May 18, 2025 • 23 mins
Andrew Little was born in New Plymouth in 1965 and attended New Plymouth Boys' High School. He started working young—his first job was digging trenches for a methanol plant as part of the “Think Big” project. He later worked in timber yards and security before heading to Victoria University of Wellington to study law, philosophy, and public policy.
At university, Andrew became active in student politics, campaigning against the student loan scheme. He was elected president of both the university's student association and the national student union. After graduating, he worked as a lawyer for the Engineers' Union, eventually becoming its national secretary. He played a major role in workplace and ACC issues and became a leading voice in the Labour movement.
Andrew went on to serve as President of the New Zealand Labour Party and was a key link between the party and unions. A long-time Island Bay resident, he’s running for Mayor of Wellington—bringing with him decades of leadership and a strong background in public advocacy and workers’ rights.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Gooday, and welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen and
my guest tonight is the Honorable Andrew Little, the former
leader of the Labor Party who served in a dozen
ministerial roles in the last Labor government. And he resigned
from politics after the last general election. And interestingly he
can still keep his title the Honorable Andrew Little because
he served in the Executive Council. But after a couple
(00:55):
of years back in a legal practice, he's thrown his
hat in the ring for the Wellington mayoralty. Welcome Andrew, John, Okay,
why have you decided to become a mayor of Wellington.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Look?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I was asked about it last year and I said no,
and a local government wasn't something I was particularly interested in.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I was enjoying being back in law practice.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Then having been asked, I sort of paid close attention
to what was going on, started developing my own concerns
and then earlier this year I just had a crescendo
of people approaching me from right across that political respectrum
to say that we need somebody would you consider doing it?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
And then when I thought about it, much.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
As I enjoy the law and what that does and
helping people, what I also thought was that it is
in stet of fixing problems one by one, person by person,
whereas I think a lot of my background had been
involved in trying to fix problems at a more.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Systemic sort of basis.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And seeing the challenge and the Wellington City councilors, I
think there is I thought, I do have skills, I
do have something to offer, and in the end sort
of persuaded myself, with the help of a few others,
to put my head in the ring.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
After a dozen years in Parliament and half of that
in government. Is there? Is it going to be interesting
enough for you? Do you think the tangle, the tangle
of politics around the Wellington council table is going to
be intriguing?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, look, I think it will be.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I would I wouldn't have done if I didn't think
there was a real challenge that was there and that
would utilize my skills. But it'll be different, I think.
I mean Parliament is very you know you do. You
have your distinct parties in the party discipline that goes
with that. It's not the same at the local government level.
And if I'm elected as mayor, my job is to
is to knit the whole council together. Once again, I
(02:49):
think I'm confident I'm capable of doing. The way I
approached my role, particularly as a minister, was to reach
across the IB and I needed to and work with people.
I got that actually from my time as a union secretary.
As a union leader, you've got to deal with a
variety of different people. But in the end what you're
doing is in the negotiating solutions with employers and you've
(03:11):
got to deal with people.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Regardless of differences of view.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do you think that's a skill that's been lacking in
the Wellington Council chamber. There seems to have been polarizations
and splits and factions, and even within the factions there's
been split So you think some of that cross party interactions,
being able to talk cross groups will be something that
will help things to function.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I think the other thing too, it's okay that there
are different views being expressed around the council table, and
we should expect that different people get elected. You want
people with different perspectives. The main thing is making sure
that those differences in views in the end lead to
a good solution that everybody can get behind and people
stick with the decisions that get made.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah. Look, I might be a bit pessimistic, but I
think there's almost like a global tendency now do only
listen to the people you agree with, And I think
social media algorithms amplify that so that you get amplified, polarized,
extreme positions. And it seems almost like a shift in
the I don't know what you call it, the flavor
(04:21):
of the age. Almost do you fear that as well?
But people are becoming less, like, less willing to listen
to different points of view.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, I just definitely think there is something in there,
And I do think social media has a lot to play,
or has had a big role to playing that. I
think we have become sort of directed to our own
little echo chambers and people who agree with us, or
people who we find agreeable.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I think.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I mean, I've always taken the view that it's always
good to know what people who disagree with you are
saying if I need to test your own arguments and
be sure about the ground that you stand on, I
like I stay away from social media mainly now. It's
not an air I find particularly sort of elucidating or helpful.
I rather and I prefer it to talk to people
(05:06):
who disagree with then have a good discussion about it.
