November 10, 2024 • 23 mins
Mark Vette is an internationally renowned animal psychologist, zoologist, and founder of Dog Zen, an online dog training program. With over 40 years of experience, he has trained animals for iconic New Zealand commercials, Hollywood films like The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia, and TV series such as Purina Pound Pups to Dog Stars and Dogs Might Fly. Mark is famous for teaching dogs to drive and fly a small plane.
A passionate advocate for rescue dogs, Mark has appeared in global campaigns promoting adoption. His training philosophy focuses on understanding dog behaviour to build loving, problem-free relationships between pets and their families.
Through his decades of work, Mark has helped thousands of dogs and their owners, continuously learning from the animals he works with and deepening his bond with them.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from newstalk S EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on news talk s EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
GOODAVI. This is real life and I'm John Cowen. I
love my dogs. They are my fitness equipment, my fury valium,
and they are my mates. And I have an instant
affinity with other dog lovers. And I have a huge
admiration for my guest tonight, who has devoted his life
to enhancing the animal to human bond. Mark Vetti.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Welcome, Mark, Hey, you give it John.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I'm doing well. Now. I'm just going to help out
those people who are scrambling to place the name. Mark
has been on dozens of shows talking about dogs and
dog training and other animals, and written books on the subject.
He's trained dogs for Lord of the Rings and Samurai
and the Narnia films and others, and trained dogs to
drive cars, fly planes, train the Toyota Dog, the Pookackos,
(01:19):
and the on the Genesis ads, and starred in three
TV series and a whole lot. More So, Mark, you're
probably the best known animal trainer in our part of
the world, and you've probably known pretty well around the
world too.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, well, we did have the good fortune to get
around about one hundred and twenty countries. But the two
of the TV series or three of the TV series actually,
so yeah, that was we have jumped around and I
have done work around the world. But yeah, it's really
Kiwi country that I most love. And yeah, and it's
great to have been a contributed to the welfare of
(01:58):
dogs and cats and another species in the zeale and
even a bit of other stuff as well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Good on you. So what do you what do you
call your role when you're doing things for add some
movies and things.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Is it a wrangler or is it a watch what
we call an animal wranglers animal trainers? Yeah, it's that
that's kind of that later role animal behavior, spinster bean zoologist,
but that that all came later, and so your animal
wrangler in that context a animal trainer in film.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Okay, Now, with computers getting smarter and smarter, are you
is that a bit of a threat to your business?
I guess. I mean, you trained a real ball to
walk around a china shop, But I don't know whether
a competitor do that.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, well that's right. I remember when we did the
Genesis Pooky Goes. You know, they came to us at
that time for to do it CGI, but we decided
to go with the real thing, and it always makes
for a better production. I think you can't beat the
real and but you're right CGI and computer Assistant graphics
(03:02):
and stuff that I really used more and more. I
think Nanny was the first big one that we hit
with a major contributions with c g I. But yeah,
and still, I mean there's always a collaboration, almost invariably
with some of the animals, you know, even when you're
using c g I, like Nannya. We all the wolves
were real, but the but a number of the animals,
(03:24):
including the line and so on, where c g I.
So you know, there's a mix of the two, and
some of them are totally CGI, but no real thing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I guess it would have been a little challenging training
the line to talk.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Exactly. Well, I mean that had one. There was the
mice on the ropes, you know, through the road. Yeah
that was live mice, but about fifty or sixty of them,
and yeah, that was a job and r but that
was all fun. And but luckily the line wasn't alive
and we didn't have to work without.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
The wolves that you've you know, you've used in a
couple of moves. Were they real wolves?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah? They were. Yeah. We brought the wolves over from
the States. We had a zoo at that stage and
Bombay Hells, and so we we bought eight wolves in
from the States and a big job to get them in.
It was a huge job because we didn't have wolves
in the zoos even at that stage, so that was
(04:22):
a big job. But yeah, pretty after kind of doing
my original master's research on wolf behavior when I was
in the States way back then. Really i'm pretty good
instead to be able to work with those ones here.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I sometimes try and tell my dogs that they are wolves,
and you know, as sleeping on my bed or wanted
some sort of dainty food or other, your wolves, Heaven's sake.
But it's amazing how I also remind my dogs that
every one of their ancestors for perhaps the last fifteen
thousand years has had a relationship with humans. That's amazing
(04:59):
at that whole track of how humans dogs have come.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Togear, well, it's fifteen to forty thousand. We think it's
as long as forty thousand years that they co evolved
with us. And you know, when you think about it,
it's it's a pretty amazing collaboration. Having worked directly with
wolves and realizing that they're not really dogs. I mean, yes,
they are the ancestor of the dog, undoubtedly, but theyre
one hundred percent the ancestors to the dog. But at
(05:27):
the same time, you know that forty thousand years of
co evolution have turned the dog into something somewhat different.
