October 15, 2025 • 10 mins
Questions have been asked of the New Zealand secondary schools' rugby pathways after conceding 136 points over two games and suffering consecutive losses to the Australian U18 side.
The Australian players spend years playing together, going through and going through Super Rugby stages, whereas New Zealand has significantly less for young players
Former All Black and current rugby player agent Craig Innes discussed the issues impacting the current pathways.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldegrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well. Massive issues. That's how Craig, in his former All
Black form of the Rugby League Player and the Arl
Days and now a rugby player agent with Wassaman Sports,
has described the New Zealand rugby pathway system on the
back of the two big losses for the New Zealand
secondary school side one hundred and thirty six points they
conceded in two games against the Australian Under eighteens a
(00:33):
couple of weeks ago. Craig incidentally was actually over in
Canberra to watch some of the action when they got belted,
and said in the interview with New Zealand he all
today massive issues in the game and things that certainly
need to be fixed because we're going to look in
five and six years time back potentially at these results.
Craig joins us now to elaborate on exactly what those
(00:54):
issues are. Craig, thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thanks mus being.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, what was your reaction watching those defeats unfold over
the last couple of weeks, Pretty heavy defeats for the
New Zealand schoolboys.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, yeah, I guess, like everyone, you know, surprised that
that you know, any New Zealand team rugby team would
have would have those types of results, and and and
and and certainly you know that New Zealand Schools team
as a prestigious team. You know, it's made up of
(01:30):
of of all of his talent. You know that we
we feel here in New Zealand should be able to
mix it with anyone in the world. And so yeah,
so it was, it was. It was pretty tough watching,
to be honest, especially knowing that you know a lot
of these these kids are a bloody good footballers, He's
no doubt about that. But I guess my concern is
the bigger picture and and and actually you know we're
(01:52):
the gamers at the moment. And why you know we've
seen results on this.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Do you think a lot of it or all of
it is down to the pathways that are in place
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Well, I think we need to have a really good
look at it, you know, because it's not you know
that's we haven't seen results like this ever. But in
saying that, you know, the last few years haven't been
great and that's at school will ever. But also you know,
if you look at our in the twenties, you know,
it's been a long time between drinks, you know, with
us winning Winnything in in that age group as well.
(02:25):
So you know, I think we need to be looking
at their pathways. We need to be looking at high
performance and and you know, it's very easy to talk
about going back to the to the past, but I think,
you know, we need to be looking at at how
we can improve these results. And I think it's a
much bigger picture, you know. I think it's at grass roots,
(02:48):
that's where it starts, you know, and we just seem
to have lost cohesion amongst you know, between the grassroots,
the NPC Super rugby, in the national game. It's like,
you know, there's there's all these agendas, people of pulling
in different directions, and then you know, I think the
game's been hurt by that you.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Played for for the New Zealand schools. Was it a
simpler pathway then, or at least a more cohesive pathway
for players playing together more often? Then?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Well? What I do remember, you know, and look, you know,
I'm certing not about back in my day, but what
I do know is, you know, from from around that
under sixteen kind of age group. There was a high
performance program where you know, they would scour the country,
they'd bring in the best kids. You know, it would
spend time from under sixteen's right through to schools under
(03:39):
twenty ones with a big group, but the same group
of guys who got to play a lot of rugby together,
you know, whether it was New Zealand schools using under nineteens,
under seventeens and then through under twenty ones and then
you know guys going into MPC back in those days
international rugby. So so you know, from an early age,
(04:02):
I guess you know, you were getting used to that,
those kind of those situations and getting combinations going that
that actually saw us through you know, play a lot
of rugby together. You know, we we've gone away from
that and even at that grassroots level. You know, like
I kind of half on a little bit about tournaments
like rolling mills, which was so important back in the day.
(04:25):
I mean, I didn't you know what my primary school days.
You know, it wasn't really about being an all back.
All I even wanted to be was a wakad a
ranger playing playing rolling mills. You know, my heroes were
the guys that were playing rolling mills. That's all gone.
And you know, apart from you know, tournaments like the
(04:48):
Rashield down the down in the Hawk's Bay, you know,
the RIPS center of stuff for for kids, you know,
for you know, look, I know there's there's all sorts
of reasons why. You know, people think it's a good
idea to take repersent for rugby away at age group level.
