June 23, 2024 • 41 mins
There are many different ways of seeking financial advice and new DIY ways of investing, but how does that impact the method of stock-picking - and have we become overconfident in stock picking?
Ben Brinkerhoff, the Head of Advice at Consilium, joined the Weekend Collective to give his insight.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from news Talk
sedb OH Sunday morning.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Don't you know?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Lots of body just losing light. It's a lusty well
the born Could that be Alloy Mac the name from
a Jack Ball.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I had a very good afternoon t If you have
just joined us or welcome back? Should I say? I'm
Tim Beverages. Is the Weekend Collective and this is smart money.
By the way, if you missed the hour we had
with Leslie from Trenton Hearing Leslie Smith, who's the head
of audiology, you can go to any of the other
hours of course, including politics. You can go and check
out the podcast. Just look for the Weekend Collective, go
(00:55):
to iHeartRadio and away you go. I do love a
little bit of Robbie Williams. I'm not sure it was
ever a huge fan of his until he did the
Swing perfour months where he was live at the Albert Hall.
And actually the guy sort of gets it so and
I was wondering what is he doing these days? And he's, look,
he's probably just my producer saying he should do more swing.
And I said, I think Robbie's just spending his money
(01:16):
which ends up being quite a nice seguey because he
could tune into this hour and get some good advice.
We have a new guest in the studio today and
his name is Ben Brinkerhove. He's from Concilium is known
as Concilium Partners. Did I say Consilium Partner Services? And anyway, Ben,
good a, how are you going?
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Thank you, Tim, I'm feeling pretty good. Nice to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for coming on. Hey, look, firstly, just
tell us a little bit because it's good for the
listeners to get a handle on who you are and
where you're coming from. Well, I can hear a twang
of an accent there, just just subtly. But you've been
in New Zealand for a little bit of a little
bit of time. When did you get here?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
I arrived to New Zealand, would you believe it? Into
christ Church in January twenty eleven. Now that wasn't good timing, Not.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Twenty eleven from the birth of my daughter, which was
a month later and was just a few days after
the earthquake. So he arrived in christ Church a month
before I.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Arrived into christ Church. My fourth daughter, Petra was born.
Oh my goodness in early February. Oh wow, started a
new job and suddenly city was broken. Yeah, gosh, that's
the hell of a start. What made you come to
New Zealand in the first place? Well, why does a
(02:34):
man do anything? Really?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Philosophy?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Would you believe that there was a beautiful woman involved? Okay, yes, yes, yes,
would you believe that?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
So my wife moved over to America for about five
or six years, but always wanted to move back to
New Zealand. I had thought to myself that maybe once
we moved over there we put down roots and that,
and that we'd be able to stay. But you can't.
You can't really take the key wei out of a girl.
Speaker 6 (03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
She was real eager to come back and raise our
children here.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
And well, obviously you were great because you're still here.
Why does a man do anything? I was actually thinking
this is but of course for the love of his life.
Of course, there we go and Concilient Partner Services. What's
tell us about what you guys do? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:23):
So Concilium was started around twenty eleven when I got
there with a couple partners, and the object was how
could we create the conditions where it was easier to
give great independent advice. You know, independent advice. It's the
advice you get. We don't have any inducements. It's the Yeah,
(03:45):
it's the advice you get. You get when the only
one who pays you is your client. That's the best
kind of advice. And it's difficult to give independent advice
because you have to have to all your research, you
have to do all your compliance, you have to do
all your own marketing, you have to run your own business.
So we try to make the conditions for independent advisors
to thrive.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Is it actually just is it hard to convince people?
Were a suspicious a lot in New Zealand? And is
it hard to convince people? Or what's the journey you
go on when you when it comes to explaining what
independence looks like and what it means and how can
people can rely on it, etc.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, it's a journey. I mean when I came to
New Zealand, I had to get my head around the
idea that in this country there was a huge web
of term deposits and there is a big love of property,
and there was less comfort around advice and around wealth management.
And even if people were familiar with wealth management, they
(04:46):
weren't necessarily using an advisor, or they kind of thought
their advisor's job was to pick the right things rather
than to give them a strategy to achieve what they want.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
It's because how much of the decision when you're giving
independent advice. Of course it's advised, you're not how much
of it the decision making is left up to the
pliant And of course it is the decision, But a
lot of people sort of want to be told what
to do. They're like, well, what are you telling me
to do? And you're like, well, we're giving you this information,
we're advising of these options. I mean, how far down
(05:19):
the driving the car for them? Do you do? Yes?
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So, when you're sitting down with someone to help deliver
a strategy, the first thing you need to figure out
with them is what they want and do you want.
People are terrified of tim finding out that there's no hope.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, they're terrified of that.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
People hate the word goals, Like if I ask you
what's your financial goal? Like you you know a little shudder.
I hate that word goal because I think it's psychologically
it's almost like I don't want to put the answer
out into the universe because what if I actually don't
don't achieve it, and I'm terrified of I'm not achieving it,
(06:00):
So I'd rather just not have one.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
I reckon that would be incredibly common. I probably have
suffered from that, or suffered from that myself, I think,
and I think a lot of people listening would relate
to that.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
It's I liken it too. When I was at university
and I'd come out of an exam and someone would say, oh,
how'd you do? And even if I thought I did well,
I'd say, oh, I think I did okay. Yeah, why
am I saying that I actually think I did better
than okay?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Well, you're being humble these a little both.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I'm American, I'm allowed. I hate it the uh because
I don't want. The last thing I want is to
have actually done done uh, done badly and then have
told someone I did well. So I think when you're
creating a financial goal, there's this fear, there's this fear
of setting h an objective and falling short of that,
(06:51):
and so I think people just kind of cruise through
a little bit without setting them and of course they
end up where they end up, but maybe less than
what they could have had if they thought about it carefully.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, because how how well? Yeah, how difficult is it
to set a financial goal? Because I can imagine that
it would be a goal where it could constantly shift anyway,
because maybe is the first thing. Just have some sort
of goal. Let's have something we can work with, and
then we'll start from there. No, you don't start with goals,
(07:24):
Oh you don't, do you know what you start with?
Tim You start with values. So values are tend to
be enduring. Goals change your your life's circumstances change. Your
parents may have left you an inheritance, maybe you lost
your job. They're gonna be good and bad things that
happened to you along the way. But your values and
your values are there to set your priorities, and your
(07:46):
priorities should reflect your finances.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
What I do with my money should reflect what I
actually truly value in this life, and so often they don't.
And if I don't know what your values are, how
am I going to give you wise counsel so that
you're actually making financial decisions where your life makes sense.
Speaker 7 (08:05):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
That's an interesting one because when you mentioned that, I
think if I was to talk to you, say, what
are your values, and BlimE me. I guess the first
thing that came into my mind when you mentioned that
was I've got kids and I want to give them
and hopefully I leave them something which gives them reason
not to be so worried about their own financial features.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
HM.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
That's an incredibly important value. And imagine that you're talking
to someone about that, and I'm asking you about your values,
and I might ask questions like, well, what's important about
money to you?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
And you're giving me a choice.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
You might okay, choice, and then I say to myself
or say to you about what's important about choice? And
you might say something about freedom. Freedom, Great, Well what's
important about freedom? See, we're going deeper everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
And I'd say, do I have to explain that you do?
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Because you know, when you're in front of someone.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Oh that's really interesting, I say. You just keep it's
almost like the Socratic method and digging down to what
you find. You just keep asking questions.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Not my job to tell you what's important to you.
It's not even my job to prioritize your financial decisions.
It's my job to understand you as a person and
who has values. Because if you have a strategy that
reflects your view of the world, and that could be
about your children. So let's say we get at the
end of this process and you've total what you talked
(09:28):
a lot about being a provider for your children. Then
essentially your strategy financially needs to lead to outcomes which
reflect that truth.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Okay, I can imagine someone listening going, how on what
do you mean values? Because I want to have I
want to have a good investment strategy, because I want
to travel when I'm older, I want to be able
free to do what I want. And they don't see
it as a value proposition. But what values does that
normally boil down to?
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Freedom is a value absolutely? And what does financial freedom mean?
Is that financial freedom from I don't have to work anymore,
that's freedom from or is it freedom too?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Because for some people they just don't want to worry.
I mean, I think how much I wonder how many
people don't worry about money, because I have a suspicion
that you have to have quite a lot of money.
