August 17, 2025 • 25 mins
Ian Foster is a New Zealand rugby coach and former fly-half born in Putāruru. He played a record 148 games for Waikato and 28 for the Chiefs, also appearing for the NZRFU President’s XV in 1995.
Foster began coaching with Waikato before joining the All Blacks as assistant coach in 2012, helping win the 2015 Rugby World Cup. He became head coach in 2020, leading New Zealand to multiple Bledisloe Cup, Freedom Cup, and Rugby Championship victories, and a Rugby World Cup final in 2023.
In 2025, Foster was appointed a Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit for services to rugby. He now coaches Japanese club Toyota Verblitz and is supported by his wife Leigh and their three adult children, including professional footballer Michaela
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talks ed Bud Gooda.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen. Ian Foster's career
as head coach of the All Blacks was a dream,
the type of dream you have after eating too much
cheese before going to bed. Lots of challenges, lots of dramas,
plenty of wins, but some pretty bitter defeats as well.
So he's distilled his reflections on those years into a
book called Leading under Pressure and Ian joins me, now,
(00:57):
welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Nice to be here, John, thank you very much for
having me.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's my pleasure. You're back in New Zealand for a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, so back from Japan. Basically three months at home
and then up to Japan end of August for the
next nine months will take a week or two, so
we become winter baby easily and I we have a
winter here and then we go back up to a
Japan winter eventually. So getting used to that.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Gosh, if you picked a different code like softball or
baseball or something like that. You could have had a
much better tan.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, you think I'd get a bit smarter as I
got older. No changed.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Congratulations on your book, And it's interesting that you've written
it with Gregor Paul because he's a great journalist. But
he was not always on your side. He was sometimes
a bit critical of you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, he was, and but that's that's the business, you know,
And I think it's you know, when you're when you're
coaching the all Blacks, you have to put up with
a whole lot of different sort of opinions and that's
the beauty of the job. So but you know, Gregor,
Gregor I always felt to be really fair. He had
(02:11):
his times that he felt there was a need for
a change, but then I also thought he was, you know,
big enough to actually be open minded once things once
we're able to start turning things around and moving in
the direction we wanted it to be. He was able
to recognize that and at least gave a bit of
credit for that. But great journalist, and I was delighted
(02:34):
with what he the way he guided me through this process.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well that's to his credit into yours and to your
own credit. But I guess that's what a coach looks for.
The ability to see a problem but then get around
the problem to get to something better.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, that's the name of the game, really, and it's
ironically it's what we ask our players to do, and
we demand that they learn and grow. And I think
as a coach you have to do that too. And
you know, we don't get it right all the time,
but the goal is to you know, give it you
to make the best decisions that with all the information
(03:10):
you got, and then learn from their last experience. So
that's part of the job that I love the most. Really.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Look, that's a key theme that comes through in your book,
and it's something that I think probably every coach reading
this book will take very much to heart. That players
don't look so much at what you how you do
your job. It's just who you are and whether you're
doing the same type of stuff and making the same
type of calls on yourself as you're asking the players
to do.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, no, I think that's pretty critical. I mean, yes, yes,
you have to lead and you've got to be directive
at times, and our job is to critique and give
criticism or way forwards for players. To get better. But
the flip side of it is that it's we're also
accountable by the same standards. And I think the big
(03:59):
thing about leadership is in a rugby sense, is that
you're part of a team and we've all got different titles,
different roles, but we're going to connect and work together,
and ultimately the team is the thing that matters, not
so much the sum of the individuals.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, nothing was easy in your time as a coach.
As a head coach, I mean you were straight into
COVID and that is not an easy That wasn't easy
for any of us, I think. But well, first of all,
you nearly got stuck overseas.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, we did, and I think there's times my
wife probably was quite thankful of that, but I'd say
that's not true. But I think, you know, like at
eight years as an assistant coach with Steve and various
other people Scott McLeod, Wayne Smith, Ozzy McLain, those sort
of people, and Mike Kron and so going from that
(04:56):
where you know, things were rolling pretty well and we
had great rhythm and routines about how we did stuff,
and then suddenly, you know, going into the head coach role.
I went in there with a lot of confidence of
understanding the environment, but the environment turned itself on its head,
(05:17):
we know, with COVID, and I think we all went
through that and things that we took for granted, or
structures or routines we took for granted in terms of
how we built performance just basically went out the window.
