May 11, 2025 • 22 mins
Rachel’s debut novel, See How They Fall, will be published this year by Hachette in Australia and New Zealand and by Penzler Publishers in the United States. The screen rights have been optioned by a Hollywood production company, and Rachel is part of the 2024/2025 International Thriller Writers Debut Authors Program.
She holds a Master of Creative Writing (First Class Honours) from the University of Auckland, where she was awarded the Phoenix Prize for best creative portfolio. Before turning to fiction, Rachel built a successful international legal career, with degrees from Harvard Law School and the University of Auckland. Her Harvard dissertation was cited as “influential” in a Wall Street Journal editorial.
Rachel spent many years in London as a law firm partner and was consistently recognised as a leading lawyer in global legal directories. She received the Sir Peter Blake Emerging Leader Award for her advocacy on behalf of women in law and for driving diversity and inclusion in the profession. She now lives in Auckland with her family.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk Z EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Get a welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen. A
very happy Mother's Day to you and some others have
had an especially good day because they would have been
gifted a fantastic book written by my guest tonight, Rachel Parris,
whose debut novel is called See How They Fall, and
it's been sowing up the bestseller lists and has even
been optioned by Hollywood. So welcome Rachel, and congratulations on
(00:56):
your first book out of the ranks and it's going
so well.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Thanks for having me, John, listen to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
That's great. Now Rachel's career sort of, it's it's your
new chapter in life because you've already had a very
successful legal career twenty years as a lawyer, and it's
a great story in itself, which will come to But
first of all, I want to talk a bit about
the story within the classy covers of your new book,
So we've got to be careful not to give away
(01:24):
too many spoilers, but give us a brief introduction to
see How They Fall?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Right, okay, So See How They Fall is described as
a twisty thriller. It's a book that centers on the
Turner family, who are the wealthiest family in Australia, obviously
completely fictional, and they own a luxury goods empire and
at the start of the book, the patriarchs who Campbell
Turner has just passed away and so his three adult
(01:54):
sons get together at a beautiful home north of Sydney
and they are sort of there to talk about his
will and affairs. But there's an unexpected illegitimate heir who
shows up and a few power struggles, and by the
end of the weekend, one of the family members is
dead and another one's left fighting for their life and
that's sort of the very start of the book. So
(02:16):
from there it unravels into sort of working out who
did it and why, who's responsible for the tragedy, and also,
you know, there's a whole bunch of other things going on.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So yeah, absolutely, blood and money. I believe that's a
recipe that describes quite a few books. I guess that
would apply to this one as well. The pull of
family and power and influence and the sense of immunity
that comes when you're famous and rich.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, that's it. So a good juicy story tends to,
as you said, to have those two elements of the
sort of blood, the family ties and money, which is
always the economic circumstances. I think that drives most people's behavior.
And so I decided to set the story in this territory,
I guess because it's just it's so juicy for any drama.
(03:10):
I think imbalance across society but also in relationships is
really interesting to explore. And so having the Turners is
this incredibly wealthy, really powerful family, and having a tragedy unfold,
and watching how they deal with law enforcement, the media
and all of the other people that are sort of
(03:30):
in their sites is you know, it's not sadly, it's
not fiction. It's what we see happen in daily life.
But it was a really interesting place to begin a story.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Where you begin it is from the perspective of a mother.
It's quite interesting that we're talking on Mother's Day because
that's your that's I guess, how we get some traction
with this type of family that we wouldn't normally be
able to identify with. I mean, I don't really know
families like that, that a megal wealthy. I don't even
know if New Zealand has any people that are like
the Turner family. It's more of an Australian thing, isn't
(04:06):
it that?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, I mean absolutely Sadly, I'm not talking from experience.
