August 11, 2024 • 25 mins
Alan Duff, a prominent New Zealand novelist and advocate, is best known for his influential debut novel Once Were Warriors (1990), which won the PEN Best First Book Award and was adapted into a successful film. In addition to his literary success, Duff is recognized for his role as a critical commentator on Māori issues. His 1993 analysis, Māori: The Crisis and the Challenge, critiques both traditional and radical Māori leadership for focusing on past injustices rather than promoting self-reliance. Duff’s influence extends through his newspaper columns, which began in 1991 when he wrote for The Evening Post. His thought-provoking pieces, later syndicated to multiple newspapers, have established him as a significant voice in New Zealand's media.
Duff’s contributions to literature and social causes were honoured in 2007 when he was appointed a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE). His impact extends beyond writing, with his co-founding of the Duffy Books in Homes scheme in 1995, which has distributed over 5 million books to underprivileged children.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News talk S ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
GOODA.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm John Cowen, and this show is called Real Life,
but my guest tonight has shown us all what real
life is like for too many New Zealanders. Ellen duff
mbe author of Once for Warriors and What Becomes of
the Broken Hearted and much more. Cure Allen, Hello, Thank
you for making time for it the show. You're seventy three. Now,
are you still working?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I'm still working. Yeah, right now. I'm just working on
a on a couple of scripts for a TV series.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I can't say too much about it. This is the
second project that I'm in and that I've created. It's
just suffice to say it's it's based loosely on one
of my books, which was Set and Hungry.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
All right now?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Is this the one which has got a Z as
a second letter or something to make it unsconmountable.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Which means free free? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I did see a press release that you'd spent quite
a bit of time in Hungary you get around.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Yeah, well, you know, I had to do my research
and I was really crappy myself. You know, what's this
Mary Fellow doing writing about the Hungarian you know, leading
out to the revolution. But you know, I had Hungarians
looking at the manuscript all the way through, and I said,
if you don't think it works, and then I'll burn it.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
But it flew past them.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It got past them. It's got past a Hungarian TV
producer and a couple of Hungarian writers, so you know
it's all on.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Right. Oh well, that's fascinating because I.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Had heard that there was another TV series that you're
involved in the production I called Once We're Warriors Generations.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, we've got that one as well.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Is that in the in the in the can yet
or is it still in production.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Or no, we haven't started production yet.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah, we're just working our ways. Yes, sometimes that you know,
all the obstacles go up and sometimes they don't.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Right now, if I recall from the press release, it's
about it's sort of like a sequel to Once We're
Warriors and that it's the next generation on.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And yeah, so that's so therefore it's not a sequel,
not a sequel. The children are you know, three of
the four surviving kids are successful.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So, and you know, I have been accused of portraying
Marius in a negative manner, but maybe they were right,
maybe they're wrong. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
We did give a snapshot of what life was like
perhaps thirty forty years ago in Yeah, but many of
our communities, have you seen improvements and changes? And are
the generations coming through now? They're more to be optimistic about.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yes, and no. I think there's an element that's that
are fixed in their thinking and they're never going to
go anywhere, and it's generational.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
And I've got very strong views that welfare has yeah,
been the cause of all that. They all feel entitled
and and you know it robs them of any self
dignity because they then have to justify that they well,
you know, we're uneducated or whatever, and we're entitled to
(03:55):
the unemployment.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So, and I see that the life of the years
that you're on it, for the average eighteen year old,
they're on the on the benefit for or twenty seven
years and so and if you go on it in
your mid twenties, she's still going to be on it
for eighteen years. That's how bad it is. And I
(04:21):
said years and years ago that you know, I wrote
in a column that Helen Clark's government and I had
a lot of time for Helen as a person, but
they were destroying us.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well intentioned, but it ended up with the wrong result.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I don't even like that well intentioned. I think that's now,
that's just vanity. You can be well intentioned all you like.
