March 12, 2025 • 41 mins
D'Arcy Waldegrave returned to wrap another day of sports news! Highlights for tonight include:
Mike Hester - NZR Participation and Development Manager
Patrick McKendry - 1News Rugby Writer
Judd Flavell - Tall Blacks Head Coach
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Waldegrave
from News Talk SED Be.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Good evening, Welcome in to sports Talk seven after seven
it is. It's a Wednesday evening, March twelve, twenty twenty
five on Darcy Walter Grave. From here through until eight
o'clock tonight, we have a number of guests, starting off
with Mike Hester. He's on rugby Participation Development Manager. Are
(00:52):
talking about the reduction in size of rugby teams in
high school. What they are hoping to achieve, how long
it will take to achieve that, what the feedback has
been so far. We go also to Patrick McKendree, one
news rugby writer and coach, as well at a lower level,
(01:14):
around the effect that these changes, these proposed changes will
have on the game. Towards the end of the show,
we'll talk about the sales at NBL. Jud Flaffl joins
us Tour Black's coach. Of course, he was the coach
of the Cabory Rams who won back to back titles,
and now he is actually involved with the Rams, not
(01:35):
at a coaching level, but at a development level for them.
We'll talk to him about that the sales NBL, what
he sees in that to boot that is all coming up.
Your calls on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty always
room for them and he can text nine two nine
to two that is z B z B. A standard
charge though will apply. And talking about Sales nb L,
(01:57):
the rather depleted Indian entry, the Panthers are on court
up against the Hawks of the Sales NBL gets underway
and keep up today the scores in that as well.
But before any of us, how about a bit of
this sport today and sports today Tyrrel Lomax and are
back for the Canes. Head coach Clark laid Law is
(02:19):
keeping enthusiasm though at a sensible level around the abrasive hooker.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
We can't get too excited or train shot cut. What
the next two or three weeks look like. Yeah, he's
bucking the squad. He still got a lot of what
to do. He's still got a pleaar rugby. But the
expectations that he builds his season properly, and you know,
we hope and we expect them to pley really well.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
As mentioned, Sal's NBA gets going this evening, but not
in the state all I'd hoped for the introduction of
the South Auckland based Indian Panthers has been as shambles.
Eight players won't step out on the court against the
Hawks to night jude A, visa problems, nasal representation, dramas
and army. The chair of the Hawks board, Sally Crown,
(03:01):
hides to disappointment, Well, we've.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Got a lot of time and effect and two welcoming
then that it was a really awesome experience.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
The Panthers roster has been propped up with well, I
don't know. I'm not sure. Black Caps one Day International
skip out Mitch Flatline Santa has played up to his
nickname expertly when asked about the future of the one
day International format.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
I think that's a massive thing going forward. I think
with the amount of cricket that's that's on all around
the world, you know, trying to fit all three formats
in might be a challenge. I think there is still
a place for a rodio cricket. As you know, we
saw another great.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Sort of it. It's level headed, I tell you, and
the hard to liken even harder to trust. Debt fleeing
oil baron mister Jim Ratcliffe has pompously stated his case
for a brand new four point five billion dollar stadium
in Manchester. With his pants on fire, he said.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
This, the North of England deserves to have a stadium
England can play football, that we can hold the Champions
League final and it should be a stadium that's befitting
of Manchester United's.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Stature stature fourteenth. And we're to the company's task with
building Gym's pipe dream. That makes sure he pays you
for your work first cash up front. I trust me,
it's the only thing you can do.
Speaker 7 (04:28):
And that Scot today.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Eleven minutes after seven, and let's talk about rugby now
at a lower level where the proposal is to reduce
the playing numbers at a lower level and full sized
teams of rugby a fifteen a side won't start and
tell year ten, year nine, year ten much later in
(04:52):
the piece. And we're going to talk to that now
with Mike Hester and he's on Rugby Participation Development Manager
about this concept and others are helping to promote the
game and keep the game alive at those lower levels.
It joins us now, my carest Good.
Speaker 8 (05:10):
Evening, mates, good evening, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, thanks for joining us. It's a very interesting story.
Another tweak, I suppose, and the way rugby is rolled
out specifically aimed at the youth, which of course is
the green shoots. Isn't it really of the sport? You've
got to look after that, So could you tell us
nice and simply what exactly this proposal is all this
(05:34):
rollout is going to be? What are we looking at?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, So just to set that up, we've been going
through a whole series of changes over the last five
years around our small Blacks development model, and so that's
where kids learn how to play the game, from when
they're very little right through to when they're sort of
ready to transition to the adult version of the game.
So over the last five years we've been steadily working
through a number of ages and stages. Principle behind those
changes is obviously to create more meaningful minutes for kids
(05:59):
playing the game and the way that we want them
to play, in the way they want to play, reducing
the sort of complexity in the structures where it's not
really necessary because really able to contest, and also making
sure the game design sort of seats suits their needs physically, mentally, cognitively,
et cetera. And so a lot of that's around principles
of smaller sided games for longer. So the changes that
being introduced over the last sort of four or five
(06:21):
years have been sort of under six through to under
eleven space. We've got one more change in the under
ten space which will just close that piece of work off,
which gets introduced next year. And what we're now starting
to turn our minds to is proposals around what would
happen around the under twelve to thirteen under fourteen space.
And so some of the thinking there is around, okay,
as kids are moving into those stages around physical maturation,
(06:43):
what's the right level of rugby that suits their needs,
engages them, helps them feel like they're progressing, but also
is appropriate for their age and stage.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
So what pushbacks are you expecting from what you've done
so far? Where is going to be the area where players, parents,
schools and the light go. We don't like this.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
People have a strong view of If it doesn't look
like fifteen out side rugby with full lineouts and scrums
and all the systems and structures that go with it,
it's not really rugby. But the reality is we've been
moving from a sort of game centric approach where we're
just trying to make players fit that kind of mode
of play to more participant centric approach where we're trying
to make sure the game fits the players. We know
(07:25):
that fifteen's is a really important part of the experience,
as is now sevens, but there's other ways that people
want to play, both in terms of how they learn,
but or also how they engage, so contact and non
contact formats become really important. So where we are expecting
pushback is just through the change of In some cases
kids are playing fifteen a side rugby now at eleven
(07:46):
and twelve years old, we're proposing that that be deferred
to later, probably in that thirteen or fourteen year old space,
and also not introducing to the same degree scrums and
lineouts with the same complexity, both in tyms of size
and in contest when the kids are not quite ready
to be profiled into those positions. We don't quite know
what they're going to look like them be through meturation,
(08:08):
but also because they're not able to safely contest them.
So we don't want to have an undue influence of
these system and structures when naturally we want to create
more minutes with playing open rugby unstructured play more autonomy
around making rugby decisions.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So it's about increasing enjoyment. It's about keeping kids playing
the game from when they start and encouraging parents, I
suppose as well to keep their children in the game.