So it was an interesting time and lots of pressure
on organizations financially, all sorts of components that really started
(05:38):
to become bigger conversations in some ways in the performance
side of the job.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I know. I think there was a press release
saying that the rugby union was going to be losing
what's seventy percent of its income that year and yep,
and I was impressed that your response and the response
of the players was will take a cup?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Yeah. Well, you know, I think it's you know, the
players across the board in this country and I'm not
just talking all back players. I'm turing super rugby players,
and that it's you know, they're often held up as
having glamorous jobs and well paid and all that sort
of stuff, but you know, they were you know, they
were quick to put their hand up and help at
(06:23):
that stage of the game at all different levels. And
you know, I thought the work of the super rugby
clubs I thought was excellent. You know, they were the
people on the ground at the time, in that March
April May period, and there was a lot of a
lot of decisions made about you know, cutting costs and that,
but also equally there was a major campaign with it,
(06:45):
well how can we look after people who are used
to having such a strong structure around their lives and
now Sunday they can't have it. So tough times for everyone,
but ultimately, you know, at the end of the day,
the All Blacks got together to play. We played six
tests that year and and all beit in a very
(07:05):
unique situation.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Before they first test, you had a visit, a call,
or someone wanted to have a cup of tea with
you from the from the Union. You're probably expecting them
to patch you on the back for getting a test
Underwagh under such difficult circumstances. It wasn't that type of discussion.
It was one of the things that sort of really
strikes you really early on in the book is that
you sometimes the opposition wasn't just from the other team.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, it was just people had different ways to deal
with with COVID and you know, like I said, that
systems and routines that we've had in the past were
thrown out the window. And so for example, where you know,
our own organization was grappling with how to deal with
high performance, how to deal with the money and the
(07:56):
financial situation, and so you know, you had a group
of an international rugby team management team that weren't playing
many games. And so for New Zealand Rugby board and management,
it became that to grapple with issues or how do
we actually judge their performance, how do we measure them,
how do we how do we do all this? And
(08:16):
so you know, there was it was a time that
you know, perhaps decisions needed to be made made a
lot more collaborative at that point, but there were It
was when when decisions were made that didn't kind of
suit you or make sense to the to us as
the practitioners of the All Blacks, that that's when it
got tough.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, I just I mean, you comment on say the
timing of dumping on you just on the morning of
your first test, that they're not going to renew your
contract unless you know they're going not going to reeble
to review it until at the end of your contractor
rather than ensuring some continuity. That that must have been
(08:55):
a bit of a kick in the guts.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, it was strange time. You know, we were all
keen to have a conversation about it. But if that
was the end of the if that was the news
they wanted to present, it was probably better presented in
a very different way a different time. But again that's
you know, people were, well, I think, making decisions without
(09:17):
sort of high regard for what it actually meant to
be involved in the team at that point and what
we had to go through. So so, whilst I've always
conceded that everyone's allowed a different view and that sort
of stuff, when you're in a high performance environment and
there's massive change around, then I believe that stability and
(09:38):
a certain degree of continuity was essential for us going forward.
And so that's what I was looking for for my
group all right.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Now, when you look at your trophy cabinet, I hope
you've got a trophy cabinet somewhere. I mean, you know,
you can see wins and placings at three World Cups
and just since twenty twenty, you know, four Blood's Low
Cup wins, three wins in the Freedom Cup and four
Championship wins. And you've got a lot of things right,
and so what what are your favorite memory of your
(10:09):
time with the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, look, I think you know, I mean three World
Cups are special. Having a gold, bronze, silver medal, you know,
from three World Cups. I was, you know, obviously we
always want three goals, but it's you know, I think
it's history shows it's not that easy winning that thing.
The I think taking over as a head coach, and
(10:36):
I think a highlight was particularly twenty twenty one where
we played fifteen tests, which included hitting the road and
not being able to come home for about three and
a half months because of quarantining rules and playing sort of.
I think it was about ten tests and twelve weeks
on the road where the boys are largely locked in hotels,
(10:59):
and I think getting the group through that tour. You know,
we in that tour, we still we won the Rugby Championship.
We won our one hundredth Test match against Africa. You know,
from a big historical view that was important to us.
Played it in towns of all which will be a
good trivia question. There was one hundredth tests between New
Zealand and South Africa played.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Far that that went away and put it out sometime.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And I think keeping the team intact for that time
period was pretty special. I think, you know, like winning
the rugby championships right through that period, winning the bled
those always highlights. And finally, I think the World Cup,
you know, I think you know, we tried a few
things before it. We had a great Rugby Championship, great
(11:44):
bleders low, we dropped the first game to France, but
I thought the World Cup was the planning was spot on,
and you know, being in Ireland in that quarterfinal was
obviously massively memorable. Beginning to that final and giving ourselves
a chance of winning it was pretty special, right.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I hope those are the memories that flowed up most
readily when you're looking back on this time. But I
know there's going to be also a few prickals in
those memories as well. Times when things were going against you,
when the press were buying and calling for your blood,
Whose support did you value most? When the tides were
(12:21):
going against you?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You know, the tide really, I mean, first and foremost.