But you know, if you I've been telling us, I
said one hundred years ago, you know almost that if
you give us welfare, you'll kill us. And they went
(05:00):
ahead and that's what they did.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, what would work better?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh? Well, you know, I like all this, you know,
be proud to be mighty. But I also think that education,
and I'm not the only one you know, to quote
something off the back of a main freight truck. Education
is the enemy of poverty. And then we can end
all this nonsense about poverty. Okay, we haven't. We don't
(05:26):
even know what poverty is.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
You mentioned the main freight It's not accidental. They've being
the biggest backers for your Duffy books.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
To tell us about where that started.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Well, the founder of main freight. Bruce plus it got
in touch with me and saw me on a TV
program and said what are you up to? And I said,
I've got this embryonic program called books and Homes and
he sent to check and he's been there with us
all the way through.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Ye and so so Duffy Books started how many years ago?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Visit it actually started.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
We're having our thirtieth anniversary on Monday, but it actually
started the year before at a pretty rough school in Hating.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So yeah, and the idea is you put books in kids' hands.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And what's it, doue.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Well, if you're not exposed to the written word, you're
not exposed to number one of vocabulary, number number two
expanding your imagination, and number three and four and five
or section. And you can just keep coming up with
all of the very good reasons why why it's a
hell of an advantage to read. One of the things
(06:40):
is that your chances have gone if you haven't been
exposed to books from a young age, your chances have
gone to prison go up fifty times, fifty times, fifty times.
Because the people who have never been exposed to the
written word don't self analyze, they don't do anything about
you know, their outlook, their situations. They they're just on
(07:05):
this kind of this right down there on a plateau.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
That is a makesbook sound almost magical.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
But I guess if you get a dead bit of
wood and put ink on it and put in someone's
hands and it creates a world in your head, that
is magic, isn't It is magic?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
And you know, I know I'm a writer, but I
also know a lot about the real life out there,
and you know how rugged it can get. But I
mean Socrates talked way back about he would rather be
He'd rather be dead than live an unexamined life. And
you know, I know people that have never led an
(07:44):
examined life.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And that's what a book does. It's a good mirror,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's a wonderful mirror.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Now there's a cynical side of myself, and that if
you gave a book to a kid who's never had
a book before, and he's super stimulated by gadgets and
phones and things like this, how is he going to
turn on to the idea that if I keep on
turning these pages and reading these words, it's going to
do something to me. How do you turn them on
to the idea of actually reading it or do they
actually get it straight away?
Speaker 4 (08:09):
They get it straight away. It is innate, is it?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Because it's the hundreds.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Of assemblies you know where they get the books. And
I can assure you, like kids don't act anything, and
you can't fall a kid. Either they're either going to
reject it or they're going to embrace it. There's nothing
in between. And they love getting their books and they
(08:35):
love reading.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I wonder if it is that the idea of it's
their book rather than a textbook or a library book,
it's actually something that they're going to be taken home.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Well, we deliberately planned it that way. It was about
them choosing the book. Obviously, the little ones, the five
and six year olds, seven year olds, maybe they don't
choose their own, but the teachers help them. But number one,
they choose it. Number two, they own it. And every
(09:04):
single book that we give out, which is seven hundred
thousand a year, has a sticky label and inside that
says this book belongs to Jason Jupayo or or you know,
Sully Moore or whatever, and it's important to them to
(09:26):
see their name and this belongs to them. The other
thing is that it's brand new. When I first thought
of the idea that, you know, I turned up with
a trailer full of donated books from the readers of
my newspaper column in Hawk's Bay, and the kids just
(09:48):
didn't want to know. And I said to the principle,
what's the problem. And he said, everything they get in
life is secondhand or third hand, and you're just giving
them something that's been used and it's not magic to them.