That's much more constructive. But I do worry in terms
of the point you make that things aren't getting more
polarized and it doesn't need to be politics. Politics is
about contests of ideas and disagreement, but it's not about
kind of shattering norms and making it hard for people.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Can you actually remember specific instances of where you've had
to work with people of radically different points of view
ideologies and had to meet some middle find some middle ground.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah, well that's the same in the Union movement. You're
doing that all the time.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
You know, there's some pomacy parliament and in parliament, I mean,
I will remember when it was after the referendum, an
end of life choice. The referendum was successful. It was
a piece of work by David Seymour and the party. Actually,
Brook van Velden had a big role to play it
before she was an MP.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Then when she was elected and I became.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
The Health Minister, I had the job of implementing it,
and I I made them part. I reached out to
them straight away, I said, you know how involved you
want to be? They wanted to be kept in touch.
They didn't necessarily want to be involved in a lot
of the detailed decision making, but I keep them in
touch very much along the way because I thought they
had a big stake in it and it would be
(06:25):
useful for them to be in touch with what was happening.
So that's that's an example of putting the differences aside
and focusing on getting decisions made that had to be made.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Now, your labor to your core. And is there a
risk that you could be seen as becoming ideologically impure
if you're compromising too much, especially with people on the
very right of the spectrum. Do you have to keep
on looking back out of your shoulders to see what
supporters are thinking of your stand? Well?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I think you are aways conscious of that.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
But equally, you know the times when as a minister
I had to go back to the Labor Party organization
and say, look that the party policy on this just
isn't going to work and we need to have a change.
So I to negotiate that with them, and so that
to allow me to kind of progress what I thought
was in the best interests of New Zealand generally as
(07:14):
opposed to just you know, people who support the Labor Party.
I think the main thing is that you keep it
open and keep those communication channels open so everybody knows
what you're doing, and if it does need to be
a change, just go and say that, say you know what,
this just isn't working and we need to do something different.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So you're standing as the Labor candidate for the Wellington muroralty,
would you want to bring in the whole slate of
Labor counselors as well, so that they do think along
the same lines as you or do you actually relish
the idea of having a few counter ideas around the table.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I think it's important that there's a range of different
ideas and people from different backgrounds. So look, Labor has
a slate of candidates, but that there's not enough candidates
to fill every slot around the council table, and I
think it would be wrong for that to happen, and
so there will be there'll be counselors. You know, they'll
independent counselors, but councilors. You know, with some I think
it's pretty clear political leanings. I don't worry about that.
(08:16):
In fact, many of them I've reached out or they've
reached out to me in the last few weeks anyway,
and I've get to meet anybody who I don't think
I can work with effectively if I'm elected as mayor.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, after the break, I want to talk to you
about where you got your political ideas and some of
the things and instances and people that shape your ideas.
But if you were to become Wellington's mayor, what are
some of the big things that you'd like to change?
Some of the perhaps up around assets, sales or retention
of facilities. I know that you've spoken about these things.
(08:50):
What's what's in your top list of trying to achieve.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, there are some big issues, and that you know
that we know all about the pipes and ward and
all the rest of it.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
One of priores I've.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Given is about keeping community facilities because I think you know,
in a city like ours, we're made up of suburbs.
Those community facilities in the suburbs, things like libraries, swimming pools,
community centers, that those become anchor points in those communities
and help strengthen those communities. So that's really important for me.
I do see a counsel at the moment that seems
to be deprioritizing those things because we've got some big
(09:23):
cost costly items like the town hall upgrade that still
have to be paid for. But I do think there's
a bit of a reprioritization. The biggest thing I think,
and this is what I get. I've spoken to so
many people in the last few weeks, community leaders, business
leaders and others to say the big problem they have
is just engaging with the counseling and the council being
(09:44):
open to alternatives or different ideas. And I think so.
I think there's a culture changes who required inside counsel
But I think the mayor has to play a big
role in leading. Obviously there's a chief executive and there's
the rest of council critical to that as well. But
we need residents of willing to need to know that
if they are engaged with the council, the counselor is
(10:05):
going to not just listen.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
To them, but consider seriously what they have to say.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
If you've just tuned in, My guest tonight is the
honorable Andrew Little, and we've been talking about his Tilted
the Merialty of Wellington. After the break, I want to
talk about how do you make and Andrew Little? What
are the things that have shaped him? What are the
things that have created his beliefs and ideas and values.