When I first got the job, yet you never you've
never you're never going to come in with one hundred
percent support. You know, you're always going to find you know,
if you get fifty percent, and you're probably doing pretty
good as an all black Head coach at the start.
But it was really around that twenty two period where
we lost that series to Ireland and at home and
(12:48):
they were really well primed for that tour. We probably weren't.
We're coming off two years of Super rugby playing ourselves
and I just don't think we're quite ready for a
tour of that nature. And so that's when things got tough,
and that's where there was a you know, it was
a big sort of become pretty aggressive, the criticisms, and
(13:13):
I think, I think, you know, where do I go
from there? I think Number one, I mean family is
always critical and the support of for my family to
lead you to have her walk alongside me and know
that she's that she still still believes in, supports and
(13:34):
thinks it's right for me to be doing what I'm doing.
And then I think there's a whole network of friends.
But I would say the number the biggest support you
get as a coach is from the group that you
lead and as long as that group of management and
I mean you're looking at close to twenty people in
your management team, you're looking at thirty six players that
(13:57):
the are the ones that are hurting too and not
trying to take all the pressure on yourselves, but the
team is hurting, and so what's the right thing for
the team. And so having the from them that that
this group was still on track to do something or
wanted to achieve something was the power that I took.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, you mentioned a lovely call you got from Ardie Savia,
and you know, it just sort of shows that those
guys you know, are realists and yet totally loyal and
they're that's that's who you're leading. So that's probably the
ones that really matter.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And it's and it's not like it was
a sort of a sort of a comby R type
session that everyone sort of tagging each other and saying, oh,
we'll stick at this together. We wanted to win. We
did not like losing, and and we hated that. But
so it was really a determination that the first criteria is, Okay,
(14:55):
we need to get better after that IRAS series, and
and so how are we going to do it. Do
we need new people or do we just need to
roll our sleeves up and find a better way? And
and that's that's the belief that I had in the
group and that got returned to me.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
My guest that night is Ian Foster, twelve years leading
the All Blacks, for four years as head coach, and
he's written a great book called Leading Underpression. I'm carrying
on my conversation with Ian after his break.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news talks.
It be.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Elosa Market prov Welcome back to real life. My guest
tonight is Ian Foster, who's written a book about his
(15:55):
years leading the All Blacks. And he's also picked a
piece of music I've never heard before. What are we
listening to there? Ian?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
That's the guy Zuker, who's an Italian. He's an iconic
sort of artist from Italy. There's a lot of duets
of people around the world. Lee and I lived in
Italy in our mid twenties and he was a bit
of a rocker then, but that that song comes from it.
He did a concert at the Royal Albert Hall with
a whole lot of different people and didn don Dio
(16:23):
was is one of his songs. And I remember and
my father and I used to listen to the watch
that album and the video thing a lot of that
concert and it meant a lot to him. And when
he went through his dementia stage of life before he's
passing away, it was they were songs that we'd sit
(16:44):
together and listen and he'd have a big smile and
get up and dance too. So it's always been special.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I remember your dad, Jack, and he was a great guy,
and he was a Presbyterian minister. And yeah, other brothers
have gone into various types of Christian work. I mean
your brother works, Greg works for the Salvation Army, and
you've got another brother who's a Baptist minister. And I'm
not going to say happened to you. I'm just going
to say in that environment, in that environment, obviously, faith
(17:15):
was a huge part of your upbringing. I'm just wondering
it's still part of your life.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Oh I am My faith vital for me and it
always has been. And it's you know, like mom and dad,
you know, the church was a messive part of us
as kids, and and and you know we I think
all three of us went on and decided that it
(17:41):
was the way forward for us as Christians. So for
us it became a big part of our life, all
of us, and it is for my family going forward
as well. So and at times, you know, there's it's
you know, I've often called myself the black sheep of
the family because I'm the rugby coach and the other
(18:01):
guys are still involved. But you know, who knows where
God puts you, and we've put there for a reason,
and that's what I like to do.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'm sure as you're sitting up in that in that
box watching the players play, your prayer life is probably
even more active than your brothers.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Well, there is a bit of praying going on on
the shed before test matches from a whole lot of people.
But it's you know, it's it's great to have a
purpose in life, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Do you find that that's something that that is part
of rugby culture. I mean, it often comes across as
being all macho and everything like that, but I've talked
to a lot of people involved in professional sport over
the years and that's often surprising how they how they
(18:52):
have interactions around their faith and about how many of
them it's an important part of their lives.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Absolutely, and you know it's it's not the case for everyone,
but it is, you know. I think I think one
thing you get out out of high performance sport is
that you put up put in a lot of high, perfect,
precious situations. And sometimes when you put in those situations,
you you start to realize that maybe you start to doubt,
(19:18):
sometimes you've got the strength to get through it yourself.
