December 15, 2025 • 12 mins
The Wellington Phoenix are under extra scrutiny following their latest defeat.
The Phoenix are second to last on the men's A-League ladder after a humbling 3-1 home loss to the Newcastle Jets.
Former All White David Chote joined Piney to discuss further.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB. No need for the TMO, We've
got the breakdown on sports Talk call o news Talk,
said B.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
The Wellington Phoenix have dropped a second bottom on the
A League Football Ladder after a three to one home
defeat to previously bottom placed Newcastle Jets Taylor. Acuino trying
to land another one on.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
The time that's it again.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Goodness me, the Newcastle Jets on fire and Wellington he's
being provider for the first two Clayton Taylor here the
next conceding three goals in the space of seven second
half minutes to slump to a fourth defeat in the
last five games, heaping even more pressure on head coach
gian Carlo Italiano. Former All White and longtime football analyst
(00:59):
Phoenix observer since the club came into being in two
thousand and seven. David Choate is with us Tody before
we zoom out and look at the bigger picture here,
what was your overall summary of what played out in
yesterday's game?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Calamitous defending, just really soft. They looked so light. It
was a disappointing watch for the Phoenix fans, and I
didn't see sort of any real signs of life. They
got back a goal, but then never really pushed on.
I thought it was a low point. I think in
(01:36):
the long history of the Phoenix I think it's been
a really poor run.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What sorts of conversations then, would you expect to be
going on at Phoenix HQ right now, Not necessarily coach
to players, but higher up and the sort of in
the officers of Phoenix HQ.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, they must be looking at their recruitment because if
I'm brutally honest, I'm not sure they've got that right.
They just don't seem to have the cattle. They don't
seem to have the class across the park. There's sort
of one or two players with a little bit of pettier,
but the rest of them are really light on experience.
So I think they should be asking questions of themselves
(02:14):
before they ask questions of the coaches, because I think
the coach can only work with the talent that they've got,
and I'm not sure how much import the coach has
into the players that were brought in or have been
brought in over the last sort of twelve to twenty
four months. But they really have got that so sort
of sadly wrong. I think at the moment.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I want to get to the pressure on the
coach in a minute, But you're right, you can change
the coach, But does that make the players any better?
It doesn't change the playing group, does it. It doesn't. If
the coach goes, it doesn't automatically make those players better players,
does it?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
No, it doesn't. And they've got some Mitigan seven. They
they've got some injuries and of having to draft and
players with limited experience, so they're all the excuses out
of the way. But I think you've got to build
a squad for a season that's going to have injuries.
You're always going to run into that kind of issue.
So to me, it's about grabbing almost you know, just
a core of the side who you know are up
(03:04):
to the level, because I'm not sure that many of
them have been proven. They're being sort of tried and tested,
but you don't test them in the middle of the season,
in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So what are we talking about, Athan Chardy? Are we
talking about the need for a major recruitment drive and
one of those famous football phrases, a bit of a
clean out in the playing group.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Would have thought that that has to be the chatter
behind the scenes. You look at the playing group they've got,
they're not aging, they're a youngest squad, but they've got
very light on experience in terms of vaileage, although they're
all getting games now. So I suppose that's building experience,
But is it the right kind of experience you want
to me? The good sides have what I'll call is
(03:44):
sort of some hardened journeyman. Wouldn't be a bad description,
Just guys who have played at that level and know
how to win games of football, because it's hard to
see where the light comes from in the current playing group.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, let's get to the coach, gian Callowertaliano. I'm not
sure he was a universally agreed upon decision to have
a reappointed, certainly not among the fans anyway. I'm not
sure that there was universal agreement on him being given
an extension after a pretty poor season last year. Eight
games into this new season, Chardy, how much pressure will
(04:18):
be building on gian Carlo Italiano?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, he must be feeling it, and I think the
reappointment of gian Carlo Italiano was an interesting decision wasn't it.
He had a good first season with a side that
had some real talent in it. I thought then he
picked up a side with the less talent and sort
of took them nowhere. I think there's been some improvement
(04:42):
this year, pintly. I think they are playing with a
little more intense sort of almost not sitting back and
waiting to be beaten. So I think they are trying
to get on the front foot. But Italiano, a bit
like the players, is not a hardened coach. He's not
a coach with a wealth of experience, so I think
he must be feeling it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You hear about coaches losing the dressing room, and I
know you've been in a lot of dressing rooms where
coaches have had the dressing room. You might have been
in dressing rooms where the coaches has lost the playing group.