The elephant in the room, he has got to be concussion,
doesn't it. Mike, How if you address that because a
number of parents so we don't want our children playing
(08:42):
this sport. It's dangerous. You mentioned some safety measures there,
but how does that work with the concussion debate.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We know that concussions in the junior space are actually
rarely low. We see concussion rates probably more of a
focus for us to address in the sort of teenage
and adult space. But that's not to say that we're
taking our off the ball in terms of safety.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
In terms of what's happening between the white lines.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Obviously, it has been a big focus on reducing tackle
height and so that continues to be a focus for us,
and we're seeing the benefits of that already globally in
terms of the impact of lowing tackle height and getting
heads out of the same airsplace. Some of these changes
that we're making in the junior framework are actually also
coach centric, and that we're trying to lighten a load
(09:28):
of bit for coaches about the curriculum they have to
deliver at each agent stage, so that can actionly focus
on a real critical view tackle height and successful ball
carry or confident ball carrier to of those things, whereas previously.
Speaker 8 (09:42):
When they've had to also deal with that.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
As well as scrums and mine outs and big numbers,
it means that the coachable moments around those critical safety
bits gets compromised, so that's also potentially a benefit. And
then more broadly, the more choices people have, the more
opportunity they have to choose kind of rugby that they
want to play in.
Speaker 8 (10:00):
So we know rip has been a really.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Successful, well loved part of our game under sixes and
under sevens, but that largely up until a few years
ago was sort of the end of the non contact
sort of opportunity for kids, whereas in more recent times
we've introduced at rugby and we're now part of the
sort of world Rugby Tea on Rugby troll roll out
across the world, and so we'll be releasing that over
(10:22):
the next year or so into in the zone system,
and that's a non contact variant chooses all of the
sort of moments and the game sense that we want
for kids. But it's a non contact variant, and so
we just have to help, you know, normalize, legitimize these
different ways of playing.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And engagement for children. And this is really important and
being touching on this as well. I know that when
I was a lot younger playing the game, didn't see
the ball a great deal and I just want to
get my hands on the ball, and I wanted to run.
The complexities around scrums and lineups and so on and
so forth it detracted from the game for me, But
(10:59):
I was like, what is all this? I just want
to play on my mates pass, kick, run. This is
a lot of what this is based on as well,
actually getting young people to enjoy the game in its
essence for what it actually is.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Absolutely, So we know that running with the ball in hand,
wind in your hear, going for the tryline really catches
the essence of what rugby is for a lot of kids.
So creating those sort of meaningful moments, those opportunities is
what we're trying to maximize. We know from other sports
that largely having control of the ball is power, and
so how do we create more opportunities for kids at
(11:33):
all levels. Now as we go that kids also want
to progress, so as we can introduce the complexity of
the game, scrum and line out systems and structures that
follow that, they will relish that, but only at the
right time.
Speaker 8 (11:44):
So again a big focus on how do we create.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
More meaningful moments or other things that they really enjoy,
And we know this from the work that we've done,
is that having minutes on the park, getting compliments from
the coach, getting to play all the positions, seeing their
mates play, these are the things that they really value
as opposed to perhaps some of the things that us
adults think that are really important for them, such as winning,
meeting famous players and getting getting what's a cat?
Speaker 8 (12:07):
So again, a lot of these changes.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Rooted in sort of deep research and experiences that we've
drawn from both here in New Zealand and across the world.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Into our participation development manager. Mike Hester, thanks very much
for your time here on news Talk ZBB. You have
a wonderful week.
Speaker 8 (12:22):
Thanks having on Darcy, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's nineteen minutes after seven Mike Hester, New Zealand Rugby
Participation Development Manager talking about these new proposals for the game,
which leads us on now to Patrick McKendree, colleague of mine,
one new digital rugby writer and a coach of the
game as well. He joins us to talk about this concept,
(12:48):
this idea. First question, Patrick, and welcome all these changes
from injured encourage parents to let their children play the game.
Speaker 10 (12:59):
That's a really good question. And so statistics show that
ten and eleven year old's are the the biggest group
in the game, the highest participants. After that there is
a relatively steep decline in terms of participation, and then
it plateaus after that. And when they're teenagers and older.
Will it keep them in the game. I'm not sure. Look,
(13:21):
I think everything, every effort in keeping kids in rugby
is a good idea from my point of view. But
in my experience that the biggest turnoff for kids and
parents is in those years just before they reach sort
of thirteen eleven, twelve thirteen, when boys in particular are
(13:44):
hitting puberty at different rates. Are the size differential that's
the biggest turnoff for kids, the potential for injury when
you're running against kids literally twice as big as you
and twice as heavy. That that's tough for a lot
of kids to handle.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Is there anything can be done about that? They just
so the maturation maturation rates of human beings, it's almost
impossible to put in anything in place that's going to
help with that. This is physical maturity and mental maturity
all happening at the same time. It doesn't happen.
Speaker 10 (14:16):
Look, and that's the big problem because the kids have
the big kids have to have a chance to play,
and there's not enough of them usually for them to
play in separate competition or team, so everyone ends up
playing together and that's where you get the big size
and weight differentials that The key is just to hang
(14:39):
in there during those years before high school because the
weight restrictions at high school are far stricter than they
are a year earlier. So for instance, last season, last
year before high school. This isn't the Harbor Union, which
I'm involved with the coaching a team in the Harbor Province,
seventy five kg for the for the kids in their
(15:02):
last year of junior rugby was the weight limit. You
could play over that if you get a dispensation. But
first year of high school it's sixty three kg. So
it's a far more even playing field, and if you are,
if you do way over that, you play a year up.
So it's a far more even playing field in all respects.
(15:23):
And as a result, I think it's it's more enjoyable
for kids.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
That's the main focus of this, isn't it? Patrick Make
it more enjoyable for the kids? So they stick around
with the game's owner as task though, isn't it. I
appreciate what they're doing and they're trying to change and
adjust all the times. That wow, what a thing to
bite off.
Speaker 10 (15:41):
It's all about participation for Newzianna Arabia at this age,
but it's not necessarily all about participation for junior coaches.
And I wrote about this as well for One News.
The story is up online now some coaches and I'm
sure this is applicable right across the board in New
Zealand sport and a matter of the sport, and it's
the same with netball. Some coaches just want to win
(16:04):
it all costs, you know, never mind that you're coaching
twelve and seven year olds. It's all about winning. It's
all about preventing the other teams from scoring tries and
trying to keep clean sheets and those sorts of attitudes,
in my opinion, are not helpful for attempting to keep kids,
(16:24):
and in particular boys, because it is largely boys in
the game.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Something that will be addressed in the future. I'm sure
they've got a lot of work in front of them
ends able to keep the game alive, and that's what
they're charged with. During Patrick McKendree, a digital sports writer
from One News, we thank you very much for your
time through your experience.