Should I say more than quite a lot a lot
of money before it ceases to be something that keeps
you awake at night? Because people say I want I'd
(10:30):
like to have another you know, I'd like to earn
another fifty thousand a year or something, And yet as
soon as they do that, their expectations and their values there, well,
they spend that money pretty quickly. Is so, Actually, I
don't know where I was going with that.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
I guess you're saying, how much money do I have
to have until I no longer worry about money? And
then you answer a question by saying, no, the more
the more money I have, the more and more stuff
I have, the more stuff I have to be I
have to be mindful of and care for.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
I don't think you ever get to the bottom of that.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
In my view, if you have a lot of wealth,
it means you have a lot of assets, and good
stewardship of those assets is probably how you got there
in the first place. So you never let yourself not
care about how you steward your money.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Okay, So what's the first thing you so you the
first thing you want to do when you made a
client is you just want to get to know them
really absolutely.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
You want to ask a lot of questions if for
your listeners, just I mean, I work with about one
hundred and fifty advisory firms across the country. Financial advisors
are my clients, as it were, and the clients of Concilium,
and in some ways I'm like a business coach for them.
I try to help them be the best is what
they could be. I was a financial advisor back in
(11:42):
the States. And here's a hint. If you're sitting down
with a financial advisor and the financial advisor does most
of the talking, then you're in front of the wrong
financial advisor. Okay, the best financial advisors will ask lots
and lots of questions and do lots of listening because
you cannot devise a strategy until you know what matters
(12:05):
to someone.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Right, Okay, gosh, there's a lot to get my head
around with that. Actually, by the way, have you noticed
a change in the way New Zealanders are are viewing
financial investment, because obviously we see the headlines around property
are not as flash as they were. There used to
(12:27):
be the time in New Zealand where we could do
money and we'd get text saying, oh, just what do
you mean to do? Just leverage and get into property.
It's a no brainer. It feels a lot more complex
now and now we've seen conversations shifting to I think
Key was a bit more interested in shares and equity
investments and other ways of investing. Of course, everyone wants
to buy in Vidia twenty years ago.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Yeah, I mean when it was a gaming chip maker
that no one really knew about it, rightly.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Yeah, so, and of course we've got platforms like Shares's
and stuff like that. What's your take on shares's and
the DIY sat of things. When you someone who is involved,
you know, deeply in analyzing good investments and providing tell
you a story.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Back before I had any financial advising credentials, I was
an economist, you know, for my sins. And I remember
I went on to allocate my money, my my retirement
money as an economist, and I logged on the platform
and I went to choose between different investments. And you
(13:36):
know what methodology I now as an economist, I had
taken a lot of finance courses at university, Yeah I had.
I had even taken a course on investing at university.
And so I come out and I'm looking at a
lot of various different options. And what I did is
I sorted. I sorted the ones that did well over
(13:59):
what I thought was a long time arison five or
ten years, and I put them to the top of
the list, and the ones that did badly. And you
know what the investments that had done the very best
in the I don't know previous five or ten years
were they were financial financial companies. So and this was
about like two thousand and six, two thousand and seven,
and over the previous ten years, financial companies and banks
(14:22):
and things like this had done fantastically well. Well, do
you know what happened to financial companies in the in
in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I think the I don't want to put it colloquially,
but they didn't do so well.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
They did awfully. And I thought to myself, here I am,
you know, having had some formal education being an economist,
and I fell into the trap of it's done well,
it will do well. I'm going to be smarter than
everybody because I'm going to invest in the things that
did well recently.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
It's a bit like becoming a fan of Manchester United
at the end of their really good run, because I'm
not sure if they're as good as they use anyway.
I'm just that's not.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Analogy for the Crusaders.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sorry I should have used that one. It's like, it's
like putting all the money on the Crusaders this season
because of seven previous wins without understanding actually there is
an analogy for investment here though, isn't there? Isn't there well,
because if you were to look at the Crusaders, they've
had seven six I'm sorry Canterbury people, my apologies. I
(15:23):
do kind of feel your paying because I love christ
Church and I've got so many good friends and family
down there. But anyway, nevertheles, I'm going to stick the
knife in now. But is it fair to have in
an analogy that you look at the previous seven years
of the Crusaders and go, wow, those guys are winning team.
I'm going to stick a lot of my money on
the Crusaders this year without looking at the underpinning important
(15:47):
facets of what made that such a successful team. And
arguably there is one person who is now the All
Blacks coach who's no longer there. And if you didn't
know that, we're the difference between knowing and not knowing that.
In other words, you look at successful company and there's
something that's changed on I My analogy is going to
fall over because you're going to point to other things
(16:08):
that are the reasons that it was a bad idea.
But anyway, you guys, I was going to say, look,
if you'd knowne that Scott Robertson was leaving, then you
might just be you might just hold back some of
that money.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
So here's the thing about investing. What people look at
mostly more than anything else, is recent good performance of
the investment, either the share or the managed fund or
whatever it is. And they will conclude to themselves that
what has done well will do well. And I hate
to burst anyone's bubble, but that is a awful way
(16:39):
of selecting anything. There's many, many studies that show that
recent good performance is not predictive a future performance.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Well, it's also sounds like a disclaimer you often here
as well.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Well, there's disclaimers there for a reason. And the reason
that disclaimer rest to be there. So many people believe it. Okay,
it's and it's listen, and you think to yourself, if
not for recent good performance, then what is the basis
of selecting an investment.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, so it is.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
It is a little bit confusing. But if you're going
down the line of the do yourself or approach. Yeah,
this is the approach that I think is most intuitively appealing. Unfortunately,
there's not good information in it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Okay, So if you are interested, we're going to take
we're going to take a break into right now. But
if you are someone who's interested in the DIY and
especially things like Chase's, and actually we should mention there
are other companies that do the Shaza's thing, because we're
going not just make this an in commercial by accident
for Chairs's. But if you are wanting to make some
of your own decisions on investing and you want to
get in the share market, how are you making your
(17:42):
decisions or investing or are you waiting with baked breath
to see what Ben Brinkerhof from Concilium says after the break.
But you can give us a call and pick us
brains right now on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
You can text on nine to nine to two and
we can do that right now. Jump on at twenty
four past five News talks edb how is how is Dargan.
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Speaker 1 (19:00):
Helping you get on top of your busy life, Tim
Beverage on the Weekend Collector US Talk said, be.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, we're hammering the swing now that we've mentioned Robbie
Robbie Williams in a swing album. But right now it
is a smart money Harbor with our friends from Concilium,
actually one friend in particular, new guest on the show,
Ben Brinkerhoff. Ben, we're talking about share z's. So you
were talking about the questions that someone might ask. We're
drilling down into people's values to understand what you're to
(19:37):
help you create your investment goals. So, if you are
someone who's just a diy kiwi who wants to use
one of those share buying platforms, do you need before
you what do you need to ask yourself? What do
you just need to sit ten bucks in? Then start
having a play around it. I mean, what would your
advice be to how people would start making their own
investment choices with platform platforms like shareess, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
So I don't mean to be controversial, but I'd be
telling people. I'd be telling people why why are you
using chairs these? Here's the thing, uh use share these.
You're encouraged to do one thing in particular, which is
buy and sell individual companies. But why do you have
(20:23):
more information about the price of a company, more insight
about that than let me use it? Can I use
an analogy?
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Let's say why I use a crappy analogy about the
c I think you should.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
This is a better analogy, but a happy one about
the crusaders. So you know, we've all we've all bought
and sold things on trade me. I want you to
imagine that on trade me, I listed a lawnmower and
I had to tell you the number of kilometers of
lawn at mode. I had to tell you how many
times I've I've serviced the engine. I had to tell
(20:56):
you the year in the make of the engine. I
had to tell you all this information publicly discloses. You know,
how many people need to bid on my lawnmower? Tell
my lawnmowers probably fairly, two three, four five. Imagine if
you had six or seven people all bidding on that lawnmower,
with all the disclosure I gave, it's going to reach
fair price pretty quickly. Well, New Zealand has like fifty lawnmowers,
(21:18):
and we have hundreds of thousands of people all bidding
on them. All of those companies, the insects fifty, all
of those companies have to disclose all the relevant information
to everyone at the same time, and everyone gets to
analyzed and now they're gonna be different opinions on that.