I'm not a billionaire with private jets. But I definitely
did start the story from the perspective of a mother
writing about her relationship with her daughter, because for me,
I wanted to write something personal. I have got three children,
and the story for me began about the sort of
motherhood bond. And then I started imagining a situation where
(04:28):
there was danger presented towards a child and maybe danger
from a family. And then as I started writing, the
Turner family took shape and I, again, as we were discussed,
have loaded them with power and money and influence, and I,
you know, I know New Zealand of course has some
really wealthy families, but in my experience living here in
(04:50):
Auckland and being involved in various bits and pieces, you
do meet wealthy families, but they do tend to be
quite low key, very generous definitely not the toxic types
that you see with the Turners. And so then I
sort of looked further afield in Australia. Not to bag Aussies,
I've got lots of buzzie families, but they have these
very powerful dynasties that no one around the world, and
(05:11):
so it seemed like an actual home for the story.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, the Turner family sounds particularly rotten, and I enjoyed
disliking them right from the outset. But were they modeled
in some sense in your ideas of you know, the
stories that have been coming out in the last decades
about you know, Epstein and Weinstein and dare I mention
(05:34):
the royal family?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
But yeah, of course, I mean it's so good that
you mentioned it, because as I was writing the story,
as I mentioned about it sort of being a mum
in this danger, and I was writing it sort of
in the aftermath of Me Too. There had been all
of the coverage of heavy Weinstein and Epstein and all
of these criminals, and I think I was beginning to
think about this confluence of power and money and how
(05:58):
these guys got away for decades with this atrocious behavior
sort of in plain sight and nobody called them to account,
and that is quite a terrific thing. You know, we
sort of expect that if people are behaving badly, they
will be found, you know, they will be tried and
sort of brought to justice. But actually it sort of
(06:19):
felt in the aftermath of Me Too, like there were
people that got away because they were wealthy and powerful,
and so I thought there was a really scary thing
to explore on what became a thriller.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah. I hope that there is a change of weather
in the world the Me Too movement, but also just
that sense of we don't like to see anyone being
able to short circuit the legal system. I would hope
even PEPs the President of the America anyhow.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah right, I mean, look, I'm an internal optimist and
I've got legal training. I mean, sadly, I wasn't a
fighter for human rights. I was a banking and finance
or you can't hold that against me, But I definitely
am an optimist that the justice will prevail. Having said
all of that, I think there has been a real
fatigue with me too and women's rights. We only need
(07:07):
to look to the rise of the Manisphere. We've got
the likes of Andrew Tates spouting sort of vitriol, and
even the Trump administration with their sort of policies.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Which you definitely misogynous.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Absolutely like some of it seen as a correction against
a movement that went too far. I think other people
would see it as an undermining of progress. I think
wherever you lie in the political spectrum, there's no question
that sort of this, this violence against women. And I
mean New Zealand is an incredibly lucky country in terms
compared to other places in the world. I'm very glad
I'm a woman living here and I've got a daughter
(07:42):
that I'm raising here. But I don't think we can
be complacent about these issues. And so that was one
of the motivations for the book is, you know, we
just need to check on our friends, our sisters, our
you know, just make sure people are okay.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Now, you say you're not a civil rights lawyer. You're
in commercial law and very successful career in that. But
I was interested in a quote that you've picked to
on your Instagram page. It was from Tony Morrison and
it says, we write and that is how civilizations heal.
(08:17):
And I wonder whether you consciously actually even to see
something like a book where you're writing where that the
it's a who done it? And them's that done it
get their come uppances, and it's correcting of violence against
women and children. Do you see this as sort of, yes,
let's write, let's write a better civilization.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Gosh, well, I definitely would not otherwise put myself in
the same sentence as Tony Morrison. But I do think
that there is a role for the arts, and literature
is part of that for addressing some of these home truths.
And I think the reason we read and we go
to art galleries and we sort of get involved in
these pursuits is because we want to shine a light
(09:00):
on certain behaviors and try and find a way forward. So,
you know, for me, it was funny when I wrote
the story, I literally sat down and wrote a story.
I didn't have a list of issues or concerns or
themes or anything like that. It wasn't to their editing
process where I looked back on what I'd written and
reflected and thought, you know, there is a reason I
wrote the story I wrote, and some of the things
(09:22):
that are important to me in my personal life definitely
came out in that book. It wasn't an intentional thing.
I think a lot of people feel that way when
they sit down and do something creative.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, that obviously flowed from something in your heart, in
that it does have that I don't know what you
call it, almost sort of like a corrective of something
rotten in the world.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, I wrote for change, perhaps is what's behind it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And again, without wanting to spoil anything in the plot,
there is the instances where there are villains who are
deeply loved by innocent parties, and this idea of how
much guilt devolves onto the innocent party of the partner
(10:09):
of someone who's done something terrible, and how much can
they forgive and are they culpable?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's such a good question, and I think something deeply
confusing to people that are put in that situation. You know,
as a mum and a wife and a daughter, you know,
I always would believe my family members. I'm personally very
lucky that the people in my life are incredible humans.
And this is all very fictional, but you know, there
are plenty of people, women in particular, that might find
(10:36):
themselves in a relationship with somebody who turns out not
to be the person they believed at the beginning, and
this may only be revealed later in life. And I
think in the end you've got to come back to
your value system and your sense of right and wrong,
and hope that you've got a network that can support
you to make the right decision. But I have no
(10:56):
doubt that it's incredibly confusing when the person that you
love and have committed your life to, in the case
of Sky, you know, presents you with a very difficult
moral dilemma, which is effectively what happens.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, Oh well, your book certainly got lots of things
like that to chew over, and so if you were
just going to reading it through as a thriller, as
who done it, there's certainly plenty in that too. But
there's lots and lots of color and texture and threads
and extra things to chew over in there as well.