Speaker 11 (16:43):
Mate.
Speaker 10 (16:43):
Please to Darcy anytime.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Mate.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's Patrick McKendree discussing this issue. Mike Hester joined us
first up and he's said on rugby participation development manager
looking at these new concepts, these new adjustments to try
and encourage kids to enjoy the game more, learn more
for the game before they start playing full blown adult rugby.
(17:07):
If you will, I've said this and I'll go back
to it. I think the biggest reason that the game's
not growing at that level is fear of the unknown
and now unknown as the concussion problems. That's the big
thing that I think stopping. I think if you can
get your children into the game early and you don't
(17:29):
mind that and it can be mitigated against, which is
what Mike talked about fantastic, do what you can to
keep them there and they need hands on the ball.
They need to enjoy the game, Absolutely they do, but
that won't take away the issues and the worries that
people have got around the confrontational nature of the game,
the concussive nature on the game, and the fact that
(17:49):
it's human against human and when you start getting fifteen
sixteen seventeen, the big body's hitting each other hard. So yeah,
by all means, lead them into it, by all means,
train them up in the vagaries of the game, by running, passing, tackling,
enjoying yourself, and hopefully they'll stick around. But first, and
almost for me, they've got to look at concussion and
(18:10):
what the general populaces think about the damage the game
can do, because that's the narrative at the moment, more
so than the amount of people and the team, the
size of the park they play on. To me, that
is the crux. But you've got to congratulate you send
on Rugby for constantly looking to move and looking to change.
(18:31):
They're not sitting there with their bums on their hands
waiting for something to happen. They're actually having a crack.
I still think though it's concussion that's the one that's
stopping them. And you can, you can what everything you
want in there to change the nature of the game,
the platform, the game at that earlier age, but it
(18:53):
still doesn't take away from the fact it's a high
speed collision game and that freaks people out. What's stopping
your kids from playing? Is it you because of that?
Is it your kid because they don't get their hands
on the ball enough. What's the crux of this matter?
You can tell me on eight hundred eighty ten eighty
up next text in nineteen ninet two that this is
big ZB. The Panthers are beating the Hawks. Wow, twenty
(19:16):
four eighteen. The cobble together Indian team are getting the
job done nineteen nine two text I umb, I've got
plenty of time for that as well. It's twenty six
minutes after seven.
Speaker 8 (19:26):
No no need for the TMO.
Speaker 12 (19:38):
We've got the breakdown on sports talk call oh eight
hundred eighty News Talk ZIBE.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Twenty nine Sports talk on News Talk ZB. There's smoke
coming out of the text machine. Who but let's get
to the phone calls instead, oh eight one hundred eighty
ten eighty good evening, Patrick good his name, what's on
your mind?
Speaker 13 (20:09):
Oh, I totally disagree with what the news in rugby
unions thinking. I've been taking to rugby for teen years
and I'm always been a very defensive orientsive cake because
I've always thought I'd have to get the kids really
because rugby is a contact spot and if I don't
(20:32):
get them ready to go into contact, but then I'm
not doing my job.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I don't think that's what's based on. I think it's
more based on kids having the hand on the ball.
Speaker 13 (20:46):
They need to know how to tackle. And in the
teen years, I've never I've only hit Okay, I lie,
I've had two parents complaying in ten years.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
What about the the right with players retire or leave
the game or don't come back. Are you finding that
you've still got the same amount of players and the
turnovers there or the participation still there?
Speaker 13 (21:13):
Patrick, In the last two years, I must admit I've
lost about five players to soccer.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And why do you think that is they believe they
get more joy out of playing the game more because
based on the do players at that earlier age get
enough time to actually play the game to get their
hand on the ball. Is it too exclusively? I think
that's what they're aimed at here. They want to get
players engaged.
Speaker 13 (21:39):
Oh, I think because I coke eleven, twelve year old
and they all get to hands on the ball because
it's the idea. The idea is to cackle, take the
ball off them and then run.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right. So fundamentally, Chris, sorry, Patrick, you're against this.
You think it's okay as it is. It's not broke,
don't fix it.
Speaker 13 (22:00):
No, I think it's not broke. Don't fix it. They're
always going to be people that are it's a bit
too physical for us.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Patrick, Well, and they do. And thank you very much
for your input on that one. Let's move now to Chris.
Speaker 11 (22:15):
Good evening, Good evening does. Thanks for the time, Thanks
for yours. I'm I am in favor of the ripper
rugby between five and nine and then it goes to contact.
But what we do between the ages of ten and
fourteen is we have the players and age grade categories
(22:37):
and then therefore they stood, they get the contact. But
you're not having as I did as a kid, one
hundred and ten kilo bloke from down the road running
at me when I was forty five kilos. So I
think putting the players into wait divisions is a better
(22:59):
idea than making us less contactable, because if you're not
used to tackling, I'll tell you what, we will be
defensively weak and twenty years with the next generation come through.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I think they're trying to bolish that though, Chris Well,
I think from what I can get of this, they're
trying to get more players to spend more time on
the ball as opposed to specializing very early because the
short fat kid gets to be the hook of the year.
Speaker 11 (23:27):
Go.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
They want people to experience playing the game up until
their high school years and not getting fit into a box.
So they get to run and kick and pass and jump.
That's what they do, and then as they get to
that next age year, nine, year ten, then they can
start specializing. But earlier on they want people to feel
the expression of the game. I think that's what this
(23:48):
is based on.
Speaker 11 (23:50):
Yeah, and that's what you get between five and nine
and then between ten and fourteen. At that you sort
of wait rugby. But if you know you're a bit
of a big boy, you know you're going to be
in the front row. You know you have to be
a hooker or a troup and specializing in positions. I
(24:11):
went from wing to half back and the odd game
at fullback, but that was because I was quick at
that time. Not now, forgive me, but it's what you're
going to do is like teach them the game and
to push this out to fourteen at a touch rugby
(24:36):
level is just going to take down those players' abilities
to grow into that position and become a specialist.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Do you think they think that maybe at the moment,
though it's too early to become a specialist, they're thinking, Okay,
you're in You're in year seven, you're eight, and already
you have been told that you're the shape. Therefore, this
is the game you're going to play. And what they're
trying to do is go now, we're not going to
do that. We just want you playing and then once
you start getting slightly older, then you can start th
(25:06):
on that.
Speaker 9 (25:07):
Look.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I'm I'm not talking for them. I'm not part of this.
Boards not my idea. I'm just looking at what it's
what they're trying to do, what they're trying to achieve
out of this.