And so that was quite a revelation, and so giving
(10:09):
them a brand new book was so obviously it's about
choice as well, brand new, the magic of being brand new,
and and ownership.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, if you've been doing it for thirty years and
you're giving away seven hundred thousand books a year, that's
a lot of books. Do you get many stories back
about what sort of impact it's had.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, your countless stories, you know, right from from gang
members coming up to me in a supermarket or wherever,
in a car, you know, car park and you know,
me sort of thinking they're going to give me a
biff around the years or something, and then them saying
thank you for the books. Burrow, Yeah, you know, for
(10:52):
our for our kids, or for our nephews and nieces
and so yep to you know the soul Meo group
who had dinner with I think a couple of years ago,
and it was just the most emotional time, you know,
they were we were all a bit tearful, and because
(11:15):
they said it was books that the Duffy books that
had inspired or made them realize there's a bigger world
out there and why should they grow up to go
and work in a factory or something. And they knew
they could all sing yep, and they decide, well we can,
we can be somebody. So yeah, we've got countless stories
(11:36):
like that. We've got the original school that we started
the programming. They had no university graduates, no, no, no,
nobody with the tertiary education zero. And then you know
then we were using graduates from university and from the
(11:56):
teacher's Training college to go back to that school as
role models. So yeah, it has made a difference. We
wish that it had made more of a difference.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But okay, it is a difference. Though it is a difference.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
If you've just joined us, my guest to Night's author
Alan duff who, as well as showing us bits about
new Zealand that maybe make us uncomfortable. He's also making
a real big difference in helping kids get ahead and
have a bigger view of the world. I'll be talking
more with Alan Duff about what he's up to and
the things that have been important in his world. This
(12:29):
is real life on News Talk sed.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
B, Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
News Talk ZEDB, not.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Love and he and welcome back to real life.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm talking to Alan Duff and he's picked that song
and that's a voice I haven't heard for a long time.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, I mean I first saw her on Black and
White TV when I was eleven.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Mahalia Jackson, I can remember those shows could be similar vintage,
and I remember they used to use little clips of
Mahalia Jackson to sort of fill gaps and things, and
they had to show Mahalia Jackson.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Say yeah, and they really should have shown her driving
around in her roles voice, you know, because she was
absolute super star.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
But now, if that's something that you heard that long
ago and you're still wanting to select it now, it
must have made an impact on you.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Well, I was listening to her this morning. Yeah, so,
and I was listening to Ray Charles and Willie Nelson singing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, so music's a big thing, huge.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Huge, Yeah, I'm obsessed, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Now, Ellen, you come from you are in New Zealand.
You've got a Mari heritage, and you've got a parking
Our heritage. And you've written about aspects of how some
of your upbringing damaged you. But you passed through different
homes and had different influences and things like this. Some
of it was negative, some of though was positive. What
(14:10):
the and you've come to an appreciation of different things.
What is something that you respect and appreciate about the
Mari aspect of your identity?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Well, I wouldn't be here it wasn't for the for
the mighty aspect. They had a huge influence on me,
and you know, musically, sporting, wise, community. I'm not known
as a man who can tell a joke, but I
love the humor. I love being being Mary. But I
(14:47):
do not want any cultural ah Tulliban like person Mary
coming along telling me exactly what defines a Mary effing Well,
just decide that for myself. And I'm not having a
You think that happens, of course it happens. It happens,
(15:08):
and if you don't tick the boxes, then they don't
consider you one of them. How dare they?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Okay, so you get pushed back on some of the
by MARII on some of the things.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You've said very yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Not much, no, okay, initially yes, yes, okay, PEPs, I've
just realized, oh yes, actually maybe you're right.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And how about you grew up not really realizing about race.
I think you said until you got to school and
everything like this, and then you went to live with
parking Our families as well, and yeah, so what's something
from say parking Our culture that you've appreciated as well
that have sort of augmented what you got from your
(15:52):
Mari side.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well, when I know, we used to go down to
my granddad's on the paternal side, and what we got
was everything was peaceful, There was no there was nobody
got ever got drunk. There were books, although you know
we had books because dad was educated. But it was
(16:13):
the peace and the and how civilized and how kind
and warm they were. It was my mighty side they were.
They were kind and warm, but when the when the
drinking started, then they would cut up rough.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Your granddad, I think he founded the Listener, didn't.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
He That's the founding editor.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Founding editor. That's quite a heritage to have. And yeah, that's.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
That's that's why I boas about my writing. It was
just a genetic bit of luck.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Really, you don't claim to be a leader within Mariadam,
but you're a voice that they listened to.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
No, I don't know. I know, I don't know that
they listened to me. Maybe maybe at grassroots level they
do listen to me, but certainly the leaders don't. And no,
I'm not a leader. I'm not not interested in being Okay,
a leader. I might be a leader of thinking.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Well that's leadership, yeah, I mean if you can create it,
but I'm not you know, you don't see it as
a leader. But not seeking power or control at all,
but to influence. And what would be some of the
biggest influences if your voice could be heard more widely
and it is heard widely, but what would be some
of the biggest influences within the Maori community?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You'd like to see?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Uh, love your children?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Forget this whole this worship of violence. And I know
I used to worship myself and I worshiped that the
wrong alter and I just was just like all my
cousins and my mighty mates, we all just thought, you know,
fighting and all that was cool. And it's just the biggest,
(18:01):
most destructive outlook that you can possibly have. And that's
one of the things that I wish I could change.