But the idea that the price is blatantly wrong, is nonsense.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
That is actually a pretty good analogy. So therefore, how
on earth do you go about choosing a stock then,
or choosing.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Simply don't don't go. If you're sitting there choosing stocks,
then don't do that.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
So if you're sitting there thinking Chazy's is fun and
you had a few good luck things, then you're saying, well,
you might want to reconsider your all investment strategy, full
stopping absolutely, Okay.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
I mean I had a friend of mine who is
with uh saving money for a home, and he had
money with Chaer's Ease. Yeah, and I said, I said,
I won't use his name. I said friend. I said, friend,
you know that you have no idea what you're doing.
And I paused and he looked at me. He said,
you're right, I have no idea what I'm doing. I said,
(22:25):
but listen, your home is important to you. So we
ended up putting money in. He ended up putting money
in something that is a far safer less. That means
the prices go up and down far less, which he
could build wealth with slowly towards it. And now now
he actually owns a home. Right, So what if he had.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Sounds so unexciting in a way, but it sounds exciting
in the end.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
I gues, you want excitement, have go take fifty dollars
and head the casino. Yeah, right, right, there's there's plenty
of excitement there.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
If you want to build wealth, then don't speculate.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Yeah, so okay, if you want to get involved in
the share market. Because we've had different investment advisors on
the show and chatted with Martin Hores and he said,
he said, of course your neck of the woods. But realistically,
how easy is it for people to get good financial
(23:20):
advice If you don't have some investment advisors they go
with you because you've got fair chunk of equity or
invest I mean, how does the average key where he's
trying to get ahead, get that home deposit whatever, How
do they make good decisions or get good advice about
share investment?
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Okay, so that's it. Actually it's not even that complicated.
You know, most of the most of the funds you
might use for key server have investment options outside of
KI Saver, so you could use those, and sometimes those
are very inexpensive if you have very little I mean
ten twenty thirty thousand dollars, you know, you might, you
(24:02):
might avail yourself with some of those options, and the
keys are you're going to be diversified, and so you're
not your fortunes. And I can be writing on one
or two or three calls which in which luck will
play a far bigger role than anything else, and how
things turn out for you.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
What I mean, if you have so if you have
an interest in certain stocks, So just trying to narrow
this down. There's something I was thinking about the other day,
so for instance, and it was because of Invidia. Okay, sure,
So if you were someone who thought, you know what,
you know enough that you think these industries are really
struggling right now, you might look at a particular class
(24:42):
of investment you think, I don't like the look at that.
I don't think I want to go into that. I
really think that the future of there's going to be
some really good growths in the tech industry in particular.
So you're not going to try and pick the next
in Vidia. But you might say, I believe that AI
is an area where companies who specialize in that A
good portfolio can you buy classes of investments as my
(25:05):
christ and you tell me.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Now here's the thing, what do what do you know
tim that the market doesn't know? The market is a
huge machine that processes the opinions of buyers and sellers,
and not just any opinions, people that are willing to
put their money on the line for those opinions. Does
the market not know about AI? Does the market not
know about technology?
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:28):
So, so as the market understands those things, that information
gets priced in. Now not saying that the price is
always right, but given the information we have today, it's
the it's it's the best approximation of right we can have.
And when new information comes, if that information is positive,
prices will go up. If it's negative, prices will go down.
The point is I don't have that information today. Here's
(25:50):
a willing buyer and seller who will co werced, are
willing to agree in a price. It's probably a reasonable
price given they both have access to the same information.
So what does someone learn when they go to a
they go to a platform like like Chaer's these Let's
say they do it really well and they picked some
things that did really well.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
What do they learn well, they learned that they they
made some good picks.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I actually think they weren't. I think I think they
because over over confidence is a thing. I think they
think that they've got the answers. They have the answers, okay,
Well what do they learn if things go badly? They
may think, oh, this investing thing is this is for fools.
It's just the biggest scene. I don't any part of it.
So it goes well, they might learn the wrong thing
and it goes badly. They might learn the wrong thing.
(26:36):
When how do they learn in order to grow wealth
over time?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but when I was
a when I was a teenager, I probably had a
few hundred bucks, okay in a share company. I had
a few probably fletchers, I think, and a company called
Brierley's Sure. And during the course of my you know,
I said, sixteen seventeen years old, I take up different
(27:01):
cash offers and I'd earn thirty bucks in a weekend
doing something. I put money into it. I don't know why,
but it just became the thing that and actually those
shares ended up when I was a student being worth
about thirty thousand dollars from about five grand. And the
worst advice I ever listened to was from my mum,
who said, oh, don't worry about something and then you'll
be fine, And I was thinking, I don't know, Mum,
they feel like they're quite maxed out. I really should
(27:23):
sell them. And if I had done that, I probably
would have bought my first house the age of twenty two.
And instead they went. Look. I still ended up. I'd
made money on them. But you know what it did
because I didn't really know what it was doing. All
I was doing was judging how well I had done it,
and I just felt I was getting the speed wobbles
and I should have got off the bike and trusted
my instincts. But you know what it did. It put
(27:44):
me off the share market forever.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
That is my point.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
That's why I told you, because I thought it would.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
We absolutely need a country of people that feel comfortable investing,
and they art to be investing by investing, not speculating.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Okay, let's take some calls, and when we take the break,
I'm going to ask you just for some private put
on something. I need to get over that trauma still.
But anyway, Hey, let's go to Andrew High.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
Yeah, Hi, We've got one question for your guest, is
how how what do you think about the gray market?
Speaker 4 (28:26):
The what market?
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I think you said the greenmark?
Speaker 4 (28:28):
The gray market?
Speaker 6 (28:29):
What?
Speaker 4 (28:29):
What is? What is? Why do him know what that is?
What's the gray market? Andrew? Can you tell us?
Speaker 7 (28:37):
Well, if you're an investor, you should know, and you
know your associate should know what the gray market is.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Okay, Well I don't know what it is. Do you
know what he's talking about with the gray market? No,
you'd need to you'd need to elaborate, Andrew, just for just.
Speaker 7 (28:51):
For he doesn't understand what the greenmarkes.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Well, no, no, you should tell us what it is
rather than just come out with some concept and having
a cracket. Okay, see you later. Let's go to some texts.
I mean, you know, we're not doing a gotcha sort
of thing. And if I think if Ben hasn't convinced
you from what he's saying that he knows what he's
talking about to a point, you know, I don't know
what the point of that share was. Andrew, text me
if you want to follow up on that with some
further information. Right, here's some great texts. Hey, Ben, do
(29:17):
you think there will be a place for financial advice
and services in the future? Given AI offers a pretty
good substitute.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Oh what is AI substituting? Because I had the thing is,
what AI will do is help us analyze data. And
there's a lot of data in shares and I think
a lot of fun companies like Harbor and others they're
going to be using AI. But what AI will have
struggled to do is to understand at a deep level
(29:46):
the client and what they want and how their life
circumstances change, and how to prioritize their decisions. You know,
any goal has seven aspects to it, only one of
which is what you invest in. You know, there could
be what I say, what I spend, what my longevity is,
how much I start with, how much I finish with.
So prioritizing amongst those things is going to be an
(30:09):
important aspect and that's very difficult. That's a very difficult
problem for AI to solve.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, I actually I think people we've got a long
way to go before people are feeling confident with AI
a full stop and a whole lot of things. Anyway,
But I mean, is it a tool I mentioned as
data analysis? That's what It's just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
AI will be able to take data and find answers,
and I think intelligent people will use that in or
to listen. If I was in front of you, Tim
and your financial resources in front of someone that had
the exact same age financial resources as you did, that
person's the best financial plan that other person would make
would be different than yours because they care about different things.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Okay, right, let's take a break. We'll come back in
just a moment. It's twenty two six News Talks. He'd be.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Choose to do?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
How don't you?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. We're still on
Robbie Williams, but we have moved away from the swing there.
But my guests Ben Brenkoff from Concilium Partners, Actually I'll
jump in and just reference something we talked about off
air there, Ben, when you were talking about that people
make the mistake of thinking that what they need to
do is make the right selections, and your comment was
(31:29):
that the goal is really you need to The goal
should be getting the best wisdom and sourcing the best wisdom.
And there'll be people listening going, okay, so how do
we source the best wisdom?