I'm John Cowen. This is real life. You're listening to
(10:29):
News Talk ZEDB back with you in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talk ZEDBLGY.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Oh it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Is Welcome back to real life. I'm John cown talking
with Andrew Little? Who picked that song for us to
listen to. I get so much musical education on this
program as well. What are we listening to there, Andrew?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It's a song by artists called Amy Wadg and the
Songs that It's the soundtrack to an amazing series that
my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed on Netflix last year
called Keeping Faith, and it was just about a woman
who was going through a relationship breakdown. She was a
lawyer and had some major challenges at work as well.
(11:30):
And what have you, and she was incredibly resilient and
sort of got through. It wasn't necessarily about a religious
faith at all, but it was just about the way
she got through it can't. I mean, two things were
There was a time when I had more time and
was spending more time with my wife, which was just amazing,
and we were enjoying just spending time together watching interesting things.
(11:54):
But it also coincided in my professional life with a
couple of cases I was doing which involved I think,
incredibly strong, resilient women who were dealing with some pretty
serious challenges and just it's the song just reminds me
particularly of those people because I just know what they
were going through and just how they conducted themselves against
(12:17):
some pretty serious arts.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's amazing how people can handle stuff that. I just think,
how do they go through that? And you've had some
a lot of pressure and stress, I guess, and the
roles that you've had. What gives you resilience? Where do
you recharge? What's your backstop in life?
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I think, I mean having a really strong family and
my wife and my son and my brothers and sisters
have been just an incredible support to me. I'm the
sort of person to have. In terms of close friends,
I don't. I have a small number of close friends.
I have a lot of friends, but a small number
of close friends and very really important to me as well.
(12:56):
And often they each play it of a different role.
But I have places, you know, when things do get tough,
places I can go to talk and what it's about,
and as people who will engage and and just to
help taught me through things. And often you know, I'm
like anybody, you have moments of self doubt, moments when
(13:19):
you just need to be reassured that you're thinking things
through carefully, you're taking account of all the issues.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
And I'm I feel fortunate.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
That I've got some amazing people in my life who
help me to do that. And that's really important in
terms of I mean, the other thing is there's the
physical stuff. I'm a mountain biker bike kind of habit.
I try to get out most weekends that doing those
physical things. I love getting in the gardeners thing that
my wife and I sort of have found the last
eighty months we enjoyed doing together doing those things as well.
(13:50):
Just and keeping physically well as important too.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think in the lifestyle of a politician. Can you
actually get out on your bike? Can you actually do
the gardening. I mean you've mentioned your wife and you
and your son. Is political life conducive to a good
family life?
Speaker 4 (14:09):
I think it does come down to the choices you
make and the priorities. It is pretty challenging because the
role is demanding. I think it's lucky I live in
Wellington and so I'm not going to travel overnight or
travel to Wellington and stay overnight a lot, so I
get to come home at the end of most days
and be there at the beginning of the day. But
I you know, for me, it's about you make time
(14:31):
for the important things. So you make time for family,
You make time to do those things that are good
for you, good for your health as well. So it
comes down to you know, the choices that you make
and the priorities that you have.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Do you consciously try and deflect things away from Lee
and your son? Do you if you made have ever
had to make choices to protect them from some of
the things that might be coming your way As a
public person.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, I always let them know if there's something coming
up with someone that's likely to be controversial. I mean
they said anyway, but I know that you know, my
son when he was at school, he had an amazing
circle of friends actually, and a good school to school
was used to having the children of politicians there, so
the teachers were really good, so you know, he had
(15:23):
some good networks around, and likewise, my wife got some
good friends. So I think the hard butits were when
there were security threats and they're worried. There were a
couple of quite serious ones where there were threats made
about me and people coming to my home and we
had to take some measures, even if on a temporary basis.
That gets a bit hard because you feel responsible, but
(15:44):
you feel powerless to do a great deal about it,
and that you seem to get conscious of that.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That would be very scary, I imagine. Yeah, I believe
that as a youngster you distributed leaflets for the National
Party and that your dad would fume at the TV
have trade unionists came on. So you're not in some
sort of long attracted at leastent rebellion against your own parents.
So I'm just interested to know how you grew up
(16:13):
in a national family and became so ardently labor.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah. No, I think that's and I reflect on that often,
and you're right.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
My first political act was delivering Leaf in nineteen seventy
five election for the National Party candidate. My father was
very staunched National members in the local committee, but he
I think it came to like a lot of New
Zealanders and a lot of New Zealand households.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It all came to a head in nineteen eighty one
in the Spring Bok tour.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
My oldest sister, she was at university at the time,
and she would come home to New Plymouth and there'd
be the inevitable discussions and then become disagreements and arguments.
