December 21, 2025 • 43 mins
Often trust have been seen to be province of the uber wealthy. But are they? And often people don't think about this issue until it is too late
So when should we think about these issues - our family. inheritances and what's gonna happen to our money when we aren't around to look after it?
Managing Director for New Zealand Family Trust Services Limited Janet Xuccoa joins Tim Beveridge to give her advice on trust accounts, and how they should be used.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
a bay.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Dashing through the snow in a one horse open sleigh.
All the fields we go, laughing all the way, bells
on bop, tail ring making spirits bride, What fun it
is to ride and sing a sling song to.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Night jingle bells, jingle walking back to Weekend Collective. Yeah,
a bit of a retro theme. What's some of the
music we're playing to this this afternoon. I'm Tim Beverage.
By the way, this is the Weekend Collective. But if
you hear any of the retro stuff, some of it is.
All of it is from an album called Christmas Cocktails,
which I bought it. I bought the CD of it
(02:22):
Donkeys years ago, and it's one of those go to things.
It's got a nice sort of feel good sort of
you know, retro up tempo sort of feel to things.
And yeah, then I saved it to Spotify and it
is one of my regular go tos, among other albums
of course. But it's called Christmas Cocktails. If you're curious,
I'm looking for it and I have no vested interest
in it, by the way, just to share with you anyway,
right now, welcome back and if you've missed any of
(02:44):
the ours are interesting always fantastic chat to Allison Gofton
about the pre sort of Christmas and catering and food
and ideas like that as well. And now this is Look,
we often have many calls on the show, but they
sometimes people save it till the end and then they
find they miss out. But we we want your participation.
(03:06):
You can jump on the blow whenever you want if
you've got any questions on this on one hundred and
eighty ten eighty or text nine two nine two for
this our smart money and so look. Of course right
now everyone's running around trying to sort out your last
minute shopping, not spending too much. But there is the
question that what we're going to explore is, you know
what we want to talk about, what do you do
(03:28):
with the money and wealth that you would like to
either keep in your hot little hands or maybe have
it give to your family once you've gone. And so trusts,
that's what we're going to be talking about, which have
often have often are often seen as the province of
the uber wealthy. But are they I mean, should you
be thinking about a trust? When should you think about
(03:50):
a trust inheritances, what's going to happen to our money
when we aren't around look after it? And how much
control can you actually have with your property once you're
out of the picture. So we're going to talk about that.
Should everyone have a family trust? Who shouldn't worry about it?
When do trust? Absolutely make sense? A huge number of
questions around it, But anyway to discuss that and to
(04:14):
take your causes and Dish had a bit of non
specific advice. Of course we don't give specific financial advice.
She is managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services
Limited and her name is Janet Zukoa and Janet is
with me now, Janet High, How are you?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Hello, Tim? And hello to all of our listens.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Christmas to everybody, Yeah, compliments of this.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Do you like Christmas? I love Christmas?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Is it just the time of year because we like
the summer? Do you like the sort of decorations? Is
it the food? Is it the giving it?
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I love the cows, I love all the traditions. I
love decorating the tree and you know, to be really honest,
I love the presence.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah. Actually the music. I do love Christmas music. I've
got a daughter who plays music. In fact, I sort
of said, it's not really Christmas, honey. She s love
Christmas music, so she plays it for several months of
the year. But I do quite like at z B.
Once first of December textover, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That's what makes you feel happy and bubbly.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, And we've all got our favorites.
Of course, I don't get the Kylie minogue one which
is apparently hit number one. She's got a song on
the Xmas and I listened to it and watched it.
I thought, I have no idea why that's popular. Maybe
it's just because people love Kylie. But anyway, don't even
waste your time people looking at it's just dreadful. Anyway,
let's talk about trusts. How have you been tell us
(05:34):
a bit. I mean, you've been on the ship. We've
had you on the show two or three times now.
I think this is but just for those you haven't
haven't heard you before, tell us a little bit about
you and your background and involvement with trusts.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So I run New Zealand Family Trust Services, which is
a very large trust provider in New Zealand. Will not
only act as independent trustee for many trusts, but we
also offer an administration service for trusts as well, so
sometimes we're not an independent trustee, but we do offer
administration services for my sins. I've got a law degree
(06:09):
and an accounting degree. I'm not carrying current practice certificates
in either of those fields because I don't need to,
but it does make it very helpful because when something
crosses your desk, you look at something and you think,
I think maybe we should have a lawyer on this.
And we had something the other day what appeared to
be a really well written shareholders agreement until I've had
(06:30):
a good read of it and asked the client where
he got that from, and that was care of Google
Land and AI, which didn't suit the circumstances at all.
So of course we had to we had to direct
and back to back to a lawyer to actually get
some proper advice. And it's the same in the accounting field.
(06:53):
We had had another client give us some documentation and
when I looked at that, I just thought, I think
we should really talk to their accountant because that could
trigger all sorts of tax complications. So the knowledge that
I have, although I'm not carrying carrying compaxes if it
doesn't need help, because you can then direct them back
to the right professionals so that no mistakes occur.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
What got you interested in trusts?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Ah, it's fascinating. It's intellectually really challenging. Your trusts are
meant are meant to reflect the moral values and standards
of society, and of course that's forever changing. It's an evolution,
and so that brings into the judiciary and with their
court cases and the decisions that they're making, and what
(07:41):
might appear to be incredibly obvious often is not the
law and goes against it goes against how things actually
are in trust land.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
They're an interesting creation. I remember when I studied equity,
which is the subject we've first introduced to trust. I
think it was quite fascinated just with the fact that
you could create a particular legal entity which vested someone.
But I'm not going to try and explain trust, but
just the fact that you would have a legal entity
which would be like it's a legal personal most doesn't
(08:13):
it They explain what a trust is well.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
First off, it's from purely a legal perspective. It is
not a legal entity. It's a relationship. It's a fuduciary relationship.
And people do have feuduciary relationships. We've all got them.
You've got a fuduciary relationship with your doctor. Your doctor
is meant to know better than you, and when you
go to go to them, they are meant to treat
you to the best of their ability. And your interests
(08:38):
are paramount or.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Blood, obligations of good faith, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
And all those sorts of things. And so that's what
trustees are about. Trustees are duties of care and other
duties of course to the beneficiaries, and so they have
a fiduciary relationship to make sure that they are looking
after and serving the beneficiaries in the best way possible.
That's quite loose, by the way, but that's a good
explanation for late people.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I'd be curious to know what percentage of people who
seek advice about getting a trust are doing it too
late that when they get the advice, they go I
should have done this twenty years.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
A lot of people, a lot of people. I set
up my first trust when I was nineteen, and that
was the very first asset I bought within trust. And
I think that that's great advice not everybody should have
a trust, but you really want to try and set
one up before before you need it. So if you're
going into business, everybody goes into business in stunts with
(09:43):
great intentions of being highly successful, so they plan lots
for success, but they never plan for failure. So you
want to You can't set a trust up when the
creditors are knocking down the door and the receiver's about
to walk through. So you want to make sure that
whilst you're planning for success, you're also planning that if
there's a rainy day that comes along, that you are
(10:03):
well and truly prepared for that. So trust a great
asset protection devices, but they've got to be put in
place well in advance.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, because basically what a trust would do is so
if you've got into a business and it goes bug
that if you've managed to get your assets into a
trust in a timely manner, then those assets will be protected.
And I guess especially if you're trying to protect the
assets the family home and things like that for your family,
so the creditors don't come and say, hey, mate, we
have everything that's yours.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Is ours, that's right, and they should indeed do that,
but of course they've got to be run right. So
I think of trust like insurance policy. So if you
go and get an insurance policy on your home, then
the insurer will say we will if your home burns down,
we will, we will pay out and we will reinstate.
But you have to meet certain conditions. So for example,
you've got to take care as the insurance as the insurance,
(10:53):
so you can't you can't, for example, I don't know,
like a barbecue in the middle of the lounge. You've
got to meet certain terms and conditions of the insurance policy.
