
think Pieters has got to be very careful that trying
to protect New Zealand First position going forward, which is
perfectly just my aspiration on his part, that he doesn't
(06:56):
end up actually alienating a lot of other people along
the way that he might otherwise had on board.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
On the substantive issue. And Winston's saying, look, he just
advises politics to tone it down and look just to me,
but a little bit more circumspect. I don't know what
I'm trying to re paraphrase what he said, but basically
not to rush off in a sort of too hastily
to try and forge out of the relationships. Is he
right on that or is he simply saying that because
(07:22):
actually lucks and what Luckson did was smart, is getting
in touch with.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
You. I don't think Luckson's at the point yet of
forming new relationships. You simply saying I'm going to talk
to others about what they think. There is a risk
here of overreaction. I agree with Peter's on that score,
but I don't think we're at that point. I think
that the Prime Minister simply saying I'm just going to
sort of canvass the field see what others thing. We're
not New Zealand's not in a position to leave the charge.
We're going to be part of whatever the reaction is.
(07:49):
But Obviously, we want to know what that feeling is
amongst other nations before we decide what we're going to do.
So I think they are paying is going to be
in cautious but Peter just doesn't like not being part
of it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
The lay person's approach to this, look at this for
me would be, look, if we don't have a great
relationship for the next two or three years, it's going
to be challenging with America. We should be exploring other opportunities.
Do you actually think that the current situation with the
tariff and White House and all this sort of stuff
and unpredictability, do you actually think that there are some
(08:20):
opportunities that might present themselves more readily because of what's
going on for us?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yes, I do. And in fact, if you look at
New Zealand's history over the last one hundred and fifty
odd years, it's always been this quest for trade security,
getting the trading relationships that we need to bolster our
export opportunities, to bolster our economy. So this is just
a new variation on that theme. We've been through Britain
joining the Common Market, We've been through the consequence of
oil shops and the seventies, the global financial crises of
(08:48):
the eighties and the early two thousands. We've always had
the evident position in response to those. This is simply
the latest in that variation and it will be responsible
for a New Zealand government to simply say, well, look,
that's the way it is. We're not going to do anything.
We've got to look at new opportunities. A free trade
agreement with Ideas lou is an even more exciting possibility.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For example, Yeah, what advice would you have for Christopher
Luxon if you were you know, hers, Jiminy.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Cricket, I'd say two things from keep on doing what
you're doing. It's perfectly proper for you to talk to
your fellow leaders engage their views. But maybe just might
want to make the odd phone call to your foreign
minister just so he can't say he's been left out
of the loop. But at the same time, you're the
prime minister, you head the government, you make those big calls.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Good stuff, Hey, Peter, great to talk to you really
appreciate it and thanks for your insight.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news talks.
It'd be weekends from three pm or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'd be some drama has been brewing, drama, little tiff
perhaps between the Prime Minister and his deputy and Foreign
Minister of course, Winston. Peter's after some phone calls with
world leaders this week, so Christopher Luckson and we know
it's going been going on with tariffs and everyone's been
a bit sort of alarmed by so Christopher Luxon had
a spray of phone calls with world leaders regarding the
(00:30):
ongoing trade war. Peters says he should have been consultant
consulted as the Foreign minister. So was Christopher Luxon overstepping
and former politician and political commentator Peter Done is with
me now? Good afternoon, Peter.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good afternoon. Jim.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Feels like it's been a while. Hasn't it nice to
have you back?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It's been a while, but to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Is Peter's doing a bit of a fill goff and
speaking out of turn here.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I think what Peter's is doing is just bearing in
mind the fact he's only got a few more weeks
left as deputy Prime Minister. He's just cutting his ground
little loose for the campaign head look, I think the
narrative he's tried to spin for the last eighteen months
is that as a newbie, Christopher Luxen needs his wisdom,
experience and guidance to make the government run effectively. And now,
(01:20):
of course that his days as Deputy Prime Minister nearing
to an end, and Luxon seems on this and decided
he can do it by himself. I think it's a
little bit of peak that he's thrown off the train
and wheels, and so Winston's determined to show that he's
still the master.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Did Christoph Luxon do anything wrong?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
No, he didn't. In fact, as Prime Minister, he's first
among equals, so he's perfectly entitled to make what in
Australia is known as a captain's call on any matter.