Is that obvious to feel as a player that the
coaches instructions, tactics just aren't resonating anymore.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, you know it as a player. I think, especially
the sort of more senior players who I mentioned the
so light on the round. But you think about Alex
Rufer as an example. Tim Payne would be another if
he'd been playing at the moment, but he'll know what's
going on behind the scenes, and the players know when
when you sort of just cut yourself addressed from the plan.
(05:43):
The other thing I would say is there's real lack
of sort of, in my opinion, leadership on the park,
barring Ruther, at the moment you sort of look around
at who's going to be doing the talking for them
that they seem a very quiet side. So I don't know.
I don't know if he's lost the dressing room, but
I think the players are looking for answers as much
as Pats Giancarlo. It's Alianois.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, you're right about the lieutenants, and we know Tim
Payne with a lot term injury, so that's taken another
very senior player out. And I'm not sure you're right.
I'm sure that you're right. There's not those those loud
enough voices elsewhere apart from from Rufer. Can we talk
about a tactic which has been very controversial, and that's
the Phoenix's defensive high line And again yesterday, certainly the
(06:25):
second goal came as a result of perhaps the line
being too high in a lack of cohesion. Is it time? Look,
I admire someone being all in on a strategy. But
is it time to be a bit pragmatic now with
regards to that particular strategy.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Six goals in two games, and you're right, two of
the goals came from, you know, further back in the
park where they're able to break the lines. Although I
looked those goals and on both occasions they got three
and four players back into the defensive box, but they're
at sixes and seven. There's no shape to the back
for if you know what I mean. There's people chasing
the ball, watching the ball and leaving runners free, but
(07:02):
there's no structure once they were broken that So I
think there is a time when you say, well, actually
we've got to tighten up defensively. Any side that's sitting
where they're sitting has to get the first thing right,
and that's defensively. And at the moment, I think you're
taking an approach that offense is the best sort of
form of defense. But maybe, and just maybe it is
(07:22):
time to look at Although in the press conference, I
think John Muca and Taliana or Cheap as we know him,
was asked and he didn't seem too keen on changing
his ways. I think pragmatism is the right word, Pinty.
There would come a time when you just got to
play at the resources that you've got.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
At the other end, Chody, what are you seeing in
the attacking thirty? You know, on occasion they look very good,
don't they. They've they're putting together moves. I think at
the game against Adelaide a couple of weeks ago, and
for the first thirty five minutes they were terrific in
that game. What are you seeing in the attacking third?
What do you need to see more of consistently?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Well, that's the area that's probably got the only sort
of shining sort of lights. In reality, they are scoring
a few goals, a few more than they have in
the past. Is a very busy up top, and he
can score a goal, as he showed again, he's all
over the park and putting a lot of energy in
in places where perhaps you wouldn't want your striking to
(08:15):
be putting the energy in that is chasing players around
the park. I think they can play good football. They're
one touch drugle going forward. There was keeping a couple
of moves on the weekend. I thought a fair score
line yesterday might have been six three or something like that,
which is a ridiculous score line to football. But they
probably created three good chances and through good football as well,
(08:35):
so they are capable of playing. But they just to
me that it's the three or four season players that
others can build around that they're really missing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Indeed, yeah, that's a tennis score, isn't it? Six three?
And the fans. Football is nothing without its fans. How
worrying is it that the fans are now starting to
vote with their feet? Only three thousand these today, Tody.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, that's exactly the issue that you've got for me.
You earn your fans and you earn the right to
have people fill the stands, and at the moment, I'm
not sure they're doing that. It appears with the arrival
of Auburn City of sorry aukan f CEA that the
ship north for the flag bearers of football has really
(09:19):
hurt the Phoenix. I think they've probably taken the neutral
fan and even in Wellingston, I think there's a few
people staying away because just the quality isn't there to watch.