So it's the same with trusts. If you're going to
have a trust and it acts like an insurance policy
for asset protection reasons, you've got to make sure it's
run right. So you can't just set it up, throw
it in the bottom for all and go okay, I'm
done now.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah? Is that what a lot of people do. They
set it up and they just forget about it, and
they forget to I don't know, what do you have.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
They forget your trustee meetings. For example, they forget to
include the independent trustee until the eleventh hour until possibly
maybe they're solicicis well have you spoke to the independent
trustee about that? And they don't do that at all,
and so those things really they cause the trust, in
my opinion, to lose integrity.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Do you need to explain in the establishment of a trust?
Is there need to be a record of why you've
established a trust? Because it's a bit so for instance,
I'm going to use a really funny analogy. Technically, if
you buy in the property world, if you buy a property,
and technically you are buying it to make capital gain,
(11:59):
regardless of how long time has passed, technically you should
pay tax on that capital gain. And that's about your intention.
Is there something when it comes to setting up a
trust that you need to declare? The reasons I'm setting
up a trust are sort of for these wonderful holistic
sort of reasons when really, in fact, you just don't
(12:20):
want your creditors to get hold of that money. If
you are bud we don't.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
We don't put reasons and trustee, okay, but what we
do do we as the settler that's the person that
sets up the trust. Well, often well usually ensured all
of my clients do they write memoranum and wishes and
those wishes that's that's a document that acts a little
bit like a will. If the if the if the
person's not a round anymore, if they've if they've you know,
(12:45):
if they've departed planet to a firma then the memorial
wishes comes in place and it says, well, please, trustees
do all of these things with the assets that in
the trust. Now in that memorial wishes document, you could
indeed put the intention there of why you've set it
up and what and what you want to happen to
the to the assets. So you could put that there
if you wanted.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
How can when it come? I mean, are there sort
of I know the obvious grunts of this question is
there's no one size that fits all. But are there
generic sort of trusts that would suit many people in
terms of just making basic protection of assets or are
they all quite complex and the way they have to
set it up. It's a bit like you can but
(13:25):
like you can have a will where you basically just say, look,
I mean, my property is going to my wife and
if she predeceases me and my two daughters, full stop,
sign and off, get it witnessed. All that sort of thing.
How complex do trust? How simple? Can they be there
we go. That's I was looking for.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
I suppose the answer is that establishing the trust is
really a matter of process and can be very easy,
but the terms of the trusteed need to fit the
circumstances of what we're dealing with and what we think
we're going to be dealing with in the future. Most
trusts that we establish New Zealand Family Trust services discretionary trusts,
(14:07):
and so what that means is that trustees have quite
wide powers and beneficiaries are entitled only to be considered.
They're not entitled as a right of anything. But there's
lots of different types of trust.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Is that the reason there's the reason that you have
a discretionary trust is because you don't want the beneficiaries
to be able to interfere and say, look, I'm the
sole beneficiary of this trust, or we're the only two beneficiaries.
We want to wrap it all up and take the
money now, or I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Question well, I.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Remember the cases that where if you're a beneficiary of
a long term trust and you know, somebody said, look,
we're going to put this money in trust for you,
but the beneficiaries like I'm the sole beneficiary, and it's
usually a deceased to state. I think that they can
sort of look through it and say, look, I want
it all now.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Well, even in discretionary trust, beneficiaries can band together to
bring the trust to an end. Okay, so all the
beneficiaries can band together if they wanted to, and they can.
They can use the Trust Act as a mechanism they
could apply to the courts. In fact, I was having
this conversation with a gentleman earlier this week about that
(15:19):
vote point.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
And while they were worried that about keeping putting a
trust together that would last the distance, well know that.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
What they had got themselves involved in as a trust,
their mother had had the trust actually, and they had
three individuals independent trustees, independent trustees, someone who's not beneficiary
again and layman terms to explain that term. And so
these three professionals were of course doing things that though beneficiary,
which he was was not very happy about. And my
(15:50):
advice to that was really trying and call a meeting
with the trustees to understand what they're doing and why
they're doing that and get some communication going.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
So were they acting in a way that the beneficiary
thought was not in the beneficiary's interests.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I think the beneficiary thought that the way they were
acting was costing a lot of money. Okay, But if
you looked at the assets of the trust and what
he told me, those independent trustees were doing exactly what
they were required to do at law. So I think
they were doing probably a fine job. But because of
(16:25):
the lack of communication, there's a lack of transparency, and
everybody get gets a little concerned or worried about that,
don't they.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Okay, we want your calls on this eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty if you've got any questions about trusts
and protecting your assets, maybe whether it be while you're
alive because you've got a family home you'd like to
protect and you taking a few risks in business, and
or after you've gone any questions around trusts. The two
(16:53):
things I've just outlined are just a fraction of the
landscape of how diverse trusts can be, of course, but
give us a call. We'd love to hear me on
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. In text on nine
to nine, who my guest is Janet Zukarashi's managing director
of New Zealand Family trust Services and we'll dig into
lots more questions after this, but you can jump the
gun right now on that number. Oh, eight hundred and
(17:15):
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Speaker 1 (18:18):
Z Your Weekend, Your Way to the Weekend Collective with
Tim Beverage News Talk zeb.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
News Talk z B wherewith Janet Zaccara talking trusts. Any
questions you might have and let's get into it, shall
we with Catherine Hello, Hi, Heny, guys, Good, thanks.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I have a question. My mother has her house and
the trust. Yeah, and she is the set lawn, the
beneficiary and a trustee. But she's wanting to go into
rest home level care. Do you know anything about the
DHB using trust or testing the trust as part of
(19:00):
the assets for westtern level care? Okay, so you have
to be under two hundred and ninety thousand assets. If
you have more than that, then you don't get the DHP.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Funding, That's right. And if you've got a lot more
than that, you have to spend your own money until
that's all you've got left.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Right, Yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Catherine, I'll go straight to this on janital on in
this book.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Yeah, that's a large area of debate so amongst people,
because you might recall that many years ago we would
set up trusts and pretty much we would divest ourselves
of all assets and then we would be almost guaranteed
to get a West Home subsidy. And West Time fees
are they can be really really high.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So thousands per week, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
They can be They can be thousands per week. And
so there are special rules under the Ministry of Social Welfare.
They have special rules on how they evaluate your assets
and and your wealth. The person that's heading into the
West Home and indeed if they're in a there's different
rules for that. The rules can be really complicated. And
what I would say is that I would I would
(20:11):
get somebody to really oversee those so either the law
your lawyer who might understand those rules, or even your accountant.
Green Lion is an accounting firm and Parnell and I
can tell you that they have a few of those
applications come through and the accountants look at that along
with the solicitors, and they work out whether it is
(20:31):
best to carry on with that trust or whether the
assets should really come out and be returned so that
the person can indeed get you know, might be eligible
for a subsidy, because just simply putting the assets in
the trust now will no longer mean that the government
won't look at those trusts at all. They do look
(20:52):
at them, and they look at when the you know,
when all the assets went in, what the what gifting
was done, at what time it was done.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So you're suggesting, Janet, it's really a case of if
you've done it a decade or more in advance.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It's potentially potentially And that's why I say it's worth
having your lawyers and your accountants look at that sort
of thing.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Right, Okay, So there's no seat answer, it's just you've
got to work.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I certainly no. So yeah, I think Jet, what Janet's
saying is that the fact that there's a trust does
not per se just protect assets and the government goes off, Fine,
here's the subsidy.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
And yes, and equally, just because there is a trust,
it doesn't mean that the person's never going to get
a rest time subsidy. I think that it's important that
it's looked at professionally when the application is being made.
That's what I'm trying to That's what I'm trying to
trying to get across.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
How long ago was the trust set up?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Oh twenty or more years ago, ages ago?
Speaker 4 (21:56):
And I wonder when they were doing the gifting. There
was a time I think it was about twenty ten
when people no longer I mean, you could always give
as much debt as you liked, but you know center
over twenty seven thousand you paid duty on so do
you remember then, tim it came in, but the never.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Law inflation adjusted, it's been twenty seven grand for ages.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Well, and then and you lock came in and everybody
could gift as much as they like without paying any duty.