So he could decide to intervene across any portfolio at
any time. Now there are ways in which you do that,
of course, not to offend your ministers. But in a
situation like this where he said he was going to
(01:58):
talk to other world leaders about what's going on, it's
entirely appropriate for the prime minister.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So is it a problem for the government in a
way that the Deputy PM and I think he's made
some comments about it again recently or in third he's.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Made some again today along the lines of being a
mixed historical reaction. I think was the phrase that he used.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Does that mean there's if I could quite a Yorkshire expression,
is there trouble at mill Well, it's.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hard to know. I mean the question. I think this
is a challenge to Luxon, but he can't do anything
about it in a logical sense. What he could do
is say, look, this is overstepping the mark. You can't
carry on as Foreign minister. Well, that would bring the coalition,
that would bring the coalition collapsing down, and that's not
going to happen. So I think what Luxon's probably going
to do with just more all of this where the
(02:45):
criticism that by not standing up to Peters's being weak,
but actually knowing that the moment he does do that,
Peters is the sort of vengeful person that pulls the
whole house of cars down. So I think Luxon will
carry on doing what he's doing. Peters will continue to
bleep that he's being ignored. It was the same complaint
he used against just Sinda Radun during COVID when he
was Deputy Prime Minister then, and I think that this
(03:07):
will just take its course and after time will run
out of steam.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Do you think.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Actually that Kristoph Lackson might think, Okay, look he's Winston's
said he wasn't having with me not talking to him.
I'm still going to do these things. But maybe I'll
just pick up the phone and say, look this is
what I'm doing Winston Or is this just Winston's?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
He could do that, He could do that, But I
think this is more, as you suggest, to sort of
a bit of grandstanding and just throwing weight around us.
You know, who's the real master here? He just likes
to parade himself as being so vastly experienced from foreign affairs,
more experience than anyone else on the who's even political scene,
and even more experienced than many on the international scene.
And I think he's a bit missed that what he
(03:44):
regards as his territory is being encroached upon by the
Prime minister. But the Prime Minister is the head of government.
The Prime Minister is the one with the entree to
other heads of government, and it's entirely appropriate to act
in this way.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So who is in charge of foreign affairs?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Ultimately the prime minister. You know the wonderful line from
Sir Humphrey apple Be and less prime minister. Prime minister
does give us them prime ministers take up away best
it be the name of the prime minister. It applies here.
Now it's not quite as simple as that, as you suggest.
Luxem could well have maybe had a phone conversation. But
at the end of the day, the responsibility for all
(04:20):
of government activities lie with the Prime Minister, and they
are free to override ministers as they see fit. Now
they've got to make a judgment cause to how wise
that is and how the particular circumstances might merit it.
But in this case, with the world's facing potentially an
international crisis over Trump's tariffs and how to react to them,
for the Prime Minister to say, I'm going to talk
(04:41):
to other world leaders and see what they think. I
don't think there's anything we're all wrong with that. I'd
be horrified if he wasn't doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
In fact, do you think that what we're going to see?
I mean, you've alluded to the fact that he's stepping
away from the deputy prime minister role. Winston Peters soon
do you think that we've seen the transformation of him
from a retail politician during campaigning to quite a different personality.
I would argue as a deputy prime minister and Foreign minister.
