August 24, 2025 • 24 mins
Author, literary advocte and founder of Verb Wellington, joined John on Real Life this week. Claire Mabey won the NZSA Best First Book at the recent New Zealand Book Awards for Children and Young Adults earlier in 2025, and spoke to John from the Edinburgh International Book Festival.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Joining me from Scotland is author and book editor for
the spin off Clear Maybe. Welcome, Claire.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Cut to John. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's lovely to talk to you, and it's nice to
know that the connection between New Zealand and Scotland is
clear enough for this conversation. But there's also another powerful
connection with Scotland and you've been part of it just recently.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
The Edinburgh International Book Festival is kind of a bit
of a home away from home for lots of New
Zealand writers and readers. I met quite a few New
Zealand readers there over the last few days and it's
always a real delight to be there. It's such a big,
hearty festival, and there was a specific kind of program
(01:06):
of New Zealand writers there this year which was really
lovely to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Now that strikes being. Initially has been a little bizarre
that in Edinburgh you'd have a festival of New Zealand writers,
that there's this what do they call it? A to
Elba festival? But how's that mean going down with Scottish
audiences Oh amazing.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
So that Alba was a specific event with Scottish poets
and New Zealand poets who actually came together. They met
each other in New Zealand at the Word christ Church
Festival and then again at the Verb Wellington Festival. So
it's been an ongoing relationship over ten years now, I think.
(01:49):
So the lineup was this beautiful lineup of Becky Manumitu
from New Zealand and Dominic Holley, and then we had
Michael Peterson from Scotland who's the Maca, who's kind of
like the poet Laureate of Edinburgh, and Holly mcnash who's
a brilliant writer and they The audience was rapturous and big.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That's something that should probably surprise people that people really
get a buzz out of these festivals. You've been organizing
festivals all over the place for more than a decade.
I don't know how when you started. Perhaps to ask
you about that a bit later, but did these New
Zealand poets and writers did they have to pull back
on their key winners? Did Scottish audiences get it?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Absolutely not? Like Becky man or two read from Katadina
her latest book, which is an extraordinary book, and she
was just herself and Dominic kvey a Game was just himself,
just as the Scottish poets that lots of their poetry
include scots which is unfamiliar for us. But I guess
(03:00):
in the same way that some Koboo Mardi might be
unfamiliar for Scotland. But Edinburgh is such a rich of
events from writers from all around the world, and it
celebrates that. It celebrates voices from everywhere, so no one
has to try and be Scottish or fit in. It's
just you're celebrated for bringing who you are. And the
(03:24):
audiences really love it, and I think it's such a buzz.
I love this festival. It's like a big party and
it's kind of amazing because it's situated within the festival months,
so there's the fringe Festival, the arts festival, the film festival,
all going on at the same time. And the book's
(03:45):
part is enormous, but it's just one part of many
in this one quite small city. So there's a real
intensity about it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That reception that New Zealand writers and poets get in
Scotland that must all go well for the New Zealand
authors wanting an international audience. Is there any indication that
there is an appetite overseas for New Zealand writing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I think so for sure in recent years that's really
come to fruition for some writers. So Catherine Chidge, for example,
who's also in Edinburgh this year, The Book of Guilt
is published in the UK and has had a really
very warm and visible reception, lots of reviews. Becky's book
(04:35):
is published over there and it was proudly displayed in
the Waterstones Bookshop, which is always above and yeah, there's
definitely New Zealand writing kind of very visible. Also Nina
Minya Powells, who lives in London but is from Alturdor,
she was in the festival as well, and I met
(04:56):
several people who'd come just to see her. Her work
has really loved so I think there's a very strong
presence across different forms of literature as well, novels, poetry, nonfiction.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Now you've created and convened a lot of conferences, sorry,
a lot of festivals, arts festivals, writers festivals, poetry festivals.