Speaker 11 (25:17):
My idea is the history of New Zealand rugby has
been you're a solid kid, You're going to be a hooker,
and then for the next ten years he trains himself
to be that and then becomes a Kevin Milamu or
a tailor or someone because he knows he's.
Speaker 14 (25:36):
Got one role to do.
Speaker 11 (25:38):
If we have everybody sees they're going to be a
Will Jordan, we won't have a forward pack.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Well, people would go into that. And I think also
and Christen, we've got to fly and thanks for answering
your time as always that a lot of this is
with I think some of us are thinking the wrong way.
This is not about developing the all Blacks. It's not.
It's not about constructing super rugby sides. It's not about
(26:05):
constructing an all black team to conquer the world. It's no,
it's about encouraging kids to play the game and enjoy
playing the game. Is that easy enough to understand, because
I think that's what they're talking about here. You're going
to get great, freakish players going to go through and
they're going to get through the levels, and we're going
to get that. But at that level, when you are ten, eleven,
(26:29):
twelve years old, you don't want a career in rugby.
You want to play the game and you don't. You
want to feel the touch of the ball, and you
want to run and express yourself. Want to play the
game for joy, not because you want to be an
all black. Those guys will sort themselves out. New Zealand
rugby has to care for the health of the game
(26:51):
for everybody, not just the very very top rung that
may or may not end up being all blacks. That's
their job. They're going to look after rugby, not just
a dany part of it. That's how I said anyway,
six Sports Talker and Newstalks z be it was a
call one hundred eight ten eighty you inflict a text
and as well if you like, We've had bucket loads
(27:12):
of them. I'll be wading through them untill next week
or try and get a couple to them. But I'd
rather hear your voice. Eight one hundred eighty ten eight
is a Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
I understand the harder.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Your turlestons want to let you.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
If you're a bit of a sports enthusiastic Jim Go
or someone who generally loves an active lifestyle, you understand
that niggli muscles cramps here can sometime get the way
hold you back. This is where element twelve magnesium from
About Health, the makers of the famous Lester's oil and
res V can help. Element twelve contains three bioavailable forms
(27:48):
of magnesium as well as the central nutrients like zinc
and selenium, plus active b vitamins to support superior absorption.
Active bodies need the right support, so choose element twelve
to support muscle health, energy levels, sleep and physical recovery.
And one convenient supplement call About Health and Auto Element
(28:10):
twelve magnesium. Use the code news talk and I will
send you a three month supply of Leicester's Nightcap veed
at ninety nine ninety five absolutely free to support deep
and restauredive sleep. Call eight hundred nine nine nine three
oh nine or jump on about Health dot co dot
n Z, read the label and take only as directed Susy.
(28:35):
It is at nineteen minutes to eight. We'll carry on
with a talker on this newfangled idea in New Zealand
Rugby about spreading the game a little wider in the
years nine and ten. Then you can start playing fifteen aside.
I'm not sure if everyone's quite got the handle on
this one. But that's okay. I'll talk to you about
it shortly. Blake.
Speaker 15 (28:56):
Hi, Yeah, I haven't heard the whole condo, but well,
I don't know what the goal is. If you spread
the game out until the spots and you know, play
touch rugby until they're fourteen, and the suddenly put them
in contact at that age, like you're going to have
the same problem anyway, and probably it's probably more pronounced,
(29:16):
you know, at fourteen when I was at school, that's
probably the most you know, the biggest difference in sizes
of players. You know, you got your skinny guy on
the wing and then you've got your big toup pards.
Like they're going to have the same problem anyway, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, no, Blake, what I think a lot of people
are misinterpreting what's being said here is they're going to
make it touch rugby or rip a rugby right through
till year ten. This is not what they're saying. What
they're saying is they they want to increase enjoyment and
participation at the younger levels to encourage children to still
play the game and keep going. It's not banning tackles
(29:52):
or getting rid of confrontational rugby. Because it's a confrontational game.
They just want to widen the space so there's slightly
fewer players out there, and so players can get an
idea of the game by getting their hand on the
board and they feel engaged. Because New Zealand Rugby is
not a charge of producing all blacks, they're in charge
of looking after the health of the game for everybody.
So they see this as being a way of keeping
(30:14):
people in the game because they feel like they're part
of it. They're not just watching somebody run away to
all black level. Does that make sense to you black?
Speaker 15 (30:23):
It does, but I mean I've lost the whole converse
in so how are they how are they supposed they're
going to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
They're going to reduce the amount of players to thirteen
up till year ten, and less than that early in
the piece, so there'll be more room on the field
and hopefully that means players have more engagement within the
game and they'll be playing sometimes on a smaller part
with even less people. And they believe that this is
(30:49):
the way it's going to happen.
Speaker 15 (30:50):
You've got less players, but if you're smaller in the field,
you're going to have the same amount of players to
meet her anyway, I.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Suppose it's an age group situation. You know what rugby's
like when you get down at nine eight, nine years old,
they just run around like a like a swarm of
bees following the ball room. But they're looking at ways
of increasing participation and keeping players in the game. That's
what they're trying to do, and like that's up for
argument and debate by all means, and that's why they
(31:16):
put it out.
Speaker 15 (31:18):
I kind of look at it and I go and maybe,
but you know, you've got a game Keny, he survived
and now he's one of our better players. A player
it's skinny and small and can't handle the content of rugby,
then maybe rugby isn't the sport. I mean, there's hundreds
of sports out there. If the kid can't handle the
nature of NRL or rugby, then maybe they do go
(31:42):
play sofer And there's nothing wrong with that. But maybe
that's just the way it is.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Granted, Blake, a lot of people would think like that,
But also you're excluding a hell of a lot of
people who might be interested in the game because maybe
at that age they're not big enough to play the game.
They walk as I said, this is about the health
of rugby at that level. It's not about finding the
next All Black. I'll come eventually. Why, Jeff, how are you.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
Hi?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Jeff?
Speaker 9 (32:15):
Yeah, hi mate. I'll just have to make this very
quick because I've got to go to work now. Listen.
I played rugby hears of age and I loved it.
We weren't there even thinking about I knew about the
All Blacks, but I wasn't thinking that it would ever
being all Black. But I loved the game. And by
(32:37):
the time we got eighteen years of age and we
were we had a coach at high school or college,
things were heazing up a little bit, like there was
serious passing, there was scrums, there was lineouts. So we
just went through a slow process of enjoying the game
(33:01):
and not getting too physical and dirty about it about it.
And it wasn't until later on in the years when
I did play rugby, I played them tow on are here.
Then the real get into it was there, but we
led up to that. We didn't go in there with
(33:24):
a full force, but we enjoyed the game.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, that's what they want to encourage death, They want
to encourage more kids to play the game and stay
within that game until they reach a maturation stage where
they can actually engage in a role that is more
suitable to who they are, as opposed to pigeonholing players
when they're they very young, and that might encourage them
to desert the game because they don't like what they're seeing.