There's still very much wolf based, you know, there's still
got all the wolf kind of infrastructure, so to speak.
They're but of course we've select them for friending us,
or they selected us actually and gathered around us and
became our companions. And then over the latter kind of
(05:51):
any in the last two undred years, we've actually selected
them into four hundred different breeds. But yeah, so it's
a collaboration between us and then mister there's some that
say that that collaboration back when we were hunting gather
has actually saved us from extinction, you know, because they
were very successful predator at the time in Eurasia and
we were a faltering predator. But at the same time,
(06:13):
once we gathered forces and managed to work away in
a world that was pretty pretty ferocious and you know,
giant hyaenas and saber tooth tigers and all the different
things that we were up against them, and we were
very lucky to have a wolf companions at our side
to help survive through that time.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, I'm very glad I've got my too many schnauss
to protect me from saber tooth tigers.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Then it what we've done to change them to some degree,
I remember doing it computer cats anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I remember doing psychology and we're working with laborats
and they're about the only four legged and fury animals
that I can't really get very attached to. But we
were warned about anthropomorphism projecting onto animal behavior human characteristics,
but it's so darn easy with dogs. They seem to
(07:06):
have human shaped emotions.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well it is, And I mean back in those days,
I don't know how long are you your degrees, but
in those days when I was doing in behavior at
university and found that there certainly was very much that
kind of stigma about, you know, kind of calling human
(07:29):
emotions on dogs and other animals. But as we've actually
got deeper into you know, the science, the neuroscience and
the science and cognitive sciences of dogs and other species
that we do know that they do have the same
feelings that we have, and maybe not exactly the same,
but you know, they're a mammal. We've got all the
same basic neurological you know, and neurochemical basis too, you know,
(07:54):
all of their emotions.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So when we're looking.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
It's certainly something that we're now starting to realize they're
much closer to us in that sense than we even
begin to think. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So when we're looking gouiy eyed at the puppy, I
don't mean with conjunctivitis, I mean, you know that soppy
emotion that puppies bring out in this and they're looking
back at us. Is it really love or is it
just some instinct that's been hijacked.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
No, it's well, it's that we now know from the
research at the same levels of oxytocin that and that's
the that's the bonding hormone, the love hormone, and and
don't mean that stimulated through then another urochemicals. But basically
the oxytocin is about the same level as we have
towards our children and our family members. And similarly, the
(08:42):
dogs have the same level of oxytocin back. So you know,
that's that's probably what we qualify as as the main
measure of what we call love and and so no,
they and they are highly social species, you know, And
and so they're attachment. We call it attachment relationship and
science you know that. And so that attachment relationship is
(09:04):
very similar and some and my dog's in books and
puppies in books. I talked very deeply about that relationship
and those hormones and how they play a big part.
And when you consider that that not only do those hormones,
you know, stimulate that love response or that companionship response
we have, has incredibly valuable effects on our on our
(09:24):
health as well, you know, and not just that, but
I don't mean and the various other euro chemicals that
are stimulated, and you know, and of course the attachment
that we have and therefore the relationship that we have
is very very kin to you our relationship. There's there's
surrogate kids really in many ways they're not kids, but
they're very close to it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, well, I don't think we'll make comparisons on
on air when my own kids could be listening about
which which are better. But they will get a surprise
when they read. But will But anyhow, I'd love to
know what drew you into the hairy world of dogs
that you mentioned doing. Yeah, well, wolf research and that.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, well that's right. I I mean I go back
to probably six when I know and those I have
read my memoirs zan Hart. You know, you'll see back
when I was six that I had a German shepherd
and and cat and and so that was the start
of my It was probably a nightmare of that state
because he was killing cats and we were doing all
(10:27):
different stuff. It set me off on the path. I'm
going to work out how this dog dog's mind works,
because I would love to be able to solve this issue.
I had a good fortune and my grandfather who was
a dog trainer in the war, so I but yeah,
I went on to to do my you know, work
with dogs, to farming and various other ways all through
my life. And then yeah, ago engaged in the zoology
(10:51):
university and then went on to into the States and
study wolves and become animal behaviorist and and do my
master's and complete Yeah, that that's kind of where I
began in that sense, and that led to my clinical
work treating behavior problems and dogs and cats, you know,
and then moved into film as well. And yeah, in
(11:14):
other areas that I work and you know, in terms
of welfare and teaching and verse stuff. Yeah, well, you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Will immersed immersed into the world of animals. But I
know that you have a very huge human side as well,
and I look forward to talking about that after the break.