And I thought then, actually, I didn't think my father
argued particularly well. He was very firm in his views
and his convictions, but I don't think he necessarily defended
(17:00):
them particularly well. I mean, my father was swainy mixed
because he was conservative in that respect, but he also
didn't have strains of independence. Thought he was in His
first kind of career was as an army officer in
the British Army, and he had a posting in the
Middle East in the nineteen fifties and he developed a
very strong sort of entity for the Palestinian community, and
(17:24):
so he was very concerned about, well, no, the way
the Palestinians were treated, and that became a big course
sort of for him that he followed through the rest
of his life, which put him at odds with many
of his fellow National Party people. So my father was
always capable of his own sort of independent thought. But
(17:48):
any what I thought was, I didn't think he explained
his political views protectarly well. And I was around a
bunch of other people and sort of went off in
a different direction, and then it sort of got reaffirmed
to me as I sort of went through life.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Right, if you were, you know, stuck in an elevator
for a short period of time with someone and someone
asks you, you know, how would you explain what your
progressive left wing values swing around as opposed to apps
some more conservative right wing views. What what are the
key values key differences.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
I think the main thing is that everybody, regardless of
who they are, and you know, and we are all different,
and we have different things, and some things you know,
prevent us proving everybody doing doing the same things. But
I think for everybody, regardless of who they are, have
the best chance at.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
The best life for themselves.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
And then following that, I say that the state does
have a role to play to ensure to the best
extent that that is possible.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
So those things that.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Give greater chance of equality of opportunity, which is why
you know public education system is so important, and why
the public health system is so important. Those are the
things that are very leveling and and things out and
so regardless of the background you come from, if you've
got access to those things, that can set you up
(19:15):
for a great life, to allow you to make your
own choices and go your own way, regardless of your origins.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Okay, I've heard you say that behind every political decision
there are values, And I'm just wondering if you if
there's a label that you had put on your values.
I mean, you studied philosophy at university. Would you describe
yourself as a humanist or what was there a better label?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:40):
I think that's that's a good start for me. It
is about people and the dignity of people. And and
again that that thing about people being able to feeling
free to make their choices and be who they are.
The only other thing I'd say is that because there's
(20:01):
not just one person in the world as eight billion,
and we have to organize, organize ourselves in a way
we aren't we aren't alone, and we do have responsibilities
to each other.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
And so as well as doing what we can.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
To make the best of our life for ourselves, we've
also got to respect the right of others to do
that and not diminish or demean or put down, or
marginalize or alienate. So those things are important to it,
you know, and understanding we all have different contributions to make.
You know, we want we want the owners of the
(20:37):
factors of production. We want the investors, we want the
people who are risk takers. That's great, and they should
be rewarded for what they do. We've just got to
make sure that that doesn't become a reason or an
excuse to explot others and treat people unreasonably and unnecessarily.
So it's getting those things, getting the balance of those
things correct. Ultimately, it comes down to preserving the dignity
(21:00):
of the individual.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Okay, it's interesting that I've heard you talk so positively
about businesses needing to be encourage entrepreneurs allowed to flourish
and to be able to keep their rewards and that
that sounds almost like a little bit at odds, or
say the old plank of a labor party of keeping
(21:22):
you know, the sources of production. Do you find yourself
sometimes ideologically at odds with your labor party colleagues.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I think there's there's some pretty healthy discussions inside the
labor party at the best times. That's, you know, that's
what should happen in side political parties. But I get
that from, you know, from my time, you know, working
in the union, and I was there for nearly twenty years,
and I look around in a lot of a lot
of the a lot of the best workplace leaders. I
dealt with the union delegatecy we call them, particularly, you
(21:55):
know that the trades qualified workers, a lot of them
were keen to get off and set up their own
business and do their own thing, which I thought was
great and they should be encouraged to do that. And equally,
you know a lot of the business owners I dealt with,
the managers, chief executives and stuff. We're pretty we're pretty
responsible people. A lot of union members would say to me,
(22:17):
you know, yes, they want decent pain in the best
way they can get, and all these sorts of things
but what was really what they most wanted was to
be in a workplace where they felt safe. Obviously that
but also felt as if they had a good purpose,
and that was now the role of management was to
make sure that everybody understood what the business was about
what they were doing. People want to feel good about
(22:38):
what they're doing in the in the work environment they've got.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Andrew, We've got to cut you off there because we're
running up into the news. But it's been great talking
with you, and thank you so much for making time
to be on Real Life.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Nice nice to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But just before we go, what's this final song we're
listening to? It sounds like Hunters and Collectors? What is it?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Oh, You're throw off? That's my wife and I when
we got to get out. When we were first going out.