If you've just joined us, my guest tonight Rachel Paris,
(11:31):
whose first book is See How They Fall, and it's
doing very very well in the shops and it's been
option for Hollywood. We'll talk a bit a bit about
that later on, and we'll be talking a bit more
about how she after decades as a lawyer decided to
become a novelist. This is real life on Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news
Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Welcome back to real life. I'm talking with author Rachel
Paris about her book See How They Fall to also
talking to Rachel Paris about Rachel Paris and PEPs. I'll
start by asking why did you pick that Tracy Chapman song.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Gosh, it takes me back to when I was a
teenager at high school, and I think Tracy had recently
come out with that song. And then she came to
Auckland and did a performance out at Carloor Park in
paral And back before it was a car park or
whatever it is now, and we watched her on stage
with the guitar that was it, and she blew my mind.
(12:30):
And I think, all these years later, I just think
it's such a beautiful, timeless song.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So yeah, it certainly is beautiful and a powerful protest
song too, against some of the things in society that
are happening. Were you a budding writer, a nascent novelist,
even right back then listening to Tracy Chapman, did you
have the dream of becoming an author back as a
school kid.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I definitely did have aspirations cerdainly as a younger kid,
you know, like when I was at primary school, I
was always writing and if you'd asked me then I
would have said, yes, of course I'm going to be
a writer. And then I think by high school I
was a bit more realistic and I didn't really know
people that did that sort of thing for a proper job,
and my parents were very much you know, definitely gave
(13:17):
me the direction that you need to go and be
financially independent. You need to be able to fine for yourself,
you know, don't depend on a man for you know,
your future. Make sure you can always look after yourself.
And so I channeled my energies more towards getting into
law school and that sort of thing. But have always written.
I just didn't show anyone until a few years ago.
So it's been a secret, kind of guilty pleasure.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I would say, well, actually you were writing while you
were studying. You had a column in the NBR.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Oh my gosh, you've really done your homework. I couldn't
believe you know about that. So yeah, So I mean
I have delved into writing over the years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
And yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So one of my jobs when I was a UNI
student was that I had a column for the National
Business Review called Campus Comment. That just takes me back,
my goodness, someone's went to that in years and so
I used to. I was actually quite quite right wing
back in those days. I think i'd taken some economics
paperism is a bit, you know, sort of what's the word,
(14:12):
probably slightly unsophisticated in my thinking. I think now I'm
much more centrist because as you grow up and you
sort of see how the world really operates, you temper
your ideals a little bit with what's going on in
the world. So I yeah, but there was a fun It's.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Interesting how you describe yourself as a right wing back
at university. And it obviously got under the skin of
some of the left wing lecturers because I read that
one of them was offended that you were writing for
the NBR and charged you seventy five dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yes, oh my goodness, how did you find this out?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yes, interview them, And to.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Be honest, I mean I sort of went the wrong
way around it. I think most people at university are
very left wing and become all right wingers. They make money.
I'm gone the opposite way. Sort of started off in
the Chicago school and I've definitely become you know, I
think I sort of yeah, I just think you're maturing early.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I remember hearing someone say, whoever, it isn't a right
winger by the age of the he hasn't got a brain.
Who isn't a left winger by the age of forty,
hasn't got a heart. Now that's going to get up
the noses of some people listening.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I mean, we don't want to get into potees, but
definitely I think there's a place for making your own
way in the world and self responsibility. I think there's
a place for philanthropy as well.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So yeah, so he became a lawyer and you went
off and studied at Harvard. Yes, that would have been
an eye opener for you.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
That was definitely a gap year for me. I had
been working at my law firm, Bell Gully as a
great you know, like a junior lawyer for a couple
of years, and then I thought at that stage I
was really thinking about a career, you know, with the
World Bank or the UN or something. That was sort
of where I thought I was heading. But I met
my husband Jason as a student over New Years and
(15:51):
so we had actually become engaged and he was going
to come to the US, but then nine to eleven
had happened and he couldn't get a visa, so he
had to stay here and work. Well. I was swarming
around at Harvard, having a great time.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And picking up a master's, picking up masters.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I'm going to have to do some work, but it
was a really great way to meet people from all
around the world.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I was sort of undressing. You describe it as a
gap year that for most people that conjures up opinion,
you know, ideas of working at a bar in London,
but no, you're doing your master's at Harbert. You know what.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
It was as much about just the life experience as
it was about, you know, the academic side of things.