And so there's sort of a I think there's a natural,
a natural cry for help at times, and see it
through players, but it's you know, and it's across all boards.
You know, we've had and the all blacks, we've had Muslims,
we've had people who you know, would call themselves non believers,
(19:39):
and then people from different other faiths. So it's been
it's no different to most other avenues of life. Really
got a mix of people, and the key is to
allow people the opportunity to be who they are within
the environment you're trying to trying to set up.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Right. Yeah, it's a real part of our culture that
Robbie doesn't float to the surface in a media scenes
very much, but it's it's real enough thinking about something
being natural. I sometimes I'm looking at your career. It
seemed almost your career followed a natural progression just because
(20:17):
you loved sport. I don't think you ever really set
out to be Okay, I'm going to become the All
Blacks coach.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
It just.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Did you ever sort of look around going how did
this happen?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah? No, I do, There's no doubt about that. It's
funny when you sit down and start thinking, I'm going
to write a book, you know, and get some people
to get better, write a book. And I ended up
writing a book because I wanted to do it really
for my management team and the players who had been
through so much. But when I started involving the process,
(20:49):
people don't want to read my book. You know. You
don't sort of think you're that interesting in life. And
it's and so for me, it was never a journey
that I anticipated. But you know, I went into business.
I went into marketing and had my own marketing business
when I was finishing playing rugby, and then eventually got
(21:11):
a sort of a part time role with why Kaddow
as a coach and sort of went from there. But
I guess everyone's got a different mindset and a different journey.
But my journey was really not about looking too far
into the future. I don't sort of cast my eyes
too far and say that's where I want to be.
I kind of just want to be the best that
(21:33):
I can be for where I'm at right now. And
that's how I approached my coaching. And you know, the
doors keept opening. But it's like, okay, well, if it's
meant to be, it's meant to be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
You say, that's how you approach coach, and coaching approached you.
I mean, you were the most camp player in why
cattter or I think in the how many caps did
you get aboute hundred and fifty eight or something and
forty eight years fifty it will say a hundred plase
two hundred and fifty, And they obviously didn't want to
lose you, so they'd come and be a coach. And
(22:05):
then after you'd done your time with Ocado and the Chiefs,
Steve Hansen said, come and be a coach of the
All Blacks, and so yeah, I mean, if you were
giving advice on how to get to the top rung,
you wouldn't have a clue because if you just seem
to find yourself on them.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, that's probably right. But I think the and it
does show you that, you know, coaching is often about timing.
It's often about where your style fits with a group
of players at that particular time, and because everyone has
their own different style about how they go about things,
and I think that, you know, sometimes you've got to
(22:44):
remind yourself that as a coach, and and just put
your ego to one side to say, well, you know
you did it because you you're great. Well, actually, you
know you did it because you probably just suited this
particular group of people at that time. And yeah, and
that's becoming that becomes increasingly hard. It sounds simple, but
it become increasingly harder to do when the you know,
(23:06):
the whole focus now is on the position have and
and you know, all the articles are about you and
if your team win, then you're great, and if your
team lose, then you're useless. But you just got to
just remember that there's there's a job title, and then
there's a person, and you've just got to be true
to the person.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah. I don't think you're ever going to escape it.
And I think that you're always going to be looking
back over your shoulder and seeing there's a group of
people following you, and that I guess marks out a leader.
It's not so many so much the courses they do
or the professional professional path. It's you know, if you've
got the heart to be a leader, people follow you.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah, well it seems to be what I do. So
it's you know, it's interesting going to over coaching in
Japan at the moment and the Tiger Company, which I'm
really enjoying, is you know, it's a good good for
an old dog to have to learn some new tricks
with language and culture and new people when there's real challenges.
(24:05):
At the end of the day. What I knew and
what I know now after a year there, and I
knew going into it anyway, is it it's it's the
same people, it's the same role. You just got to
People just want to They want to feel your energy.
They want to feel that that you've got, that you
care for where you're at. You're there not just to
(24:26):
use them to climb a ladder. You're there just to
do the best thing you can for that group of people.