This was our kind of theme song, the fantastic. Thank
you so much, Entry, John. This is Real Life on
News Talk. Se'd be back with you again next time
day night.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
For more from Used talkst B, listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Gooday, and welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen and
my guest tonight is the Honorable Andrew Little, the former
leader of the Labor Party who served in a dozen
ministerial roles in the last Labor government. And he resigned
from politics after the last general election. And interestingly he
can still keep his title the Honorable Andrew Little because
he served in the Executive Council. But after a couple
(00:55):
of years back in a legal practice, he's thrown his
hat in the ring for the Wellington mayoralty. Welcome Andrew, John, Okay,
why have you decided to become a mayor of Wellington.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Look?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I was asked about it last year and I said no,
and a local government wasn't something I was particularly interested in.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I was enjoying being back in law practice.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Then having been asked, I sort of paid close attention
to what was going on, started developing my own concerns
and then earlier this year I just had a crescendo
of people approaching me from right across that political respectrum
to say that we need somebody would you consider doing it?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
And then when I thought about it, much.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
As I enjoy the law and what that does and
helping people, what I also thought was that it is
in stet of fixing problems one by one, person by person,
whereas I think a lot of my background had been
involved in trying to fix problems at a more.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Systemic sort of basis.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And seeing the challenge and the Wellington City councilors, I
think there is I thought, I do have skills, I
do have something to offer, and in the end sort
of persuaded myself, with the help of a few others,
to put my head in the ring.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
After a dozen years in Parliament and half of that
in government. Is there? Is it going to be interesting
enough for you? Do you think the tangle, the tangle
of politics around the Wellington council table is going to
be intriguing?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, look, I think it will be.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I would I wouldn't have done if I didn't think
there was a real challenge that was there and that
would utilize my skills. But it'll be different, I think.
I mean Parliament is very you know you do. You
have your distinct parties in the party discipline that goes
with that. It's not the same at the local government level.
And if I'm elected as mayor, my job is to
is to knit the whole council together. Once again, I
(02:49):
think I'm confident I'm capable of doing. The way I
approached my role, particularly as a minister, was to reach
across the IB and I needed to and work with people.
I got that actually from my time as a union secretary.
As a union leader, you've got to deal with a
variety of different people. But in the end what you're
doing is in the negotiating solutions with employers and you've
(03:11):
got to deal with people.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Regardless of differences of view.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do you think that's a skill that's been lacking in
the Wellington Council chamber. There seems to have been polarizations
and splits and factions, and even within the factions there's
been split So you think some of that cross party interactions,
being able to talk cross groups will be something that
will help things to function.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I think the other thing too, it's okay that there
are different views being expressed around the council table, and
we should expect that different people get elected. You want
people with different perspectives. The main thing is making sure
that those differences in views in the end lead to
a good solution that everybody can get behind and people
stick with the decisions that get made.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah. Look, I might be a bit pessimistic, but I
think there's almost like a global tendency now do only
listen to the people you agree with, And I think
social media algorithms amplify that so that you get amplified, polarized,
extreme positions. And it seems almost like a shift in
the I don't know what you call it, the flavor
(04:21):
of the age. Almost do you fear that as well?
But people are becoming less, like, less willing to listen
to different points of view.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, I just definitely think there is something in there,
And I do think social media has a lot to play,
or has had a big role to playing that. I
think we have become sort of directed to our own
little echo chambers and people who agree with us, or
people who we find agreeable.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I think.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I mean, I've always taken the view that it's always
good to know what people who disagree with you are
saying if I need to test your own arguments and
be sure about the ground that you stand on, I
like I stay away from social media mainly now. It's
not an air I find particularly sort of elucidating or helpful.
I rather and I prefer it to talk to people
(05:06):
who disagree with then have a good discussion about it.
That's much more constructive. But I do worry in terms
of the point you make that things aren't getting more
polarized and it doesn't need to be politics. Politics is
about contests of ideas and disagreement, but it's not about
kind of shattering norms and making it hard for people.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Can you actually remember specific instances of where you've had
to work with people of radically different points of view
ideologies and had to meet some middle find some middle ground.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah, well that's the same in the Union movement. You're
doing that all the time.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
You know, there's some pomacy parliament and in parliament, I mean,
I will remember when it was after the referendum, an
end of life choice. The referendum was successful. It was
a piece of work by David Seymour and the party. Actually,
Brook van Velden had a big role to play it
before she was an MP.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Then when she was elected and I became.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
The Health Minister, I had the job of implementing it,
and I I made them part. I reached out to
them straight away, I said, you know how involved you
want to be? They wanted to be kept in touch.