Did you have a role in this event or were
you just there as a consumer and Observer.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I was there this year as a writer, which is
the first time for me because I'm normally as a
festival organizer and programmer, but this year I was invited
as a writer, which was a really big honor and
very new for me. So I was there to do
I'm a children's writer, so I was there with my
(05:45):
novel and I worked with kids. So I did a
workshop and then did a really interesting conversation event with
a Scottish playwright and poet called Layla Josephine, who told
me she lived in Queenstown for eight months. So we
had and again yeah and where you had a really
(06:06):
great conversation about trying to hold on to a passion
for reading and their imagination when you are a teacher.
So we talked to a lot of teachers about the
obstacles they have at the moment in Scotland for trying
to build creativity in the classroom. It sounds like a
(06:26):
lot of pressures on teachers in Scotland that are just
the same as in New Zealand, and it's that trying
to how do you instill a love of reading and
reluctant readers or in a classroom environment where there's just
so little time. So we had a really interesting conversation.
(06:47):
So I was there as a writer, which means I
also just got to welt surround and see lots of things,
which is my favorite thing about it. You just can
kind of so you're on.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
The other side of the of the playing field as
it were normally, you're organizing this time that you're one
of the participants, and you, as you say, you are
an author, yourself a prize winning author. You won the
NZSA Best First Book Award for The Ravens Eye Runaways,
and it's been praised as great storytelling and captivating and enchanting.
(07:23):
So what you said, it's a children's book, but it's
actually not. Is that the right genre to describe it?
Is it young adult? Is it?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it's called middle grade, which is I guess for
ages eight to twelve generally, and that kind of age group.
But I always find that really difficult because I read
lots of middle grade novels as an adult, and I
always think adults should read more stories written for children
(07:56):
because they're so much fun and can tackle really big
ideas and through the lens of adventure and you know,
quite fast paced storytelling. Because you really have to keep
the kids turning your pages. And there's also just such
a wide breadth of curiosities and literacy in kids. So
(08:19):
I find that the age grouping is quite difficult. But yeah,
so roughly kind of it's for ages ag to twelve.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
How do you get into their world? I mean, you
did workshop with children over in Edinburgh. But did you
do you just rely on your own memory of what
it was like to be in those middle grades? Or
do you did you actually talk to kids? How do
you get a grasp of what language they'll understand, what
(08:48):
concepts that they would be turned on to. Did you
do any actual digging into that or do you just
rely on your own imagination and memory.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, it's a very good question. So when I set
out to write the book, i't I didn't even know
I was going to write a book for children. I
just started writing and realized the characters were about eleven
or twelve years old, and so I had to go
there in my brain, and I thankfully find it quite
easy to go back to my twelve year old self
(09:18):
that my life. Yeah, I was read it then and
I craved adventure and I craved to know more about
the world so I could go there in my brain,
and then I do read a lot of books for
that age group to try to understand pacing in particular.
(09:38):
But I also really strongly believe in not underestimating kids.
I think their capacity for going to the unknown and
following characters into the unknown is very big, and I
think kids crave going where adults don't. I think that
for me is a major thing. When I was a kid,
(09:59):
I always wanted to not have adults around so I could,
you know, find out the world for myself. And so
that was important for me in my book to have
kids have to really work out how to survive in
their world without adults telling them what to do, and
that's always good fun.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think the genre of plucky kids defeating nefarious, villainous
adults is always going to be very popular with kids,
because that's that's the sort of a fantasy that we have.
But I think it's great that you that you mentioned
the fact that we do have access to that kid
within us, that child within us, and so I'm sure
(10:43):
reading a book like yours would freshen up that aspect
of our lives. Hey, I'm going to talk to you
after the break about another world. You had to ender.
You had to enter into this world of kids to
be able to communicate to them, but you also entered
into a mysterious and magical world as well, and I
want to talk to you about that and your experiences
in that world after this break. If you've just joined it,
(11:06):
joined us. I'm having a great conversation with Claire. Maybe
she's in Scotland and she is an author and a
convener of festivals and an editor, the book editor for
the spin off. We'll be talking more with the after
this break.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
This is News Talks EDB Intelligent interviews with interesting people.