And you had a lot of people do what was
called lump some gifting.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Except I've seen in because we've going to issue in
our family with this sort of stuff that in the
application for the subsidy, they have their own criteria which
limits gifting to twenty seven thousand a year. So it
doesn't matter what the law says. The rest time subsidy
looks at it in an old school way, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
And so so as a consequence of that, when people
lumped some gift, they diversed, They divested themselves of all
of their assets there and then, and that can cause
real issues when they're looking at whether they're going to
give a rest ho selfsidy or not.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Because you might have got rid of your assets. But
they behave as if you haven't and you don't have
control over those assets. So gosh, that's yes.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
So that's another reason why trust is so interesting. You see,
did you.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Get that sort of Catherine, how complixent it can be?
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Yes, thank you very much. I reappreciate it.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Great call. I mean, I know these are difficult things.
So yeah, So legally you can divest yourselves and of
whatever assets and a lump sum. But when it comes
to the rest time subsidy, they may say not good
enough because we only accept twenty seven thousand a.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Year, and that was back then it was twenty seven
thousand per person. But as soon as that law change
came in, then there was a court case a few
years later and it's twenty seven thousand per carple. Okay, yes,
so the rules change.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So if you've got a chunk of money, if you've
got a great deal of money, you're really going to
struggle to give away much of that. I mean, hang
on a minute, yes, I mean you could do it
ten years in advance and still only give that's only
twenty seven, two hundred and seventy thousand. So if you've
got millions, yes, good luck with the rest home substitution.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Of course the argument there as well, if you've got millions,
you should be paying a restaurant care.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Wow, you know we're opra hole kind of words there
with alistairs.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, I mean I shouldn't have gone millions, but I
mean literally the cook case could be you've simply got
a family home in I don't know, Saint John's.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
And that's what And that's over a million these.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Days, although if one of them still living in the
family home.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
True, and there's different rules there. That's which is why
I'm saying, go to the professionals and have a look
at that application with the professional So that's.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Just one call and we see how complex it is.
So let's continue and see where we go now with Brendan.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Hello, id good good, Yes, good good. Look Look I
haven't got a trust, but look I have been in
the building trade most of my life. Look, do you
use the word at the beginning of your speel, there
was there was devious and integrity built into.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
You said, traditional duties and all that way.
Speaker 6 (25:18):
If people owe money, and people owe creditors, why should
their assets be protected so they don't pay them. It
just seems like it's shirking their financial responsibilities to pay
their debts. They hide their money and a trust. And
then you know, the poor plumber or the or placemakers
(25:42):
or whatever say, should you go as to, oh no,
you can't touch that. It's all on a trust. When
you can't touch our house. I mean that that's much.
Really it's really immoral.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Well okay, let's but that's a lot of the objections
of people that are such and such as good it
all wrapped up in a trust. You know. Anyway, Janet,
what's your answer or.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
And I can understand that perspective. But there's also the
other perspective, Brandon, and that is this if everybody who
who goes into business with the with the best will
in the world, they're not out to, you know, to
rip anybody off. But but but issues happen which may
be no fault of their own. And I'll give you
a little example in a moment. If everybody starts off
(26:25):
like that, then you might get to find that New
Zealand no longer has an entrepreneurial spirit and nobody actually
wants to take the chance of going into business. I'm
going to give you an example of how how somebody
can end up in trouble and it's no fault off
their own.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
Yeah, that's just that's just an example.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
But I mean and and our land and our landscape
is littered with them, littered with them, these examples. So
here here is an instant where you are in business
and you're going to do business with somebody else and
they can't pay you, and so you end up not
being able to pay you know, your creditors. So it's
a run on effect. Now that's not that's not your fault,
(27:05):
that somebody else has fault, possibly, but it's a domino effect.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It's also pointing out, Brendon, that we do have a
company structure in New Zealand where unless you have been
I mean increasingly they can be looked through. But we
still we have a company structure where you set up
a business, you have the right amount of capital backing
it up, and you go from there. And the trust
is a step behind that in terms of protecting the
family home and stuff. I mean, it's a funny one.
I can understand what you say though, I mean, because I.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
See two sides to the argument.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
Yeah, is that you know, you get these people that
are owned you know, you know a million dollars and
they get ten cents from a dollar or something, you know,
because it's all the rest of the trust and they
and they've still got there, you know, a couple of
homes in their beach place and there you know, luxury
cars and those people.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
Yeah, the people that are owned Didley Squad.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
Really.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, it's it's constantly a tricky ethical issue, and I
think you know, there are a lot of people listening
to I mean there It is a tricky issue because
you do get people who you know that other creditors,
through no fauld of their own, they're the ones who
get left out of pocket.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Whereas, yeah, as I say, I can understand, I can
understand both sides of the coin in an issue like that.
But I can assure you the trust that we set
up and that we're involved in the people behind those
trusts are genuine, genuine people that are in business and
want to do well in business.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I think the thing is is that often high profile
there are hope, high profile cases where you think, got
somebody's company's gone bying and they're still cruising around in
a Lamborghini and all their creditors have been unpaid and
stuff and we can all think of examples where we go, well,
that's just something's wrong there.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yes, yeah, and I do take the point.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
But it's probably worth pointing out that there is quite
a hope. There's some high profile cases where people may
have been looking like they've been leaving high in the hog,
but actually the government's looking through their business dealings and
whether they've behaved in the right manner and they actually
are actually getting a certain come up. It's without mentioning
any names, but we can always imagine certain cases which
attract our attention in that respect. But you know what
(29:13):
we have to do next before we go to Jody
is we're going to take a quick break. Oh eight
hundred eight ten eighty twenty three minutes to six, Yes,
News Talk. Se'd be with Tim Beverage. My guest is
Janet Zucca. She's managing director of New Zealand Family Trust
Services Limited, talking about trusts. Any questions you've gotten, as
(29:36):
I say, you got to get in early because we'll
run out of time. But let's go to Jody. Hello, Hello, Hello,
you good things.
Speaker 8 (29:44):
I have a family, a trust and that my father's
house when he passed away was left in a living trust.
For me to be able to live in and to
have financial benefit from an example, to ren to the house,
and then when I pass, they go to my three
(30:05):
children who are who I suppose are the owners. So
in effect, I'm maintaining a property for the benefit benefit
of my children, which is a great thing.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
You're it's a life benefit, sure, aren't you, Jody. You
know you've got like a life interest in it.
Speaker 8 (30:21):
A life interest, that's right, And it does seem like
a burden at times. It feels like I'm maintaining this
property for the benefit Further down the track, one of
my children is old enough now, they've just graduated with
quite a prominent, you know, a good sensible degree and
(30:45):
can earn enough money. I'd like to know whether I
can draw on the the assets, the equity in this
house and be able to use that for her to
be able to buy another property, to be able to
set her up before I die, because I'm quite good
(31:07):
health at the moment, so I'm not planning on popping
the cross anytime soon. So i want to know how
good damn how do I benefit my children?
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Depend on the terms of the trusteed. So you'll need
you'll need somebody to read that trusteed and really help you,
help you through that to see what could actually be
done using the assets now to benefit the beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Who set the trust up.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
My father set the trust up, and he did it
in this way, I think because my partner wasn't very
good with business. He was about to go bankrupt, and
I was really worried that I would be bullied and
pressured and to be having put exactly And that was
a very real And.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
That's another reason why while we have trust, we are
going to have a massive transfer of wealth from generations
in the next twenty odd years, and a lot of
people are worried. A lot of parents are worried that
when the wealth transfers to their children who are who
are adults, but we'll call them children who are who
are children, that should anything happen in the child's relationship,
(32:25):
that the inheritance goes sidewards that it's you know, it's
fifty to fifty and you do that a couple of times,
and you know you end up.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
With them fifteen percent. Yeah, Actually, there'll be a lot
of eccet your your kids, they are actually beneficial beneficiaries.
You are the life beneficiary sort of whose interests precedes them.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Yeah. Yeah, So I think what JODI's saying is she
gets the use of the assets, but they're really held
in preservation ultimately for the final beneficiaries, which which from
this conversation appear to be the three children.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Because sometimes an example of that would, for instance, you
might be the life beneficiary of a property, so you
basically the family home goes to Jody and her children
get to benefit later on. Can that create problems with
Jodie's like, well, that's very nice, but I'd like to
sell this and get a different house.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Well, it can, but again the terms of the trusteed
may well be wide enough to permit it.