(33:51):
I understand what they're trying to do. Hi, Warrick, how
are you?
Speaker 14 (33:56):
I find? Said, just like to make two points one?
I'm eighty six. Two second meet. I coached my boys
in the late sixties and early seventies at Wellington when
they were playing at that time, everything was in wait
(34:16):
divisions and way in day was a big point or
a big day for the young kids. They went along
and got Wade and said, oh, I'm in such and
such a team and so on. And the second point
is that Bill Freeman at that stage was coaching the
Wellington provincial team and he came and spoke to us
and said, look, all I want you to do when
(34:38):
you're practicing with the kids, have fifteen balls there and
allow them all to run around and throw the ball
around and learn to handle the ball. We'll focus on
getting them specialists with the skills later in life.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
And that's not me trying to do. They don't want
to detract. They don't want players at the ages of
nine or teen feeling like they have no place because
it's getting dominated. They want them to stay in the
game as they grow. They go, Okay, I get a
feel for it. I know what's going on now, I
know where everything is, I know how this game operates.
Now I'm going to specialize. I think that's what they're
trying to do. I think that's what they're trying to do,
(35:17):
trying to keep the game alive at a grassroots level.
Is that so bad? And I've had tens and tens
and tens of texts people complaining about it not being
a contact game. It's always been contact with it. That
(35:37):
they're not taking away contact from this. It's not the
focus of it. They're not. They're trying to keep kids
in the game, and this is the way they see
they're doing it. Kids don't like contact being tackled. They're
going to be out of the game eventually, aren't they.
But if they have a sense of the game and
they enjoy what they're doing, they're more likely to carry on.
(35:59):
If they feel they can't play from very early on
in their career, they're going to walk from the game.
It's about everybody. It's not just about the best. Jud
Flavl joins us next, and on the basketball the Hawks
have turned at around fifty one to thirty eight over
the Panthers a halftime Rodney Green Arena and napier. Jud
Flavel talking sells NBL joins us next as news talks
(36:21):
there by it's happen. It's away from our eight o'clos
marks lash up after the news package at the top
of the hour. But let's talk hoops. We're going now
to New Zealand. Tall Black's head to coach Judd that
Flavl sells NBL gets underway today tonight. Judd, welcome mate, Hey,
(36:45):
how's it going going good? Probably not as busy as
you are. Got quite a lot on your plates, sells NBL,
this season gets under way tonight. Are not only high
performance director around the candeby Rams, the team that you
coach to a consecutive championships, are also the head coach
of the Tall Blacks.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
Busy man, yeah, a little little busy Yeah.
Speaker 16 (37:05):
I got a a full wardrobe with both sets of
those uniforms that you just talked about. But it's basketball
at the end of the day, and it's a basketball
in New Zealand. So yeah, happy that I have these
roles and can impact or influence or help wherever I can.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
It can be difficult to keep your nose out of things.
Speaker 9 (37:24):
We've got.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Well, Quinn Clinton now was running a cutter for the
Canterbury Rams. Is the new head coach, your high performance,
it's your team. They've won two consecutive championships. How easy
is it going to be for you to keep your
hands away from it?
Speaker 16 (37:38):
Jud Oh yeah, I wasn't sure, like you know how
that would be when it's sort of guess when you
come to the practices and things like that. But you know,
if I'm really honest, it's something that I guess. I mean,
I care a lot about the RAMS in the organization
and what they've done for me and my family has
(38:00):
been amazing. And Quinn is something someone that you know,
we had his ear marked as somebody that would would
be looking at to take over once I left. And
you know, once once the TALKBX role was, once they
came about, I think the time was right.
Speaker 7 (38:17):
And look, he's he's a he's a great coach.
Speaker 16 (38:22):
He's one, he's young, would be one of the youngest,
if not the youngest that that's been the head coach
of the New zeal And NBA team.
Speaker 7 (38:28):
But bright future. And my role was just to really
help out where I can with him.
Speaker 16 (38:33):
And the fortunate thing and obviously the advantage is he's
been part of the last two championships as a player
and as an assistant coach, so you know, he knows
what's what. He's not trying to reinvent the world, you know,
but he'll find his voice and he'll know, he'll get
comfortable in the shoes and and the rest of us will,
(38:54):
you know, I guess support and jump on board.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
It starts tonight, runs through to mid July. Pack schedule
this ball almost every night throughout the week. Number of
teams engaged there and I suppose we look at the
rise and rise of basketball, this is a part of it.
The way this competition has been run managed. When you
look at the Rapid League, for example, it's really charging forward.
(39:18):
Must be wonderful to be a part of this progression.
Being as here a man who's been involved in basketball
well pretty much your whole life.
Speaker 7 (39:24):
Jud It's it's really cool just to see.
Speaker 16 (39:28):
You know, I think the NBL is really a great
showcase for our basketball in this country and for our.
Speaker 7 (39:38):
Youngsters that are coming through.
Speaker 16 (39:40):
You know, we've got more and more players and now
playing internationally, which is fantastic.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
And they all started, you know, all our guys started in.
Speaker 16 (39:47):
The New Zealand NBL, So this is a great nurturing
ground and fostering our talent.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
And they'll be superstars one day. And you know, we'll
have more and more players that are.
Speaker 16 (40:00):
Playing in the Australian NBL or over in Japan or
internationally Europe or the States.
Speaker 7 (40:05):
So it's an it's in a good show, it's in
good shape.
Speaker 16 (40:09):
We've got I think, you know, this year, I guess
a lot of players, a lot of exciting talent coming through.
Jackson Ball, who's playing for Hawks Bay, you know, just
sixteen years old, made his talkback stab in February. Expect
big things from him. Card of hawpoy up in Todo.
(40:30):
You know, I was gonna say Phil James, but his
son Hayden Jones Nelson and then you know our own
here at Canabrey with Thomas Isaac as well. So yeah,
really those are names of the of the future and
but I expect big things from those guys in Many Moore.
Speaker 8 (40:48):
Forget the refs.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Call, you make the call. On Sports Talk on your
home of Sports News Talks. For more from Sports Talk,
listen live to News Talks it'd be from seven pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Waldegrave
from News Talk SED Be.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Good evening, Welcome in to sports Talk seven after seven
it is. It's a Wednesday evening, March twelve, twenty twenty
five on Darcy Walter Grave. From here through until eight
o'clock tonight, we have a number of guests, starting off
with Mike Hester. He's on rugby Participation Development Manager. Are
(00:52):
talking about the reduction in size of rugby teams in
high school. What they are hoping to achieve, how long
it will take to achieve that, what the feedback has
been so far. We go also to Patrick McKendree, one
news rugby writer and coach, as well at a lower level,
(01:14):
around the effect that these changes, these proposed changes will
have on the game. Towards the end of the show,
we'll talk about the sales at NBL. Jud Flaffl joins
us Tour Black's coach. Of course, he was the coach
of the Cabory Rams who won back to back titles,
and now he is actually involved with the Rams, not
(01:35):
at a coaching level, but at a development level for them.