It's real life on Newstalks ED be right, I love
I watch.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
My moves down.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
A man in a corner approached me more a match
I knew right away on an away he.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Said, welcome back to real life. I'm John Cowen. Now
Claire maybe didn't sing that. She chose it though a
bit of Dylan. Why are we listening to Bob Dylan there, Claire.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Whenever someone asked me to pick a song, I always say,
is by Bob Dylan, because well, I love I love
Bob Dylan. I've loved him for since I was about
seventeen and I went to CD store in Totonga where
I grew up, and the guy there gave me a
Bob Dylan album and I think it was Desire, which
(12:23):
isis is on and I just loved it. And have
always been really interested in Bob Dylan as an artist
and as a shape shifter, and isis for me. This
song is such an adventure. I've always been so curious
about the lyrics and I wish I could ask Bob
about them, and through.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
The lyrics a preparation for tonight, and I couldn't understand
what they're on about. If you ever get any great
insight into what he's going on about, do drop me
a line. But they obviously it's a real.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's a real is an analogy to marriage. Apparently the
song is about his marriage to Sarah, and I guess
the kind of mad journey that you go on apart.
Sometimes they ended up breaking up, so I think the
song is about them breaking up. But yeah, I just
(13:15):
love it. It's got such a good rhythm to it.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Before the break, we were talking about the book that
you wrote and talking about understanding the world of kids,
but another world you had to delve into was the magical,
the numanus the spiritual? And I believe you got some
help from an English king and your research into this.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I did. I so this world. So I've always been
very interested in the medieval period I studied at university.
I've always been interested in that medieval imagination that to
us now seems so vivid and odd in many ways.
But I've always also been interested in the way book
(13:58):
culture has changed over time, particularly with the printing press,
but also with the rise of Christianity. And so King
James is fascinating to me because he sponsored the Bible,
or the King James Bible, but also sponsored the publication
of Demonology.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
He wrote, he didn't just.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, And so that's fascinating to me that these two
narratives were put into the world and were so influential,
and that Demonology was all, you know, really helped spur
on the witch trials and people's thinking about magic and
you know, evil forces amongst them. And I just find
(14:43):
that so interesting, the way books and narratives can influence
the way people behave and think towards each other.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So did this.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Grow out of any personal fascination that you have for
things spiritual?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And religious, Yes, definitely. I am a long time spirituality
curious person. I think I find it hard to call
myself religious because I don't go to church and I
don't belong to any religion. But I grew up in
an intensely Catholic family, and I have always been interested
(15:26):
in how Catholicism in my family was very helpful, and
you know, when tragedy happened, which it did unfortunately quite
often in my family, I could see how much that
belief system was helpful. And I can see how today
there's a real interesting from what I've been reading, resurgence
(15:49):
in Christianity and the community that it can build. And
I actually yesterday just went to a very interesting kind
of pagan Christian ritual called well wishing, and it was
in a little village, a Plague village, so it was
interesting to me from the media perspective. But they do
(16:13):
a ritual called well wishing, which is where the town
creates these beautiful kind of themed dressings all made out
of seeds and plants, and they do a Christian ceremony
to bring to wish for health in the next year
and to pray for those who have left. But it
(16:34):
seems it's at the same time very seasonal, and everybody's welcome.
There's a brass band. You kind of march through the
town to go to the well wishing. It's just a
really interesting thing, and I think that's quite lovely, and
I can see how it brings together the community of
the village. So I'm very interested in religion, and I
(16:54):
am I and you spent time in a monastery.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
That was one of the fascinating things. I read an
essay that you're right, yes, you and you end up
in this Greek monastery with these nuns and things, and
you paint a beautiful picture of your time there, nuns
and olives and sunshine and simple tasks and all buildings,
all very very serene and beautiful and heavenly. But then
(17:19):
the thing that got me was a difficult person arrived,
a jarring presence, a person that was sort of sharp
and awkward. And I guess that's the test of some
of these things. It can be lovely to be all
spiritual when you're in a nice, serene monastery, but when
jars against the real humanity, that's when it starts to
get shaken a bit, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
That's exactly right. It was such an interesting time and
I was very young, was in my twenties and very
free and traveling around and I had the best time
with these nuns in their very beautiful place. But yeah,
this person who came wo really did. She was seeking
something from that place that was so different to why
(18:03):
I was there, And yeah, it was really interesting for
the rest of us. There are just a few of us,
you know, in our early twenties, so are there working
on the farm and hanging out with the nuns. And
it was, Yeah, it really opened my eyes up to
the spiritual questing, I guess, and when you are in
real spiritual trouble, where do you go? And the nuns
(18:28):
were completely incredible in that way. They were very, very
sure that everybody was welcome. It didn't matter who you
were or where you were, from a total opens on policy.