And that's the key, and so work hard to try
and get that right most of the time.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right, this is real life on news stalks there'd be
I'm John Cown and I'm looking forward to being back
with you again next Sunday night. But before we go, Ian,
what's this last bit of music we're going to be
listening to?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I just Fleetwood Mac dreams. You know, it's a clicheic
sort of soft rock from the from the air when
I was growing up that Fleetwood Mac died straits that
sort of very hard to beat. So I had to
bring out an oldie and a good ee.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And so Ian, thank you for the book, Thank you
for your time today, and I wish you all the best.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
My pleasure to John, thanks having.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Me all the honest apples.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And whenever they will, they will come
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Ething for more from Used Talks at b Listen live
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talks ed Bud Gooda.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen. Ian Foster's career
as head coach of the All Blacks was a dream,
the type of dream you have after eating too much
cheese before going to bed. Lots of challenges, lots of dramas,
plenty of wins, but some pretty bitter defeats as well.
So he's distilled his reflections on those years into a
book called Leading under Pressure and Ian joins me, now,
(00:57):
welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Nice to be here, John, thank you very much for
having me.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's my pleasure. You're back in New Zealand for a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, so back from Japan. Basically three months at home
and then up to Japan end of August for the
next nine months will take a week or two, so
we become winter baby easily and I we have a
winter here and then we go back up to a
Japan winter eventually. So getting used to that.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Gosh, if you picked a different code like softball or
baseball or something like that. You could have had a
much better tan.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, you think I'd get a bit smarter as I
got older. No changed.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Congratulations on your book, And it's interesting that you've written
it with Gregor Paul because he's a great journalist. But
he was not always on your side. He was sometimes
a bit critical of you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, he was, and but that's that's the business, you know,
And I think it's you know, when you're when you're
coaching the all Blacks, you have to put up with
a whole lot of different sort of opinions and that's
the beauty of the job. So but you know, Gregor,
Gregor I always felt to be really fair. He had
(02:11):
his times that he felt there was a need for
a change, but then I also thought he was, you know,
big enough to actually be open minded once things once
we're able to start turning things around and moving in
the direction we wanted it to be. He was able
to recognize that and at least gave a bit of
credit for that. But great journalist, and I was delighted
(02:34):
with what he the way he guided me through this process.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well that's to his credit into yours and to your
own credit. But I guess that's what a coach looks for.
The ability to see a problem but then get around
the problem to get to something better.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, that's the name of the game, really, and it's
ironically it's what we ask our players to do, and
we demand that they learn and grow. And I think
as a coach you have to do that too. And
you know, we don't get it right all the time,
but the goal is to you know, give it you
to make the best decisions that with all the information
(03:10):
you got, and then learn from their last experience. So
that's part of the job that I love the most. Really.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Look, that's a key theme that comes through in your book,
and it's something that I think probably every coach reading
this book will take very much to heart. That players
don't look so much at what you how you do
your job. It's just who you are and whether you're
doing the same type of stuff and making the same
type of calls on yourself as you're asking the players
to do.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, no, I think that's pretty critical. I mean, yes, yes,
you have to lead and you've got to be directive
at times, and our job is to critique and give
criticism or way forwards for players. To get better. But
the flip side of it is that it's we're also
accountable by the same standards. And I think the big
(03:59):
thing about leadership is in a rugby sense, is that
you're part of a team and we've all got different titles,
different roles, but we're going to connect and work together,
and ultimately the team is the thing that matters, not
so much the sum of the individuals.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, nothing was easy in your time as a coach.
As a head coach, I mean you were straight into
COVID and that is not an easy That wasn't easy
for any of us, I think. But well, first of all,
you nearly got stuck overseas.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, we did, and I think there's times my
wife probably was quite thankful of that, but I'd say
that's not true. But I think, you know, like at
eight years as an assistant coach with Steve and various
other people Scott McLeod, Wayne Smith, Ozzy McLain, those sort
of people, and Mike Kron and so going from that
(04:56):
where you know, things were rolling pretty well and we
had great rhythm and routines about how we did stuff,
and then suddenly, you know, going into the head coach role.
I went in there with a lot of confidence of
understanding the environment, but the environment turned itself on its head,
(05:17):
we know, with COVID, and I think we all went
through that and things that we took for granted, or
structures or routines we took for granted in terms of
how we built performance just basically went out the window.