Speaker 5 (31:41):
What does that mean? Everyone focuses on the vehicle they
never focus. They don't really focus on the destination.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yea.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Right, So it's like, here's the thing, right, if I
was if I was flying a plane and you and
I asked you where you want to go? I should
kind of know what kind of plane I have, and
I should know what destinations they can get to, and
then I should talk to you about where you want
to go. So good financial advice is sitting there and
(32:08):
helping someone understand what matters to them, yeah, and then
looking at their resources, yeah, and the devising a strategy
in which they can use their resources as intelligently as
possible to achieve what matters to them. And if they
can't achieve what matters to them, then helping them understand, well,
what do I give up that matters to me the
least or or, as often the case, you know, to
(32:30):
do the biggest mistake. People that have too much money
make tim You know, what are investments? Investments? You should
almost think of them like an analogy, like their batteries
and you go to the store. You buy batteries because
you want to go home, you want to plug them
into something. Except investments that just stay investments and never
get used. It's kind of like having a whole heart
full of batteries and taking them home and never plugging
(32:51):
them in. And guess what, a person who dies with
the most money isn't the happiest.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Well that is so this is West. That does remind
me of a certain value. I might talk to you
about in just a second, but we'll take some calls
because you have reminded me of the Yeah, I think
there's a really interesting question somewhere in the middle of that,
which I'll get to. But let's go to a call. Zain.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
Hello, Yeah, hi him. Look, I'm really enjoying listening to
the both of you, and I was just really after
some advice really or some guidance. I like the idea of,
you know, building wealth. I've got three kids, young kids,
teenage kids, dad married, and I'm at the stage of
(33:30):
my life where I am thinking about building wealth, but
I'm not sure how to do that. And yeah, just
looking for some tips and guidance on that one.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Okay, where you go.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Being hizin, I feel like I'm talking to myself a
little bit because I have four teenage kids and I
understand exactly that kind of point of why where you're
in and the first thing that everyone needs to get
right is kiwisaver, and I talked to so few people
that are getting it right. But if you're employed and
you're maximizing your kiwisaver, then what you might be thinking
(34:06):
about doing is ensuring that you're taking appropriate risk in
your kiwisaver. And what I mean by that is if
you have young kids, I imagine you might be in
your thirties or forties, in which case you have multiple
decades before you might be able to use that money,
in which case you want when you want to be
allocating aggressively or into growth funds. And then if you're
trying to build long term wealth outside of that, then
(34:29):
whoever you're working with in kiwisaver often have ways you
can deploy that money outside of kivsaver and you can
access it if you need it. Of course, you know
that is a that is a broad description, but you'll
be investing in something that's diversified and that will grow
over time and in multiple decades when you're in your
sixties wanting to use some of that money. You're never
(34:50):
going to regret the fact that when you're in your
thirties and forties, you're putting some money aside and giving
yourself more choices.
Speaker 6 (34:59):
Yeah, that's yeah, I really appreciate that advice. I am
in my mid forties and you s about values and
it is my kids, and it's just really thinking about
like you're saying, you know, it's not really keen on
the speculation aspect, but bring wealth and I'll take on
board of that advice.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Thanks sign and being more aggressive.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Hey, actually the thing is you can have what what
about sitting your understanding, We'll get it. Being realistic about
your goals because I think the attraction of people thinking
they can pick the right stock is they're going to
get that stock that's going to go through the roof
because as opposed to what's realistic. Because if you're in
your in your late fifties and you want to save
more for your retirement, you might be thinking, oh, hell,
(35:42):
I've got to make a lot of money quickly, but
that's not necessarily realistic. How do you sort of navigate
those territories?
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Yeah, it's when people when people want to speculate on
on investments, often it's because that's the answer to their problem.
And they'll tell me about this share, that share, They'll
tell me about this fund or that fund that's done
well recently, and though almost be looking for confirmation that
that's a good idea, and you know, I try to
put that aside as quickly as possible and say, well,
(36:10):
why why do you need? Why is that the answer?
What's the problem we're trying to solve? What? What is underlying? What?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
What?
Speaker 5 (36:18):
What is the issue that you need a comfort about
such that you think that that is the best possible answer. Yeah,
And so once I once you actually can put the
problem on the table, then you can think about, well,
what is the best way, what's the realistic way, what's
the best way to bring an answer to this so so?
(36:38):
And that answer hardly ever, if ever, involves speculation.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
And it might not be the answer that you're necessarily
seeking as well, but it'd be the answer that you
can live with. I guess if because not everyone, I mean,
there's not always going to be a fairy tale ending
for people. But if they're not asking that question, I
mean some of they might want to say, oh, look
I haven't save for my ortoma. I want to save
half a million.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It'd be surprised him how often we live it. We
do live in a prosperous country. I know not everyone
is in a prospers first position right now. Yeah, but
in this country, given the resources we have, if you
have enough time, you absolutely can get to the point
where you have a satisfying answer and and and far
more often than you think. So there it is. It
(37:22):
is possible. But it's not possible if you despair and
you think, no, it's never going to be for me,
and you put it off, put it off, put it off,
because then your set of answers become narrow and narrower
and narrower. All good answers take time.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Actually, it's interesting you're talking about people who save that,
you know, and they keep on hoarding that sort of
nest egg and when they never spend it. And I
think that there are a lot of people who battle
with the idea of I don't want to I'll sum
it up this way, Okay, I don't want to save
to save up to look back on a life that
(37:56):
I haven't lived because I've been so keen on saving money.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
That you'd be shocked about how often that's the case. People.
People will leave a huge amount of wealth to the
next generation. And the sad thing is is that's not
their intention, that's just the outcome. You know. The chesshire
Cats say, if you don't know where you're going, any
road will take you there, and you're going to get
to an outcome, right, You're going to get somewhere. The
question is is that where you wanted to go? And
(38:21):
and was fear or greed the basic motivator behind the
decision or was it values the basic motivator behind the decision,
and that your financial decisions made sense relative to what
you really cared about, not only you, but you and
your spouse.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Okay, gosh, there's a hell of a lot of food
for thought, there isn't there. I think we'll probably have
to get you back sometime, but we'll be back just
after the break. We being brink off from Concilium Partners.
If you want to check out their website and their work.
What's the what's the website address?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Again?
Speaker 5 (38:53):
They have been www dot Concilium c O N s
I l I U M dot co dot MZ.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Excellent. We'll be back in just a moment. It's eight
and a half minutes to six news talks here to be.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Way so hardboard, Jay does history. There's a party downtown there,
everybody had a partet.
Speaker 7 (39:20):
Everybody had.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
News talks. It'd be with Tim Beveridge. My guess is
bringing Brinkerhoff from Concilium just quickly. By the way, the
guy who caught up about gray matter. The gray market,
not gray matter. The other expression for it is the
dark market, which we're not going to touch on today.
But Ben does know about that as well. It's just
a matter of terminology and there we go. So don't
get too excited about that. Hey, Ben, what do you
(39:46):
want people to take away from this? Because I mean,
obviously you you are in the business at Concilium of
Financial Investment, But I mean you guys offer advice and
solutions on key we save yourselves, don't you.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
What we do is we offer a key server where
advisors can give you a portfolio that is specifically designed
for you and so they don't have to you know,
they could they could use Harbor for bonds, and they
could use you know, Milford for Australasian equities. They can
design a portfolio specifically to you and give you advice.
And I think that a lot of the tension that
(40:19):
we're we're talking about is people want advice. They don't
know where to get it. They want independent advice, someone
that represents them to the world of financial services, not
the world of financial services to them, and I understand that.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Yeah, And so if people want to go and check
out the information you've got on kiwisaver, then they can
go to Concilium dot co dot nz.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
And the keysaver scheme is kiwi rap, so you can
also go to kwirap dot code dot nz.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
Excellent, Okay, fantastic, Hey mate, thanks so much for coming in.
I hope and again sometime we had actually a lot
of techs who have just said, here we go. Hey,
great guest, great show, and lots of questions to follow that,
but we'll have to solve those next time.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
A been sounds good.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
And thanks for everyone listening. Go check out the podcast,
go to the week look for the Weekend collect on
iHeartRadio thanks to my producer Joe Cochlan, and we'll look
forward to your company again. Actually I'm back on tomorrow
at midday, so we'll catch you again. Enjoy the rest
of your evening, Catch you soon, wish Jack.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks d BE Weekends from three PM, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from news Talk
sedb OH Sunday morning.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Don't you know?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Lots of body just losing light. It's a lusty well
the born Could that be Alloy Mac the name from
a Jack Ball.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I had a very good afternoon t If you have
just joined us or welcome back? Should I say? I'm
Tim Beverages. Is the Weekend Collective and this is smart money.