And it definitely opened my eyes. I mean, there was
a lot going on. The weapons of mass destruction were
sort of on the radar, and so there was a
war breaking out. People were becoming incredibly patriotic. So it
was a very interesting time to be in the US
(16:42):
because before I went there, I had expected it to
be very familiar from a cultural perspective, and then I
got there.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's stranger when you think, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It kind of is. You know, there was a lot
to get my head around, but it was also an
incredibly enriching year. I met really interesting people, and I
think just grew up a lot and sort of was
ready for that next chapter.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You mentioned that you got engaged. Now, I'd have to
say in your book there's men that don't come across
very well. Some of them are a very odious villains.
Can I can you say something nice about your own men?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Oh? Yeah, my husband Jason, who we're about to celebrate,
gosh about twenty three years of marriage and twenty six
years together. I mean, he is the most incredible man
I've ever met. I've also got an amazing dad, brother,
two beautiful sons, So the men in my life are incredible.
So it's sort of I do feel a bit guilty
the men of my book and not so lovely stand
(17:37):
by for book two that will be addressed. But to
be fair, the story is told through the eyes of
two women who have had a pretty rough time of it,
So I think if you look at you know, their perspective,
they're entitled to their views. But yes, John, I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
You meant that I have to go far to find
me in the world, But I'm glad of good ones.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, I think the bad woman, I mean, I think
we're all capable of good and bad behavior just happens.
This particular group of men are not very nice, but
certainly that's not my perception of men generally.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Just sort of now, So you shelved the idea of
writing to pursue your law career, which I did very successfully.
He became a partner at Bell Gully I think was
it the youngest and partner that had there. But also
they let you do it part time so that you
could write a screenplay. So obviously this writing thing that
(18:28):
did have a bit of a bite, a bit of
a hold on you. Yes, I'm going to again.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I can't believe you drenched this up from the archive.
So yes, I have always wanted to write, and I
think after having my first child, Sam, who has just
turned eighteen, so this is a long time ago, I
had one of those moments of like, oh my goodness,
you know, I've really got to figure out what I'm
doing with my life. And I was going to have
a year off on maternity leave, and so It's fair
(18:55):
to say I did not know many babies, and I
thought a baby would just sit there acutely in the
corner while I wrote this beautiful screenplay. Sam arrived. He
is a gorgeous eighteen year old. As a baby, he
had reflex and colic and he did not sleep. And
you know, I had no idea, that's right, I had
(19:17):
no idea what I was doing. And it's complete fool
and so I mean mother had is hard, right, especially
that first year, and so it definitely, yeah, it was
a rude awakening. But I got my you know, got
to grips with it, and my sister and I co
wrote the screenplay, and I think I saw that as like,
if I don't do it now, it's ever going to happen.
I have always had this urgency about me, which is
(19:40):
probably slightly ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That must have been heartbreaking that it didn't come to pass.
It sounds like a wonderful idea about the Middle March.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
It was, you know what, at the time, it was frustrating.
So we it was optioned by South Pacific. It went
into three years of development, so it was they went
through three different heads of development in that time. So
it was definitely a process of you get your hopes
up and then someone comes in and they're like, oh,
you should change this and should change that, and your
hopes go down. And then you know, while we're both
(20:08):
my sister and I running big jobs, having kids, and
after about three years it sort of it hadn't gone anywhere.
We shelved it, and yeah, it's fair to say I
was devastated, and for a long time I saw that
as a massive failure. I look back now, and with
the benefit of twenty years almost of hindsight, I think,
thank goodness it didn't come to pass because I just
(20:30):
was not ready. Well, first of all, I'm not sure
it was the story I really wanted to hell to tell.
And secondly, hey, i'd.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Watch it, so I put it off the shelf forgets. Yes,
coming to the end of the hour, it's been great
talking to you. But how did you actually move make
a move from being a lawyer to being a writer?
What was finally the thing you thought I've got to
do that I got to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well it's a long story, but I will keep it brief.
My sister I'm very close to was diagnosed with very
aggressive breast cancer. We went through a hideous two year
treatment process. She came out the other Chestkents free has
been for three years now. That made me sit up
and think, these opportunities are not going to land in
my lap. I have to do something. So I googled
(21:19):
writing classes near me and the university course up at
Auckland came up in my search and that prompted me
to apply. And that was sort of the first step
and what ended up being quite a long process to
write a book and get it published right now.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
The writing course obviously gave you a lot of critiquing
and everything like that. And just a final thought, how
do you find being a writer? I mean, I've said
someone describe writing as easy. You just your keyboard until
you sweat blood. Is it hard to be your writer?
Or harder being a lawyer?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Much harder being a writer in the sense that you're
putting your soul on the line to be judged. But
the hours are much better in some ways, and you don't, yeah,
get paid very well.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Your dogs a cat probably appreciate having your I.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Love having me home. Yes, it's pretty special, folks.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You'd be doing yourself a service if you But you've
bought a copy of this book, see how They Fall.