So I think they've got to earn their way back
into sort of that. I've always thought six to ten
thousand is the Phoenix crowd. So they've got to earn
their way back to that kind of number, and you
only do that by winning football games.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, and that's the hard thing too, isn't it. You
know before before Auckland and FC came along, if the
Phoenix had a bad season, it's like the Phoenix have
had a bad season. You now have a contrast on
the side of the Tasman with Auckland FC seemingly having
no problem at all picking up wins pretty much every week. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well, I think if you look to the North and
Wellingtonians won't like doing it. But if you look to
the North, there's a model there of a side that
is absolutely bullying the league because they are physically just
as strong as any side in the league, with a
little bit of flare in the likes of Guelagany's name
(10:16):
on my and Jesse Ramble up top of the real speed.
They've added a big lump of the center Ford and
Sam cons growth and they'll score enough goals to win games.
It may not be who everyone's liking, but they are
the model that wins more than they lose in the
A League.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
All right. So as the Phoenix contemplate another home game
on Sunday against a team you know in and around
the bottom of the table. I mean, what would you
be doing as a player, what would you be doing
if you were part of the coaching group at Wellington
Phoenix this week to buy hooker by Croc just win
this game on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Well, I'm not sure what the situation is with their injuries.
You'd be praying that you're getting someone back or adding
to the squad, because I think they do need a
little more physical presence, so they'll have to work on
sort of manning up. In saying that the debuts and
center back Smith, I thought, oh, that times a good
physicality in saying that, having played so few games, it's
(11:15):
hard to sort of rely on that kind of player
to be your anchor if you like. So if they
can get some players back, well that'll make a difference
to them. They've got to me keep the ball for
longer periods. I'm not so convinced that the high line
is the only way to sort of pressure aside, could
they play a little more on the counter? Is a
seems to be busy up top. I know they struggle
(11:38):
for real pace. Perhaps on the flanks, but I'd be
looking to sit a bit deeper, I think, and try
and soak up a bit of Pressure've got to understand
they're not going to be a decide that's going to
go and rip any team apart. They're going to probably
have to sit back out of possession and have some
real structure. So that's what I'd be thinking about.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Always love chatting football with your charity. Let's hope for
an upswing in the Phoenix fortunes. Thanks for your analysis tonight,
you no problem.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
That's hope for a happier Christmas for the Pene expans
and hopefully they'll come back in some numbers over to
Christmas break.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Let's hope, so Chardy, Thanks indeed. David Choate, former All
White and very astute football analyst and commentator. He's been
watching this team as assay since it started in two
thousand and seven.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB. No need for the TMO, We've
got the breakdown on sports Talk call o news Talk,
said B.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
The Wellington Phoenix have dropped a second bottom on the
A League Football Ladder after a three to one home
defeat to previously bottom placed Newcastle Jets Taylor. Acuino trying
to land another one on.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
The time that's it again.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Goodness me, the Newcastle Jets on fire and Wellington he's
being provider for the first two Clayton Taylor here the
next conceding three goals in the space of seven second
half minutes to slump to a fourth defeat in the
last five games, heaping even more pressure on head coach
gian Carlo Italiano. Former All White and longtime football analyst
(00:59):
Phoenix observer since the club came into being in two
thousand and seven. David Choate is with us Tody before
we zoom out and look at the bigger picture here,
what was your overall summary of what played out in
yesterday's game?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Calamitous defending, just really soft. They looked so light. It
was a disappointing watch for the Phoenix fans, and I
didn't see sort of any real signs of life. They
got back a goal, but then never really pushed on.
I thought it was a low point. I think in
(01:36):
the long history of the Phoenix I think it's been
a really poor run.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What sorts of conversations then, would you expect to be
going on at Phoenix HQ right now, Not necessarily coach
to players, but higher up and the sort of in
the officers of Phoenix HQ.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, they must be looking at their recruitment because if
I'm brutally honest, I'm not sure they've got that right.
They just don't seem to have the cattle. They don't
seem to have the class across the park. There's sort
of one or two players with a little bit of pettier,
but the rest of them are really light on experience.
So I think they should be asking questions of themselves
(02:14):
before they ask questions of the coaches, because I think
the coach can only work with the talent that they've got,
and I'm not sure how much import the coach has
into the players that were brought in or have been
brought in over the last sort of twelve to twenty
four months. But they really have got that so sort
of sadly wrong. I think at the moment.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I want to get to the pressure on the
coach in a minute, But you're right, you can change
the coach, But does that make the players any better?