But I you know, I just don't agree. I think
it's really important and I think since you know, we've
(05:08):
been going down that track, you know, we haven't been
seeing great results.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Do you think those checkpoints are important? Having them at
under sixteen and then you know through through high school
to get people on the right track and targeting them
early and figuring out who the next players are in
five years, ten years time is well.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I think every other sport does it, you know. I mean,
the regular league guys are targeting kids around you know
that kind of thirteen fourteen. I'm not saying they're giving
them contracts, but they know exactly who they are, you know,
and they're bringing them into high performance type environments, you know,
to you know, whether they're like running training camps during
the school holidays or you know, you know, football have
(05:47):
been doing it for years. You know why are we
Because I think that's it's an important area and we
need to be kind of working out who these kids
are and you know, kind of giving them the opportunity
to kind of flourish. And you know, I mean there
(06:07):
will be arguments that it's too young, and but look,
you know what we're doing at the moment isn't working.
So you know, all I'm suggesting is, you know, we
need to have a really good look at what is
going to work because I think the game's kind of
flounder if we don't. You know, Rugby league is just
going you know, bananas at the moment. And I you know,
we see that with with with my job at Wasserman,
(06:30):
you know, as a as a sports agent, and you know,
these kids are seeing the NRL and you know, the
the all the excitement that that that brings. And you know,
if Rugby want to compete, well, you know they need
to look at what they're doing, because I don't think
it's the competing at the moment.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Do you think there's too many pathways or too much
confusion about where it lies? Because in New Zealand there's
the strong secondary school system and playing for your first
fifteen there's the NPCs and fourteen unions. There you've got
the five you know, Super rugby sides plus Mowana and
then you've got New Zealand rugby on top of it.
Is it actually, you know, in Australia it's you know, Queensland,
New South Wales by and large dominated that Australian under
(07:12):
eighteen team. Is there too many pathways in New Zealand?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, I think it's just it does need to be simplified.
But you know, I guess the trouble when you look
at that and you know you've just named you know,
these s different pathways there, and I guess everyone's got
their own agendas to a degree too, you know, like
you know, and and they're all important. I just think,
you know, we need to look at, you know what,
what in the past has kind of created this rugby environment,
(07:38):
this nursery that that produced the type of teams that
we've been lucky enough to have over the you know,
the last one hundreds of the year whatever. But but
but you know, we've gone away from whatever we were doing,
We've gone away from it and we need to kind
of get back to it. And look, it's a it's
a different world, understand all that. But I think, you know,
if we do want rugby to to flourish in this country, well,
(07:59):
you know, changes need to be made and it's it's
not it's not as easy as just kind of going
back to how it was, because you know, that's you know,
we are living in the world. But what what what
are the what all were the good things that made
us you know, this this great rugby nation and and
what do we need to do to kind of bring
it back?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Craig and this with us on news talk be just
a couple of final questions. Craig, you mentioned in your
piece in the Herald everybody wants to be Reese Walsh.
That's what the kids are seeing at the moment. You
know leagues obviously, and you played league yourself as well,
obviously doing a very very good job of packing off
some of these players. You are the right, I guess
role models in place for it, for these junctures coming
(08:40):
through the rugby system.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, I think I think that you know, we yeah
for sure, I mean, you know, the games full of
you know what we don't do. I guess to celebrate
our our our rockstar rugby players as well as they
do over there, you know. And I guess you know,
if you look at the n r L, they have
their villains, they have their heroes. You know, it's all
it's all just a big part of the of the
(09:05):
of the bigger pitch that that that that the inner
l is. And you know, rugby, I think, you know,
we're a little bit more conservative and we don't really
kind of celebrate those those those guys and and uh
and you know, I think for sure it's something that
we could do better.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And as you said, you're a player agent with Wasserman,
you know, the talents still there coming through. It's not
the talents dried up. That there is still talent coming
through the game. You know, through the younger greats.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
There's definitely talent coming through. I mean, there's there's plenty
of rugby rat players at the moment. But but you know,
we know, you know, if we're looking at the numbers
and people will know better, Deny, I guess, you know,
through the regions, you know, there's definitely been a decline, right,
It's it's how we kind of get get rugby back
into the into the communities and get the kids wanting
(09:57):
to play the game again. And you know, it's it's
none of that feasy given that you know, in this
in this in this age of of iPads and everything else,
but you know, it's certainly been a big part of
our culture in this country and certainly worth preserving.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldegrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well. Massive issues. That's how Craig, in his former All
Black form of the Rugby League Player and the Arl
Days and now a rugby player agent with Wassaman Sports,
has described the New Zealand rugby pathway system on the
back of the two big losses for the New Zealand
secondary school side one hundred and thirty six points they
conceded in two games against the Australian Under eighteens a
(00:33):
couple of weeks ago. Craig incidentally was actually over in
Canberra to watch some of the action when they got belted,
and said in the interview with New Zealand he all
today massive issues in the game and things that certainly
need to be fixed because we're going to look in
five and six years time back potentially at these results.