You've already mentioned how the zen is in the title
of that memoir that you're right, but you've incorporated in
the title of the number of books, and I want
to talk about how your philosophies and attitudes to life
(11:41):
impact not just your work of animals, but with the
whole of your life as well. I'm talking with Mark Vetti,
animal trainer and animal with movies and helping people with
their all sorts of difficulties with their animals, and we'll
be talking with them, coming.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Up intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news talks.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Be fun.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It is arms she fell as.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
He welcome back to real life. Every week we ask
our guests to pick a song which has some meeting
or significance to them. My guest tonight is animal trainer
Mark Vetti, and he's pecked fields of gold by sting.
Has that got some significance to you.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Mart, Yes, it's got a lot of significance. Ex See.
Then some people might remember the Herald one one day
on the front page came out with bugger across a
big black page with bugger on it, and we lost
hercules the bugger dog, the toy, the bugger Dog. It
was my probably my greatest dog of what's certainly one
(12:56):
of them. You maybe that they were Driving Dog and
the Flying Dog, those would probably be the top ones,
but he was. He was one. He was one of
the first ones and very special. And the day died,
we the TV and Z Steve did a piece on
him and on his life, and yeah, they played that
song and of course it still brings tears, Tomies. It
(13:18):
was such a great dog. He was, you know, one
hundred and fifty commands, if could do anything. It was
just one of those very special dogs that did many, many,
many movies and many ads. And yeah, he was he
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely the worst thing about owning a dog
is that you you know that you love them, and
then they go and die. And I'm probably embarrassed to
say that I've probably shed more tears over pets dying
than over my parents, but it's probably true.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, well I lost three last year and it was
a he just you know, a real real knocks knocks
the hell out of be done that. But yeah, they're short,
short lived, but they come in with a bang and
go out with a bang, and they're every special.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Short bright lives. Now in your books and you refer
to puppy zen dog zen zen hearts, and I'm not
too sure that I know what.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
The words coming up.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm not even too sure that I know what zen means.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, zen in that context, I mean, in the first
two books, Dogs In and Puppies In, the focus was
more on the way I trained dogs, you know, which
is about getting them into a copaar of sympathetic arousal
or learning state, which is the same as the meditation state.
To be honest, we're a mindful of state. And so
(14:38):
using techniques that I've learned over the years. You know,
something for example called dog's in down, where you put
your dog in it down and then you get it
to roll it step over. I use clicker training for that,
and it rolls itself over and it activates the vagas nerve,
which switches on parasympathetic, you know, puts them into a
calm learning state. And I learned that by studying wolves
(14:58):
and watching them. When they're sitting up on their brisket,
they're at and pumped and sympathetic arousal the opposite. Then
when they light then when the hip rolls over and
they relax, you see them go into their body tone changes. Well,
that's what you're after as a trainer. You always after
getting the dog capit or whatever you're working with in
the learning state. And so that's and we call it
as the end state as well.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
And so you see the mixing up your understanding of
science with your understanding of our Buddhism. And on your
website you mentioned that you learned a lot from a
famous Buddhist teacher. I can't see in my notes. I went,
I really need to bring up ye.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yes, yes, he was my teacher. He is my teacher,
and I mean he's died just in the last a
few years, but he's he was. You know, I spent
I went and ordained with him in the ninety four
and yeah, I've been practicing about fifteen years in practice
Buddhist practice by then, but we've do over to his
traditions in tradition, and he had the good fortune to
(16:01):
actually train directly under him for different reasons. And he
was he was probably, you know, the greatest, probably is
the greatest, the master of our time.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And I see that Martin Luther King nominated him for
a Nobel Peace Prize.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And I read that he was very emphatic that his
teaching wasn't religious dogma, but rather practical living skills and
therefore compatible with other religion, saying, no religion exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it is, it is, it's a it's a it's
you know, I mean, obviously the budder was a man
and and and the ancestral buddher and so it's and
it's it's very much you know, the dal a Lama calls,
you know, the science of the mind, and and it's
very much So it doesn't require you to have you know,
(16:53):
any kind of uh, you know, kind of beliefs and
something that's not there. It's it's about to be honest,
and Buddhism is very much about compassion and kindness and
and and living in the present moment. How does it
impact your life evenly? You know, I've been in practice
and since I was twenty three, I think, and it's yeah,
(17:15):
it's what it gives you know. And I mean because
I work with animals, you're working with beings that are
very much in the present moment. You know, as you'll
know with your dogs and people know, the cats and
various other species that if you work with any species,
you know they're very present and very and whilst the
humans aspire to that, you know, it's one of our aspirations. Obviously,
Zen practitioners are live fully in the present moment. You know,
(17:38):
invariably we live you know, in the future in the
past a good amount of the time. And it's really
once you sit for yourself and watch through meditation or
mindfleness practice, you know that you have to do exactly that.