And I found that remarkable.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
All right, Now, not all of us can pop off
to a sunny monastery and Greece to soak in ideas
and go deep into the meaning of life, but we
can soak in a book. And I'm just wondering if
there's been books that you've soaked in where you feel
like you're a different person after you've been inside those books.
Is there a book that's moved you like that?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's such a good question. I feel like most books
are read. Bring that to me. To be honest, I
get quite I did it. There's some research being done
overseas about reading and what type of reader you are,
and there's a quiz you can do, and I did
the quiz and it said I was a traveler, which
(19:25):
made sense to me because I do feel like that
with almost everything I read that I go right in
and go along with this story. But I think of
recent books that I've read. I really loved Terrier Warrior
by Anna Jackson, so the New Zealand poet and her
book Terrier Warrior. Is this really beautiful prose poetry, I
(19:50):
guess is maybe how she described it, But it's this
domestic thinking exercise of just thinking about who she is
in relation to the chickens she looks after, and her
husband and her child. And it was very kind of
curious and relaxing to read, but very relatable and the
(20:12):
types of questions and anxieties that the book goes over.
And then the other book that I have been reading
that I really loved, completely different, which is a biography
of Gertrude Stein, who was the amazing writer, very unusual person,
very avant garde writer in some ways, and just her
(20:33):
life and her the confidence that she had in her
own genius, and the way she had to live in
Paris and then through the war period just really fascinating.
And Francisca Wade wrote that, and she's a young biographer.
She's just amazing, And yeah, I loved that book.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
If you're a traveler when you come to your books,
that could be dangerous because if you're traveling with them
to dark places, they could rattle you. And I was
quite actually, I must admit I was shocked when I
read that you were reading and reviewing a book about
a child dying as you are delivering your own baby,
(21:12):
as Charlie was being born. And I just started thinking, Wow,
that's a scary place. I mean, if you were one
of these people that really goes.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Into a book, yeah, that's right, Yeah I did. I
had been commissioned to write a review of Kate Dagnan's
novel and I thought i'd have it done, but my
baby came early, so it was and I was so
high off the hormones in hospital that I finished the review,
which bizarre, but I the most fact that.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
The baby dies in that book, and you know, when
you've got your own baby there, that surely must have
sent all sorts of things swirling around in your head.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
It was, it was and I think I don't know
if most parents feel like this, but to me that
is I mean, it's the worst possible thing that could
even happen. And Damien Wilkins's latest novel, the one that
won the Fiction Novel of the Year at the arkhamsas year, Delirious,
also about a child dying, and I really did have
to hold off reading it for quite some time. I
(22:12):
had to myself to read it, and he does an
incredible job. But yeah, it is difficult, and we think
about this a lot when writing for children is how
dark can you go? You have to always make sure
that you leave them with hope and resolution.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
But it's been so good talking to you, but I'm
afraid I'm coming to a close. And I just thank
you for freshening up New Zealander's love of books and
writers and for fertilizing the writers there by encouraging them.
It's a good thing that you're doing. Claire. It's been
great talking with you, which you're the best for your
(22:51):
continued time in Scotland and safe travels back home. And
we'll listen as we go out to another song. What's
the song that we're listening to, isn't it as it's
playing out?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Paul Party by Julia Jacklin.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's fantastic. It's been lovely talking with You're Claire. I'm
John Cown. This is real life on News Talk s
Heed BB back you gains make Sunday Night, Did It
Die Dies?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Did It Dies?