It doesn't change the playing group, does it. It doesn't. If
the coach goes, it doesn't automatically make those players better players,
does it?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
No, it doesn't. And they've got some Mitigan seven. They
they've got some injuries and of having to draft and
players with limited experience, so they're all the excuses out
of the way. But I think you've got to build
a squad for a season that's going to have injuries.
You're always going to run into that kind of issue.
So to me, it's about grabbing almost you know, just
a core of the side who you know are up
(03:04):
to the level, because I'm not sure that many of
them have been proven. They're being sort of tried and tested,
but you don't test them in the middle of the season,
in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So what are we talking about, Athan Chardy? Are we
talking about the need for a major recruitment drive and
one of those famous football phrases, a bit of a
clean out in the playing group.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Would have thought that that has to be the chatter
behind the scenes. You look at the playing group they've got,
they're not aging, they're a youngest squad, but they've got
very light on experience in terms of vaileage, although they're
all getting games now. So I suppose that's building experience,
But is it the right kind of experience you want
to me? The good sides have what I'll call is
(03:44):
sort of some hardened journeyman. Wouldn't be a bad description,
Just guys who have played at that level and know
how to win games of football, because it's hard to
see where the light comes from in the current playing group.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, let's get to the coach, gian Callowertaliano. I'm not
sure he was a universally agreed upon decision to have
a reappointed, certainly not among the fans anyway. I'm not
sure that there was universal agreement on him being given
an extension after a pretty poor season last year. Eight
games into this new season, Chardy, how much pressure will
(04:18):
be building on gian Carlo Italiano?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, he must be feeling it, and I think the
reappointment of gian Carlo Italiano was an interesting decision wasn't it.
He had a good first season with a side that
had some real talent in it. I thought then he
picked up a side with the less talent and sort
of took them nowhere. I think there's been some improvement
(04:42):
this year, pintly. I think they are playing with a
little more intense sort of almost not sitting back and
waiting to be beaten. So I think they are trying
to get on the front foot. But Italiano, a bit
like the players, is not a hardened coach. He's not
a coach with a wealth of experience, so I think
he must be feeling it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You hear about coaches losing the dressing room, and I
know you've been in a lot of dressing rooms where
coaches have had the dressing room. You might have been
in dressing rooms where the coaches has lost the playing group.
Is that obvious to feel as a player that the
coaches instructions, tactics just aren't resonating anymore.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, you know it as a player. I think, especially
the sort of more senior players who I mentioned the
so light on the round. But you think about Alex
Rufer as an example. Tim Payne would be another if
he'd been playing at the moment, but he'll know what's
going on behind the scenes, and the players know when
when you sort of just cut yourself addressed from the plan.
(05:43):
The other thing I would say is there's real lack
of sort of, in my opinion, leadership on the park,
barring Ruther, at the moment you sort of look around
at who's going to be doing the talking for them
that they seem a very quiet side. So I don't know.
I don't know if he's lost the dressing room, but
I think the players are looking for answers as much
as Pats Giancarlo. It's Alianois.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, you're right about the lieutenants, and we know Tim
Payne with a lot term injury, so that's taken another
very senior player out. And I'm not sure you're right.
I'm sure that you're right. There's not those those loud
enough voices elsewhere apart from from Rufer. Can we talk
about a tactic which has been very controversial, and that's
the Phoenix's defensive high line And again yesterday, certainly the
(06:25):
second goal came as a result of perhaps the line
being too high in a lack of cohesion. Is it time? Look,
I admire someone being all in on a strategy. But
is it time to be a bit pragmatic now with
regards to that particular strategy.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Six goals in two games, and you're right, two of
the goals came from, you know, further back in the
park where they're able to break the lines. Although I
looked those goals and on both occasions they got three
and four players back into the defensive box, but they're
at sixes and seven. There's no shape to the back
for if you know what I mean. There's people chasing
the ball, watching the ball and leaving runners free, but
(07:02):
there's no structure once they were broken that So I
think there is a time when you say, well, actually
we've got to tighten up defensively. Any side that's sitting
where they're sitting has to get the first thing right,
and that's defensively. And at the moment, I think you're
taking an approach that offense is the best sort of
form of defense. But maybe, and just maybe it is
(07:22):
time to look at Although in the press conference, I
think John Muca and Taliana or Cheap as we know him,
was asked and he didn't seem too keen on changing
his ways. I think pragmatism is the right word, Pinty.