I put a.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Challenge to you. I mean, you deal with dogs that
you are an advocate of rescue dogs, and some of
these have been traumatized. Their past comes with them when
they come into your home. They are they may have
been abused or chained up, or beaten or whatever, and
and you say they'd live in the moment, but those
dogs are also living with a very horrible past, and
(18:14):
so how do you bring them back into the loving
present that they might be living in now in your home.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, no, no, you're right. They doesn't doesn't mean they
don't suffer, you know, And I mean we call it
Buddhism the second arrow. The first arrow is the pain
that you suffer from something like that, you know, and
the second arrow is we impose upon ourselves, which is
the dwelling on the you know, we're not dwelling, but
you know, sitting with the suffering for maybe years afterwards.
(18:41):
And and of course that's pretty true dog. But dogs,
although it can affect the behavior significantly, of course it can.
They're very able then to really be rehabilitated and brought back,
you know, with with love and care, you know. But
it's yeah, I think it's it's it's about that the
(19:01):
state of mind that you know when you're working with
a dog or an animal, and the same with the
person on your dog. We done hospice work and very
other different things through my life too, So it doesn't
matter whether it's a human or a dog or you know,
we all, we all have the same emotions, we all
have the same desire to want to have a good,
happy life, and you know, have our needs, Matt and
so on, and so dog needs that as well, so
(19:22):
does a cat, and so it's yeah, it's a matter
of bringing those same skills really, of being truly present
from them, being able to be with them to the
degree that you can actually deeply understand them and see
what's going on for them. Hopefully then have some skills
to transform them, which is the next of course. Then
you've got to cultivate those, which is it's all possible.
(19:43):
And you have transformed some pretty tough cases over time,
and it's it's a very rewarding thing to do, and
you get a lot feedback from the dog. Yeah definitely.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Now you've learned a lot obviously from taking at Hahn.
But have dogs taught you anything? Have dogs taught you
about life? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Definitely definitely. And I call them my dogs in masters,
you know, and yeah, every day, yeah, every day. I mean,
I've got a lovely dog. It's my it's a Golden Retriever,
rested Golden Retriever that he said, just eighty months forty
months of me and every day. You know that you
get that little microdos and you don't mean when he
(20:26):
makes you laugh and when he does something silly, and
but at the same time, you know they're very present
for you. You know, unconditional love. You know that's what's
something for humans. You know that we you know that
we really you know, not maybe not crave for, but
really like to have as is. They're one of those species,
one of those animals that really does give you unconditional love.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It's hard that the people that are cat people listening
to this haven't got a clue what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I've got to be kid writing at the moment.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oh you're writing cats in Okay? Maybe okay, maybe there.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, don't under is to make cats either. There. Although
they've their ancestry of solitary species, they've adapted to humans beautifully.
But we do say dogs, they've owners get their start,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
What do people get wrong most often when it comes
to training their dogs and trying to shape them into
their family life?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, I mean absolutely fun. The reason I wrote Puppies
in was after fifty forty five fifty years of clinical
work working with dogs in a serious cases, lots of
aggression casts of different problems, and I worked with a
good fortune when I was in America. One stage, I
worked with John Paul Scott, which is the father of
(21:51):
critical period theory and dogs critical period of socialization, and
that three to sixteen week period is their formative period.
That's when the wolf grows up with its pack and
then by four months old they head out hunting. So
that window in there is the socialization window. And so
(22:11):
one of the most critical things that people should understand
with the dog is that formative period can't be changed.
And if, of course it's time to getting vaccinated as well,
so oftentimes you know you'll get advice to not take
them out till that's all finished, and that can be
at four months, which is too late. So that formative period.
If I was to say, what's the most important thing,
(22:32):
you need to socialize your dog with people, other dogs,
and other species through the formative period to make sure
that that dog is going to fit into our communities
and our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Mark, I could be talking with you for hours, but
unfortunately we're crashing into the end of the hour. Mark
Vetti has been my guest tonight. I do check out
his website which is dogzend dot com. You can even
book sessions with Mark or other maybe some other trainer,
I'm not too sure, but lots and lots of advice
and interesting stuff on dogsen dot com. Check out his
(23:04):
books too. Mark has been an absolute provilegehould talk to you.