Speaker 1 (24:08):
H For more from News talkst B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Joining me from Scotland is author and book editor for
the spin off Clear Maybe. Welcome, Claire.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Cut to John. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's lovely to talk to you, and it's nice to
know that the connection between New Zealand and Scotland is
clear enough for this conversation. But there's also another powerful
connection with Scotland and you've been part of it just recently.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
The Edinburgh International Book Festival is kind of a bit
of a home away from home for lots of New
Zealand writers and readers. I met quite a few New
Zealand readers there over the last few days and it's
always a real delight to be there. It's such a big,
hearty festival, and there was a specific kind of program
(01:06):
of New Zealand writers there this year which was really
lovely to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Now that strikes being. Initially has been a little bizarre
that in Edinburgh you'd have a festival of New Zealand writers,
that there's this what do they call it? A to
Elba festival? But how's that mean going down with Scottish
audiences Oh amazing.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
So that Alba was a specific event with Scottish poets
and New Zealand poets who actually came together. They met
each other in New Zealand at the Word christ Church
Festival and then again at the Verb Wellington Festival. So
it's been an ongoing relationship over ten years now, I think.
(01:49):
So the lineup was this beautiful lineup of Becky Manumitu
from New Zealand and Dominic Holley, and then we had
Michael Peterson from Scotland who's the Maca, who's kind of
like the poet Laureate of Edinburgh, and Holly mcnash who's
a brilliant writer and they The audience was rapturous and big.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That's something that should probably surprise people that people really
get a buzz out of these festivals. You've been organizing
festivals all over the place for more than a decade.
I don't know how when you started. Perhaps to ask
you about that a bit later, but did these New
Zealand poets and writers did they have to pull back
on their key winners? Did Scottish audiences get it?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Absolutely not? Like Becky man or two read from Katadina
her latest book, which is an extraordinary book, and she
was just herself and Dominic kvey a Game was just himself,
just as the Scottish poets that lots of their poetry
include scots which is unfamiliar for us. But I guess
(03:00):
in the same way that some Koboo Mardi might be
unfamiliar for Scotland. But Edinburgh is such a rich of
events from writers from all around the world, and it
celebrates that. It celebrates voices from everywhere, so no one
has to try and be Scottish or fit in. It's
just you're celebrated for bringing who you are. And the
(03:24):
audiences really love it, and I think it's such a buzz.
I love this festival. It's like a big party and
it's kind of amazing because it's situated within the festival months,
so there's the fringe Festival, the arts festival, the film festival,
all going on at the same time. And the book's
(03:45):
part is enormous, but it's just one part of many
in this one quite small city. So there's a real
intensity about it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That reception that New Zealand writers and poets get in
Scotland that must all go well for the New Zealand
authors wanting an international audience. Is there any indication that
there is an appetite overseas for New Zealand writing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I think so for sure in recent years that's really
come to fruition for some writers. So Catherine Chidge, for example,
who's also in Edinburgh this year, The Book of Guilt
is published in the UK and has had a really
very warm and visible reception, lots of reviews. Becky's book
(04:35):
is published over there and it was proudly displayed in
the Waterstones Bookshop, which is always above and yeah, there's
definitely New Zealand writing kind of very visible. Also Nina
Minya Powells, who lives in London but is from Alturdor,
she was in the festival as well, and I met
(04:56):
several people who'd come just to see her. Her work
has really loved so I think there's a very strong
presence across different forms of literature as well, novels, poetry, nonfiction.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Now you've created and convened a lot of conferences, sorry,
a lot of festivals, arts festivals, writers festivals, poetry festivals.
Did you have a role in this event or were
you just there as a consumer and Observer.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I was there this year as a writer, which is
the first time for me because I'm normally as a
festival organizer and programmer, but this year I was invited
as a writer, which was a really big honor and
very new for me. So I was there to do
I'm a children's writer, so I was there with my
(05:45):
novel and I worked with kids. So I did a
workshop and then did a really interesting conversation event with
a Scottish playwright and poet called Layla Josephine, who told
me she lived in Queenstown for eight months. So we
had and again yeah and where you had a really
(06:06):
great conversation about trying to hold on to a passion
for reading and their imagination when you are a teacher.