It's available through is It MOA.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
The Publishers Press imprinted, but you can get it at
which Cools or Paper Plus or your independent bookstores.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
A great read and it's been fantastic talking to you, Rachel.
Thank you so much for coming into Vistin.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
This is real life. I'm John Cown. I've been talking
to Rachel Paris and she's picked Hallelujah.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That will go out on for more from News Talks
B listen live on air or online, and keep our
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iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk Z EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Get a welcome to real Life. I'm John Cowen. A
very happy Mother's Day to you and some others have
had an especially good day because they would have been
gifted a fantastic book written by my guest tonight, Rachel Parris,
whose debut novel is called See How They Fall, and
it's been sowing up the bestseller lists and has even
been optioned by Hollywood. So welcome Rachel, and congratulations on
(00:56):
your first book out of the ranks and it's going
so well.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Thanks for having me, John, listen to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
That's great. Now Rachel's career sort of, it's it's your
new chapter in life because you've already had a very
successful legal career twenty years as a lawyer, and it's
a great story in itself, which will come to But
first of all, I want to talk a bit about
the story within the classy covers of your new book,
So we've got to be careful not to give away
(01:24):
too many spoilers, but give us a brief introduction to
see How They Fall?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Right, okay, So See How They Fall is described as
a twisty thriller. It's a book that centers on the
Turner family, who are the wealthiest family in Australia, obviously
completely fictional, and they own a luxury goods empire and
at the start of the book, the patriarchs who Campbell
Turner has just passed away and so his three adult
(01:54):
sons get together at a beautiful home north of Sydney
and they are sort of there to talk about his
will and affairs. But there's an unexpected illegitimate heir who
shows up and a few power struggles, and by the
end of the weekend, one of the family members is
dead and another one's left fighting for their life and
that's sort of the very start of the book. So
(02:16):
from there it unravels into sort of working out who
did it and why, who's responsible for the tragedy, and also,
you know, there's a whole bunch of other things going on.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So yeah, absolutely, blood and money. I believe that's a
recipe that describes quite a few books. I guess that
would apply to this one as well. The pull of
family and power and influence and the sense of immunity
that comes when you're famous and rich.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, that's it. So a good juicy story tends to,
as you said, to have those two elements of the
sort of blood, the family ties and money, which is
always the economic circumstances. I think that drives most people's behavior.
And so I decided to set the story in this territory,
I guess because it's just it's so juicy for any drama.
(03:10):
I think imbalance across society but also in relationships is
really interesting to explore. And so having the Turners is
this incredibly wealthy, really powerful family, and having a tragedy unfold,
and watching how they deal with law enforcement, the media
and all of the other people that are sort of
(03:30):
in their sites is you know, it's not sadly, it's
not fiction. It's what we see happen in daily life.
But it was a really interesting place to begin a story.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Where you begin it is from the perspective of a mother.
It's quite interesting that we're talking on Mother's Day because
that's your that's I guess, how we get some traction
with this type of family that we wouldn't normally be
able to identify with. I mean, I don't really know
families like that, that a megal wealthy. I don't even
know if New Zealand has any people that are like
the Turner family. It's more of an Australian thing, isn't
(04:06):
it that?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, I mean absolutely Sadly, I'm not talking from experience.
I'm not a billionaire with private jets. But I definitely
did start the story from the perspective of a mother
writing about her relationship with her daughter, because for me,
I wanted to write something personal. I have got three children,
and the story for me began about the sort of
motherhood bond. And then I started imagining a situation where
(04:28):
there was danger presented towards a child and maybe danger
from a family. And then as I started writing, the
Turner family took shape and I, again, as we were discussed,
have loaded them with power and money and influence, and I,
you know, I know New Zealand of course has some
really wealthy families, but in my experience living here in
(04:50):
Auckland and being involved in various bits and pieces, you
do meet wealthy families, but they do tend to be
quite low key, very generous definitely not the toxic types
that you see with the Turners. And so then I
sort of looked further afield in Australia. Not to bag Aussies,
I've got lots of buzzie families, but they have these
very powerful dynasties that no one around the world, and
(05:11):
so it seemed like an actual home for the story.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, the Turner family sounds particularly rotten, and I enjoyed
disliking them right from the outset. But were they modeled
in some sense in your ideas of you know, the
stories that have been coming out in the last decades
about you know, Epstein and Weinstein and dare I mention
(05:34):
the royal family?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
But yeah, of course, I mean it's so good that
you mentioned it, because as I was writing the story,
as I mentioned about it sort of being a mum