And of course education, education, education, and then that will stop.
And it's tracks all of that. All the narrative about poverty,
it's just nonsense. All this stuff that they the narrative
(18:24):
has become just so bad. You know, it's a bit like,
you know, they're all talking about the how the state
care and that, you know, that's the shame of the country,
you know, because of all of these kids that went
through that system. Well I went through it and you know,
at boys Home and Basul, so you know, I'm the
(18:48):
I'm the real deal. But you know, of course I've
got you know, a couple of times the screws beat
me out. But so so.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
What, okay, didn't traumatize me, right? So are you saying
to a cry baby? Do you say making people feel
like victims makes them sort of stall on their progress.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
The entire victim mentality is in written with its own
doom because it says somebody else is responsible for me,
for the state or the condition I'm in, and therefore
until that whoever I am laying the blame on comes
along and fixes it, I will forever remain the victim
(19:34):
instead of just saying there's got to be another way.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I mean, I've heard you talk about people having a
loser mindset. Is as part of this idea of because
of who I am, because of what's happened to me,
because of where I come from, I am automatically therefore,
irrevocably a loser.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yeah, and you know the message that we give the kids.
You know, we're going one hundred thousand kids on the
Duffy Books program. We always tell them that it's cool
to aspire, and it's cool to read and you know,
all these positive things, and it's cool to love, you know,
because children need, you know that before anything else, they
(20:14):
need to be loved and encouraged and not hit and
not put down, not discouraged. Not that you've got it.
You've got a little potential sitting there. When I walked
into this office, there was a lovely young woman with
a little baby there, and that that life needs to
(20:35):
be nourished yes, and it is not nourished. If you are,
you're going to be violent or you're going to be
verbally abusive.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, I'm encouraged that people can change. I'm encouraged that
cultures can change. And I think you know, we've both
lived long enough to actually see some positive changes. There's
probably a lot more both pakihan mari, you know, turning
away from violence and turning to education. Do you think
that am I being too polyannerish? Am I being too optimistic?
(21:12):
Or do you think there's the grounds to be optimistic.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
I've got to know, I'm getting increasing concerns.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Increasing concerns.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yes, I just think there's a sector, and I want
to emphasize a sector of.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Marridam that it's a stubborn problem.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
And they're not going they're not getting anywhere, okay, and
you know the reason that or one of them, not
the reasons. But in the book Once the Warriors, I
had Beth watching a soap with her bottle of beer there,
and then she suddenly realized, you know, all the houses,
(21:53):
you know, it was set in America, they've all got
you know, bookshelves loaded with books.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Obviously.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Then she got up and then she started going from
room to room in her house, and she came back
and she sat down. She said, it was like one
of Jake's punches. We're bookless. We're a bookless society, and
none of us is going anywhere. And so that's where
the books and homes idea came from. It was it
(22:23):
was me unknowingly writing something about that thing, and then
it happening to grow and getting lucky and meeting Bruce
Prested and getting the remain threat in there in Christine
Fernie Hoe and all a whole heap of other figures.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Okay, well, definitely a good idea. I can remember reading
research years ago. But the number of books in a
home determines how how well a kid will do in life.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And so you're totally totally you know.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And it's it's when you get evidence like that and
you and you and you don't take it on board,
then you must be either some you're either a fool
or you are the person who who can't possibly know
what they don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Well, I'd like to congratulate you on congratulate me.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Just congratulate all of us.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Okay, I'll congratulate all the people that are making a
difference and helping culture get better. And I still stay
an optimist because one hundred years ago there was a
Maori family, absolute train wreck, in trouble, the girls going
into prostitution, boys going into jail. One of the girls
from that family married my grandfather, and my dad was
raised an absolute chaos, and he grew into a good man.