So we talked to a lot of teachers about the
obstacles they have at the moment in Scotland for trying
to build creativity in the classroom. It sounds like a
(06:26):
lot of pressures on teachers in Scotland that are just
the same as in New Zealand, and it's that trying
to how do you instill a love of reading and
reluctant readers or in a classroom environment where there's just
so little time. So we had a really interesting conversation.
(06:47):
So I was there as a writer, which means I
also just got to welt surround and see lots of things,
which is my favorite thing about it. You just can
kind of so you're on.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
The other side of the of the playing field as
it were normally, you're organizing this time that you're one
of the participants, and you, as you say, you are
an author, yourself a prize winning author. You won the
NZSA Best First Book Award for The Ravens Eye Runaways,
and it's been praised as great storytelling and captivating and enchanting.
(07:23):
So what you said, it's a children's book, but it's
actually not. Is that the right genre to describe it?
Is it young adult? Is it?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it's called middle grade, which is I guess for
ages eight to twelve generally, and that kind of age group.
But I always find that really difficult because I read
lots of middle grade novels as an adult, and I
always think adults should read more stories written for children
(07:56):
because they're so much fun and can tackle really big
ideas and through the lens of adventure and you know,
quite fast paced storytelling. Because you really have to keep
the kids turning your pages. And there's also just such
a wide breadth of curiosities and literacy in kids. So
(08:19):
I find that the age grouping is quite difficult. But yeah,
so roughly kind of it's for ages ag to twelve.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
How do you get into their world? I mean, you
did workshop with children over in Edinburgh. But did you
do you just rely on your own memory of what
it was like to be in those middle grades? Or
do you did you actually talk to kids? How do
you get a grasp of what language they'll understand, what
(08:48):
concepts that they would be turned on to. Did you
do any actual digging into that or do you just
rely on your own imagination and memory.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, it's a very good question. So when I set
out to write the book, i't I didn't even know
I was going to write a book for children. I
just started writing and realized the characters were about eleven
or twelve years old, and so I had to go
there in my brain, and I thankfully find it quite
easy to go back to my twelve year old self
(09:18):
that my life. Yeah, I was read it then and
I craved adventure and I craved to know more about
the world so I could go there in my brain,
and then I do read a lot of books for
that age group to try to understand pacing in particular.
(09:38):
But I also really strongly believe in not underestimating kids.
I think their capacity for going to the unknown and
following characters into the unknown is very big, and I
think kids crave going where adults don't. I think that
for me is a major thing. When I was a kid,
(09:59):
I always wanted to not have adults around so I could,
you know, find out the world for myself. And so
that was important for me in my book to have
kids have to really work out how to survive in
their world without adults telling them what to do, and
that's always good fun.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think the genre of plucky kids defeating nefarious, villainous
adults is always going to be very popular with kids,
because that's that's the sort of a fantasy that we have.
But I think it's great that you that you mentioned
the fact that we do have access to that kid
within us, that child within us, and so I'm sure
(10:43):
reading a book like yours would freshen up that aspect
of our lives. Hey, I'm going to talk to you
after the break about another world. You had to ender.
You had to enter into this world of kids to
be able to communicate to them, but you also entered
into a mysterious and magical world as well, and I
want to talk to you about that and your experiences
in that world after this break. If you've just joined it,
(11:06):
joined us. I'm having a great conversation with Claire. Maybe
she's in Scotland and she is an author and a
convener of festivals and an editor, the book editor for
the spin off. We'll be talking more with the after
this break.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
This is News Talks EDB Intelligent interviews with interesting people.