We'll talk to him about that the sales NBL, what
he sees in that to boot that is all coming up.
Your calls on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty always
room for them and he can text nine two nine
to two that is z B z B. A standard
charge though will apply. And talking about Sales nb L,
(01:57):
the rather depleted Indian entry, the Panthers are on court
up against the Hawks of the Sales NBL gets underway
and keep up today the scores in that as well.
But before any of us, how about a bit of
this sport today and sports today Tyrrel Lomax and are
back for the Canes. Head coach Clark laid Law is
(02:19):
keeping enthusiasm though at a sensible level around the abrasive hooker.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
We can't get too excited or train shot cut. What
the next two or three weeks look like. Yeah, he's
bucking the squad. He still got a lot of what
to do. He's still got a pleaar rugby. But the
expectations that he builds his season properly, and you know,
we hope and we expect them to pley really well.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
As mentioned, Sal's NBA gets going this evening, but not
in the state all I'd hoped for the introduction of
the South Auckland based Indian Panthers has been as shambles.
Eight players won't step out on the court against the
Hawks to night jude A, visa problems, nasal representation, dramas
and army. The chair of the Hawks board, Sally Crown,
(03:01):
hides to disappointment, Well, we've.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Got a lot of time and effect and two welcoming
then that it was a really awesome experience.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
The Panthers roster has been propped up with well, I
don't know. I'm not sure. Black Caps one Day International
skip out Mitch Flatline Santa has played up to his
nickname expertly when asked about the future of the one
day International format.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
I think that's a massive thing going forward. I think
with the amount of cricket that's that's on all around
the world, you know, trying to fit all three formats
in might be a challenge. I think there is still
a place for a rodio cricket. As you know, we
saw another great.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Sort of it. It's level headed, I tell you, and
the hard to liken even harder to trust. Debt fleeing
oil baron mister Jim Ratcliffe has pompously stated his case
for a brand new four point five billion dollar stadium
in Manchester. With his pants on fire, he said.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
This, the North of England deserves to have a stadium
England can play football, that we can hold the Champions
League final and it should be a stadium that's befitting
of Manchester United's.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Stature stature fourteenth. And we're to the company's task with
building Gym's pipe dream. That makes sure he pays you
for your work first cash up front. I trust me,
it's the only thing you can do.
Speaker 7 (04:28):
And that Scot today.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Eleven minutes after seven, and let's talk about rugby now
at a lower level where the proposal is to reduce
the playing numbers at a lower level and full sized
teams of rugby a fifteen a side won't start and
tell year ten, year nine, year ten much later in
(04:52):
the piece. And we're going to talk to that now
with Mike Hester and he's on Rugby Participation Development Manager
about this concept and others are helping to promote the
game and keep the game alive at those lower levels.
It joins us now, my carest Good.
Speaker 8 (05:10):
Evening, mates, good evening, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, thanks for joining us. It's a very interesting story.
Another tweak, I suppose, and the way rugby is rolled
out specifically aimed at the youth, which of course is
the green shoots. Isn't it really of the sport? You've
got to look after that, So could you tell us
nice and simply what exactly this proposal is all this
(05:34):
rollout is going to be? What are we looking at?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, So just to set that up, we've been going
through a whole series of changes over the last five
years around our small Blacks development model, and so that's
where kids learn how to play the game, from when
they're very little right through to when they're sort of
ready to transition to the adult version of the game.
So over the last five years we've been steadily working
through a number of ages and stages. Principle behind those
changes is obviously to create more meaningful minutes for kids
(05:59):
playing the game and the way that we want them
to play, in the way they want to play, reducing
the sort of complexity in the structures where it's not
really necessary because really able to contest, and also making
sure the game design sort of seats suits their needs physically, mentally, cognitively,
et cetera. And so a lot of that's around principles
of smaller sided games for longer. So the changes that
being introduced over the last sort of four or five
(06:21):
years have been sort of under six through to under
eleven space. We've got one more change in the under
ten space which will just close that piece of work off,
which gets introduced next year. And what we're now starting
to turn our minds to is proposals around what would
happen around the under twelve to thirteen under fourteen space.
And so some of the thinking there is around, okay,
as kids are moving into those stages around physical maturation,
(06:43):
what's the right level of rugby that suits their needs,
engages them, helps them feel like they're progressing, but also
is appropriate for their age and stage.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
So what pushbacks are you expecting from what you've done
so far? Where is going to be the area where players, parents,
schools and the light go. We don't like this.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
People have a strong view of If it doesn't look
like fifteen out side rugby with full lineouts and scrums
and all the systems and structures that go with it,
it's not really rugby. But the reality is we've been
moving from a sort of game centric approach where we're
just trying to make players fit that kind of mode
of play to more participant centric approach where we're trying
to make sure the game fits the players. We know
(07:25):
that fifteen's is a really important part of the experience,
as is now sevens, but there's other ways that people
want to play, both in terms of how they learn,
but or also how they engage, so contact and non
contact formats become really important. So where we are expecting
pushback is just through the change of In some cases
kids are playing fifteen a side rugby now at eleven
(07:46):
and twelve years old, we're proposing that that be deferred
to later, probably in that thirteen or fourteen year old space,
and also not introducing to the same degree scrums and
lineouts with the same complexity, both in tyms of size
and in contest when the kids are not quite ready
to be profiled into those positions. We don't quite know
what they're going to look like them be through meturation,
(08:08):
but also because they're not able to safely contest them.
So we don't want to have an undue influence of
these system and structures when naturally we want to create
more minutes with playing open rugby unstructured play more autonomy
around making rugby decisions.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So it's about increasing enjoyment. It's about keeping kids playing
the game from when they start and encouraging parents, I
suppose as well to keep their children in the game.
The elephant in the room, he has got to be concussion,
doesn't it. Mike, How if you address that because a
number of parents so we don't want our children playing
(08:42):
this sport. It's dangerous. You mentioned some safety measures there,
but how does that work with the concussion debate.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We know that concussions in the junior space are actually
rarely low. We see concussion rates probably more of a
focus for us to address in the sort of teenage
and adult space. But that's not to say that we're
taking our off the ball in terms of safety.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
In terms of what's happening between the white lines.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Obviously, it has been a big focus on reducing tackle
height and so that continues to be a focus for us,
and we're seeing the benefits of that already globally in
terms of the impact of lowing tackle height and getting
heads out of the same airsplace. Some of these changes
that we're making in the junior framework are actually also
coach centric, and that we're trying to lighten a load
(09:28):
of bit for coaches about the curriculum they have to
deliver at each agent stage, so that can actionly focus
on a real critical view tackle height and successful ball
carry or confident ball carrier to of those things, whereas previously.