Speaker 8 (33:28):
Okay, And there are allowances for when I become a
listen old lady, if this property isn't suitable, one can
be secure. But of course, to financially help the children
into their own homes, yes, before say they're in their
late forties. Yeah, and that's the real question.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
That's a very good point. So a lot of parents
are you know, are doing that these days. In fact,
I've just written an article on that. It's going to
be on our website in the next three days. But
I've just written that article on how to help your
children into a home, and it may well be using
a trust so that your pets, so that the parents
giving the money or providing providing the werewall to as
(34:11):
a deposit or even a large large portion of the
purchase price, can ensure that it is protected in relationship times.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, so it looks like you'll need to get a
bit of advice on the text of that trust there, Jodi.
But it might be doable.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Maybe doable.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah, good on your Jody, really appreciate your call on that.
Let's go to Emma.
Speaker 9 (34:33):
Hello, Hi, Hi guys, Hey, this might be how long
is a piece of string type question? Jennah. I'm just
wondering if you've got original settler pass trust set up
about nineteen props nineteen years ago, three trustees that have
been there ever since the original settler's dead for beneficiaries.
(34:54):
One beneficiary has taken umbradge with the way the trust
has been run.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
How long?
Speaker 9 (34:59):
And you've got two cases slugging it out A lawyer
friend of mine set the people that make the money
here are it's been slugged at?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
How long?
Speaker 9 (35:06):
How long years can you expect it to go on?
I know it's a bit of a piece of strength,
you know, but really within reason, you know, like how long?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It's not that quo?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Maybe another way to phrase the question, how quickly could
we hope to have it sorted well?
Speaker 9 (35:22):
With the new laws that came out twenty nineteen. Surely
it's a lot clearer now, isn't it. I mean, it's
not that complex if you specialize in it.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
I don't get so the legislation has indeed helped us.
It has helped us, and in that regard, it has
strength and beneficiaries rights, and it's hold trustees, especially professional
trustees independent trustees, more accountable. And it does provide mechanisms
for example, if, for instance, if people can't agree, then
(35:52):
there is always the result to the courts. But I'd
like to think that professional trustees can sit down and
have rational conversations, and if beneficiaries or odds with each other,
then really trust can call meetings with beneficiaries and say well,
this is what we're tabling and this is the reason why.
Speaker 9 (36:11):
So it's not happening. Though you've got two cases like
I say, slugging it.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Out and other other trustees independent trustees where they also
beneficiaries of.
Speaker 9 (36:18):
The trust independent. One is not though, so.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
One is a trustee beneficiary? Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (36:25):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm just thinking how long, you know,
really and truly what's reasonable? I guess it could go
for years, couldn't it that.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Regard astronomical the cost would be dreadful, I would think
if it goes on and on like that. But in
that regard, if it's only one beneficiary, the trustees have
a duty to all of the beneficiaries. So to a degree,
the trustees have to step in and try and bring
some resolution to matters.
Speaker 9 (36:52):
I would have thought, hmm, okay, yeah, I just.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
What what what can you call a meeting with the trustees?
Speaker 9 (37:06):
Yes, yes, but yeah, just one is not, so I
can't say too much. But it's just interesting. I just thought,
you know, as an outsider, because I loved law and
looking at it, and it's just being involved as well though.
I was just thinking, how long can this possibly go on?
You know? Like I said, the only people making all
the money in the moment of the two cases, yes.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Involved, But like most animosity and divorces, I think the
only one is out of those.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Matters can indeed be they can be helped either by
the courts or by mediation. But in the very first instance,
I like to think that the trustees will sit down
because they and have a good chatter, because they they
do have duties to all beneficiaries, not just one beneficiary.
Speaker 9 (37:48):
Yeahry you benefit.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
What's your position here?
Speaker 9 (37:51):
I don't want to say too much, honestly, I really don't.
Not not on there. And if that can't work, then
the courts will sort it out pronto. Hope you know.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I do have just why you're I just asked this question.
I mean, could MS be without you know, as so
since you talk to the cass but is there a
way of MS seeking advice from somebody who's just you know,
knows a few things about trust to have a look
at it. I mean, could they talk? Could she talk
to you?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Or you could indeed you've you know, our company, New
Zealand Family Trust Services. So in the first instance, I
do take a lot of course from people and then
can help them a little bit along their way.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And you can manage that as well if you want to.
That's my suggestion, by the way, not not Janetus the MS.
If you want to, if you want to seek some
advice my place.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
If you've got a great lawyer who knows about trust,
so I would have a chat to them.
Speaker 9 (38:41):
Yeah, so you would say it's pretty specialized. Feel thank
you very much. Think guys, okay, thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
These are just as every time we'll get you on
I sort of think, God, this is actually quite fascinating
this stuff. We could talk for quite a long time,
but unfortunately we don't have much time. But we'll come back.
We'll see if we can squeeze on a call with
Ryan before we wrap things up. It is very quick call.
It is ten and a half minutes to six news talks.
You'd be it's time to squeeze in one more call
(39:20):
with Janets Occa from New Zealand Family Trust Services. By
the way, if you do want to actually get some
advice on trust, you're welcome to in touch with New
Zealand Family Trust Services and asked for Janet and I'm
sure she'd love to help you. But anyway, let's see
if we can squeeze in one more quick bit of
advice or help. Not we're not personalized advice, of course, Ryan, ullo.
Speaker 10 (39:37):
Sam, how are good? Thanks good? I'm just bringing so.
I was recently contacted by a family friend who just
in conversation let me know that I was going to
be I am his trustee for two of his trusts.
And I don't really know what to say about that
or how I felt about that. But I suppose my
(39:59):
question is should I try to find out from him
what the details of a trusts are in a stuff or.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Can I just understand that? Again? So your your friend
said that you are a trustee of the trust or
did he say you were bene fishery of the trust?
Speaker 10 (40:19):
He said, I'll be the trust the trustee.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
You're going to be the trustee or you are the
trustee now I am. Now, Well, if you were a
trustee now, you would have had to assign documentation. Okay,
that's the first thing I had to Okay, So you
would have had to sign documentation. And then you will
be bound by the trust out twenty nineteen and of
(40:42):
course or the common law, and there will be various
things that you will need to be doing. A quick
example of that is that you will need to know
what consists of the trust fund and be dealing with
that appropriately. But I can't see how you could be
a trustee if you've never signed anything.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Is this person your friend, is it because are they
saying that they've got you in their will as someone
who's going to be having some responsibility or something, or
is it about it literally a trust they say they've
set up now, so.
Speaker 10 (41:12):
He's had some trusts, and he's had trusts, he's had
some falling out with some fairly, I guess, and I
guess I'm the closest thing is something at the moment,
and maybe I guess, maybe I interpreted it wrong. Then
I'll go in too.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Be one or you might need to seek see some
clarity from it.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
But yes, so be very clear what exactly you are
now and what he wants you to do in the future.
But if you are a trustee, you do indeed have
duties now to attend to.
Speaker 10 (41:44):
Yeah, because I was wondering whether I needed to find
out what the details of it, and.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Sorry, we can't add for more help
with the right because a shorter time I did want
to answer this quick text says Tim, we have a
trust as we have a business. We only have a
family home and the trust as it's our only asset.
It costs us approximately a thousand bucks a year to
run it. Should we keep but not specific financial advice.
But I would tend to think if you've gone to
(42:09):
the trouble of keeping your house and a trust, I
would tend to keep it mysa.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
And if you're in business, yes, so that is your
that's your insurance policy I was talking about before. That's
the asset protection, providing that it's actually run quickly. We
for for our fees were six hundred and ninety five
a year, and we hold an annual trustee meeting with that,
so I guess that's a little bit cheaper. It's pretty
important to make sure that things are done annually to
(42:35):
ensure the trust retains its integrity and stands up should
anything happen in that business.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I probably wouldn't hurt to get a little bit of
advice from someone who's maybe not one of the trustees. Now,
just get some advice from someone about about why you
might want to keep it. That's all we can do.
But time flies, Janet.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Doesn't at the end of it. Yeah, Married Christmas to you, Tim,
and Merry Christmas to all of our listeners. I hope
that you have a really joyous and peaceful Christmas.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Indeed, and if you want to New Zealand Family Trust Services.