We'll go out on another song that you picked. Witches.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah. So we've got all us yesternight and we am
blake majoric woman. Great.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Thanks Jo, Thank you so much for taking time to
be with us. My pleasure, Jesus Real life on News
Talks b I John Cow I'm looking forward to being
back with you again next Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
For more from News Talks at B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from newstalk S EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on news talk s EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
GOODAVI. This is real life and I'm John Cowen. I
love my dogs. They are my fitness equipment, my fury valium,
and they are my mates. And I have an instant
affinity with other dog lovers. And I have a huge
admiration for my guest tonight, who has devoted his life
to enhancing the animal to human bond. Mark Vetti.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Welcome, Mark, Hey, you give it John.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I'm doing well. Now. I'm just going to help out
those people who are scrambling to place the name. Mark
has been on dozens of shows talking about dogs and
dog training and other animals, and written books on the subject.
He's trained dogs for Lord of the Rings and Samurai
and the Narnia films and others, and trained dogs to
drive cars, fly planes, train the Toyota Dog, the Pookackos,
(01:19):
and the on the Genesis ads, and starred in three
TV series and a whole lot. More So, Mark, you're
probably the best known animal trainer in our part of
the world, and you've probably known pretty well around the
world too.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, well, we did have the good fortune to get
around about one hundred and twenty countries. But the two
of the TV series or three of the TV series actually,
so yeah, that was we have jumped around and I
have done work around the world. But yeah, it's really
Kiwi country that I most love. And yeah, and it's
great to have been a contributed to the welfare of
(01:58):
dogs and cats and another species in the zeale and
even a bit of other stuff as well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Good on you. So what do you what do you
call your role when you're doing things for add some
movies and things.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Is it a wrangler or is it a watch what
we call an animal wranglers animal trainers? Yeah, it's that
that's kind of that later role animal behavior, spinster bean zoologist,
but that that all came later, and so your animal
wrangler in that context a animal trainer in film.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Okay, Now, with computers getting smarter and smarter, are you
is that a bit of a threat to your business?
I guess. I mean, you trained a real ball to
walk around a china shop, But I don't know whether
a competitor do that.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, well that's right. I remember when we did the
Genesis Pooky Goes. You know, they came to us at
that time for to do it CGI, but we decided
to go with the real thing, and it always makes
for a better production. I think you can't beat the
real and but you're right CGI and computer Assistant graphics
(03:02):
and stuff that I really used more and more. I
think Nanny was the first big one that we hit
with a major contributions with c g I. But yeah,
and still, I mean there's always a collaboration, almost invariably
with some of the animals, you know, even when you're
using c g I, like Nannya. We all the wolves
were real, but the but a number of the animals,
(03:24):
including the line and so on, where c g I.
So you know, there's a mix of the two, and
some of them are totally CGI, but no real thing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I guess it would have been a little challenging training
the line to talk.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Exactly. Well, I mean that had one. There was the
mice on the ropes, you know, through the road. Yeah
that was live mice, but about fifty or sixty of them,
and yeah, that was a job and r but that
was all fun. And but luckily the line wasn't alive
and we didn't have to work without.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
The wolves that you've you know, you've used in a
couple of moves. Were they real wolves?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah? They were. Yeah. We brought the wolves over from
the States. We had a zoo at that stage and
Bombay Hells, and so we we bought eight wolves in
from the States and a big job to get them in.
It was a huge job because we didn't have wolves
in the zoos even at that stage, so that was
(04:22):
a big job. But yeah, pretty after kind of doing
my original master's research on wolf behavior when I was
in the States way back then. Really i'm pretty good
instead to be able to work with those ones here.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I sometimes try and tell my dogs that they are wolves,
and you know, as sleeping on my bed or wanted
some sort of dainty food or other, your wolves, Heaven's sake.
But it's amazing how I also remind my dogs that
every one of their ancestors for perhaps the last fifteen
thousand years has had a relationship with humans. That's amazing
(04:59):
at that whole track of how humans dogs have come.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Togear, well, it's fifteen to forty thousand. We think it's
as long as forty thousand years that they co evolved
with us. And you know, when you think about it,
it's it's a pretty amazing collaboration. Having worked directly with
wolves and realizing that they're not really dogs. I mean, yes,
they are the ancestor of the dog, undoubtedly, but theyre
one hundred percent the ancestors to the dog. But at
(05:27):
the same time, you know that forty thousand years of
co evolution have turned the dog into something somewhat different.
There's still very much wolf based, you know, there's still
got all the wolf kind of infrastructure, so to speak.