Speaker 8 (09:42):
When they've had to also deal with that.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
As well as scrums and mine outs and big numbers,
it means that the coachable moments around those critical safety
bits gets compromised, so that's also potentially a benefit. And
then more broadly, the more choices people have, the more
opportunity they have to choose kind of rugby that they
want to play in.
Speaker 8 (10:00):
So we know rip has been a really.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Successful, well loved part of our game under sixes and
under sevens, but that largely up until a few years
ago was sort of the end of the non contact
sort of opportunity for kids, whereas in more recent times
we've introduced at rugby and we're now part of the
sort of world Rugby Tea on Rugby troll roll out
across the world, and so we'll be releasing that over
(10:22):
the next year or so into in the zone system,
and that's a non contact variant chooses all of the
sort of moments and the game sense that we want
for kids. But it's a non contact variant, and so
we just have to help, you know, normalize, legitimize these
different ways of playing.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And engagement for children. And this is really important and
being touching on this as well. I know that when
I was a lot younger playing the game, didn't see
the ball a great deal and I just want to
get my hands on the ball, and I wanted to run.
The complexities around scrums and lineups and so on and
so forth it detracted from the game for me, But
(10:59):
I was like, what is all this? I just want
to play on my mates pass, kick, run. This is
a lot of what this is based on as well,
actually getting young people to enjoy the game in its
essence for what it actually is.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Absolutely, So we know that running with the ball in hand,
wind in your hear, going for the tryline really catches
the essence of what rugby is for a lot of kids.
So creating those sort of meaningful moments, those opportunities is
what we're trying to maximize. We know from other sports
that largely having control of the ball is power, and
so how do we create more opportunities for kids at
(11:33):
all levels. Now as we go that kids also want
to progress, so as we can introduce the complexity of
the game, scrum and line out systems and structures that
follow that, they will relish that, but only at the
right time.
Speaker 8 (11:44):
So again a big focus on how do we create.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
More meaningful moments or other things that they really enjoy,
And we know this from the work that we've done,
is that having minutes on the park, getting compliments from
the coach, getting to play all the positions, seeing their
mates play, these are the things that they really value
as opposed to perhaps some of the things that us
adults think that are really important for them, such as winning,
meeting famous players and getting getting what's a cat?
Speaker 8 (12:07):
So again, a lot of these changes.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Rooted in sort of deep research and experiences that we've
drawn from both here in New Zealand and across the world.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Into our participation development manager. Mike Hester, thanks very much
for your time here on news Talk ZBB. You have
a wonderful week.
Speaker 8 (12:22):
Thanks having on Darcy, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's nineteen minutes after seven Mike Hester, New Zealand Rugby
Participation Development Manager talking about these new proposals for the game,
which leads us on now to Patrick McKendree, colleague of mine,
one new digital rugby writer and a coach of the
game as well. He joins us to talk about this concept,
(12:48):
this idea. First question, Patrick, and welcome all these changes
from injured encourage parents to let their children play the game.
Speaker 10 (12:59):
That's a really good question. And so statistics show that
ten and eleven year old's are the the biggest group
in the game, the highest participants. After that there is
a relatively steep decline in terms of participation, and then
it plateaus after that. And when they're teenagers and older.
Will it keep them in the game. I'm not sure. Look,
(13:21):
I think everything, every effort in keeping kids in rugby
is a good idea from my point of view. But
in my experience that the biggest turnoff for kids and
parents is in those years just before they reach sort
of thirteen eleven, twelve thirteen, when boys in particular are
(13:44):
hitting puberty at different rates. Are the size differential that's
the biggest turnoff for kids, the potential for injury when
you're running against kids literally twice as big as you
and twice as heavy. That that's tough for a lot
of kids to handle.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Is there anything can be done about that? They just
so the maturation maturation rates of human beings, it's almost
impossible to put in anything in place that's going to
help with that. This is physical maturity and mental maturity
all happening at the same time. It doesn't happen.
Speaker 10 (14:16):
Look, and that's the big problem because the kids have
the big kids have to have a chance to play,
and there's not enough of them usually for them to
play in separate competition or team, so everyone ends up
playing together and that's where you get the big size
and weight differentials that The key is just to hang
(14:39):
in there during those years before high school because the
weight restrictions at high school are far stricter than they
are a year earlier. So for instance, last season, last
year before high school. This isn't the Harbor Union, which
I'm involved with the coaching a team in the Harbor Province,
seventy five kg for the for the kids in their
(15:02):
last year of junior rugby was the weight limit. You
could play over that if you get a dispensation. But
first year of high school it's sixty three kg. So
it's a far more even playing field, and if you are,
if you do way over that, you play a year up.
So it's a far more even playing field in all respects.
(15:23):
And as a result, I think it's it's more enjoyable
for kids.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
That's the main focus of this, isn't it? Patrick Make
it more enjoyable for the kids? So they stick around
with the game's owner as task though, isn't it. I
appreciate what they're doing and they're trying to change and
adjust all the times. That wow, what a thing to
bite off.
Speaker 10 (15:41):
It's all about participation for Newzianna Arabia at this age,
but it's not necessarily all about participation for junior coaches.
And I wrote about this as well for One News.
The story is up online now some coaches and I'm
sure this is applicable right across the board in New
Zealand sport and a matter of the sport, and it's
the same with netball. Some coaches just want to win
(16:04):
it all costs, you know, never mind that you're coaching
twelve and seven year olds. It's all about winning. It's
all about preventing the other teams from scoring tries and
trying to keep clean sheets and those sorts of attitudes,
in my opinion, are not helpful for attempting to keep kids,
(16:24):
and in particular boys, because it is largely boys in
the game.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Something that will be addressed in the future. I'm sure
they've got a lot of work in front of them
ends able to keep the game alive, and that's what
they're charged with. During Patrick McKendree, a digital sports writer
from One News, we thank you very much for your
time through your experience.
Speaker 11 (16:43):
Mate.
Speaker 10 (16:43):
Please to Darcy anytime.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Mate.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's Patrick McKendree discussing this issue. Mike Hester joined us
first up and he's said on rugby participation development manager
looking at these new concepts, these new adjustments to try
and encourage kids to enjoy the game more, learn more
for the game before they start playing full blown adult rugby.
(17:07):
If you will, I've said this and I'll go back
to it. I think the biggest reason that the game's
not growing at that level is fear of the unknown
and now unknown as the concussion problems. That's the big
thing that I think stopping. I think if you can
get your children into the game early and you don't
(17:29):
mind that and it can be mitigated against, which is
what Mike talked about fantastic, do what you can to
keep them there and they need hands on the ball.