That's Janet Zaka zed u Ccoa. And thanks for my
producer Lock. Good job, Lock, and I'll catch I'll catch
you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock the Christmas Christmas Conveyor
Belt starts. Will catch you tomorrow. Open that bag.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
a bay.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Dashing through the snow in a one horse open sleigh.
All the fields we go, laughing all the way, bells
on bop, tail ring making spirits bride, What fun it
is to ride and sing a sling song to.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Night jingle bells, jingle walking back to Weekend Collective. Yeah,
a bit of a retro theme. What's some of the
music we're playing to this this afternoon. I'm Tim Beverage.
By the way, this is the Weekend Collective. But if
you hear any of the retro stuff, some of it is.
All of it is from an album called Christmas Cocktails,
which I bought it. I bought the CD of it
(02:22):
Donkeys years ago, and it's one of those go to things.
It's got a nice sort of feel good sort of
you know, retro up tempo sort of feel to things.
And yeah, then I saved it to Spotify and it
is one of my regular go tos, among other albums
of course. But it's called Christmas Cocktails. If you're curious,
I'm looking for it and I have no vested interest
in it, by the way, just to share with you anyway,
right now, welcome back and if you've missed any of
(02:44):
the ours are interesting always fantastic chat to Allison Gofton
about the pre sort of Christmas and catering and food
and ideas like that as well. And now this is Look,
we often have many calls on the show, but they
sometimes people save it till the end and then they
find they miss out. But we we want your participation.
(03:06):
You can jump on the blow whenever you want if
you've got any questions on this on one hundred and
eighty ten eighty or text nine two nine two for
this our smart money and so look. Of course right
now everyone's running around trying to sort out your last
minute shopping, not spending too much. But there is the
question that what we're going to explore is, you know
what we want to talk about, what do you do
(03:28):
with the money and wealth that you would like to
either keep in your hot little hands or maybe have
it give to your family once you've gone. And so trusts,
that's what we're going to be talking about, which have
often have often are often seen as the province of
the uber wealthy. But are they I mean, should you
be thinking about a trust? When should you think about
(03:50):
a trust inheritances, what's going to happen to our money
when we aren't around look after it? And how much
control can you actually have with your property once you're
out of the picture. So we're going to talk about that.
Should everyone have a family trust? Who shouldn't worry about it?
When do trust? Absolutely make sense? A huge number of
questions around it, But anyway to discuss that and to
(04:14):
take your causes and Dish had a bit of non
specific advice. Of course we don't give specific financial advice.
She is managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services
Limited and her name is Janet Zukoa and Janet is
with me now, Janet High, How are you?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Hello, Tim? And hello to all of our listens.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Christmas to everybody, Yeah, compliments of this.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Do you like Christmas? I love Christmas?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Is it just the time of year because we like
the summer? Do you like the sort of decorations? Is
it the food? Is it the giving it?
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I love the cows, I love all the traditions. I
love decorating the tree and you know, to be really honest,
I love the presence.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah. Actually the music. I do love Christmas music. I've
got a daughter who plays music. In fact, I sort
of said, it's not really Christmas, honey. She s love
Christmas music, so she plays it for several months of
the year. But I do quite like at z B.
Once first of December textover, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That's what makes you feel happy and bubbly.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, And we've all got our favorites.
Of course, I don't get the Kylie minogue one which
is apparently hit number one. She's got a song on
the Xmas and I listened to it and watched it.
I thought, I have no idea why that's popular. Maybe
it's just because people love Kylie. But anyway, don't even
waste your time people looking at it's just dreadful. Anyway,
let's talk about trusts. How have you been tell us
(05:34):
a bit. I mean, you've been on the ship. We've
had you on the show two or three times now.
I think this is but just for those you haven't
haven't heard you before, tell us a little bit about
you and your background and involvement with trusts.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So I run New Zealand Family Trust Services, which is
a very large trust provider in New Zealand. Will not
only act as independent trustee for many trusts, but we
also offer an administration service for trusts as well, so
sometimes we're not an independent trustee, but we do offer
administration services for my sins. I've got a law degree
(06:09):
and an accounting degree. I'm not carrying current practice certificates
in either of those fields because I don't need to,
but it does make it very helpful because when something
crosses your desk, you look at something and you think,
I think maybe we should have a lawyer on this.
And we had something the other day what appeared to
be a really well written shareholders agreement until I've had
(06:30):
a good read of it and asked the client where
he got that from, and that was care of Google
Land and AI, which didn't suit the circumstances at all.
So of course we had to we had to direct
and back to back to a lawyer to actually get
some proper advice. And it's the same in the accounting field.
(06:53):
We had had another client give us some documentation and
when I looked at that, I just thought, I think
we should really talk to their accountant because that could
trigger all sorts of tax complications. So the knowledge that
I have, although I'm not carrying carrying compaxes if it
doesn't need help, because you can then direct them back
to the right professionals so that no mistakes occur.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
What got you interested in trusts?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Ah, it's fascinating. It's intellectually really challenging. Your trusts are
meant are meant to reflect the moral values and standards
of society, and of course that's forever changing. It's an evolution,
and so that brings into the judiciary and with their
court cases and the decisions that they're making, and what
(07:41):
might appear to be incredibly obvious often is not the
law and goes against it goes against how things actually
are in trust land.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
They're an interesting creation. I remember when I studied equity,
which is the subject we've first introduced to trust. I
think it was quite fascinated just with the fact that
you could create a particular legal entity which vested someone.
But I'm not going to try and explain trust, but
just the fact that you would have a legal entity
which would be like it's a legal personal most doesn't
(08:13):
it They explain what a trust is well.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
First off, it's from purely a legal perspective. It is
not a legal entity. It's a relationship. It's a fuduciary relationship.
And people do have feuduciary relationships. We've all got them.
You've got a fuduciary relationship with your doctor. Your doctor
is meant to know better than you, and when you
go to go to them, they are meant to treat
you to the best of their ability. And your interests
(08:38):
are paramount or.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Blood, obligations of good faith, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
And all those sorts of things. And so that's what
trustees are about. Trustees are duties of care and other
duties of course to the beneficiaries, and so they have
a fiduciary relationship to make sure that they are looking
after and serving the beneficiaries in the best way possible.
That's quite loose, by the way, but that's a good
explanation for late people.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I'd be curious to know what percentage of people who
seek advice about getting a trust are doing it too
late that when they get the advice, they go I
should have done this twenty years.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
A lot of people, a lot of people. I set
up my first trust when I was nineteen, and that
was the very first asset I bought within trust. And
I think that that's great advice not everybody should have
a trust, but you really want to try and set
one up before before you need it. So if you're
going into business, everybody goes into business in stunts with
(09:43):
great intentions of being highly successful, so they plan lots
for success, but they never plan for failure. So you
want to You can't set a trust up when the
creditors are knocking down the door and the receiver's about
to walk through. So you want to make sure that
whilst you're planning for success, you're also planning that if
there's a rainy day that comes along, that you are
(10:03):
well and truly prepared for that. So trust a great
asset protection devices, but they've got to be put in
place well in advance.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, because basically what a trust would do is so
if you've got into a business and it goes bug
that if you've managed to get your assets into a
trust in a timely manner, then those assets will be protected.
And I guess especially if you're trying to protect the
assets the family home and things like that for your family,
so the creditors don't come and say, hey, mate, we
have everything that's yours.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Is ours, that's right, and they should indeed do that,
but of course they've got to be run right. So
I think of trust like insurance policy. So if you
go and get an insurance policy on your home, then
the insurer will say we will if your home burns down,
we will, we will pay out and we will reinstate.
But you have to meet certain conditions. So for example,
you've got to take care as the insurance as the insurance,
(10:53):
so you can't you can't, for example, I don't know,
like a barbecue in the middle of the lounge. You've
got to meet certain terms and conditions of the insurance policy.
So it's the same with trusts. If you're going to
have a trust and it acts like an insurance policy
for asset protection reasons, you've got to make sure it's
run right. So you can't just set it up, throw
it in the bottom for all and go okay, I'm
done now.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah? Is that what a lot of people do. They
set it up and they just forget about it, and
they forget to I don't know, what do you have.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
They forget your trustee meetings. For example, they forget to
include the independent trustee until the eleventh hour until possibly
maybe they're solicicis well have you spoke to the independent
trustee about that? And they don't do that at all,
and so those things really they cause the trust, in
my opinion, to lose integrity.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Do you need to explain in the establishment of a trust?