They're but of course we've select them for friending us,
or they selected us actually and gathered around us and
became our companions. And then over the latter kind of
(05:51):
any in the last two undred years, we've actually selected
them into four hundred different breeds. But yeah, so it's
a collaboration between us and then mister there's some that
say that that collaboration back when we were hunting gather
has actually saved us from extinction, you know, because they
were very successful predator at the time in Eurasia and
we were a faltering predator. But at the same time,
(06:13):
once we gathered forces and managed to work away in
a world that was pretty pretty ferocious and you know,
giant hyaenas and saber tooth tigers and all the different
things that we were up against them, and we were
very lucky to have a wolf companions at our side
to help survive through that time.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, I'm very glad I've got my too many schnauss
to protect me from saber tooth tigers.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Then it what we've done to change them to some degree,
I remember doing it computer cats anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I remember doing psychology and we're working with laborats
and they're about the only four legged and fury animals
that I can't really get very attached to. But we
were warned about anthropomorphism projecting onto animal behavior human characteristics,
but it's so darn easy with dogs. They seem to
(07:06):
have human shaped emotions.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well it is, And I mean back in those days,
I don't know how long are you your degrees, but
in those days when I was doing in behavior at
university and found that there certainly was very much that
kind of stigma about, you know, kind of calling human
(07:29):
emotions on dogs and other animals. But as we've actually
got deeper into you know, the science, the neuroscience and
the science and cognitive sciences of dogs and other species
that we do know that they do have the same
feelings that we have, and maybe not exactly the same,
but you know, they're a mammal. We've got all the
same basic neurological you know, and neurochemical basis too, you know,
(07:54):
all of their emotions.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So when we're looking.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
It's certainly something that we're now starting to realize they're
much closer to us in that sense than we even
begin to think. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So when we're looking gouiy eyed at the puppy, I
don't mean with conjunctivitis, I mean, you know that soppy
emotion that puppies bring out in this and they're looking
back at us. Is it really love or is it
just some instinct that's been hijacked.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
No, it's well, it's that we now know from the
research at the same levels of oxytocin that and that's
the that's the bonding hormone, the love hormone, and and
don't mean that stimulated through then another urochemicals. But basically
the oxytocin is about the same level as we have
towards our children and our family members. And similarly, the
(08:42):
dogs have the same level of oxytocin back. So you know,
that's that's probably what we qualify as as the main
measure of what we call love and and so no,
they and they are highly social species, you know, And
and so they're attachment. We call it attachment relationship and
science you know that. And so that attachment relationship is
(09:04):
very similar and some and my dog's in books and
puppies in books. I talked very deeply about that relationship
and those hormones and how they play a big part.
And when you consider that that not only do those hormones,
you know, stimulate that love response or that companionship response
we have, has incredibly valuable effects on our on our
(09:24):
health as well, you know, and not just that, but
I don't mean and the various other euro chemicals that
are stimulated, and you know, and of course the attachment
that we have and therefore the relationship that we have
is very very kin to you our relationship. There's there's
surrogate kids really in many ways they're not kids, but
they're very close to it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, well, I don't think we'll make comparisons on
on air when my own kids could be listening about
which which are better. But they will get a surprise
when they read. But will But anyhow, I'd love to
know what drew you into the hairy world of dogs
that you mentioned doing. Yeah, well, wolf research and that.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, well that's right. I I mean I go back
to probably six when I know and those I have
read my memoirs zan Hart. You know, you'll see back
when I was six that I had a German shepherd
and and cat and and so that was the start
of my It was probably a nightmare of that state
because he was killing cats and we were doing all
(10:27):
different stuff. It set me off on the path. I'm
going to work out how this dog dog's mind works,
because I would love to be able to solve this issue.
I had a good fortune and my grandfather who was
a dog trainer in the war, so I but yeah,
I went on to to do my you know, work
with dogs, to farming and various other ways all through
my life. And then yeah, ago engaged in the zoology
(10:51):
university and then went on to into the States and
study wolves and become animal behaviorist and and do my
master's and complete Yeah, that that's kind of where I
began in that sense, and that led to my clinical
work treating behavior problems and dogs and cats, you know,
and then moved into film as well. And yeah, in
(11:14):
other areas that I work and you know, in terms
of welfare and teaching and verse stuff. Yeah, well, you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Will immersed immersed into the world of animals. But I
know that you have a very huge human side as well,
and I look forward to talking about that after the break.