in this danger, and I was writing it sort of
in the aftermath of Me Too. There had been all
of the coverage of heavy Weinstein and Epstein and all
of these criminals, and I think I was beginning to
think about this confluence of power and money and how
(05:58):
these guys got away for decades with this atrocious behavior
sort of in plain sight and nobody called them to account,
and that is quite a terrific thing. You know, we
sort of expect that if people are behaving badly, they
will be found, you know, they will be tried and
sort of brought to justice. But actually it sort of
(06:19):
felt in the aftermath of Me Too, like there were
people that got away because they were wealthy and powerful,
and so I thought there was a really scary thing
to explore on what became a thriller.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah. I hope that there is a change of weather
in the world the Me Too movement, but also just
that sense of we don't like to see anyone being
able to short circuit the legal system. I would hope
even PEPs the President of the America anyhow.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah right, I mean, look, I'm an internal optimist and
I've got legal training. I mean, sadly, I wasn't a
fighter for human rights. I was a banking and finance
or you can't hold that against me, But I definitely
am an optimist that the justice will prevail. Having said
all of that, I think there has been a real
fatigue with me too and women's rights. We only need
(07:07):
to look to the rise of the Manisphere. We've got
the likes of Andrew Tates spouting sort of vitriol, and
even the Trump administration with their sort of policies.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Which you definitely misogynous.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Absolutely like some of it seen as a correction against
a movement that went too far. I think other people
would see it as an undermining of progress. I think
wherever you lie in the political spectrum, there's no question
that sort of this, this violence against women. And I
mean New Zealand is an incredibly lucky country in terms
compared to other places in the world. I'm very glad
I'm a woman living here and I've got a daughter
(07:42):
that I'm raising here. But I don't think we can
be complacent about these issues. And so that was one
of the motivations for the book is, you know, we
just need to check on our friends, our sisters, our
you know, just make sure people are okay.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Now, you say you're not a civil rights lawyer. You're
in commercial law and very successful career in that. But
I was interested in a quote that you've picked to
on your Instagram page. It was from Tony Morrison and
it says, we write and that is how civilizations heal.
(08:17):
And I wonder whether you consciously actually even to see
something like a book where you're writing where that the
it's a who done it? And them's that done it
get their come uppances, and it's correcting of violence against
women and children. Do you see this as sort of, yes,
let's write, let's write a better civilization.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Gosh, well, I definitely would not otherwise put myself in
the same sentence as Tony Morrison. But I do think
that there is a role for the arts, and literature
is part of that for addressing some of these home truths.
And I think the reason we read and we go
to art galleries and we sort of get involved in
these pursuits is because we want to shine a light
(09:00):
on certain behaviors and try and find a way forward. So,
you know, for me, it was funny when I wrote
the story, I literally sat down and wrote a story.
I didn't have a list of issues or concerns or
themes or anything like that. It wasn't to their editing
process where I looked back on what I'd written and
reflected and thought, you know, there is a reason I
wrote the story I wrote, and some of the things
(09:22):
that are important to me in my personal life definitely
came out in that book. It wasn't an intentional thing.
I think a lot of people feel that way when
they sit down and do something creative.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, that obviously flowed from something in your heart, in
that it does have that I don't know what you
call it, almost sort of like a corrective of something
rotten in the world.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, I wrote for change, perhaps is what's behind it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And again, without wanting to spoil anything in the plot,
there is the instances where there are villains who are
deeply loved by innocent parties, and this idea of how
much guilt devolves onto the innocent party of the partner
(10:09):
of someone who's done something terrible, and how much can
they forgive and are they culpable?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's such a good question, and I think something deeply
confusing to people that are put in that situation. You know,
as a mum and a wife and a daughter, you know,
I always would believe my family members. I'm personally very
lucky that the people in my life are incredible humans.
And this is all very fictional, but you know, there
are plenty of people, women in particular, that might find
(10:36):
themselves in a relationship with somebody who turns out not
to be the person they believed at the beginning, and
this may only be revealed later in life. And I
think in the end you've got to come back to
your value system and your sense of right and wrong,
and hope that you've got a network that can support
you to make the right decision. But I have no
(10:56):
doubt that it's incredibly confusing when the person that you
love and have committed your life to, in the case
of Sky, you know, presents you with a very difficult
moral dilemma, which is effectively what happens.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, Oh well, your book certainly got lots of things
like that to chew over, and so if you were
just going to reading it through as a thriller, as
who done it, there's certainly plenty in that too. But
there's lots and lots of color and texture and threads
and extra things to chew over in there as well.