Is there need to be a record of why you've
established a trust? Because it's a bit so for instance,
I'm going to use a really funny analogy. Technically, if
you buy in the property world, if you buy a property,
and technically you are buying it to make capital gain,
(11:59):
regardless of how long time has passed, technically you should
pay tax on that capital gain. And that's about your intention.
Is there something when it comes to setting up a
trust that you need to declare? The reasons I'm setting
up a trust are sort of for these wonderful holistic
sort of reasons when really, in fact, you just don't
(12:20):
want your creditors to get hold of that money. If
you are bud we don't.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
We don't put reasons and trustee, okay, but what we
do do we as the settler that's the person that
sets up the trust. Well, often well usually ensured all
of my clients do they write memoranum and wishes and
those wishes that's that's a document that acts a little
bit like a will. If the if the if the
person's not a round anymore, if they've if they've you know,
(12:45):
if they've departed planet to a firma then the memorial
wishes comes in place and it says, well, please, trustees
do all of these things with the assets that in
the trust. Now in that memorial wishes document, you could
indeed put the intention there of why you've set it
up and what and what you want to happen to
the to the assets. So you could put that there
if you wanted.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
How can when it come? I mean, are there sort
of I know the obvious grunts of this question is
there's no one size that fits all. But are there
generic sort of trusts that would suit many people in
terms of just making basic protection of assets or are
they all quite complex and the way they have to
set it up. It's a bit like you can but
(13:25):
like you can have a will where you basically just say, look,
I mean, my property is going to my wife and
if she predeceases me and my two daughters, full stop,
sign and off, get it witnessed. All that sort of thing.
How complex do trust? How simple? Can they be there
we go. That's I was looking for.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
I suppose the answer is that establishing the trust is
really a matter of process and can be very easy,
but the terms of the trusteed need to fit the
circumstances of what we're dealing with and what we think
we're going to be dealing with in the future. Most
trusts that we establish New Zealand Family Trust services discretionary trusts,
(14:07):
and so what that means is that trustees have quite
wide powers and beneficiaries are entitled only to be considered.
They're not entitled as a right of anything. But there's
lots of different types of trust.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Is that the reason there's the reason that you have
a discretionary trust is because you don't want the beneficiaries
to be able to interfere and say, look, I'm the
sole beneficiary of this trust, or we're the only two beneficiaries.
We want to wrap it all up and take the
money now, or I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Question well, I.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Remember the cases that where if you're a beneficiary of
a long term trust and you know, somebody said, look,
we're going to put this money in trust for you,
but the beneficiaries like I'm the sole beneficiary, and it's
usually a deceased to state. I think that they can
sort of look through it and say, look, I want
it all now.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Well, even in discretionary trust, beneficiaries can band together to
bring the trust to an end. Okay, so all the
beneficiaries can band together if they wanted to, and they can.
They can use the Trust Act as a mechanism they
could apply to the courts. In fact, I was having
this conversation with a gentleman earlier this week about that
(15:19):
vote point.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
And while they were worried that about keeping putting a
trust together that would last the distance, well know that.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
What they had got themselves involved in as a trust,
their mother had had the trust actually, and they had
three individuals independent trustees, independent trustees, someone who's not beneficiary
again and layman terms to explain that term. And so
these three professionals were of course doing things that though beneficiary,
which he was was not very happy about. And my
(15:50):
advice to that was really trying and call a meeting
with the trustees to understand what they're doing and why
they're doing that and get some communication going.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
So were they acting in a way that the beneficiary
thought was not in the beneficiary's interests.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I think the beneficiary thought that the way they were
acting was costing a lot of money. Okay, But if
you looked at the assets of the trust and what
he told me, those independent trustees were doing exactly what
they were required to do at law. So I think
they were doing probably a fine job. But because of
(16:25):
the lack of communication, there's a lack of transparency, and
everybody get gets a little concerned or worried about that,
don't they.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Okay, we want your calls on this eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty if you've got any questions about trusts
and protecting your assets, maybe whether it be while you're
alive because you've got a family home you'd like to
protect and you taking a few risks in business, and
or after you've gone any questions around trusts. The two
(16:53):
things I've just outlined are just a fraction of the
landscape of how diverse trusts can be, of course, but
give us a call. We'd love to hear me on
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. In text on nine
to nine, who my guest is Janet Zukarashi's managing director
of New Zealand Family trust Services and we'll dig into
lots more questions after this, but you can jump the
gun right now on that number. Oh, eight hundred and
(17:15):
eighty ten eighty, it's twenty two past five. News Talk
seed B. Yes, News Talk sed B. By the way,
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Speaker 1 (18:18):
Z Your Weekend, Your Way to the Weekend Collective with
Tim Beverage News Talk zeb.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
News Talk z B wherewith Janet Zaccara talking trusts. Any
questions you might have and let's get into it, shall
we with Catherine Hello, Hi, Heny, guys, Good, thanks.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I have a question. My mother has her house and
the trust. Yeah, and she is the set lawn, the
beneficiary and a trustee. But she's wanting to go into
rest home level care. Do you know anything about the
DHB using trust or testing the trust as part of
(19:00):
the assets for westtern level care? Okay, so you have
to be under two hundred and ninety thousand assets. If
you have more than that, then you don't get the DHP.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Funding, That's right. And if you've got a lot more
than that, you have to spend your own money until
that's all you've got left.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Right, Yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Catherine, I'll go straight to this on janital on in
this book.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Yeah, that's a large area of debate so amongst people,
because you might recall that many years ago we would
set up trusts and pretty much we would divest ourselves
of all assets and then we would be almost guaranteed
to get a West Home subsidy. And West Time fees
are they can be really really high.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So thousands per week, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
They can be They can be thousands per week. And
so there are special rules under the Ministry of Social Welfare.
They have special rules on how they evaluate your assets
and and your wealth. The person that's heading into the
West Home and indeed if they're in a there's different
rules for that. The rules can be really complicated. And
what I would say is that I would I would
(20:11):
get somebody to really oversee those so either the law
your lawyer who might understand those rules, or even your accountant.
Green Lion is an accounting firm and Parnell and I
can tell you that they have a few of those
applications come through and the accountants look at that along
with the solicitors, and they work out whether it is
(20:31):
best to carry on with that trust or whether the
assets should really come out and be returned so that
the person can indeed get you know, might be eligible
for a subsidy, because just simply putting the assets in
the trust now will no longer mean that the government
won't look at those trusts at all. They do look
(20:52):
at them, and they look at when the you know,
when all the assets went in, what the what gifting
was done, at what time it was done.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So you're suggesting, Janet, it's really a case of if
you've done it a decade or more in advance.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It's potentially potentially And that's why I say it's worth
having your lawyers and your accountants look at that sort
of thing.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Right, Okay, So there's no seat answer, it's just you've
got to work.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I certainly no. So yeah, I think Jet, what Janet's
saying is that the fact that there's a trust does
not per se just protect assets and the government goes off, Fine,
here's the subsidy.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
And yes, and equally, just because there is a trust,
it doesn't mean that the person's never going to get
a rest time subsidy. I think that it's important that
it's looked at professionally when the application is being made.
That's what I'm trying to That's what I'm trying to
trying to get across.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
How long ago was the trust set up?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Oh twenty or more years ago, ages ago?
Speaker 4 (21:56):
And I wonder when they were doing the gifting. There
was a time I think it was about twenty ten
when people no longer I mean, you could always give
as much debt as you liked, but you know center
over twenty seven thousand you paid duty on so do
you remember then, tim it came in, but the never.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Law inflation adjusted, it's been twenty seven grand for ages.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Well, and then and you lock came in and everybody
could gift as much as they like without paying any duty.
And you had a lot of people do what was
called lump some gifting.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Except I've seen in because we've going to issue in
our family with this sort of stuff that in the
application for the subsidy, they have their own criteria which
limits gifting to twenty seven thousand a year. So it
doesn't matter what the law says. The rest time subsidy
looks at it in an old school way, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
And so so as a consequence of that, when people
lumped some gift, they diversed, They divested themselves of all
of their assets there and then, and that can cause
real issues when they're looking at whether they're going to
give a rest ho selfsidy or not.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Because you might have got rid of your assets. But
they behave as if you haven't and you don't have
control over those assets. So gosh, that's yes.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
So that's another reason why trust is so interesting. You see,
did you.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Get that sort of Catherine, how complixent it can be?