It's real life on Newstalks ED be right, I love
I watch.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
My moves down.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
A man in a corner approached me more a match
I knew right away on an away he.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Said, welcome back to real life. I'm John Cowen. Now
Claire maybe didn't sing that. She chose it though a
bit of Dylan. Why are we listening to Bob Dylan there, Claire.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Whenever someone asked me to pick a song, I always say,
is by Bob Dylan, because well, I love I love
Bob Dylan. I've loved him for since I was about
seventeen and I went to CD store in Totonga where
I grew up, and the guy there gave me a
Bob Dylan album and I think it was Desire, which
(12:23):
isis is on and I just loved it. And have
always been really interested in Bob Dylan as an artist
and as a shape shifter, and isis for me. This
song is such an adventure. I've always been so curious
about the lyrics and I wish I could ask Bob
about them, and through.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
The lyrics a preparation for tonight, and I couldn't understand
what they're on about. If you ever get any great
insight into what he's going on about, do drop me
a line. But they obviously it's a real.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's a real is an analogy to marriage. Apparently the
song is about his marriage to Sarah, and I guess
the kind of mad journey that you go on apart.
Sometimes they ended up breaking up, so I think the
song is about them breaking up. But yeah, I just
(13:15):
love it. It's got such a good rhythm to it.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Before the break, we were talking about the book that
you wrote and talking about understanding the world of kids,
but another world you had to delve into was the magical,
the numanus the spiritual? And I believe you got some
help from an English king and your research into this.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I did. I so this world. So I've always been
very interested in the medieval period I studied at university.
I've always been interested in that medieval imagination that to
us now seems so vivid and odd in many ways.
But I've always also been interested in the way book
(13:58):
culture has changed over time, particularly with the printing press,
but also with the rise of Christianity. And so King
James is fascinating to me because he sponsored the Bible,
or the King James Bible, but also sponsored the publication
of Demonology.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
He wrote, he didn't just.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, And so that's fascinating to me that these two
narratives were put into the world and were so influential,
and that Demonology was all, you know, really helped spur
on the witch trials and people's thinking about magic and
you know, evil forces amongst them. And I just find
(14:43):
that so interesting, the way books and narratives can influence
the way people behave and think towards each other.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So did this.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Grow out of any personal fascination that you have for
things spiritual?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
And religious, Yes, definitely. I am a long time spirituality
curious person. I think I find it hard to call
myself religious because I don't go to church and I
don't belong to any religion. But I grew up in
an intensely Catholic family, and I have always been interested
(15:26):
in how Catholicism in my family was very helpful, and
you know, when tragedy happened, which it did unfortunately quite
often in my family, I could see how much that
belief system was helpful. And I can see how today
there's a real interesting from what I've been reading, resurgence
(15:49):
in Christianity and the community that it can build. And
I actually yesterday just went to a very interesting kind
of pagan Christian ritual called well wishing, and it was
in a little village, a Plague village, so it was
interesting to me from the media perspective. But they do
(16:13):
a ritual called well wishing, which is where the town
creates these beautiful kind of themed dressings all made out
of seeds and plants, and they do a Christian ceremony
to bring to wish for health in the next year
and to pray for those who have left. But it
(16:34):
seems it's at the same time very seasonal, and everybody's welcome.
There's a brass band. You kind of march through the
town to go to the well wishing. It's just a
really interesting thing, and I think that's quite lovely, and
I can see how it brings together the community of
the village. So I'm very interested in religion, and I
(16:54):
am I and you spent time in a monastery.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
That was one of the fascinating things. I read an
essay that you're right, yes, you and you end up
in this Greek monastery with these nuns and things, and
you paint a beautiful picture of your time there, nuns
and olives and sunshine and simple tasks and all buildings,
all very very serene and beautiful and heavenly. But then
(17:19):
the thing that got me was a difficult person arrived,
a jarring presence, a person that was sort of sharp
and awkward. And I guess that's the test of some
of these things. It can be lovely to be all
spiritual when you're in a nice, serene monastery, but when
jars against the real humanity, that's when it starts to
get shaken a bit, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
That's exactly right. It was such an interesting time and
I was very young, was in my twenties and very
free and traveling around and I had the best time
with these nuns in their very beautiful place. But yeah,
this person who came wo really did. She was seeking
something from that place that was so different to why
(18:03):
I was there, And yeah, it was really interesting for
the rest of us. There are just a few of us,
you know, in our early twenties, so are there working
on the farm and hanging out with the nuns. And
it was, Yeah, it really opened my eyes up to
the spiritual questing, I guess, and when you are in
real spiritual trouble, where do you go? And the nuns
(18:28):
were completely incredible in that way. They were very, very
sure that everybody was welcome. It didn't matter who you
were or where you were, from a total opens on policy.