By the way, if you missed the hour we had
with Leslie from Trenton Hearing Leslie Smith, who's the head
of audiology, you can go to any of the other
hours of course, including politics. You can go and check
out the podcast. Just look for the Weekend Collective, go
(00:55):
to iHeartRadio and away you go. I do love a
little bit of Robbie Williams. I'm not sure it was
ever a huge fan of his until he did the
Swing perfour months where he was live at the Albert Hall.
And actually the guy sort of gets it so and
I was wondering what is he doing these days? And he's, look,
he's probably just my producer saying he should do more swing.
And I said, I think Robbie's just spending his money
(01:16):
which ends up being quite a nice seguey because he
could tune into this hour and get some good advice.
We have a new guest in the studio today and
his name is Ben Brinkerhove. He's from Concilium is known
as Concilium Partners. Did I say Consilium Partner Services? And anyway, Ben,
good a, how are you going?
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Thank you, Tim, I'm feeling pretty good. Nice to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for coming on. Hey, look, firstly, just
tell us a little bit because it's good for the
listeners to get a handle on who you are and
where you're coming from. Well, I can hear a twang
of an accent there, just just subtly. But you've been
in New Zealand for a little bit of a little
bit of time. When did you get here?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
I arrived to New Zealand, would you believe it? Into
christ Church in January twenty eleven. Now that wasn't good timing, Not.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Twenty eleven from the birth of my daughter, which was
a month later and was just a few days after
the earthquake. So he arrived in christ Church a month
before I.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Arrived into christ Church. My fourth daughter, Petra was born.
Oh my goodness in early February. Oh wow, started a
new job and suddenly city was broken. Yeah, gosh, that's
the hell of a start. What made you come to
New Zealand in the first place? Well, why does a
(02:34):
man do anything? Really?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Philosophy?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Would you believe that there was a beautiful woman involved? Okay, yes, yes, yes,
would you believe that?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:44):
So my wife moved over to America for about five
or six years, but always wanted to move back to
New Zealand. I had thought to myself that maybe once
we moved over there we put down roots and that,
and that we'd be able to stay. But you can't.
You can't really take the key wei out of a girl.
Speaker 6 (03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
She was real eager to come back and raise our
children here.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
And well, obviously you were great because you're still here.
Why does a man do anything? I was actually thinking
this is but of course for the love of his life.
Of course, there we go and Concilient Partner Services. What's
tell us about what you guys do? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:23):
So Concilium was started around twenty eleven when I got
there with a couple partners, and the object was how
could we create the conditions where it was easier to
give great independent advice. You know, independent advice. It's the
advice you get. We don't have any inducements. It's the Yeah,
(03:45):
it's the advice you get. You get when the only
one who pays you is your client. That's the best
kind of advice. And it's difficult to give independent advice
because you have to have to all your research, you
have to do all your compliance, you have to do
all your own marketing, you have to run your own business.
So we try to make the conditions for independent advisors
to thrive.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Is it actually just is it hard to convince people?
Were a suspicious a lot in New Zealand? And is
it hard to convince people? Or what's the journey you
go on when you when it comes to explaining what
independence looks like and what it means and how can
people can rely on it, etc.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, it's a journey. I mean when I came to
New Zealand, I had to get my head around the
idea that in this country there was a huge web
of term deposits and there is a big love of property,
and there was less comfort around advice and around wealth management.
And even if people were familiar with wealth management, they
(04:46):
weren't necessarily using an advisor, or they kind of thought
their advisor's job was to pick the right things rather
than to give them a strategy to achieve what they want.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
It's because how much of the decision when you're giving
independent advice. Of course it's advised, you're not how much
of it the decision making is left up to the
pliant And of course it is the decision, But a
lot of people sort of want to be told what
to do. They're like, well, what are you telling me
to do? And you're like, well, we're giving you this information,
we're advising of these options. I mean, how far down
(05:19):
the driving the car for them? Do you do? Yes?
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So, when you're sitting down with someone to help deliver
a strategy, the first thing you need to figure out
with them is what they want and do you want.
People are terrified of tim finding out that there's no hope.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, they're terrified of that.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
People hate the word goals, Like if I ask you
what's your financial goal? Like you you know a little shudder.
I hate that word goal because I think it's psychologically
it's almost like I don't want to put the answer
out into the universe because what if I actually don't
don't achieve it, and I'm terrified of I'm not achieving it,
(06:00):
So I'd rather just not have one.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
I reckon that would be incredibly common. I probably have
suffered from that, or suffered from that myself, I think,
and I think a lot of people listening would relate
to that.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
It's I liken it too. When I was at university
and I'd come out of an exam and someone would say, oh,
how'd you do? And even if I thought I did well,
I'd say, oh, I think I did okay. Yeah, why
am I saying that I actually think I did better
than okay?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Well, you're being humble these a little both.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I'm American, I'm allowed. I hate it the uh because
I don't want. The last thing I want is to
have actually done done uh, done badly and then have
told someone I did well. So I think when you're
creating a financial goal, there's this fear, there's this fear
of setting h an objective and falling short of that,
(06:51):
and so I think people just kind of cruise through
a little bit without setting them and of course they
end up where they end up, but maybe less than
what they could have had if they thought about it carefully.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, because how how well? Yeah, how difficult is it
to set a financial goal? Because I can imagine that
it would be a goal where it could constantly shift anyway,
because maybe is the first thing. Just have some sort
of goal. Let's have something we can work with, and
then we'll start from there. No, you don't start with goals,
(07:24):
Oh you don't, do you know what you start with?
Tim You start with values. So values are tend to
be enduring. Goals change your your life's circumstances change. Your
parents may have left you an inheritance, maybe you lost
your job. They're gonna be good and bad things that
happened to you along the way. But your values and
your values are there to set your priorities, and your
(07:46):
priorities should reflect your finances.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
What I do with my money should reflect what I
actually truly value in this life, and so often they don't.
And if I don't know what your values are, how
am I going to give you wise counsel so that
you're actually making financial decisions where your life makes sense.
Speaker 7 (08:05):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
That's an interesting one because when you mentioned that, I
think if I was to talk to you, say, what
are your values, and BlimE me. I guess the first
thing that came into my mind when you mentioned that
was I've got kids and I want to give them
and hopefully I leave them something which gives them reason
not to be so worried about their own financial features.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
HM.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
That's an incredibly important value. And imagine that you're talking
to someone about that, and I'm asking you about your values,
and I might ask questions like, well, what's important about
money to you?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
And you're giving me a choice.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
You might okay, choice, and then I say to myself
or say to you about what's important about choice? And
you might say something about freedom. Freedom, Great, Well what's
important about freedom? See, we're going deeper everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
And I'd say, do I have to explain that you do?
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Because you know, when you're in front of someone.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Oh that's really interesting, I say. You just keep it's
almost like the Socratic method and digging down to what
you find. You just keep asking questions.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Not my job to tell you what's important to you.
It's not even my job to prioritize your financial decisions.
It's my job to understand you as a person and
who has values. Because if you have a strategy that
reflects your view of the world, and that could be
about your children. So let's say we get at the
end of this process and you've total what you talked
(09:28):
a lot about being a provider for your children. Then
essentially your strategy financially needs to lead to outcomes which
reflect that truth.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Okay, I can imagine someone listening going, how on what
do you mean values? Because I want to have I
want to have a good investment strategy, because I want
to travel when I'm older, I want to be able
free to do what I want. And they don't see
it as a value proposition. But what values does that
normally boil down to?
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Freedom is a value absolutely? And what does financial freedom mean?
Is that financial freedom from I don't have to work anymore,
that's freedom from or is it freedom too?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Because for some people they just don't want to worry.
I mean, I think how much I wonder how many
people don't worry about money, because I have a suspicion
that you have to have quite a lot of money.