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Yes, thank you very much. I reappreciate it.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Great call. I mean, I know these are difficult things.
So yeah, So legally you can divest yourselves and of
whatever assets and a lump sum. But when it comes
to the rest time subsidy, they may say not good
enough because we only accept twenty seven thousand a.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Year, and that was back then it was twenty seven
thousand per person. But as soon as that law change
came in, then there was a court case a few
years later and it's twenty seven thousand per carple. Okay, yes,
so the rules change.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So if you've got a chunk of money, if you've
got a great deal of money, you're really going to
struggle to give away much of that. I mean, hang
on a minute, yes, I mean you could do it
ten years in advance and still only give that's only
twenty seven, two hundred and seventy thousand. So if you've
got millions, yes, good luck with the rest home substitution.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Of course the argument there as well, if you've got millions,
you should be paying a restaurant care.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Wow, you know we're opra hole kind of words there
with alistairs.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, I mean I shouldn't have gone millions, but I
mean literally the cook case could be you've simply got
a family home in I don't know, Saint John's.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
And that's what And that's over a million these.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Days, although if one of them still living in the
family home.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
True, and there's different rules there. That's which is why
I'm saying, go to the professionals and have a look
at that application with the professional So that's.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Just one call and we see how complex it is.
So let's continue and see where we go now with Brendan.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Hello, id good good, Yes, good good. Look Look I
haven't got a trust, but look I have been in
the building trade most of my life. Look, do you
use the word at the beginning of your speel, there
was there was devious and integrity built into.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
You said, traditional duties and all that way.
Speaker 6 (25:18):
If people owe money, and people owe creditors, why should
their assets be protected so they don't pay them. It
just seems like it's shirking their financial responsibilities to pay
their debts. They hide their money and a trust. And
then you know, the poor plumber or the or placemakers
(25:42):
or whatever say, should you go as to, oh no,
you can't touch that. It's all on a trust. When
you can't touch our house. I mean that that's much.
Really it's really immoral.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Well okay, let's but that's a lot of the objections
of people that are such and such as good it
all wrapped up in a trust. You know. Anyway, Janet,
what's your answer or.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
And I can understand that perspective. But there's also the
other perspective, Brandon, and that is this if everybody who
who goes into business with the with the best will
in the world, they're not out to, you know, to
rip anybody off. But but but issues happen which may
be no fault of their own. And I'll give you
a little example in a moment. If everybody starts off
(26:25):
like that, then you might get to find that New
Zealand no longer has an entrepreneurial spirit and nobody actually
wants to take the chance of going into business. I'm
going to give you an example of how how somebody
can end up in trouble and it's no fault off
their own.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
Yeah, that's just that's just an example.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
But I mean and and our land and our landscape
is littered with them, littered with them, these examples. So
here here is an instant where you are in business
and you're going to do business with somebody else and
they can't pay you, and so you end up not
being able to pay you know, your creditors. So it's
a run on effect. Now that's not that's not your fault,
(27:05):
that somebody else has fault, possibly, but it's a domino effect.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It's also pointing out, Brendon, that we do have a
company structure in New Zealand where unless you have been
I mean increasingly they can be looked through. But we
still we have a company structure where you set up
a business, you have the right amount of capital backing
it up, and you go from there. And the trust
is a step behind that in terms of protecting the
family home and stuff. I mean, it's a funny one.
I can understand what you say though, I mean, because I.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
See two sides to the argument.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
Yeah, is that you know, you get these people that
are owned you know, you know a million dollars and
they get ten cents from a dollar or something, you know,
because it's all the rest of the trust and they
and they've still got there, you know, a couple of
homes in their beach place and there you know, luxury
cars and those people.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
Yeah, the people that are owned Didley Squad.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
Really.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, it's it's constantly a tricky ethical issue, and I
think you know, there are a lot of people listening
to I mean there It is a tricky issue because
you do get people who you know that other creditors,
through no fauld of their own, they're the ones who
get left out of pocket.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Whereas, yeah, as I say, I can understand, I can
understand both sides of the coin in an issue like that.
But I can assure you the trust that we set
up and that we're involved in the people behind those
trusts are genuine, genuine people that are in business and
want to do well in business.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I think the thing is is that often high profile
there are hope, high profile cases where you think, got
somebody's company's gone bying and they're still cruising around in
a Lamborghini and all their creditors have been unpaid and
stuff and we can all think of examples where we go, well,
that's just something's wrong there.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yes, yeah, and I do take the point.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
But it's probably worth pointing out that there is quite
a hope. There's some high profile cases where people may
have been looking like they've been leaving high in the hog,
but actually the government's looking through their business dealings and
whether they've behaved in the right manner and they actually
are actually getting a certain come up. It's without mentioning
any names, but we can always imagine certain cases which
attract our attention in that respect. But you know what
(29:13):
we have to do next before we go to Jody
is we're going to take a quick break. Oh eight
hundred eight ten eighty twenty three minutes to six, Yes,
News Talk. Se'd be with Tim Beverage. My guest is
Janet Zucca. She's managing director of New Zealand Family Trust
Services Limited, talking about trusts. Any questions you've gotten, as
(29:36):
I say, you got to get in early because we'll
run out of time. But let's go to Jody. Hello, Hello, Hello,
you good things.
Speaker 8 (29:44):
I have a family, a trust and that my father's
house when he passed away was left in a living trust.
For me to be able to live in and to
have financial benefit from an example, to ren to the house,
and then when I pass, they go to my three
(30:05):
children who are who I suppose are the owners. So
in effect, I'm maintaining a property for the benefit benefit
of my children, which is a great thing.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
You're it's a life benefit, sure, aren't you, Jody. You
know you've got like a life interest in it.
Speaker 8 (30:21):
A life interest, that's right, And it does seem like
a burden at times. It feels like I'm maintaining this
property for the benefit Further down the track, one of
my children is old enough now, they've just graduated with
quite a prominent, you know, a good sensible degree and
(30:45):
can earn enough money. I'd like to know whether I
can draw on the the assets, the equity in this
house and be able to use that for her to
be able to buy another property, to be able to
set her up before I die, because I'm quite good
(31:07):
health at the moment, so I'm not planning on popping
the cross anytime soon. So i want to know how
good damn how do I benefit my children?
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Depend on the terms of the trusteed. So you'll need
you'll need somebody to read that trusteed and really help you,
help you through that to see what could actually be
done using the assets now to benefit the beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Who set the trust up.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
My father set the trust up, and he did it
in this way, I think because my partner wasn't very
good with business. He was about to go bankrupt, and
I was really worried that I would be bullied and
pressured and to be having put exactly And that was
a very real And.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
That's another reason why while we have trust, we are
going to have a massive transfer of wealth from generations
in the next twenty odd years, and a lot of
people are worried. A lot of parents are worried that
when the wealth transfers to their children who are who
are adults, but we'll call them children who are who
are children, that should anything happen in the child's relationship,
(32:25):
that the inheritance goes sidewards that it's you know, it's
fifty to fifty and you do that a couple of times,
and you know you end up.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
With them fifteen percent. Yeah, Actually, there'll be a lot
of eccet your your kids, they are actually beneficial beneficiaries.
You are the life beneficiary sort of whose interests precedes them.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Yeah. Yeah, So I think what JODI's saying is she
gets the use of the assets, but they're really held
in preservation ultimately for the final beneficiaries, which which from
this conversation appear to be the three children.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Because sometimes an example of that would, for instance, you
might be the life beneficiary of a property, so you
basically the family home goes to Jody and her children
get to benefit later on. Can that create problems with
Jodie's like, well, that's very nice, but I'd like to
sell this and get a different house.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Well, it can, but again the terms of the trusteed
may well be wide enough to permit it.