They didn't necessarily want to be involved in a lot
of the detailed decision making, but I keep them in
touch very much along the way because I thought they
had a big stake in it and it would be
(06:25):
useful for them to be in touch with what was happening.
So that's that's an example of putting the differences aside
and focusing on getting decisions made that had to be made.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Now, your labor to your core. And is there a
risk that you could be seen as becoming ideologically impure
if you're compromising too much, especially with people on the
very right of the spectrum. Do you have to keep
on looking back out of your shoulders to see what
supporters are thinking of your stand? Well?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I think you are aways conscious of that.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
But equally, you know the times when as a minister
I had to go back to the Labor Party organization
and say, look that the party policy on this just
isn't going to work and we need to have a change.
So I to negotiate that with them, and so that
to allow me to kind of progress what I thought
was in the best interests of New Zealand generally as
(07:14):
opposed to just you know, people who support the Labor Party.
I think the main thing is that you keep it
open and keep those communication channels open so everybody knows
what you're doing, and if it does need to be
a change, just go and say that, say you know what,
this just isn't working and we need to do something different.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So you're standing as the Labor candidate for the Wellington muroralty,
would you want to bring in the whole slate of
Labor counselors as well, so that they do think along
the same lines as you or do you actually relish
the idea of having a few counter ideas around the table.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I think it's important that there's a range of different
ideas and people from different backgrounds. So look, Labor has
a slate of candidates, but that there's not enough candidates
to fill every slot around the council table, and I
think it would be wrong for that to happen, and
so there will be there'll be counselors. You know, they'll
independent counselors, but councilors. You know, with some I think
it's pretty clear political leanings. I don't worry about that.
(08:16):
In fact, many of them I've reached out or they've
reached out to me in the last few weeks anyway,
and I've get to meet anybody who I don't think
I can work with effectively if I'm elected as mayor.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, after the break, I want to talk to you
about where you got your political ideas and some of
the things and instances and people that shape your ideas.
But if you were to become Wellington's mayor, what are
some of the big things that you'd like to change?
Some of the perhaps up around assets, sales or retention
of facilities. I know that you've spoken about these things.
(08:50):
What's what's in your top list of trying to achieve.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, there are some big issues, and that you know
that we know all about the pipes and ward and
all the rest of it.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
One of priores I've.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Given is about keeping community facilities because I think you know,
in a city like ours, we're made up of suburbs.
Those community facilities in the suburbs, things like libraries, swimming pools,
community centers, that those become anchor points in those communities
and help strengthen those communities. So that's really important for me.
I do see a counsel at the moment that seems
to be deprioritizing those things because we've got some big
(09:23):
cost costly items like the town hall upgrade that still
have to be paid for. But I do think there's
a bit of a reprioritization. The biggest thing I think,
and this is what I get. I've spoken to so
many people in the last few weeks, community leaders, business
leaders and others to say the big problem they have
is just engaging with the counseling and the council being
(09:44):
open to alternatives or different ideas. And I think so.
I think there's a culture changes who required inside counsel
But I think the mayor has to play a big
role in leading. Obviously there's a chief executive and there's
the rest of council critical to that as well. But
we need residents of willing to need to know that
if they are engaged with the council, the counselor is
(10:05):
going to not just listen.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
To them, but consider seriously what they have to say.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
If you've just tuned in, My guest tonight is the
honorable Andrew Little, and we've been talking about his Tilted
the Merialty of Wellington. After the break, I want to
talk about how do you make and Andrew Little? What
are the things that have shaped him? What are the
things that have created his beliefs and ideas and values.
I'm John Cowen. This is real life. You're listening to
(10:29):
News Talk ZEDB back with you in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talk ZEDBLGY.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Oh it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Is Welcome back to real life. I'm John cown talking
with Andrew Little? Who picked that song for us to
listen to. I get so much musical education on this
program as well. What are we listening to there, Andrew?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It's a song by artists called Amy Wadg and the
Songs that It's the soundtrack to an amazing series that
my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed on Netflix last year
called Keeping Faith, and it was just about a woman
who was going through a relationship breakdown. She was a
lawyer and had some major challenges at work as well.