And I found that remarkable.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
All right, Now, not all of us can pop off
to a sunny monastery and Greece to soak in ideas
and go deep into the meaning of life, but we
can soak in a book. And I'm just wondering if
there's been books that you've soaked in where you feel
like you're a different person after you've been inside those books.
Is there a book that's moved you like that?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's such a good question. I feel like most books
are read. Bring that to me. To be honest, I
get quite I did it. There's some research being done
overseas about reading and what type of reader you are,
and there's a quiz you can do, and I did
the quiz and it said I was a traveler, which
(19:25):
made sense to me because I do feel like that
with almost everything I read that I go right in
and go along with this story. But I think of
recent books that I've read. I really loved Terrier Warrior
by Anna Jackson, so the New Zealand poet and her
book Terrier Warrior. Is this really beautiful prose poetry, I
(19:50):
guess is maybe how she described it, But it's this
domestic thinking exercise of just thinking about who she is
in relation to the chickens she looks after, and her
husband and her child. And it was very kind of
curious and relaxing to read, but very relatable and the
(20:12):
types of questions and anxieties that the book goes over.
And then the other book that I have been reading
that I really loved, completely different, which is a biography
of Gertrude Stein, who was the amazing writer, very unusual person,
very avant garde writer in some ways, and just her
(20:33):
life and her the confidence that she had in her
own genius, and the way she had to live in
Paris and then through the war period just really fascinating.
And Francisca Wade wrote that, and she's a young biographer.
She's just amazing, And yeah, I loved that book.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
If you're a traveler when you come to your books,
that could be dangerous because if you're traveling with them
to dark places, they could rattle you. And I was
quite actually, I must admit I was shocked when I
read that you were reading and reviewing a book about
a child dying as you are delivering your own baby,
(21:12):
as Charlie was being born. And I just started thinking, Wow,
that's a scary place. I mean, if you were one
of these people that really goes.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Into a book, yeah, that's right, Yeah I did. I
had been commissioned to write a review of Kate Dagnan's
novel and I thought i'd have it done, but my
baby came early, so it was and I was so
high off the hormones in hospital that I finished the review,
which bizarre, but I the most fact that.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
The baby dies in that book, and you know, when
you've got your own baby there, that surely must have
sent all sorts of things swirling around in your head.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
It was, it was and I think I don't know
if most parents feel like this, but to me that
is I mean, it's the worst possible thing that could
even happen. And Damien Wilkins's latest novel, the one that
won the Fiction Novel of the Year at the arkhamsas year, Delirious,
also about a child dying, and I really did have
to hold off reading it for quite some time. I
(22:12):
had to myself to read it, and he does an
incredible job. But yeah, it is difficult, and we think
about this a lot when writing for children is how
dark can you go? You have to always make sure
that you leave them with hope and resolution.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
But it's been so good talking to you, but I'm
afraid I'm coming to a close. And I just thank
you for freshening up New Zealander's love of books and
writers and for fertilizing the writers there by encouraging them.
It's a good thing that you're doing. Claire. It's been
great talking with you, which you're the best for your
(22:51):
continued time in Scotland and safe travels back home. And
we'll listen as we go out to another song. What's
the song that we're listening to, isn't it as it's
playing out?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Paul Party by Julia Jacklin.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's fantastic. It's been lovely talking with You're Claire. I'm
John Cown. This is real life on News Talk s
Heed BB back you gains make Sunday Night, Did It
Die Dies?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Did It Dies?
Speaker 1 (24:08):
H For more from News talkst B, listen live on
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