If you've just joined us, my guest tonight Rachel Paris,
(11:31):
whose first book is See How They Fall, and it's
doing very very well in the shops and it's been
option for Hollywood. We'll talk a bit a bit about
that later on, and we'll be talking a bit more
about how she after decades as a lawyer decided to
become a novelist. This is real life on Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on news
Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Welcome back to real life. I'm talking with author Rachel
Paris about her book See How They Fall to also
talking to Rachel Paris about Rachel Paris and PEPs. I'll
start by asking why did you pick that Tracy Chapman song.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Gosh, it takes me back to when I was a
teenager at high school, and I think Tracy had recently
come out with that song. And then she came to
Auckland and did a performance out at Carloor Park in
paral And back before it was a car park or
whatever it is now, and we watched her on stage
with the guitar that was it, and she blew my mind.
(12:30):
And I think, all these years later, I just think
it's such a beautiful, timeless song.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So yeah, it certainly is beautiful and a powerful protest
song too, against some of the things in society that
are happening. Were you a budding writer, a nascent novelist,
even right back then listening to Tracy Chapman, did you
have the dream of becoming an author back as a
school kid.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I definitely did have aspirations cerdainly as a younger kid,
you know, like when I was at primary school, I
was always writing and if you'd asked me then I
would have said, yes, of course I'm going to be
a writer. And then I think by high school I
was a bit more realistic and I didn't really know
people that did that sort of thing for a proper job,
and my parents were very much you know, definitely gave
(13:17):
me the direction that you need to go and be
financially independent. You need to be able to fine for yourself,
you know, don't depend on a man for you know,
your future. Make sure you can always look after yourself.
And so I channeled my energies more towards getting into
law school and that sort of thing. But have always written.
I just didn't show anyone until a few years ago.
So it's been a secret, kind of guilty pleasure.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I would say, well, actually you were writing while you
were studying. You had a column in the NBR.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Oh my gosh, you've really done your homework. I couldn't
believe you know about that. So yeah, So I mean
I have delved into writing over the years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
And yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So one of my jobs when I was a UNI
student was that I had a column for the National
Business Review called Campus Comment. That just takes me back,
my goodness, someone's went to that in years and so
I used to. I was actually quite quite right wing
back in those days. I think i'd taken some economics
paperism is a bit, you know, sort of what's the word,
(14:12):
probably slightly unsophisticated in my thinking. I think now I'm
much more centrist because as you grow up and you
sort of see how the world really operates, you temper
your ideals a little bit with what's going on in
the world. So I yeah, but there was a fun It's.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Interesting how you describe yourself as a right wing back
at university. And it obviously got under the skin of
some of the left wing lecturers because I read that
one of them was offended that you were writing for
the NBR and charged you seventy five dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yes, oh my goodness, how did you find this out?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yes, interview them, And to.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Be honest, I mean I sort of went the wrong
way around it. I think most people at university are
very left wing and become all right wingers. They make money.
I'm gone the opposite way. Sort of started off in
the Chicago school and I've definitely become you know, I
think I sort of yeah, I just think you're maturing early.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I remember hearing someone say, whoever, it isn't a right
winger by the age of the he hasn't got a brain.
Who isn't a left winger by the age of forty,
hasn't got a heart. Now that's going to get up
the noses of some people listening.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I mean, we don't want to get into potees, but
definitely I think there's a place for making your own
way in the world and self responsibility. I think there's
a place for philanthropy as well.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So yeah, so he became a lawyer and you went
off and studied at Harvard. Yes, that would have been
an eye opener for you.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
That was definitely a gap year for me. I had
been working at my law firm, Bell Gully as a
great you know, like a junior lawyer for a couple
of years, and then I thought at that stage I
was really thinking about a career, you know, with the
World Bank or the UN or something. That was sort
of where I thought I was heading. But I met
my husband Jason as a student over New Years and
(15:51):
so we had actually become engaged and he was going
to come to the US, but then nine to eleven
had happened and he couldn't get a visa, so he
had to stay here and work. Well. I was swarming
around at Harvard, having a great time.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And picking up a master's, picking up masters.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I'm going to have to do some work, but it
was a really great way to meet people from all
around the world.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I was sort of undressing. You describe it as a
gap year that for most people that conjures up opinion,
you know, ideas of working at a bar in London,
but no, you're doing your master's at Harbert. You know what.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
It was as much about just the life experience as
it was about, you know, the academic side of things.
And it definitely opened my eyes. I mean, there was
a lot going on. The weapons of mass destruction were
sort of on the radar, and so there was a
war breaking out. People were becoming incredibly patriotic. So it
was a very interesting time to be in the US
(16:42):
because before I went there, I had expected it to
be very familiar from a cultural perspective, and then I
got there.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's stranger when you think, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
It kind of is. You know, there was a lot
to get my head around, but it was also an
incredibly enriching year. I met really interesting people, and I
think just grew up a lot and sort of was
ready for that next chapter.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You mentioned that you got engaged. Now, I'd have to
say in your book there's men that don't come across
very well. Some of them are a very odious villains.