So it was an interesting time and lots of pressure
on organizations financially, all sorts of components that really started
(05:38):
to become bigger conversations in some ways in the performance
side of the job.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I know. I think there was a press release
saying that the rugby union was going to be losing
what's seventy percent of its income that year and yep,
and I was impressed that your response and the response
of the players was will take a cup?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Yeah. Well, you know, I think it's you know, the
players across the board in this country and I'm not
just talking all back players. I'm turing super rugby players,
and that it's you know, they're often held up as
having glamorous jobs and well paid and all that sort
of stuff, but you know, they were you know, they
were quick to put their hand up and help at
(06:23):
that stage of the game at all different levels. And
you know, I thought the work of the super rugby
clubs I thought was excellent. You know, they were the
people on the ground at the time, in that March
April May period, and there was a lot of a
lot of decisions made about you know, cutting costs and that,
but also equally there was a major campaign with it,
(06:45):
well how can we look after people who are used
to having such a strong structure around their lives and
now Sunday they can't have it. So tough times for everyone,
but ultimately, you know, at the end of the day,
the All Blacks got together to play. We played six
tests that year and and all beit in a very
(07:05):
unique situation.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Before they first test, you had a visit, a call,
or someone wanted to have a cup of tea with
you from the from the Union. You're probably expecting them
to patch you on the back for getting a test
Underwagh under such difficult circumstances. It wasn't that type of discussion.
It was one of the things that sort of really
strikes you really early on in the book is that
you sometimes the opposition wasn't just from the other team.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, it was just people had different ways to deal
with with COVID and you know, like I said, that
systems and routines that we've had in the past were
thrown out the window. And so for example, where you know,
our own organization was grappling with how to deal with
high performance, how to deal with the money and the
(07:56):
financial situation, and so you know, you had a group
of an international rugby team management team that weren't playing
many games. And so for New Zealand Rugby board and management,
it became that to grapple with issues or how do
we actually judge their performance, how do we measure them,
how do we how do we do all this? And
(08:16):
so you know, there was it was a time that
you know, perhaps decisions needed to be made made a
lot more collaborative at that point, but there were It
was when when decisions were made that didn't kind of
suit you or make sense to the to us as
the practitioners of the All Blacks, that that's when it
got tough.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, I just I mean, you comment on say the
timing of dumping on you just on the morning of
your first test, that they're not going to renew your
contract unless you know they're going not going to reeble
to review it until at the end of your contractor
rather than ensuring some continuity. That that must have been
(08:55):
a bit of a kick in the guts.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, it was strange time. You know, we were all
keen to have a conversation about it. But if that
was the end of the if that was the news
they wanted to present, it was probably better presented in
a very different way a different time. But again that's
you know, people were, well, I think, making decisions without
(09:17):
sort of high regard for what it actually meant to
be involved in the team at that point and what
we had to go through. So so, whilst I've always
conceded that everyone's allowed a different view and that sort
of stuff, when you're in a high performance environment and
there's massive change around, then I believe that stability and
(09:38):
a certain degree of continuity was essential for us going forward.
And so that's what I was looking for for my
group all right.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Now, when you look at your trophy cabinet, I hope
you've got a trophy cabinet somewhere. I mean, you know,
you can see wins and placings at three World Cups
and just since twenty twenty, you know, four Blood's Low
Cup wins, three wins in the Freedom Cup and four
Championship wins. And you've got a lot of things right,
and so what what are your favorite memory of your
(10:09):
time with the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, look, I think you know, I mean three World
Cups are special. Having a gold, bronze, silver medal, you know,
from three World Cups. I was, you know, obviously we
always want three goals, but it's you know, I think
it's history shows it's not that easy winning that thing.
The I think taking over as a head coach, and
(10:36):
I think a highlight was particularly twenty twenty one where
we played fifteen tests, which included hitting the road and
not being able to come home for about three and
a half months because of quarantining rules and playing sort of.
I think it was about ten tests and twelve weeks
on the road where the boys are largely locked in hotels,
(10:59):
and I think getting the group through that tour. You know,
we in that tour, we still we won the Rugby Championship.
We won our one hundredth Test match against Africa. You know,
from a big historical view that was important to us.
Played it in towns of all which will be a
good trivia question. There was one hundredth tests between New
Zealand and South Africa played.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Far that that went away and put it out sometime.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And I think keeping the team intact for that time
period was pretty special. I think, you know, like winning
the rugby championships right through that period, winning the bled
those always highlights. And finally, I think the World Cup,
you know, I think you know, we tried a few
things before it. We had a great Rugby Championship, great
(11:44):
bleders low, we dropped the first game to France, but
I thought the World Cup was the planning was spot on,
and you know, being in Ireland in that quarterfinal was
obviously massively memorable. Beginning to that final and giving ourselves
a chance of winning it was pretty special, right.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I hope those are the memories that flowed up most
readily when you're looking back on this time. But I
know there's going to be also a few prickals in
those memories as well. Times when things were going against you,
when the press were buying and calling for your blood,
Whose support did you value most? When the tides were
(12:21):
going against you?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You know, the tide really, I mean, first and foremost.
When I first got the job, yet you never you've
never you're never going to come in with one hundred
percent support. You know, you're always going to find you know,
if you get fifty percent, and you're probably doing pretty
good as an all black Head coach at the start.