Craig joins us now to elaborate on exactly what those
(00:54):
issues are. Craig, thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thanks mus being.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, what was your reaction watching those defeats unfold over
the last couple of weeks, Pretty heavy defeats for the
New Zealand schoolboys.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, yeah, I guess, like everyone, you know, surprised that
that you know, any New Zealand team rugby team would
have would have those types of results, and and and
and and certainly you know that New Zealand Schools team
as a prestigious team. You know, it's made up of
(01:30):
of of all of his talent. You know that we
we feel here in New Zealand should be able to
mix it with anyone in the world. And so yeah,
so it was, it was. It was pretty tough watching,
to be honest, especially knowing that you know a lot
of these these kids are a bloody good footballers, He's
no doubt about that. But I guess my concern is
the bigger picture and and and actually you know we're
(01:52):
the gamers at the moment. And why you know we've
seen results on this.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Do you think a lot of it or all of
it is down to the pathways that are in place
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Well, I think we need to have a really good
look at it, you know, because it's not you know
that's we haven't seen results like this ever. But in
saying that, you know, the last few years haven't been
great and that's at school will ever. But also you know,
if you look at our in the twenties, you know,
it's been a long time between drinks, you know, with
us winning Winnything in in that age group as well.
(02:25):
So you know, I think we need to be looking
at their pathways. We need to be looking at high
performance and and you know, it's very easy to talk
about going back to the to the past, but I think,
you know, we need to be looking at at how
we can improve these results. And I think it's a
much bigger picture, you know. I think it's at grass roots,
(02:48):
that's where it starts, you know, and we just seem
to have lost cohesion amongst you know, between the grassroots,
the NPC Super rugby, in the national game. It's like,
you know, there's there's all these agendas, people of pulling
in different directions, and then you know, I think the
game's been hurt by that you.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Played for for the New Zealand schools. Was it a
simpler pathway then, or at least a more cohesive pathway
for players playing together more often? Then?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Well? What I do remember, you know, and look, you know,
I'm certing not about back in my day, but what
I do know is, you know, from from around that
under sixteen kind of age group. There was a high
performance program where you know, they would scour the country,
they'd bring in the best kids. You know, it would
spend time from under sixteen's right through to schools under
(03:39):
twenty ones with a big group, but the same group
of guys who got to play a lot of rugby together,
you know, whether it was New Zealand schools using under nineteens,
under seventeens and then through under twenty ones and then
you know guys going into MPC back in those days
international rugby. So so you know, from an early age,
(04:02):
I guess you know, you were getting used to that,
those kind of those situations and getting combinations going that
that actually saw us through you know, play a lot
of rugby together. You know, we we've gone away from
that and even at that grassroots level. You know, like
I kind of half on a little bit about tournaments
like rolling mills, which was so important back in the day.
(04:25):
I mean, I didn't you know what my primary school days.
You know, it wasn't really about being an all back.
All I even wanted to be was a wakad a
ranger playing playing rolling mills. You know, my heroes were
the guys that were playing rolling mills. That's all gone.
And you know, apart from you know, tournaments like the
(04:48):
Rashield down the down in the Hawk's Bay, you know,
the RIPS center of stuff for for kids, you know,
for you know, look, I know there's there's all sorts
of reasons why. You know, people think it's a good
idea to take repersent for rugby away at age group level.