There would come a time when you just got to
play at the resources that you've got.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
At the other end, Chody, what are you seeing in
the attacking thirty? You know, on occasion they look very good,
don't they. They've they're putting together moves. I think at
the game against Adelaide a couple of weeks ago, and
for the first thirty five minutes they were terrific in
that game. What are you seeing in the attacking third?
What do you need to see more of consistently?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Well, that's the area that's probably got the only sort
of shining sort of lights. In reality, they are scoring
a few goals, a few more than they have in
the past. Is a very busy up top, and he
can score a goal, as he showed again, he's all
over the park and putting a lot of energy in
in places where perhaps you wouldn't want your striking to
(08:15):
be putting the energy in that is chasing players around
the park. I think they can play good football. They're
one touch drugle going forward. There was keeping a couple
of moves on the weekend. I thought a fair score
line yesterday might have been six three or something like that,
which is a ridiculous score line to football. But they
probably created three good chances and through good football as well,
(08:35):
so they are capable of playing. But they just to
me that it's the three or four season players that
others can build around that they're really missing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Indeed, yeah, that's a tennis score, isn't it? Six three?
And the fans. Football is nothing without its fans. How
worrying is it that the fans are now starting to
vote with their feet? Only three thousand these today, Tody.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, that's exactly the issue that you've got for me.
You earn your fans and you earn the right to
have people fill the stands, and at the moment, I'm
not sure they're doing that. It appears with the arrival
of Auburn City of sorry aukan f CEA that the
ship north for the flag bearers of football has really
(09:19):
hurt the Phoenix. I think they've probably taken the neutral
fan and even in Wellingston, I think there's a few
people staying away because just the quality isn't there to watch.
So I think they've got to earn their way back
into sort of that. I've always thought six to ten
thousand is the Phoenix crowd. So they've got to earn
their way back to that kind of number, and you
only do that by winning football games.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, and that's the hard thing too, isn't it. You
know before before Auckland and FC came along, if the
Phoenix had a bad season, it's like the Phoenix have
had a bad season. You now have a contrast on
the side of the Tasman with Auckland FC seemingly having
no problem at all picking up wins pretty much every week. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well, I think if you look to the North and
Wellingtonians won't like doing it. But if you look to
the North, there's a model there of a side that
is absolutely bullying the league because they are physically just
as strong as any side in the league, with a
little bit of flare in the likes of Guelagany's name
(10:16):
on my and Jesse Ramble up top of the real speed.
They've added a big lump of the center Ford and
Sam cons growth and they'll score enough goals to win games.
It may not be who everyone's liking, but they are
the model that wins more than they lose in the
A League.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
All right. So as the Phoenix contemplate another home game
on Sunday against a team you know in and around
the bottom of the table. I mean, what would you
be doing as a player, what would you be doing
if you were part of the coaching group at Wellington
Phoenix this week to buy hooker by Croc just win
this game on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Well, I'm not sure what the situation is with their injuries.
You'd be praying that you're getting someone back or adding
to the squad, because I think they do need a
little more physical presence, so they'll have to work on
sort of manning up. In saying that the debuts and
center back Smith, I thought, oh, that times a good
physicality in saying that, having played so few games, it's
(11:15):
hard to sort of rely on that kind of player
to be your anchor if you like. So if they
can get some players back, well that'll make a difference
to them. They've got to me keep the ball for
longer periods. I'm not so convinced that the high line
is the only way to sort of pressure aside, could
they play a little more on the counter? Is a
seems to be busy up top. I know they struggle
(11:38):
for real pace. Perhaps on the flanks, but I'd be
looking to sit a bit deeper, I think, and try
and soak up a bit of Pressure've got to understand
they're not going to be a decide that's going to
go and rip any team apart. They're going to probably
have to sit back out of possession and have some
real structure. So that's what I'd be thinking about.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Always love chatting football with your charity. Let's hope for
an upswing in the Phoenix fortunes. Thanks for your analysis tonight,
you no problem.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
That's hope for a happier Christmas for the Pene expans
and hopefully they'll come back in some numbers over to
Christmas break.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Let's hope, so Chardy, Thanks indeed. David Choate, former All
White and very astute football analyst and commentator. He's been
watching this team as assay since it started in two
thousand and seven.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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