Do you think we're going to see this gradual I
(05:08):
don't know if the words regression to Winston the retail
politician from here on in, Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I do, and we saw it a couple of weeks
ago with the war on Woke speech. It's the starting
of positioning New Zealand first as being the one party
that stands up to all the others, the one party
that's it's ignored, picked on, victimized by the others, but
almost bounces that. Winston's always been very very good at
playing the victim and elictening support and sympathy on that basis,
(05:35):
and he's it's worse for him for the last thirty
ideas as a political tactic. I think exactly what we're
going to see this time over the next eighteen months
as that same game being played out again. He won't
threatening the stability of government necessarily, but this constant nagging
thorn in the side being as distant from government as
he possibly can be if tough decisions are being made.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Is actually that the right move, because I would argue
that there is there could be a school of thought
that would say he has become much more popular in
government as a deputy prime minister and as a high
performing foreign minister, and Tom to revert to the retail
politician might actually lose them some support.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I think there's an argument in that respect. There's no
doubt that this term in government has been New Zealand
First's best. They haven't been beset by scandals, they haven't
looked like exploding or imploding. There's still eighteen months ago,
so who knows what might happen. But I think that
as a context of that, a lot of people might
have reformed their views about him. Having said that, I
think there's a school of thought that, particularly amongst younger voters,
(06:34):
that see this whole man of eighty as really yesterday's man,
and we'll see comments like this about Luxon has been
just proof of that. Now. I don't think they're in
a majority yet, but that view would grow. But I
think Pieters has got to be very careful that trying
to protect New Zealand First position going forward, which is
perfectly just my aspiration on his part, that he doesn't
(06:56):
end up actually alienating a lot of other people along
the way that he might otherwise had on board.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
On the substantive issue. And Winston's saying, look, he just
advises politics to tone it down and look just to me,
but a little bit more circumspect. I don't know what
I'm trying to re paraphrase what he said, but basically
not to rush off in a sort of too hastily
to try and forge out of the relationships. Is he
right on that or is he simply saying that because
(07:22):
actually lucks and what Luckson did was smart, is getting
in touch with.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
You. I don't think Luckson's at the point yet of
forming new relationships. You simply saying I'm going to talk
to others about what they think. There is a risk
here of overreaction. I agree with Peter's on that score,
but I don't think we're at that point. I think
that the Prime Minister simply saying I'm just going to
sort of canvass the field see what others thing. We're
not New Zealand's not in a position to leave the charge.
We're going to be part of whatever the reaction is.
(07:49):
But Obviously, we want to know what that feeling is
amongst other nations before we decide what we're going to do.
So I think they are paying is going to be
in cautious but Peter just doesn't like not being part
of it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
The lay person's approach to this, look at this for
me would be, look, if we don't have a great
relationship for the next two or three years, it's going
to be challenging with America. We should be exploring other opportunities.
Do you actually think that the current situation with the
tariff and White House and all this sort of stuff
and unpredictability, do you actually think that there are some
(08:20):
opportunities that might present themselves more readily because of what's
going on for us?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yes, I do. And in fact, if you look at
New Zealand's history over the last one hundred and fifty
odd years, it's always been this quest for trade security,
getting the trading relationships that we need to bolster our
export opportunities, to bolster our economy. So this is just
a new variation on that theme. We've been through Britain
joining the Common Market, We've been through the consequence of
oil shops and the seventies, the global financial crises of
(08:48):
the eighties and the early two thousands. We've always had
the evident position in response to those. This is simply
the latest in that variation and it will be responsible
for a New Zealand government to simply say, well, look,
that's the way it is. We're not going to do anything.
We've got to look at new opportunities. A free trade
agreement with Ideas lou is an even more exciting possibility.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
For example, Yeah, what advice would you have for Christopher
Luxon if you were you know, hers, Jiminy.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Cricket, I'd say two things from keep on doing what
you're doing. It's perfectly proper for you to talk to
your fellow leaders engage their views. But maybe just might
want to make the odd phone call to your foreign
minister just so he can't say he's been left out
of the loop. But at the same time, you're the
prime minister, you head the government, you make those big calls.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Good stuff, Hey, Peter, great to talk to you really
appreciate it and thanks for your insight.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news talks.
It'd be weekends from three pm or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio,
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