(23:36):
I remember my dad and I honor him as being
a great dad. And so maybe it takes a generation,
but the generations go by and thinks, I believe can
get better. So I'm just so grateful to the good
influences he had and the good influences that you're making
in people's lives. So thank you, Ellen for taking the
time to speak to us.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Let's go out on another song that you've chosen. It's
an interesting song.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
What is it? It's the drifters singing up on the
roof and it is a magnificent song and that and
we all used to sing that, you know, in our
rugby club rooms and Walker and Rot. You know, when
you hear two hundred mighties all singing that together and harmonizing,
(24:20):
it is just the most wonderful, memorable thing. And I'm
sure your listeners will agree with that when they hear it.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I'm sure they love the song.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
They may not have the same memories that you've got
when you're listening to it, but it's a lovely song too,
Ellen Duff, thank you so much for taking time to
be on real life.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Thank you, guys's trouble.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And will start getting down.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
A ball.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News talk S ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
GOODA.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm John Cowen, and this show is called Real Life,
but my guest tonight has shown us all what real
life is like for too many New Zealanders. Ellen duff
mbe author of Once for Warriors and What Becomes of
the Broken Hearted and much more. Cure Allen, Hello, Thank
you for making time for it the show. You're seventy three. Now,
are you still working?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I'm still working. Yeah, right now. I'm just working on
a on a couple of scripts for a TV series.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I can't say too much about it. This is the
second project that I'm in and that I've created. It's
just suffice to say it's it's based loosely on one
of my books, which was Set and Hungry.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
All right now?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Is this the one which has got a Z as
a second letter or something to make it unsconmountable.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Which means free free? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I did see a press release that you'd spent quite
a bit of time in Hungary you get around.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Yeah, well, you know, I had to do my research
and I was really crappy myself. You know, what's this
Mary Fellow doing writing about the Hungarian you know, leading
out to the revolution. But you know, I had Hungarians
looking at the manuscript all the way through, and I said,
if you don't think it works, and then I'll burn it.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
But it flew past them.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It got past them. It's got past a Hungarian TV
producer and a couple of Hungarian writers, so you know
it's all on.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Right. Oh well, that's fascinating because I.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Had heard that there was another TV series that you're
involved in the production I called Once We're Warriors Generations.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, we've got that one as well.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Is that in the in the in the can yet
or is it still in production.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Or no, we haven't started production yet.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah, we're just working our ways. Yes, sometimes that you know,
all the obstacles go up and sometimes they don't.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Right now, if I recall from the press release, it's
about it's sort of like a sequel to Once We're
Warriors and that it's the next generation on.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And yeah, so that's so therefore it's not a sequel,
not a sequel. The children are you know, three of
the four surviving kids are successful.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So, and you know, I have been accused of portraying
Marius in a negative manner, but maybe they were right,
maybe they're wrong. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
We did give a snapshot of what life was like
perhaps thirty forty years ago in Yeah, but many of
our communities, have you seen improvements and changes? And are
the generations coming through now? They're more to be optimistic about.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yes, and no. I think there's an element that's that
are fixed in their thinking and they're never going to
go anywhere, and it's generational.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
And I've got very strong views that welfare has yeah,
been the cause of all that. They all feel entitled
and and you know it robs them of any self
dignity because they then have to justify that they well,
you know, we're uneducated or whatever, and we're entitled to
(03:55):
the unemployment.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So, and I see that the life of the years
that you're on it, for the average eighteen year old,
they're on the on the benefit for or twenty seven
years and so and if you go on it in
your mid twenties, she's still going to be on it
for eighteen years. That's how bad it is. And I
(04:21):
said years and years ago that you know, I wrote
in a column that Helen Clark's government and I had
a lot of time for Helen as a person, but
they were destroying us.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well intentioned, but it ended up with the wrong result.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I don't even like that well intentioned. I think that's now,
that's just vanity. You can be well intentioned all you like.
But you know, if you I've been telling us, I
said one hundred years ago, you know almost that if
you give us welfare, you'll kill us. And they went
(05:00):
ahead and that's what they did.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, what would work better?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh? Well, you know, I like all this, you know,
be proud to be mighty. But I also think that education,
and I'm not the only one you know, to quote
something off the back of a main freight truck. Education
is the enemy of poverty. And then we can end
all this nonsense about poverty. Okay, we haven't. We don't
(05:26):
even know what poverty is.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
You mentioned the main freight It's not accidental. They've being
the biggest backers for your Duffy books.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
To tell us about where that started.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Well, the founder of main freight. Bruce plus it got
in touch with me and saw me on a TV
program and said what are you up to? And I said,
I've got this embryonic program called books and Homes and
he sent to check and he's been there with us
all the way through.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Ye and so so Duffy Books started how many years ago?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Visit it actually started.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
We're having our thirtieth anniversary on Monday, but it actually
started the year before at a pretty rough school in Hating.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So yeah, and the idea is you put books in kids' hands.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And what's it, doue.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Well, if you're not exposed to the written word, you're
not exposed to number one of vocabulary, number number two
expanding your imagination, and number three and four and five
or section. And you can just keep coming up with
all of the very good reasons why why it's a
hell of an advantage to read. One of the things
(06:40):
is that your chances have gone if you haven't been
exposed to books from a young age, your chances have
gone to prison go up fifty times, fifty times, fifty times.