But it was really around that twenty two period where
we lost that series to Ireland and at home and
(12:48):
they were really well primed for that tour. We probably weren't.
We're coming off two years of Super rugby playing ourselves
and I just don't think we're quite ready for a
tour of that nature. And so that's when things got tough,
and that's where there was a you know, it was
a big sort of become pretty aggressive, the criticisms, and
(13:13):
I think, I think, you know, where do I go
from there? I think Number one, I mean family is
always critical and the support of for my family to
lead you to have her walk alongside me and know
that she's that she still still believes in, supports and
(13:34):
thinks it's right for me to be doing what I'm doing.
And then I think there's a whole network of friends.
But I would say the number the biggest support you
get as a coach is from the group that you
lead and as long as that group of management and
I mean you're looking at close to twenty people in
your management team, you're looking at thirty six players that
(13:57):
the are the ones that are hurting too and not
trying to take all the pressure on yourselves, but the
team is hurting, and so what's the right thing for
the team. And so having the from them that that
this group was still on track to do something or
wanted to achieve something was the power that I took.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, you mentioned a lovely call you got from Ardie Savia,
and you know, it just sort of shows that those
guys you know, are realists and yet totally loyal and
they're that's that's who you're leading. So that's probably the
ones that really matter.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And it's and it's not like it was
a sort of a sort of a comby R type
session that everyone sort of tagging each other and saying, oh,
we'll stick at this together. We wanted to win. We
did not like losing, and and we hated that. But
so it was really a determination that the first criteria is, Okay,
(14:55):
we need to get better after that IRAS series, and
and so how are we going to do it. Do
we need new people or do we just need to
roll our sleeves up and find a better way? And
and that's that's the belief that I had in the
group and that got returned to me.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
My guest that night is Ian Foster, twelve years leading
the All Blacks, for four years as head coach, and
he's written a great book called Leading Underpression. I'm carrying
on my conversation with Ian after his break.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news talks.
It be.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Elosa Market prov Welcome back to real life. My guest
tonight is Ian Foster, who's written a book about his
(15:55):
years leading the All Blacks. And he's also picked a
piece of music I've never heard before. What are we
listening to there? Ian?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
That's the guy Zuker, who's an Italian. He's an iconic
sort of artist from Italy. There's a lot of duets
of people around the world. Lee and I lived in
Italy in our mid twenties and he was a bit
of a rocker then, but that that song comes from it.
He did a concert at the Royal Albert Hall with
a whole lot of different people and didn don Dio
(16:23):
was is one of his songs. And I remember and
my father and I used to listen to the watch
that album and the video thing a lot of that
concert and it meant a lot to him. And when
he went through his dementia stage of life before he's
passing away, it was they were songs that we'd sit
(16:44):
together and listen and he'd have a big smile and
get up and dance too. So it's always been special.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I remember your dad, Jack, and he was a great guy,
and he was a Presbyterian minister. And yeah, other brothers
have gone into various types of Christian work. I mean
your brother works, Greg works for the Salvation Army, and
you've got another brother who's a Baptist minister. And I'm
not going to say happened to you. I'm just going
to say in that environment, in that environment, obviously, faith
(17:15):
was a huge part of your upbringing. I'm just wondering
it's still part of your life.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Oh I am My faith vital for me and it
always has been. And it's you know, like mom and dad,
you know, the church was a messive part of us
as kids, and and and you know we I think
all three of us went on and decided that it
(17:41):
was the way forward for us as Christians. So for
us it became a big part of our life, all
of us, and it is for my family going forward
as well. So and at times, you know, there's it's
you know, I've often called myself the black sheep of
the family because I'm the rugby coach and the other
(18:01):
guys are still involved. But you know, who knows where
God puts you, and we've put there for a reason,
and that's what I like to do.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'm sure as you're sitting up in that in that
box watching the players play, your prayer life is probably
even more active than your brothers.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Well, there is a bit of praying going on on
the shed before test matches from a whole lot of people.
But it's you know, it's it's great to have a
purpose in life, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Do you find that that's something that that is part
of rugby culture. I mean, it often comes across as
being all macho and everything like that, but I've talked
to a lot of people involved in professional sport over
the years and that's often surprising how they how they
(18:52):
have interactions around their faith and about how many of
them it's an important part of their lives.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Absolutely, and you know it's it's not the case for everyone,
but it is, you know. I think I think one
thing you get out out of high performance sport is
that you put up put in a lot of high, perfect,
precious situations. And sometimes when you put in those situations,
you you start to realize that maybe you start to doubt,
(19:18):
sometimes you've got the strength to get through it yourself.
And so there's sort of a I think there's a natural,
a natural cry for help at times, and see it
through players, but it's you know, and it's across all boards.