Should I say more than quite a lot a lot
of money before it ceases to be something that keeps
you awake at night? Because people say I want I'd
(10:30):
like to have another you know, I'd like to earn
another fifty thousand a year or something, And yet as
soon as they do that, their expectations and their values there, well,
they spend that money pretty quickly. Is so, Actually, I
don't know where I was going with that.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
I guess you're saying, how much money do I have
to have until I no longer worry about money? And
then you answer a question by saying, no, the more
the more money I have, the more and more stuff
I have, the more stuff I have to be I
have to be mindful of and care for.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
I don't think you ever get to the bottom of that.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
In my view, if you have a lot of wealth,
it means you have a lot of assets, and good
stewardship of those assets is probably how you got there
in the first place. So you never let yourself not
care about how you steward your money.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Okay, So what's the first thing you so you the
first thing you want to do when you made a
client is you just want to get to know them
really absolutely.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
You want to ask a lot of questions if for
your listeners, just I mean, I work with about one
hundred and fifty advisory firms across the country. Financial advisors
are my clients, as it were, and the clients of Concilium,
and in some ways I'm like a business coach for them.
I try to help them be the best is what
they could be. I was a financial advisor back in
(11:42):
the States. And here's a hint. If you're sitting down
with a financial advisor and the financial advisor does most
of the talking, then you're in front of the wrong
financial advisor. Okay, the best financial advisors will ask lots
and lots of questions and do lots of listening because
you cannot devise a strategy until you know what matters
(12:05):
to someone.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Right, Okay, gosh, there's a lot to get my head
around with that. Actually, by the way, have you noticed
a change in the way New Zealanders are are viewing
financial investment, because obviously we see the headlines around property
are not as flash as they were. There used to
(12:27):
be the time in New Zealand where we could do
money and we'd get text saying, oh, just what do
you mean to do? Just leverage and get into property.
It's a no brainer. It feels a lot more complex
now and now we've seen conversations shifting to I think
Key was a bit more interested in shares and equity
investments and other ways of investing. Of course, everyone wants
to buy in Vidia twenty years ago.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Yeah, I mean when it was a gaming chip maker
that no one really knew about it, rightly.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Yeah, so, and of course we've got platforms like Shares's
and stuff like that. What's your take on shares's and
the DIY sat of things. When you someone who is involved,
you know, deeply in analyzing good investments and providing tell
you a story.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Back before I had any financial advising credentials, I was
an economist, you know, for my sins. And I remember
I went on to allocate my money, my my retirement
money as an economist, and I logged on the platform
and I went to choose between different investments. And you
(13:36):
know what methodology I now as an economist, I had
taken a lot of finance courses at university, Yeah I had.
I had even taken a course on investing at university.
And so I come out and I'm looking at a
lot of various different options. And what I did is
I sorted. I sorted the ones that did well over
(13:59):
what I thought was a long time arison five or
ten years, and I put them to the top of
the list, and the ones that did badly. And you
know what the investments that had done the very best
in the I don't know previous five or ten years
were they were financial financial companies. So and this was
about like two thousand and six, two thousand and seven,
and over the previous ten years, financial companies and banks
(14:22):
and things like this had done fantastically well. Well, do
you know what happened to financial companies in the in
in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I think the I don't want to put it colloquially,
but they didn't do so well.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
They did awfully. And I thought to myself, here I am,
you know, having had some formal education being an economist,
and I fell into the trap of it's done well,
it will do well. I'm going to be smarter than
everybody because I'm going to invest in the things that
did well recently.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
It's a bit like becoming a fan of Manchester United
at the end of their really good run, because I'm
not sure if they're as good as they use anyway.
I'm just that's not.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Analogy for the Crusaders.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sorry I should have used that one. It's like, it's
like putting all the money on the Crusaders this season
because of seven previous wins without understanding actually there is
an analogy for investment here though, isn't there? Isn't there well,
because if you were to look at the Crusaders, they've
had seven six I'm sorry Canterbury people, my apologies. I
(15:23):
do kind of feel your paying because I love christ
Church and I've got so many good friends and family
down there. But anyway, nevertheles, I'm going to stick the
knife in now. But is it fair to have in
an analogy that you look at the previous seven years
of the Crusaders and go, wow, those guys are winning team.
I'm going to stick a lot of my money on
the Crusaders this year without looking at the underpinning important
(15:47):
facets of what made that such a successful team. And
arguably there is one person who is now the All
Blacks coach who's no longer there. And if you didn't
know that, we're the difference between knowing and not knowing that.
In other words, you look at successful company and there's
something that's changed on I My analogy is going to
fall over because you're going to point to other things
(16:08):
that are the reasons that it was a bad idea.
But anyway, you guys, I was going to say, look,
if you'd knowne that Scott Robertson was leaving, then you
might just be you might just hold back some of
that money.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
So here's the thing about investing. What people look at
mostly more than anything else, is recent good performance of
the investment, either the share or the managed fund or
whatever it is. And they will conclude to themselves that
what has done well will do well. And I hate
to burst anyone's bubble, but that is a awful way
(16:39):
of selecting anything. There's many, many studies that show that
recent good performance is not predictive a future performance.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Well, it's also sounds like a disclaimer you often here
as well.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Well, there's disclaimers there for a reason. And the reason
that disclaimer rest to be there. So many people believe it. Okay,
it's and it's listen, and you think to yourself, if
not for recent good performance, then what is the basis
of selecting an investment.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, so it is.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
It is a little bit confusing. But if you're going
down the line of the do yourself or approach. Yeah,
this is the approach that I think is most intuitively appealing. Unfortunately,
there's not good information in it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Okay, So if you are interested, we're going to take
we're going to take a break into right now. But
if you are someone who's interested in the DIY and
especially things like Chase's, and actually we should mention there
are other companies that do the Shaza's thing, because we're
going not just make this an in commercial by accident
for Chairs's. But if you are wanting to make some
of your own decisions on investing and you want to
get in the share market, how are you making your
(17:42):
decisions or investing or are you waiting with baked breath
to see what Ben Brinkerhof from Concilium says after the break.
But you can give us a call and pick us
brains right now on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
You can text on nine to nine to two and
we can do that right now. Jump on at twenty
four past five News talks edb how is how is Dargan.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There would travel?
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Oh? Worried about funding a comfortable retirement? Well, you're not alone.
The cost of living crisis is hitting home for a
lot of people, so it's no surprise people are looking
for ways to make the most of their savings and
get a little bit more income to supplement their New
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income fund like the Harbor Income Fund. It works by
(18:25):
holding a mix of interest paying securities and shares that
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out in monthly installments. To find out more about Harbor's
Income Fund, just head to their website or speak with
(18:46):
your financial advisor. This is not intended as personalized advice.
The product Disclosure Statement for Harbor Investment Funds issued by
Harbor Asset Management is available at Harbor Asset dot co
dot nz.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Helping you get on top of your busy life, Tim
Beverage on the Weekend Collector US Talk said, be.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, we're hammering the swing now that we've mentioned Robbie
Robbie Williams in a swing album. But right now it
is a smart money Harbor with our friends from Concilium,
actually one friend in particular, new guest on the show,
Ben Brinkerhoff. Ben, we're talking about share z's. So you
were talking about the questions that someone might ask. We're
drilling down into people's values to understand what you're to
(19:37):
help you create your investment goals. So, if you are
someone who's just a diy kiwi who wants to use
one of those share buying platforms, do you need before
you what do you need to ask yourself? What do
you just need to sit ten bucks in? Then start
having a play around it. I mean, what would your
advice be to how people would start making their own
investment choices with platform platforms like shareess, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
So I don't mean to be controversial, but I'd be
telling people. I'd be telling people why why are you
using chairs these? Here's the thing, uh use share these.
You're encouraged to do one thing in particular, which is
buy and sell individual companies. But why do you have
(20:23):
more information about the price of a company, more insight
about that than let me use it? Can I use
an analogy?
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Let's say why I use a crappy analogy about the
c I think you should.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
This is a better analogy, but a happy one about
the crusaders. So you know, we've all we've all bought
and sold things on trade me. I want you to
imagine that on trade me, I listed a lawnmower and
I had to tell you the number of kilometers of
lawn at mode. I had to tell you how many
times I've I've serviced the engine. I had to tell
(20:56):
you the year in the make of the engine. I
had to tell you all this information publicly discloses. You know,
how many people need to bid on my lawnmower? Tell
my lawnmowers probably fairly, two three, four five. Imagine if
you had six or seven people all bidding on that lawnmower,
with all the disclosure I gave, it's going to reach
fair price pretty quickly. Well, New Zealand has like fifty lawnmowers,
(21:18):
and we have hundreds of thousands of people all bidding
on them. All of those companies, the insects fifty, all
of those companies have to disclose all the relevant information
to everyone at the same time, and everyone gets to
analyzed and now they're gonna be different opinions on that.