Because the people who have never been exposed to the
written word don't self analyze, they don't do anything about
you know, their outlook, their situations. They they're just on
(07:05):
this kind of this right down there on a plateau.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
That is a makesbook sound almost magical.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
But I guess if you get a dead bit of
wood and put ink on it and put in someone's
hands and it creates a world in your head, that
is magic, isn't It is magic?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
And you know, I know I'm a writer, but I
also know a lot about the real life out there,
and you know how rugged it can get. But I
mean Socrates talked way back about he would rather be
He'd rather be dead than live an unexamined life. And
you know, I know people that have never led an
(07:44):
examined life.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And that's what a book does. It's a good mirror,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's a wonderful mirror.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Now there's a cynical side of myself, and that if
you gave a book to a kid who's never had
a book before, and he's super stimulated by gadgets and
phones and things like this, how is he going to
turn on to the idea that if I keep on
turning these pages and reading these words, it's going to
do something to me. How do you turn them on
to the idea of actually reading it or do they
actually get it straight away?
Speaker 4 (08:09):
They get it straight away. It is innate, is it?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Because it's the hundreds.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Of assemblies you know where they get the books. And
I can assure you, like kids don't act anything, and
you can't fall a kid. Either they're either going to
reject it or they're going to embrace it. There's nothing
in between. And they love getting their books and they
(08:35):
love reading.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I wonder if it is that the idea of it's
their book rather than a textbook or a library book,
it's actually something that they're going to be taken home.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Well, we deliberately planned it that way. It was about
them choosing the book. Obviously, the little ones, the five
and six year olds, seven year olds, maybe they don't
choose their own, but the teachers help them. But number one,
they choose it. Number two, they own it. And every
(09:04):
single book that we give out, which is seven hundred
thousand a year, has a sticky label and inside that
says this book belongs to Jason Jupayo or or you know,
Sully Moore or whatever, and it's important to them to
(09:26):
see their name and this belongs to them. The other
thing is that it's brand new. When I first thought
of the idea that, you know, I turned up with
a trailer full of donated books from the readers of
my newspaper column in Hawk's Bay, and the kids just
(09:48):
didn't want to know. And I said to the principle,
what's the problem. And he said, everything they get in
life is secondhand or third hand, and you're just giving
them something that's been used and it's not magic to them.
And so that was quite a revelation, and so giving
(10:09):
them a brand new book was so obviously it's about
choice as well, brand new, the magic of being brand new,
and and ownership.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, if you've been doing it for thirty years and
you're giving away seven hundred thousand books a year, that's
a lot of books. Do you get many stories back
about what sort of impact it's had.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, your countless stories, you know, right from from gang
members coming up to me in a supermarket or wherever,
in a car, you know, car park and you know,
me sort of thinking they're going to give me a
biff around the years or something, and then them saying
thank you for the books. Burrow, Yeah, you know, for
(10:52):
our for our kids, or for our nephews and nieces
and so yep to you know the soul Meo group
who had dinner with I think a couple of years ago,
and it was just the most emotional time, you know,
they were we were all a bit tearful, and because
(11:15):
they said it was books that the Duffy books that
had inspired or made them realize there's a bigger world
out there and why should they grow up to go
and work in a factory or something. And they knew
they could all sing yep, and they decide, well we can,
we can be somebody. So yeah, we've got countless stories
(11:36):
like that. We've got the original school that we started
the programming. They had no university graduates, no, no, no,
nobody with the tertiary education zero. And then you know
then we were using graduates from university and from the
(11:56):
teacher's Training college to go back to that school as
role models. So yeah, it has made a difference. We
wish that it had made more of a difference.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But okay, it is a difference. Though it is a difference.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
If you've just joined us, my guest to Night's author
Alan duff who, as well as showing us bits about
new Zealand that maybe make us uncomfortable. He's also making
a real big difference in helping kids get ahead and
have a bigger view of the world. I'll be talking
more with Alan Duff about what he's up to and
the things that have been important in his world. This
(12:29):
is real life on News Talk sed.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
B, Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
News Talk ZEDB, not.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Love and he and welcome back to real life.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm talking to Alan Duff and he's picked that song
and that's a voice I haven't heard for a long time.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, I mean I first saw her on Black and
White TV when I was eleven.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Mahalia Jackson, I can remember those shows could be similar vintage,
and I remember they used to use little clips of
Mahalia Jackson to sort of fill gaps and things, and
they had to show Mahalia Jackson.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Say yeah, and they really should have shown her driving
around in her roles voice, you know, because she was
absolute super star.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
But now, if that's something that you heard that long
ago and you're still wanting to select it now, it
must have made an impact on you.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Well, I was listening to her this morning. Yeah, so,
and I was listening to Ray Charles and Willie Nelson singing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, so music's a big thing, huge.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Huge, Yeah, I'm obsessed, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Now, Ellen, you come from you are in New Zealand.