(11:30):
And what have you, and she was incredibly resilient and
sort of got through. It wasn't necessarily about a religious
faith at all, but it was just about the way
she got through it can't. I mean, two things were
There was a time when I had more time and
was spending more time with my wife, which was just amazing,
and we were enjoying just spending time together watching interesting things.
(11:54):
But it also coincided in my professional life with a
couple of cases I was doing which involved I think,
incredibly strong, resilient women who were dealing with some pretty
serious challenges and just it's the song just reminds me
particularly of those people because I just know what they
were going through and just how they conducted themselves against
(12:17):
some pretty serious arts.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's amazing how people can handle stuff that. I just think,
how do they go through that? And you've had some
a lot of pressure and stress, I guess, and the
roles that you've had. What gives you resilience? Where do
you recharge? What's your backstop in life?
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I think, I mean having a really strong family and
my wife and my son and my brothers and sisters
have been just an incredible support to me. I'm the
sort of person to have. In terms of close friends,
I don't. I have a small number of close friends.
I have a lot of friends, but a small number
of close friends and very really important to me as well.
(12:56):
And often they each play it of a different role.
But I have places, you know, when things do get tough,
places I can go to talk and what it's about,
and as people who will engage and and just to
help taught me through things. And often you know, I'm
like anybody, you have moments of self doubt, moments when
(13:19):
you just need to be reassured that you're thinking things
through carefully, you're taking account of all the issues.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
And I'm I feel fortunate.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
That I've got some amazing people in my life who
help me to do that. And that's really important in
terms of I mean, the other thing is there's the
physical stuff. I'm a mountain biker bike kind of habit.
I try to get out most weekends that doing those
physical things. I love getting in the gardeners thing that
my wife and I sort of have found the last
eighty months we enjoyed doing together doing those things as well.
(13:50):
Just and keeping physically well as important too.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think in the lifestyle of a politician. Can you
actually get out on your bike? Can you actually do
the gardening. I mean you've mentioned your wife and you
and your son. Is political life conducive to a good
family life?
Speaker 4 (14:09):
I think it does come down to the choices you
make and the priorities. It is pretty challenging because the
role is demanding. I think it's lucky I live in
Wellington and so I'm not going to travel overnight or
travel to Wellington and stay overnight a lot, so I
get to come home at the end of most days
and be there at the beginning of the day. But
I you know, for me, it's about you make time
(14:31):
for the important things. So you make time for family,
You make time to do those things that are good
for you, good for your health as well. So it
comes down to you know, the choices that you make
and the priorities that you have.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Do you consciously try and deflect things away from Lee
and your son? Do you if you made have ever
had to make choices to protect them from some of
the things that might be coming your way As a
public person.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, I always let them know if there's something coming
up with someone that's likely to be controversial. I mean
they said anyway, but I know that you know, my
son when he was at school, he had an amazing
circle of friends actually, and a good school to school
was used to having the children of politicians there, so
the teachers were really good, so you know, he had
(15:23):
some good networks around, and likewise, my wife got some
good friends. So I think the hard butits were when
there were security threats and they're worried. There were a
couple of quite serious ones where there were threats made
about me and people coming to my home and we
had to take some measures, even if on a temporary basis.
That gets a bit hard because you feel responsible, but
(15:44):
you feel powerless to do a great deal about it,
and that you seem to get conscious of that.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That would be very scary, I imagine. Yeah, I believe
that as a youngster you distributed leaflets for the National
Party and that your dad would fume at the TV
have trade unionists came on. So you're not in some
sort of long attracted at leastent rebellion against your own parents.
So I'm just interested to know how you grew up
(16:13):
in a national family and became so ardently labor.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah. No, I think that's and I reflect on that often,
and you're right.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
My first political act was delivering Leaf in nineteen seventy
five election for the National Party candidate. My father was
very staunched National members in the local committee, but he
I think it came to like a lot of New
Zealanders and a lot of New Zealand households.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It all came to a head in nineteen eighty one
in the Spring Bok tour.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
My oldest sister, she was at university at the time,
and she would come home to New Plymouth and there'd
be the inevitable discussions and then become disagreements and arguments.