You've already mentioned how the zen is in the title
of that memoir that you're right, but you've incorporated in
the title of the number of books, and I want
to talk about how your philosophies and attitudes to life
(11:41):
impact not just your work of animals, but with the
whole of your life as well. I'm talking with Mark Vetti,
animal trainer and animal with movies and helping people with
their all sorts of difficulties with their animals, and we'll
be talking with them, coming.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Up intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news talks.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Be fun.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It is arms she fell as.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
He welcome back to real life. Every week we ask
our guests to pick a song which has some meeting
or significance to them. My guest tonight is animal trainer
Mark Vetti, and he's pecked fields of gold by sting.
Has that got some significance to you.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Mart, Yes, it's got a lot of significance. Ex See.
Then some people might remember the Herald one one day
on the front page came out with bugger across a
big black page with bugger on it, and we lost
hercules the bugger dog, the toy, the bugger Dog. It
was my probably my greatest dog of what's certainly one
(12:56):
of them. You maybe that they were Driving Dog and
the Flying Dog, those would probably be the top ones,
but he was. He was one. He was one of
the first ones and very special. And the day died,
we the TV and Z Steve did a piece on
him and on his life, and yeah, they played that
song and of course it still brings tears, Tomies. It
(13:18):
was such a great dog. He was, you know, one
hundred and fifty commands, if could do anything. It was
just one of those very special dogs that did many, many,
many movies and many ads. And yeah, he was he
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely the worst thing about owning a dog
is that you you know that you love them, and
then they go and die. And I'm probably embarrassed to
say that I've probably shed more tears over pets dying
than over my parents, but it's probably true.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, well I lost three last year and it was
a he just you know, a real real knocks knocks
the hell out of be done that. But yeah, they're short,
short lived, but they come in with a bang and
go out with a bang, and they're every special.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Short bright lives. Now in your books and you refer
to puppy zen dog zen zen hearts, and I'm not
too sure that I know what.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
The words coming up.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm not even too sure that I know what zen means.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, zen in that context, I mean, in the first
two books, Dogs In and Puppies In, the focus was
more on the way I trained dogs, you know, which
is about getting them into a copaar of sympathetic arousal
or learning state, which is the same as the meditation state.
To be honest, we're a mindful of state. And so
(14:38):
using techniques that I've learned over the years. You know,
something for example called dog's in down, where you put
your dog in it down and then you get it
to roll it step over. I use clicker training for that,
and it rolls itself over and it activates the vagas nerve,
which switches on parasympathetic, you know, puts them into a
calm learning state. And I learned that by studying wolves
(14:58):
and watching them. When they're sitting up on their brisket,
they're at and pumped and sympathetic arousal the opposite. Then
when they light then when the hip rolls over and
they relax, you see them go into their body tone changes. Well,
that's what you're after as a trainer. You always after
getting the dog capit or whatever you're working with in
the learning state. And so that's and we call it
as the end state as well.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
And so you see the mixing up your understanding of
science with your understanding of our Buddhism. And on your
website you mentioned that you learned a lot from a
famous Buddhist teacher. I can't see in my notes. I went,
I really need to bring up ye.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yes, yes, he was my teacher. He is my teacher,
and I mean he's died just in the last a
few years, but he's he was. You know, I spent
I went and ordained with him in the ninety four
and yeah, I've been practicing about fifteen years in practice
Buddhist practice by then, but we've do over to his
traditions in tradition, and he had the good fortune to
(16:01):
actually train directly under him for different reasons. And he
was he was probably, you know, the greatest, probably is
the greatest, the master of our time.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And I see that Martin Luther King nominated him for
a Nobel Peace Prize.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And I read that he was very emphatic that his
teaching wasn't religious dogma, but rather practical living skills and
therefore compatible with other religion, saying, no religion exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, it is, it is, it's a it's a it's
you know, I mean, obviously the budder was a man
and and and the ancestral buddher and so it's and
it's it's very much you know, the dal a Lama calls,
you know, the science of the mind, and and it's
very much So it doesn't require you to have you know,
(16:53):
any kind of uh, you know, kind of beliefs and
something that's not there. It's it's about to be honest,
and Buddhism is very much about compassion and kindness and
and and living in the present moment. How does it
impact your life evenly? You know, I've been in practice
and since I was twenty three, I think, and it's yeah,
(17:15):
it's what it gives you know. And I mean because
I work with animals, you're working with beings that are
very much in the present moment. You know, as you'll
know with your dogs and people know, the cats and
various other species that if you work with any species,
you know they're very present and very and whilst the
humans aspire to that, you know, it's one of our aspirations. Obviously,
Zen practitioners are live fully in the present moment. You know,
(17:38):
invariably we live you know, in the future in the
past a good amount of the time. And it's really
once you sit for yourself and watch through meditation or
mindfleness practice, you know that you have to do exactly that.