But the idea that the price is blatantly wrong, is nonsense.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
That is actually a pretty good analogy. So therefore, how
on earth do you go about choosing a stock then,
or choosing.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Simply don't don't go. If you're sitting there choosing stocks,
then don't do that.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
So if you're sitting there thinking Chazy's is fun and
you had a few good luck things, then you're saying, well,
you might want to reconsider your all investment strategy, full
stopping absolutely, Okay.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
I mean I had a friend of mine who is
with uh saving money for a home, and he had
money with Chaer's Ease. Yeah, and I said, I said,
I won't use his name. I said friend. I said, friend,
you know that you have no idea what you're doing.
And I paused and he looked at me. He said,
you're right, I have no idea what I'm doing. I said,
(22:25):
but listen, your home is important to you. So we
ended up putting money in. He ended up putting money
in something that is a far safer less. That means
the prices go up and down far less, which he
could build wealth with slowly towards it. And now now
he actually owns a home. Right, So what if he had.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Sounds so unexciting in a way, but it sounds exciting
in the end.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
I gues, you want excitement, have go take fifty dollars
and head the casino. Yeah, right, right, there's there's plenty
of excitement there.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
If you want to build wealth, then don't speculate.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Yeah, so okay, if you want to get involved in
the share market. Because we've had different investment advisors on
the show and chatted with Martin Hores and he said,
he said, of course your neck of the woods. But realistically,
how easy is it for people to get good financial
(23:20):
advice If you don't have some investment advisors they go
with you because you've got fair chunk of equity or
invest I mean, how does the average key where he's
trying to get ahead, get that home deposit whatever, How
do they make good decisions or get good advice about
share investment?
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Okay, so that's it. Actually it's not even that complicated.
You know, most of the most of the funds you
might use for key server have investment options outside of
KI Saver, so you could use those, and sometimes those
are very inexpensive if you have very little I mean
ten twenty thirty thousand dollars, you know, you might, you
(24:02):
might avail yourself with some of those options, and the
keys are you're going to be diversified, and so you're
not your fortunes. And I can be writing on one
or two or three calls which in which luck will
play a far bigger role than anything else, and how
things turn out for you.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
What I mean, if you have so if you have
an interest in certain stocks, So just trying to narrow
this down. There's something I was thinking about the other day,
so for instance, and it was because of Invidia. Okay, sure,
So if you were someone who thought, you know what,
you know enough that you think these industries are really
struggling right now, you might look at a particular class
(24:42):
of investment you think, I don't like the look at that.
I don't think I want to go into that. I
really think that the future of there's going to be
some really good growths in the tech industry in particular.
So you're not going to try and pick the next
in Vidia. But you might say, I believe that AI
is an area where companies who specialize in that A
good portfolio can you buy classes of investments as my
(25:05):
christ and you tell me.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Now here's the thing, what do what do you know
tim that the market doesn't know? The market is a
huge machine that processes the opinions of buyers and sellers,
and not just any opinions, people that are willing to
put their money on the line for those opinions. Does
the market not know about AI? Does the market not
know about technology?
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:28):
So, so as the market understands those things, that information
gets priced in. Now not saying that the price is
always right, but given the information we have today, it's
the it's it's the best approximation of right we can have.
And when new information comes, if that information is positive,
prices will go up. If it's negative, prices will go down.
The point is I don't have that information today. Here's
(25:50):
a willing buyer and seller who will co werced, are
willing to agree in a price. It's probably a reasonable
price given they both have access to the same information.
So what does someone learn when they go to a
they go to a platform like like Chaer's these Let's
say they do it really well and they picked some
things that did really well.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
What do they learn well, they learned that they they
made some good picks.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I actually think they weren't. I think I think they
because over over confidence is a thing. I think they
think that they've got the answers. They have the answers, okay,
Well what do they learn if things go badly? They
may think, oh, this investing thing is this is for fools.
It's just the biggest scene. I don't any part of it.
So it goes well, they might learn the wrong thing
and it goes badly. They might learn the wrong thing.
(26:36):
When how do they learn in order to grow wealth
over time?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but when I was
a when I was a teenager, I probably had a
few hundred bucks, okay in a share company. I had
a few probably fletchers, I think, and a company called
Brierley's Sure. And during the course of my you know,
I said, sixteen seventeen years old, I take up different
(27:01):
cash offers and I'd earn thirty bucks in a weekend
doing something. I put money into it. I don't know why,
but it just became the thing that and actually those
shares ended up when I was a student being worth
about thirty thousand dollars from about five grand. And the
worst advice I ever listened to was from my mum,
who said, oh, don't worry about something and then you'll
be fine, And I was thinking, I don't know, Mum,
they feel like they're quite maxed out. I really should
(27:23):
sell them. And if I had done that, I probably
would have bought my first house the age of twenty two.
And instead they went. Look. I still ended up. I'd
made money on them. But you know what it did
because I didn't really know what it was doing. All
I was doing was judging how well I had done it,
and I just felt I was getting the speed wobbles
and I should have got off the bike and trusted
my instincts. But you know what it did. It put
(27:44):
me off the share market forever.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
That is my point.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
That's why I told you, because I thought it would.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
We absolutely need a country of people that feel comfortable investing,
and they art to be investing by investing, not speculating.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Okay, let's take some calls, and when we take the break,
I'm going to ask you just for some private put
on something. I need to get over that trauma still.
But anyway, Hey, let's go to Andrew High.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
Yeah, Hi, We've got one question for your guest, is
how how what do you think about the gray market?
Speaker 4 (28:26):
The what market?
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I think you said the greenmark?
Speaker 4 (28:28):
The gray market?
Speaker 6 (28:29):
What?
Speaker 4 (28:29):
What is? What is? Why do him know what that is?
What's the gray market? Andrew? Can you tell us?
Speaker 7 (28:37):
Well, if you're an investor, you should know, and you
know your associate should know what the gray market is.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Okay, Well I don't know what it is. Do you
know what he's talking about with the gray market? No,
you'd need to you'd need to elaborate, Andrew, just for just.
Speaker 7 (28:51):
For he doesn't understand what the greenmarkes.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Well, no, no, you should tell us what it is
rather than just come out with some concept and having
a cracket. Okay, see you later. Let's go to some texts.
I mean, you know, we're not doing a gotcha sort
of thing. And if I think if Ben hasn't convinced
you from what he's saying that he knows what he's
talking about to a point, you know, I don't know
what the point of that share was. Andrew, text me
if you want to follow up on that with some
further information. Right, here's some great texts. Hey, Ben, do
(29:17):
you think there will be a place for financial advice
and services in the future? Given AI offers a pretty
good substitute.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Oh what is AI substituting? Because I had the thing is,
what AI will do is help us analyze data. And
there's a lot of data in shares and I think
a lot of fun companies like Harbor and others they're
going to be using AI. But what AI will have
struggled to do is to understand at a deep level
(29:46):
the client and what they want and how their life
circumstances change, and how to prioritize their decisions. You know,
any goal has seven aspects to it, only one of
which is what you invest in. You know, there could
be what I say, what I spend, what my longevity is,
how much I start with, how much I finish with.
So prioritizing amongst those things is going to be an
(30:09):
important aspect and that's very difficult. That's a very difficult
problem for AI to solve.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, I actually I think people we've got a long
way to go before people are feeling confident with AI
a full stop and a whole lot of things. Anyway,
But I mean, is it a tool I mentioned as
data analysis? That's what It's just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
AI will be able to take data and find answers,
and I think intelligent people will use that in or
to listen. If I was in front of you, Tim
and your financial resources in front of someone that had
the exact same age financial resources as you did, that
person's the best financial plan that other person would make
would be different than yours because they care about different things.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Okay, right, let's take a break. We'll come back in
just a moment. It's twenty two six News Talks. He'd be.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Choose to do?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
How don't you?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. We're still on
Robbie Williams, but we have moved away from the swing there.
But my guests Ben Brenkoff from Concilium Partners, Actually I'll
jump in and just reference something we talked about off
air there, Ben, when you were talking about that people
make the mistake of thinking that what they need to
do is make the right selections, and your comment was
(31:29):
that the goal is really you need to The goal
should be getting the best wisdom and sourcing the best wisdom.
And there'll be people listening going, okay, so how do
we source the best wisdom?