But I you know, I just don't agree. I think
it's really important and I think since you know, we've
(05:08):
been going down that track, you know, we haven't been
seeing great results.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Do you think those checkpoints are important? Having them at
under sixteen and then you know through through high school
to get people on the right track and targeting them
early and figuring out who the next players are in
five years, ten years time is well.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I think every other sport does it, you know. I mean,
the regular league guys are targeting kids around you know
that kind of thirteen fourteen. I'm not saying they're giving
them contracts, but they know exactly who they are, you know,
and they're bringing them into high performance type environments, you know,
to you know, whether they're like running training camps during
the school holidays or you know, you know, football have
(05:47):
been doing it for years. You know why are we
Because I think that's it's an important area and we
need to be kind of working out who these kids
are and you know, kind of giving them the opportunity
to kind of flourish. And you know, I mean there
(06:07):
will be arguments that it's too young, and but look,
you know what we're doing at the moment isn't working.
So you know, all I'm suggesting is, you know, we
need to have a really good look at what is
going to work because I think the game's kind of
flounder if we don't. You know, Rugby league is just
going you know, bananas at the moment. And I you know,
we see that with with with my job at Wasserman,
(06:30):
you know, as a as a sports agent, and you know,
these kids are seeing the NRL and you know, the
the all the excitement that that that brings. And you know,
if Rugby want to compete, well, you know they need
to look at what they're doing, because I don't think
it's the competing at the moment.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Do you think there's too many pathways or too much
confusion about where it lies? Because in New Zealand there's
the strong secondary school system and playing for your first
fifteen there's the NPCs and fourteen unions. There you've got
the five you know, Super rugby sides plus Mowana and
then you've got New Zealand rugby on top of it.
Is it actually, you know, in Australia it's you know, Queensland,
New South Wales by and large dominated that Australian under
(07:12):
eighteen team. Is there too many pathways in New Zealand?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, I think it's just it does need to be simplified.
But you know, I guess the trouble when you look
at that and you know you've just named you know,
these s different pathways there, and I guess everyone's got
their own agendas to a degree too, you know, like
you know, and and they're all important. I just think,
you know, we need to look at, you know what,
what in the past has kind of created this rugby environment,
(07:38):
this nursery that that produced the type of teams that
we've been lucky enough to have over the you know,
the last one hundreds of the year whatever. But but
but you know, we've gone away from whatever we were doing,
We've gone away from it and we need to kind
of get back to it. And look, it's a it's
a different world, understand all that. But I think, you know,
if we do want rugby to to flourish in this country, well,
(07:59):
you know, changes need to be made and it's it's
not it's not as easy as just kind of going
back to how it was, because you know, that's you know,
we are living in the world. But what what what
are the what all were the good things that made
us you know, this this great rugby nation and and
what do we need to do to kind of bring
it back?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Craig and this with us on news talk be just
a couple of final questions. Craig, you mentioned in your
piece in the Herald everybody wants to be Reese Walsh.
That's what the kids are seeing at the moment. You
know leagues obviously, and you played league yourself as well,
obviously doing a very very good job of packing off
some of these players. You are the right, I guess
role models in place for it, for these junctures coming
(08:40):
through the rugby system.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, I think I think that you know, we yeah
for sure, I mean, you know, the games full of
you know what we don't do. I guess to celebrate
our our our rockstar rugby players as well as they
do over there, you know. And I guess you know,
if you look at the n r L, they have
their villains, they have their heroes. You know, it's all
it's all just a big part of the of the
(09:05):
of the bigger pitch that that that that the inner
l is. And you know, rugby, I think, you know,
we're a little bit more conservative and we don't really
kind of celebrate those those those guys and and uh
and you know, I think for sure it's something that
we could do better.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And as you said, you're a player agent with Wasserman,
you know, the talents still there coming through. It's not
the talents dried up. That there is still talent coming
through the game. You know, through the younger greats.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
There's definitely talent coming through. I mean, there's there's plenty
of rugby rat players at the moment. But but you know,
we know, you know, if we're looking at the numbers
and people will know better, Deny, I guess, you know,
through the regions, you know, there's definitely been a decline, right,
It's it's how we kind of get get rugby back
into the into the communities and get the kids wanting
(09:57):
to play the game again. And you know, it's it's
none of that feasy given that you know, in this
in this in this age of of iPads and everything else,
but you know, it's certainly been a big part of
our culture in this country and certainly worth preserving.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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