And I thought then, actually, I didn't think my father
argued particularly well. He was very firm in his views
and his convictions, but I don't think he necessarily defended
(17:00):
them particularly well. I mean, my father was swainy mixed
because he was conservative in that respect, but he also
didn't have strains of independence. Thought he was in His
first kind of career was as an army officer in
the British Army, and he had a posting in the
Middle East in the nineteen fifties and he developed a
very strong sort of entity for the Palestinian community, and
(17:24):
so he was very concerned about, well, no, the way
the Palestinians were treated, and that became a big course
sort of for him that he followed through the rest
of his life, which put him at odds with many
of his fellow National Party people. So my father was
always capable of his own sort of independent thought. But
(17:48):
any what I thought was, I didn't think he explained
his political views protectarly well. And I was around a
bunch of other people and sort of went off in
a different direction, and then it sort of got reaffirmed
to me as I sort of went through life.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Right, if you were, you know, stuck in an elevator
for a short period of time with someone and someone
asks you, you know, how would you explain what your
progressive left wing values swing around as opposed to apps
some more conservative right wing views. What what are the
key values key differences.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
I think the main thing is that everybody, regardless of
who they are, and you know, and we are all different,
and we have different things, and some things you know,
prevent us proving everybody doing doing the same things. But
I think for everybody, regardless of who they are, have
the best chance at.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
The best life for themselves.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
And then following that, I say that the state does
have a role to play to ensure to the best
extent that that is possible.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
So those things that.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Give greater chance of equality of opportunity, which is why
you know public education system is so important, and why
the public health system is so important. Those are the
things that are very leveling and and things out and
so regardless of the background you come from, if you've
got access to those things, that can set you up
(19:15):
for a great life, to allow you to make your
own choices and go your own way, regardless of your origins.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Okay, I've heard you say that behind every political decision
there are values, And I'm just wondering if you if
there's a label that you had put on your values.
I mean, you studied philosophy at university. Would you describe
yourself as a humanist or what was there a better label?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:40):
I think that's that's a good start for me. It
is about people and the dignity of people. And and
again that that thing about people being able to feeling
free to make their choices and be who they are.
The only other thing I'd say is that because there's
(20:01):
not just one person in the world as eight billion,
and we have to organize, organize ourselves in a way
we aren't we aren't alone, and we do have responsibilities
to each other.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
And so as well as doing what we can.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
To make the best of our life for ourselves, we've
also got to respect the right of others to do
that and not diminish or demean or put down, or
marginalize or alienate. So those things are important to it,
you know, and understanding we all have different contributions to make.
You know, we want we want the owners of the
(20:37):
factors of production. We want the investors, we want the
people who are risk takers. That's great, and they should
be rewarded for what they do. We've just got to
make sure that that doesn't become a reason or an
excuse to explot others and treat people unreasonably and unnecessarily.
So it's getting those things, getting the balance of those
things correct. Ultimately, it comes down to preserving the dignity
(21:00):
of the individual.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Okay, it's interesting that I've heard you talk so positively
about businesses needing to be encourage entrepreneurs allowed to flourish
and to be able to keep their rewards and that
that sounds almost like a little bit at odds, or
say the old plank of a labor party of keeping
(21:22):
you know, the sources of production. Do you find yourself
sometimes ideologically at odds with your labor party colleagues.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I think there's there's some pretty healthy discussions inside the
labor party at the best times. That's, you know, that's
what should happen in side political parties. But I get
that from, you know, from my time, you know, working
in the union, and I was there for nearly twenty years,
and I look around in a lot of a lot
of the a lot of the best workplace leaders. I
dealt with the union delegatecy we call them, particularly, you
(21:55):
know that the trades qualified workers, a lot of them
were keen to get off and set up their own
business and do their own thing, which I thought was
great and they should be encouraged to do that. And equally,
you know a lot of the business owners I dealt with,
the managers, chief executives and stuff. We're pretty we're pretty
responsible people. A lot of union members would say to me,
(22:17):
you know, yes, they want decent pain in the best
way they can get, and all these sorts of things
but what was really what they most wanted was to
be in a workplace where they felt safe. Obviously that
but also felt as if they had a good purpose,
and that was now the role of management was to
make sure that everybody understood what the business was about
what they were doing. People want to feel good about
(22:38):
what they're doing in the in the work environment they've got.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Andrew, We've got to cut you off there because we're
running up into the news. But it's been great talking
with you, and thank you so much for making time
to be on Real Life.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Nice nice to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But just before we go, what's this final song we're
listening to? It sounds like Hunters and Collectors? What is it?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Oh, You're throw off? That's my wife and I when
we got to get out. When we were first going out.
This was our kind of theme song, the fantastic. Thank
you so much, Entry, John. This is Real Life on
News Talk. Se'd be back with you again next time
day night.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
For more from Used talkst B, listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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