You've got a Mari heritage, and you've got a parking
Our heritage. And you've written about aspects of how some
of your upbringing damaged you. But you passed through different
homes and had different influences and things like this. Some
of it was negative, some of though was positive. What
(14:10):
the and you've come to an appreciation of different things.
What is something that you respect and appreciate about the
Mari aspect of your identity?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Well, I wouldn't be here it wasn't for the for
the mighty aspect. They had a huge influence on me,
and you know, musically, sporting, wise, community. I'm not known
as a man who can tell a joke, but I
love the humor. I love being being Mary. But I
(14:47):
do not want any cultural ah Tulliban like person Mary
coming along telling me exactly what defines a Mary effing Well,
just decide that for myself. And I'm not having a
You think that happens, of course it happens. It happens,
(15:08):
and if you don't tick the boxes, then they don't
consider you one of them. How dare they?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Okay, so you get pushed back on some of the
by MARII on some of the things.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You've said very yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Not much, no, okay, initially yes, yes, okay, PEPs, I've
just realized, oh yes, actually maybe you're right.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And how about you grew up not really realizing about race.
I think you said until you got to school and
everything like this, and then you went to live with
parking Our families as well, and yeah, so what's something
from say parking Our culture that you've appreciated as well
that have sort of augmented what you got from your
(15:52):
Mari side.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well, when I know, we used to go down to
my granddad's on the paternal side, and what we got
was everything was peaceful, There was no there was nobody
got ever got drunk. There were books, although you know
we had books because dad was educated. But it was
(16:13):
the peace and the and how civilized and how kind
and warm they were. It was my mighty side they were.
They were kind and warm, but when the when the
drinking started, then they would cut up rough.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Your granddad, I think he founded the Listener, didn't.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
He That's the founding editor.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Founding editor. That's quite a heritage to have. And yeah, that's.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
That's that's why I boas about my writing. It was
just a genetic bit of luck.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Really, you don't claim to be a leader within Mariadam,
but you're a voice that they listened to.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
No, I don't know. I know, I don't know that
they listened to me. Maybe maybe at grassroots level they
do listen to me, but certainly the leaders don't. And no,
I'm not a leader. I'm not not interested in being Okay,
a leader. I might be a leader of thinking.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Well that's leadership, yeah, I mean if you can create it,
but I'm not you know, you don't see it as
a leader. But not seeking power or control at all,
but to influence. And what would be some of the
biggest influences if your voice could be heard more widely
and it is heard widely, but what would be some
of the biggest influences within the Maori community?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You'd like to see?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Uh, love your children?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Forget this whole this worship of violence. And I know
I used to worship myself and I worshiped that the
wrong alter and I just was just like all my
cousins and my mighty mates, we all just thought, you know,
fighting and all that was cool. And it's just the biggest,
(18:01):
most destructive outlook that you can possibly have. And that's
one of the things that I wish I could change.
And of course education, education, education, and then that will stop.