Can I can you say something nice about your own men?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Oh? Yeah, my husband Jason, who we're about to celebrate,
gosh about twenty three years of marriage and twenty six
years together. I mean, he is the most incredible man
I've ever met. I've also got an amazing dad, brother,
two beautiful sons, So the men in my life are incredible.
So it's sort of I do feel a bit guilty
the men of my book and not so lovely stand
(17:37):
by for book two that will be addressed. But to
be fair, the story is told through the eyes of
two women who have had a pretty rough time of it,
So I think if you look at you know, their perspective,
they're entitled to their views. But yes, John, I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
You meant that I have to go far to find
me in the world, But I'm glad of good ones.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, I think the bad woman, I mean, I think
we're all capable of good and bad behavior just happens.
This particular group of men are not very nice, but
certainly that's not my perception of men generally.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Just sort of now, So you shelved the idea of
writing to pursue your law career, which I did very successfully.
He became a partner at Bell Gully I think was
it the youngest and partner that had there. But also
they let you do it part time so that you
could write a screenplay. So obviously this writing thing that
(18:28):
did have a bit of a bite, a bit of
a hold on you. Yes, I'm going to again.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I can't believe you drenched this up from the archive.
So yes, I have always wanted to write, and I
think after having my first child, Sam, who has just
turned eighteen, so this is a long time ago, I
had one of those moments of like, oh my goodness,
you know, I've really got to figure out what I'm
doing with my life. And I was going to have
a year off on maternity leave, and so It's fair
(18:55):
to say I did not know many babies, and I
thought a baby would just sit there acutely in the
corner while I wrote this beautiful screenplay. Sam arrived. He
is a gorgeous eighteen year old. As a baby, he
had reflex and colic and he did not sleep. And
you know, I had no idea, that's right, I had
(19:17):
no idea what I was doing. And it's complete fool
and so I mean mother had is hard, right, especially
that first year, and so it definitely, yeah, it was
a rude awakening. But I got my you know, got
to grips with it, and my sister and I co
wrote the screenplay, and I think I saw that as like,
if I don't do it now, it's ever going to happen.
I have always had this urgency about me, which is
(19:40):
probably slightly ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That must have been heartbreaking that it didn't come to pass.
It sounds like a wonderful idea about the Middle March.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
It was, you know what, at the time, it was frustrating.
So we it was optioned by South Pacific. It went
into three years of development, so it was they went
through three different heads of development in that time. So
it was definitely a process of you get your hopes
up and then someone comes in and they're like, oh,
you should change this and should change that, and your
hopes go down. And then you know, while we're both
(20:08):
my sister and I running big jobs, having kids, and
after about three years it sort of it hadn't gone anywhere.
We shelved it, and yeah, it's fair to say I
was devastated, and for a long time I saw that
as a massive failure. I look back now, and with
the benefit of twenty years almost of hindsight, I think,
thank goodness it didn't come to pass because I just
(20:30):
was not ready. Well, first of all, I'm not sure
it was the story I really wanted to hell to tell.
And secondly, hey, i'd.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Watch it, so I put it off the shelf forgets. Yes,
coming to the end of the hour, it's been great
talking to you. But how did you actually move make
a move from being a lawyer to being a writer?
What was finally the thing you thought I've got to
do that I got to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well it's a long story, but I will keep it brief.
My sister I'm very close to was diagnosed with very
aggressive breast cancer. We went through a hideous two year
treatment process. She came out the other Chestkents free has
been for three years now. That made me sit up
and think, these opportunities are not going to land in
my lap. I have to do something. So I googled
(21:19):
writing classes near me and the university course up at
Auckland came up in my search and that prompted me
to apply. And that was sort of the first step
and what ended up being quite a long process to
write a book and get it published right now.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
The writing course obviously gave you a lot of critiquing
and everything like that. And just a final thought, how
do you find being a writer? I mean, I've said
someone describe writing as easy. You just your keyboard until
you sweat blood. Is it hard to be your writer?
Or harder being a lawyer?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Much harder being a writer in the sense that you're
putting your soul on the line to be judged. But
the hours are much better in some ways, and you don't, yeah,
get paid very well.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Your dogs a cat probably appreciate having your I.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Love having me home. Yes, it's pretty special, folks.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You'd be doing yourself a service if you But you've
bought a copy of this book, see how They Fall.
It's available through is It MOA.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
The Publishers Press imprinted, but you can get it at
which Cools or Paper Plus or your independent bookstores.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
A great read and it's been fantastic talking to you, Rachel.
Thank you so much for coming into Vistin.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
This is real life. I'm John Cown. I've been talking
to Rachel Paris and she's picked Hallelujah.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That will go out on for more from News Talks
B listen live on air or online, and keep our
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