You know, we've had and the all blacks, we've had Muslims,
we've had people who you know, would call themselves non believers,
(19:39):
and then people from different other faiths. So it's been
it's no different to most other avenues of life. Really
got a mix of people, and the key is to
allow people the opportunity to be who they are within
the environment you're trying to trying to set up.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Right. Yeah, it's a real part of our culture that
Robbie doesn't float to the surface in a media scenes
very much, but it's it's real enough thinking about something
being natural. I sometimes I'm looking at your career. It
seemed almost your career followed a natural progression just because
(20:17):
you loved sport. I don't think you ever really set
out to be Okay, I'm going to become the All
Blacks coach.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
It just.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Did you ever sort of look around going how did
this happen?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah? No, I do, There's no doubt about that. It's
funny when you sit down and start thinking, I'm going
to write a book, you know, and get some people
to get better, write a book. And I ended up
writing a book because I wanted to do it really
for my management team and the players who had been
through so much. But when I started involving the process,
(20:49):
people don't want to read my book. You know. You
don't sort of think you're that interesting in life. And
it's and so for me, it was never a journey
that I anticipated. But you know, I went into business.
I went into marketing and had my own marketing business
when I was finishing playing rugby, and then eventually got
(21:11):
a sort of a part time role with why Kaddow
as a coach and sort of went from there. But
I guess everyone's got a different mindset and a different journey.
But my journey was really not about looking too far
into the future. I don't sort of cast my eyes
too far and say that's where I want to be.
I kind of just want to be the best that
(21:33):
I can be for where I'm at right now. And
that's how I approached my coaching. And you know, the
doors keept opening. But it's like, okay, well, if it's
meant to be, it's meant to be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
You say, that's how you approach coach, and coaching approached you.
I mean, you were the most camp player in why
cattter or I think in the how many caps did
you get aboute hundred and fifty eight or something and
forty eight years fifty it will say a hundred plase
two hundred and fifty, And they obviously didn't want to
lose you, so they'd come and be a coach. And
(22:05):
then after you'd done your time with Ocado and the Chiefs,
Steve Hansen said, come and be a coach of the
All Blacks, and so yeah, I mean, if you were
giving advice on how to get to the top rung,
you wouldn't have a clue because if you just seem
to find yourself on them.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, that's probably right. But I think the and it
does show you that, you know, coaching is often about timing.
It's often about where your style fits with a group
of players at that particular time, and because everyone has
their own different style about how they go about things,
and I think that, you know, sometimes you've got to
(22:44):
remind yourself that as a coach, and and just put
your ego to one side to say, well, you know
you did it because you you're great. Well, actually, you
know you did it because you probably just suited this
particular group of people at that time. And yeah, and
that's becoming that becomes increasingly hard. It sounds simple, but
it become increasingly harder to do when the you know,
(23:06):
the whole focus now is on the position have and
and you know, all the articles are about you and
if your team win, then you're great, and if your
team lose, then you're useless. But you just got to
just remember that there's there's a job title, and then
there's a person, and you've just got to be true
to the person.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah. I don't think you're ever going to escape it.
And I think that you're always going to be looking
back over your shoulder and seeing there's a group of
people following you, and that I guess marks out a leader.
It's not so many so much the courses they do
or the professional professional path. It's you know, if you've
got the heart to be a leader, people follow you.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah, well it seems to be what I do. So
it's you know, it's interesting going to over coaching in
Japan at the moment and the Tiger Company, which I'm
really enjoying, is you know, it's a good good for
an old dog to have to learn some new tricks
with language and culture and new people when there's real challenges.
(24:05):
At the end of the day. What I knew and
what I know now after a year there, and I
knew going into it anyway, is it it's it's the
same people, it's the same role. You just got to
People just want to They want to feel your energy.
They want to feel that that you've got, that you
care for where you're at. You're there not just to
(24:26):
use them to climb a ladder. You're there just to
do the best thing you can for that group of people.
And that's the key, and so work hard to try
and get that right most of the time.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right, this is real life on news stalks there'd be
I'm John Cown and I'm looking forward to being back
with you again next Sunday night. But before we go, Ian,
what's this last bit of music we're going to be
listening to?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I just Fleetwood Mac dreams. You know, it's a clicheic
sort of soft rock from the from the air when
I was growing up that Fleetwood Mac died straits that
sort of very hard to beat. So I had to
bring out an oldie and a good ee.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And so Ian, thank you for the book, Thank you
for your time today, and I wish you all the best.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
My pleasure to John, thanks having.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Me all the honest apples.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And whenever they will, they will come
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Ething for more from Used Talks at b Listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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