And it's tracks all of that. All the narrative about poverty,
it's just nonsense. All this stuff that they the narrative
(18:24):
has become just so bad. You know, it's a bit like,
you know, they're all talking about the how the state
care and that, you know, that's the shame of the country,
you know, because of all of these kids that went
through that system. Well I went through it and you know,
at boys Home and Basul, so you know, I'm the
(18:48):
I'm the real deal. But you know, of course I've
got you know, a couple of times the screws beat
me out. But so so.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
What, okay, didn't traumatize me, right? So are you saying
to a cry baby? Do you say making people feel
like victims makes them sort of stall on their progress.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
The entire victim mentality is in written with its own
doom because it says somebody else is responsible for me,
for the state or the condition I'm in, and therefore
until that whoever I am laying the blame on comes
along and fixes it, I will forever remain the victim
(19:34):
instead of just saying there's got to be another way.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I mean, I've heard you talk about people having a
loser mindset. Is as part of this idea of because
of who I am, because of what's happened to me,
because of where I come from, I am automatically therefore,
irrevocably a loser.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yeah, and you know the message that we give the kids.
You know, we're going one hundred thousand kids on the
Duffy Books program. We always tell them that it's cool
to aspire, and it's cool to read and you know,
all these positive things, and it's cool to love, you know,
because children need, you know that before anything else, they
(20:14):
need to be loved and encouraged and not hit and
not put down, not discouraged. Not that you've got it.
You've got a little potential sitting there. When I walked
into this office, there was a lovely young woman with
a little baby there, and that that life needs to
(20:35):
be nourished yes, and it is not nourished. If you are,
you're going to be violent or you're going to be
verbally abusive.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, I'm encouraged that people can change. I'm encouraged that
cultures can change. And I think you know, we've both
lived long enough to actually see some positive changes. There's
probably a lot more both pakihan mari, you know, turning
away from violence and turning to education. Do you think
that am I being too polyannerish? Am I being too optimistic?
(21:12):
Or do you think there's the grounds to be optimistic.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
I've got to know, I'm getting increasing concerns.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Increasing concerns.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yes, I just think there's a sector, and I want
to emphasize a sector of.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Marridam that it's a stubborn problem.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
And they're not going they're not getting anywhere, okay, and
you know the reason that or one of them, not
the reasons. But in the book Once the Warriors, I
had Beth watching a soap with her bottle of beer there,
and then she suddenly realized, you know, all the houses,
(21:53):
you know, it was set in America, they've all got
you know, bookshelves loaded with books.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Obviously.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Then she got up and then she started going from
room to room in her house, and she came back
and she sat down. She said, it was like one
of Jake's punches. We're bookless. We're a bookless society, and
none of us is going anywhere. And so that's where
the books and homes idea came from. It was it
(22:23):
was me unknowingly writing something about that thing, and then
it happening to grow and getting lucky and meeting Bruce
Prested and getting the remain threat in there in Christine
Fernie Hoe and all a whole heap of other figures.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Okay, well, definitely a good idea. I can remember reading
research years ago. But the number of books in a
home determines how how well a kid will do in life.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And so you're totally totally you know.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And it's it's when you get evidence like that and
you and you and you don't take it on board,
then you must be either some you're either a fool
or you are the person who who can't possibly know
what they don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Well, I'd like to congratulate you on congratulate me.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Just congratulate all of us.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Okay, I'll congratulate all the people that are making a
difference and helping culture get better. And I still stay
an optimist because one hundred years ago there was a
Maori family, absolute train wreck, in trouble, the girls going
into prostitution, boys going into jail. One of the girls
from that family married my grandfather, and my dad was
raised an absolute chaos, and he grew into a good man.
(23:36):
I remember my dad and I honor him as being
a great dad. And so maybe it takes a generation,
but the generations go by and thinks, I believe can
get better. So I'm just so grateful to the good
influences he had and the good influences that you're making
in people's lives. So thank you, Ellen for taking the
time to speak to us.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Let's go out on another song that you've chosen. It's
an interesting song.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
What is it? It's the drifters singing up on the
roof and it is a magnificent song and that and
we all used to sing that, you know, in our
rugby club rooms and Walker and Rot. You know, when
you hear two hundred mighties all singing that together and harmonizing,
(24:20):
it is just the most wonderful, memorable thing. And I'm
sure your listeners will agree with that when they hear it.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I'm sure they love the song.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
They may not have the same memories that you've got
when you're listening to it, but it's a lovely song too,
Ellen Duff, thank you so much for taking time to
be on real life.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Thank you, guys's trouble.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And will start getting down.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
A ball.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
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