I put a.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Challenge to you. I mean, you deal with dogs that
you are an advocate of rescue dogs, and some of
these have been traumatized. Their past comes with them when
they come into your home. They are they may have
been abused or chained up, or beaten or whatever, and
and you say they'd live in the moment, but those
dogs are also living with a very horrible past, and
(18:14):
so how do you bring them back into the loving
present that they might be living in now in your home.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, no, no, you're right. They doesn't doesn't mean they
don't suffer, you know, And I mean we call it
Buddhism the second arrow. The first arrow is the pain
that you suffer from something like that, you know, and
the second arrow is we impose upon ourselves, which is
the dwelling on the you know, we're not dwelling, but
you know, sitting with the suffering for maybe years afterwards.
(18:41):
And and of course that's pretty true dog. But dogs,
although it can affect the behavior significantly, of course it can.
They're very able then to really be rehabilitated and brought back,
you know, with with love and care, you know. But
it's yeah, I think it's it's it's about that the
(19:01):
state of mind that you know when you're working with
a dog or an animal, and the same with the
person on your dog. We done hospice work and very
other different things through my life too, So it doesn't
matter whether it's a human or a dog or you know,
we all, we all have the same emotions, we all
have the same desire to want to have a good,
happy life, and you know, have our needs, Matt and
so on, and so dog needs that as well, so
(19:22):
does a cat, and so it's yeah, it's a matter
of bringing those same skills really, of being truly present
from them, being able to be with them to the
degree that you can actually deeply understand them and see
what's going on for them. Hopefully then have some skills
to transform them, which is the next of course. Then
you've got to cultivate those, which is it's all possible.
(19:43):
And you have transformed some pretty tough cases over time,
and it's it's a very rewarding thing to do, and
you get a lot feedback from the dog. Yeah definitely.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Now you've learned a lot obviously from taking at Hahn.
But have dogs taught you anything? Have dogs taught you
about life? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Definitely definitely. And I call them my dogs in masters,
you know, and yeah, every day, yeah, every day. I mean,
I've got a lovely dog. It's my it's a Golden Retriever,
rested Golden Retriever that he said, just eighty months forty
months of me and every day. You know that you
get that little microdos and you don't mean when he
(20:26):
makes you laugh and when he does something silly, and
but at the same time, you know they're very present
for you. You know, unconditional love. You know that's what's
something for humans. You know that we you know that
we really you know, not maybe not crave for, but
really like to have as is. They're one of those species,
one of those animals that really does give you unconditional love.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It's hard that the people that are cat people listening
to this haven't got a clue what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I've got to be kid writing at the moment.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oh you're writing cats in Okay? Maybe okay, maybe there.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, don't under is to make cats either. There. Although
they've their ancestry of solitary species, they've adapted to humans beautifully.
But we do say dogs, they've owners get their start,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
What do people get wrong most often when it comes
to training their dogs and trying to shape them into
their family life?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, I mean absolutely fun. The reason I wrote Puppies
in was after fifty forty five fifty years of clinical
work working with dogs in a serious cases, lots of
aggression casts of different problems, and I worked with a
good fortune when I was in America. One stage, I
worked with John Paul Scott, which is the father of
(21:51):
critical period theory and dogs critical period of socialization, and
that three to sixteen week period is their formative period.
That's when the wolf grows up with its pack and
then by four months old they head out hunting. So
that window in there is the socialization window. And so
(22:11):
one of the most critical things that people should understand
with the dog is that formative period can't be changed.
And if, of course it's time to getting vaccinated as well,
so oftentimes you know you'll get advice to not take
them out till that's all finished, and that can be
at four months, which is too late. So that formative period.
If I was to say, what's the most important thing,
(22:32):
you need to socialize your dog with people, other dogs,
and other species through the formative period to make sure
that that dog is going to fit into our communities
and our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Mark, I could be talking with you for hours, but
unfortunately we're crashing into the end of the hour. Mark
Vetti has been my guest tonight. I do check out
his website which is dogzend dot com. You can even
book sessions with Mark or other maybe some other trainer,
I'm not too sure, but lots and lots of advice
and interesting stuff on dogsen dot com. Check out his
(23:04):
books too. Mark has been an absolute provilegehould talk to you.
We'll go out on another song that you picked. Witches.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah. So we've got all us yesternight and we am
blake majoric woman. Great.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Thanks Jo, Thank you so much for taking time to
be with us. My pleasure, Jesus Real life on News
Talks b I John Cow I'm looking forward to being
back with you again next Sunday night.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
For more from News Talks at B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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