Speaker 8 (33:28):
Okay, And there are allowances for when I become a
listen old lady, if this property isn't suitable, one can
be secure. But of course, to financially help the children
into their own homes, yes, before say they're in their
late forties. Yeah, and that's the real question.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
That's a very good point. So a lot of parents
are you know, are doing that these days. In fact,
I've just written an article on that. It's going to
be on our website in the next three days. But
I've just written that article on how to help your
children into a home, and it may well be using
a trust so that your pets, so that the parents
giving the money or providing providing the werewall to as
(34:11):
a deposit or even a large large portion of the
purchase price, can ensure that it is protected in relationship times.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, so it looks like you'll need to get a
bit of advice on the text of that trust there, Jodi.
But it might be doable.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Maybe doable.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah, good on your Jody, really appreciate your call on that.
Let's go to Emma.
Speaker 9 (34:33):
Hello, Hi, Hi guys, Hey, this might be how long
is a piece of string type question? Jennah. I'm just
wondering if you've got original settler pass trust set up
about nineteen props nineteen years ago, three trustees that have
been there ever since the original settler's dead for beneficiaries.
(34:54):
One beneficiary has taken umbradge with the way the trust
has been run.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
How long?
Speaker 9 (34:59):
And you've got two cases slugging it out A lawyer
friend of mine set the people that make the money
here are it's been slugged at?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
How long?
Speaker 9 (35:06):
How long years can you expect it to go on?
I know it's a bit of a piece of strength,
you know, but really within reason, you know, like how long?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It's not that quo?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Maybe another way to phrase the question, how quickly could
we hope to have it sorted well?
Speaker 9 (35:22):
With the new laws that came out twenty nineteen. Surely
it's a lot clearer now, isn't it. I mean, it's
not that complex if you specialize in it.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
I don't get so the legislation has indeed helped us.
It has helped us, and in that regard, it has
strength and beneficiaries rights, and it's hold trustees, especially professional
trustees independent trustees, more accountable. And it does provide mechanisms
for example, if, for instance, if people can't agree, then
(35:52):
there is always the result to the courts. But I'd
like to think that professional trustees can sit down and
have rational conversations, and if beneficiaries or odds with each other,
then really trust can call meetings with beneficiaries and say well,
this is what we're tabling and this is the reason why.
Speaker 9 (36:11):
So it's not happening. Though you've got two cases like
I say, slugging it.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Out and other other trustees independent trustees where they also
beneficiaries of.
Speaker 9 (36:18):
The trust independent. One is not though, so.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
One is a trustee beneficiary? Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (36:25):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm just thinking how long, you know,
really and truly what's reasonable? I guess it could go
for years, couldn't it that.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Regard astronomical the cost would be dreadful, I would think
if it goes on and on like that. But in
that regard, if it's only one beneficiary, the trustees have
a duty to all of the beneficiaries. So to a degree,
the trustees have to step in and try and bring
some resolution to matters.
Speaker 9 (36:52):
I would have thought, hmm, okay, yeah, I just.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
What what what can you call a meeting with the trustees?
Speaker 9 (37:06):
Yes, yes, but yeah, just one is not, so I
can't say too much. But it's just interesting. I just thought,
you know, as an outsider, because I loved law and
looking at it, and it's just being involved as well though.
I was just thinking, how long can this possibly go on?
You know? Like I said, the only people making all
the money in the moment of the two cases, yes.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Involved, But like most animosity and divorces, I think the
only one is out of those.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Matters can indeed be they can be helped either by
the courts or by mediation. But in the very first instance,
I like to think that the trustees will sit down
because they and have a good chatter, because they they
do have duties to all beneficiaries, not just one beneficiary.
Speaker 9 (37:48):
Yeahry you benefit.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
What's your position here?
Speaker 9 (37:51):
I don't want to say too much, honestly, I really don't.
Not not on there. And if that can't work, then
the courts will sort it out pronto. Hope you know.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I do have just why you're I just asked this question.
I mean, could MS be without you know, as so
since you talk to the cass but is there a
way of MS seeking advice from somebody who's just you know,
knows a few things about trust to have a look
at it. I mean, could they talk? Could she talk
to you?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Or you could indeed you've you know, our company, New
Zealand Family Trust Services. So in the first instance, I
do take a lot of course from people and then
can help them a little bit along their way.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And you can manage that as well if you want to.
That's my suggestion, by the way, not not Janetus the MS.
If you want to, if you want to seek some
advice my place.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
If you've got a great lawyer who knows about trust,
so I would have a chat to them.
Speaker 9 (38:41):
Yeah, so you would say it's pretty specialized. Feel thank
you very much. Think guys, okay, thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
These are just as every time we'll get you on
I sort of think, God, this is actually quite fascinating
this stuff. We could talk for quite a long time,
but unfortunately we don't have much time. But we'll come back.
We'll see if we can squeeze on a call with
Ryan before we wrap things up. It is very quick call.
It is ten and a half minutes to six news talks.
You'd be it's time to squeeze in one more call
(39:20):
with Janets Occa from New Zealand Family Trust Services. By
the way, if you do want to actually get some
advice on trust, you're welcome to in touch with New
Zealand Family Trust Services and asked for Janet and I'm
sure she'd love to help you. But anyway, let's see
if we can squeeze in one more quick bit of
advice or help. Not we're not personalized advice, of course, Ryan, ullo.
Speaker 10 (39:37):
Sam, how are good? Thanks good? I'm just bringing so.
I was recently contacted by a family friend who just
in conversation let me know that I was going to
be I am his trustee for two of his trusts.
And I don't really know what to say about that
or how I felt about that. But I suppose my
(39:59):
question is should I try to find out from him
what the details of a trusts are in a stuff or.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Can I just understand that? Again? So your your friend
said that you are a trustee of the trust or
did he say you were bene fishery of the trust?
Speaker 10 (40:19):
He said, I'll be the trust the trustee.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
You're going to be the trustee or you are the
trustee now I am. Now, Well, if you were a
trustee now, you would have had to assign documentation. Okay,
that's the first thing I had to Okay, So you
would have had to sign documentation. And then you will
be bound by the trust out twenty nineteen and of
(40:42):
course or the common law, and there will be various
things that you will need to be doing. A quick
example of that is that you will need to know
what consists of the trust fund and be dealing with
that appropriately. But I can't see how you could be
a trustee if you've never signed anything.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Is this person your friend, is it because are they
saying that they've got you in their will as someone
who's going to be having some responsibility or something, or
is it about it literally a trust they say they've
set up now, so.
Speaker 10 (41:12):
He's had some trusts, and he's had trusts, he's had
some falling out with some fairly, I guess, and I
guess I'm the closest thing is something at the moment,
and maybe I guess, maybe I interpreted it wrong. Then
I'll go in too.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Be one or you might need to seek see some
clarity from it.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
But yes, so be very clear what exactly you are
now and what he wants you to do in the future.
But if you are a trustee, you do indeed have
duties now to attend to.
Speaker 10 (41:44):
Yeah, because I was wondering whether I needed to find
out what the details of it, and.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Sorry, we can't add for more help
with the right because a shorter time I did want
to answer this quick text says Tim, we have a
trust as we have a business. We only have a
family home and the trust as it's our only asset.
It costs us approximately a thousand bucks a year to
run it. Should we keep but not specific financial advice.
But I would tend to think if you've gone to
(42:09):
the trouble of keeping your house and a trust, I
would tend to keep it mysa.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
And if you're in business, yes, so that is your
that's your insurance policy I was talking about before. That's
the asset protection, providing that it's actually run quickly. We
for for our fees were six hundred and ninety five
a year, and we hold an annual trustee meeting with that,
so I guess that's a little bit cheaper. It's pretty
important to make sure that things are done annually to
(42:35):
ensure the trust retains its integrity and stands up should
anything happen in that business.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I probably wouldn't hurt to get a little bit of
advice from someone who's maybe not one of the trustees. Now,
just get some advice from someone about about why you
might want to keep it. That's all we can do.
But time flies, Janet.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Doesn't at the end of it. Yeah, Married Christmas to you, Tim,
and Merry Christmas to all of our listeners. I hope
that you have a really joyous and peaceful Christmas.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Indeed, and if you want to New Zealand Family Trust Services.
That's Janet Zaka zed u Ccoa. And thanks for my
producer Lock. Good job, Lock, and I'll catch I'll catch
you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock the Christmas Christmas Conveyor
Belt starts. Will catch you tomorrow. Open that bag.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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