Speaker 5 (31:41):
What does that mean? Everyone focuses on the vehicle they
never focus. They don't really focus on the destination.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yea.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Right, So it's like, here's the thing, right, if I
was if I was flying a plane and you and
I asked you where you want to go? I should
kind of know what kind of plane I have, and
I should know what destinations they can get to, and
then I should talk to you about where you want
to go. So good financial advice is sitting there and
(32:08):
helping someone understand what matters to them, yeah, and then
looking at their resources, yeah, and the devising a strategy
in which they can use their resources as intelligently as
possible to achieve what matters to them. And if they
can't achieve what matters to them, then helping them understand, well,
what do I give up that matters to me the
least or or, as often the case, you know, to
(32:30):
do the biggest mistake. People that have too much money
make tim You know, what are investments? Investments? You should
almost think of them like an analogy, like their batteries
and you go to the store. You buy batteries because
you want to go home, you want to plug them
into something. Except investments that just stay investments and never
get used. It's kind of like having a whole heart
full of batteries and taking them home and never plugging
(32:51):
them in. And guess what, a person who dies with
the most money isn't the happiest.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Well that is so this is West. That does remind
me of a certain value. I might talk to you
about in just a second, but we'll take some calls
because you have reminded me of the Yeah, I think
there's a really interesting question somewhere in the middle of that,
which I'll get to. But let's go to a call. Zain.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
Hello, Yeah, hi him. Look, I'm really enjoying listening to
the both of you, and I was just really after
some advice really or some guidance. I like the idea of,
you know, building wealth. I've got three kids, young kids,
teenage kids, dad married, and I'm at the stage of
(33:30):
my life where I am thinking about building wealth, but
I'm not sure how to do that. And yeah, just
looking for some tips and guidance on that one.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Okay, where you go.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Being hizin, I feel like I'm talking to myself a
little bit because I have four teenage kids and I
understand exactly that kind of point of why where you're
in and the first thing that everyone needs to get
right is kiwisaver, and I talked to so few people
that are getting it right. But if you're employed and
you're maximizing your kiwisaver, then what you might be thinking
(34:06):
about doing is ensuring that you're taking appropriate risk in
your kiwisaver. And what I mean by that is if
you have young kids, I imagine you might be in
your thirties or forties, in which case you have multiple
decades before you might be able to use that money,
in which case you want when you want to be
allocating aggressively or into growth funds. And then if you're
trying to build long term wealth outside of that, then
(34:29):
whoever you're working with in kiwisaver often have ways you
can deploy that money outside of kivsaver and you can
access it if you need it. Of course, you know
that is a that is a broad description, but you'll
be investing in something that's diversified and that will grow
over time and in multiple decades when you're in your
sixties wanting to use some of that money. You're never
(34:50):
going to regret the fact that when you're in your
thirties and forties, you're putting some money aside and giving
yourself more choices.
Speaker 6 (34:59):
Yeah, that's yeah, I really appreciate that advice. I am
in my mid forties and you s about values and
it is my kids, and it's just really thinking about
like you're saying, you know, it's not really keen on
the speculation aspect, but bring wealth and I'll take on
board of that advice.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Thanks sign and being more aggressive.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Hey, actually the thing is you can have what what
about sitting your understanding, We'll get it. Being realistic about
your goals because I think the attraction of people thinking
they can pick the right stock is they're going to
get that stock that's going to go through the roof
because as opposed to what's realistic. Because if you're in
your in your late fifties and you want to save
more for your retirement, you might be thinking, oh, hell,
(35:42):
I've got to make a lot of money quickly, but
that's not necessarily realistic. How do you sort of navigate
those territories?
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Yeah, it's when people when people want to speculate on
on investments, often it's because that's the answer to their problem.
And they'll tell me about this share, that share, They'll
tell me about this fund or that fund that's done
well recently, and though almost be looking for confirmation that
that's a good idea, and you know, I try to
put that aside as quickly as possible and say, well,
(36:10):
why why do you need? Why is that the answer?
What's the problem we're trying to solve? What? What is underlying? What?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
What?
Speaker 5 (36:18):
What is the issue that you need a comfort about
such that you think that that is the best possible answer. Yeah,
And so once I once you actually can put the
problem on the table, then you can think about, well,
what is the best way, what's the realistic way, what's
the best way to bring an answer to this so so?
(36:38):
And that answer hardly ever, if ever, involves speculation.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
And it might not be the answer that you're necessarily
seeking as well, but it'd be the answer that you
can live with. I guess if because not everyone, I mean,
there's not always going to be a fairy tale ending
for people. But if they're not asking that question, I
mean some of they might want to say, oh, look
I haven't save for my ortoma. I want to save
half a million.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It'd be surprised him how often we live it. We
do live in a prosperous country. I know not everyone
is in a prospers first position right now. Yeah, but
in this country, given the resources we have, if you
have enough time, you absolutely can get to the point
where you have a satisfying answer and and and far
more often than you think. So there it is. It
(37:22):
is possible. But it's not possible if you despair and
you think, no, it's never going to be for me,
and you put it off, put it off, put it off,
because then your set of answers become narrow and narrower
and narrower. All good answers take time.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Actually, it's interesting you're talking about people who save that,
you know, and they keep on hoarding that sort of
nest egg and when they never spend it. And I
think that there are a lot of people who battle
with the idea of I don't want to I'll sum
it up this way, Okay, I don't want to save
to save up to look back on a life that
(37:56):
I haven't lived because I've been so keen on saving money.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
That you'd be shocked about how often that's the case. People.
People will leave a huge amount of wealth to the
next generation. And the sad thing is is that's not
their intention, that's just the outcome. You know. The chesshire
Cats say, if you don't know where you're going, any
road will take you there, and you're going to get
to an outcome, right, You're going to get somewhere. The
question is is that where you wanted to go? And
(38:21):
and was fear or greed the basic motivator behind the
decision or was it values the basic motivator behind the decision,
and that your financial decisions made sense relative to what
you really cared about, not only you, but you and
your spouse.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Okay, gosh, there's a hell of a lot of food
for thought, there isn't there. I think we'll probably have
to get you back sometime, but we'll be back just
after the break. We being brink off from Concilium Partners.
If you want to check out their website and their work.
What's the what's the website address?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Again?
Speaker 5 (38:53):
They have been www dot Concilium c O N s
I l I U M dot co dot MZ.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Excellent. We'll be back in just a moment. It's eight
and a half minutes to six news talks here to be.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Way so hardboard, Jay does history. There's a party downtown there,
everybody had a partet.
Speaker 7 (39:20):
Everybody had.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
News talks. It'd be with Tim Beveridge. My guess is
bringing Brinkerhoff from Concilium just quickly. By the way, the
guy who caught up about gray matter. The gray market,
not gray matter. The other expression for it is the
dark market, which we're not going to touch on today.
But Ben does know about that as well. It's just
a matter of terminology and there we go. So don't
get too excited about that. Hey, Ben, what do you
(39:46):
want people to take away from this? Because I mean,
obviously you you are in the business at Concilium of
Financial Investment, But I mean you guys offer advice and
solutions on key we save yourselves, don't you.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
What we do is we offer a key server where
advisors can give you a portfolio that is specifically designed
for you and so they don't have to you know,
they could they could use Harbor for bonds, and they
could use you know, Milford for Australasian equities. They can
design a portfolio specifically to you and give you advice.
And I think that a lot of the tension that
(40:19):
we're we're talking about is people want advice. They don't
know where to get it. They want independent advice, someone
that represents them to the world of financial services, not
the world of financial services to them, and I understand that.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Yeah, And so if people want to go and check
out the information you've got on kiwisaver, then they can
go to Concilium dot co dot nz.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
And the keysaver scheme is kiwi rap, so you can
also go to kwirap dot code dot nz.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
Excellent, Okay, fantastic, Hey mate, thanks so much for coming in.
I hope and again sometime we had actually a lot
of techs who have just said, here we go. Hey,
great guest, great show, and lots of questions to follow that,
but we'll have to solve those next time.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
A been sounds good.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
And thanks for everyone listening. Go check out the podcast,
go to the week look for the Weekend collect on
iHeartRadio thanks to my producer Joe Cochlan, and we'll look
forward to your company again. Actually I'm back on tomorrow
at midday, so we'll catch you again. Enjoy the rest
of your evening, Catch you soon, wish Jack.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks d BE Weekends from three PM, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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