They need to enjoy the game, Absolutely they do, but
that won't take away the issues and the worries that
people have got around the confrontational nature of the game,
the concussive nature on the game, and the fact that
(17:49):
it's human against human and when you start getting fifteen
sixteen seventeen, the big body's hitting each other hard. So yeah,
by all means, lead them into it, by all means,
train them up in the vagaries of the game, by running, passing, tackling,
enjoying yourself, and hopefully they'll stick around. But first, and
almost for me, they've got to look at concussion and
(18:10):
what the general populaces think about the damage the game
can do, because that's the narrative at the moment, more
so than the amount of people and the team, the
size of the park they play on. To me, that
is the crux. But you've got to congratulate you send
on Rugby for constantly looking to move and looking to change.
(18:31):
They're not sitting there with their bums on their hands
waiting for something to happen. They're actually having a crack.
I still think though it's concussion that's the one that's
stopping them. And you can, you can what everything you
want in there to change the nature of the game,
the platform, the game at that earlier age, but it
(18:53):
still doesn't take away from the fact it's a high
speed collision game and that freaks people out. What's stopping
your kids from playing? Is it you because of that?
Is it your kid because they don't get their hands
on the ball enough. What's the crux of this matter?
You can tell me on eight hundred eighty ten eighty
up next text in nineteen ninet two that this is
big ZB. The Panthers are beating the Hawks. Wow, twenty
(19:16):
four eighteen. The cobble together Indian team are getting the
job done nineteen nine two text I umb, I've got
plenty of time for that as well. It's twenty six
minutes after seven.
Speaker 8 (19:26):
No no need for the TMO.
Speaker 12 (19:38):
We've got the breakdown on sports talk call oh eight
hundred eighty News Talk ZIBE.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Twenty nine Sports talk on News Talk ZB. There's smoke
coming out of the text machine. Who but let's get
to the phone calls instead, oh eight one hundred eighty
ten eighty good evening, Patrick good his name, what's on
your mind?
Speaker 13 (20:09):
Oh, I totally disagree with what the news in rugby
unions thinking. I've been taking to rugby for teen years
and I'm always been a very defensive orientsive cake because
I've always thought I'd have to get the kids really
because rugby is a contact spot and if I don't
(20:32):
get them ready to go into contact, but then I'm
not doing my job.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I don't think that's what's based on. I think it's
more based on kids having the hand on the ball.
Speaker 13 (20:46):
They need to know how to tackle. And in the
teen years, I've never I've only hit Okay, I lie,
I've had two parents complaying in ten years.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
What about the the right with players retire or leave
the game or don't come back. Are you finding that
you've still got the same amount of players and the
turnovers there or the participation still there?
Speaker 13 (21:13):
Patrick, In the last two years, I must admit I've
lost about five players to soccer.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And why do you think that is they believe they
get more joy out of playing the game more because
based on the do players at that earlier age get
enough time to actually play the game to get their
hand on the ball. Is it too exclusively? I think
that's what they're aimed at here. They want to get
players engaged.
Speaker 13 (21:39):
Oh, I think because I coke eleven, twelve year old
and they all get to hands on the ball because
it's the idea. The idea is to cackle, take the
ball off them and then run.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right. So fundamentally, Chris, sorry, Patrick, you're against this.
You think it's okay as it is. It's not broke,
don't fix it.
Speaker 13 (22:00):
No, I think it's not broke. Don't fix it. They're
always going to be people that are it's a bit
too physical for us.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Patrick, Well, and they do. And thank you very much
for your input on that one. Let's move now to Chris.
Speaker 11 (22:15):
Good evening, Good evening does. Thanks for the time, Thanks
for yours. I'm I am in favor of the ripper
rugby between five and nine and then it goes to contact.
But what we do between the ages of ten and
fourteen is we have the players and age grade categories
(22:37):
and then therefore they stood, they get the contact. But
you're not having as I did as a kid, one
hundred and ten kilo bloke from down the road running
at me when I was forty five kilos. So I
think putting the players into wait divisions is a better
(22:59):
idea than making us less contactable, because if you're not
used to tackling, I'll tell you what, we will be
defensively weak and twenty years with the next generation come through.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I think they're trying to bolish that though, Chris Well,
I think from what I can get of this, they're
trying to get more players to spend more time on
the ball as opposed to specializing very early because the
short fat kid gets to be the hook of the year.
Speaker 11 (23:27):
Go.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
They want people to experience playing the game up until
their high school years and not getting fit into a box.
So they get to run and kick and pass and jump.
That's what they do, and then as they get to
that next age year, nine, year ten, then they can
start specializing. But earlier on they want people to feel
the expression of the game. I think that's what this
(23:48):
is based on.
Speaker 11 (23:50):
Yeah, and that's what you get between five and nine
and then between ten and fourteen. At that you sort
of wait rugby. But if you know you're a bit
of a big boy, you know you're going to be
in the front row. You know you have to be
a hooker or a troup and specializing in positions. I
(24:11):
went from wing to half back and the odd game
at fullback, but that was because I was quick at
that time. Not now, forgive me, but it's what you're
going to do is like teach them the game and
to push this out to fourteen at a touch rugby
(24:36):
level is just going to take down those players' abilities
to grow into that position and become a specialist.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Do you think they think that maybe at the moment,
though it's too early to become a specialist, they're thinking, Okay,
you're in You're in year seven, you're eight, and already
you have been told that you're the shape. Therefore, this
is the game you're going to play. And what they're
trying to do is go now, we're not going to
do that. We just want you playing and then once
you start getting slightly older, then you can start th
(25:06):
on that.
Speaker 9 (25:07):
Look.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I'm I'm not talking for them. I'm not part of this.
Boards not my idea. I'm just looking at what it's
what they're trying to do, what they're trying to achieve
out of this.
Speaker 11 (25:17):
My idea is the history of New Zealand rugby has
been you're a solid kid, You're going to be a hooker,
and then for the next ten years he trains himself
to be that and then becomes a Kevin Milamu or
a tailor or someone because he knows he's.
Speaker 14 (25:36):
Got one role to do.
Speaker 11 (25:38):
If we have everybody sees they're going to be a
Will Jordan, we won't have a forward pack.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Well, people would go into that. And I think also
and Christen, we've got to fly and thanks for answering
your time as always that a lot of this is
with I think some of us are thinking the wrong way.
This is not about developing the all Blacks. It's not.
It's not about constructing super rugby sides. It's not about
(26:05):
constructing an all black team to conquer the world. It's no,
it's about encouraging kids to play the game and enjoy
playing the game. Is that easy enough to understand, because
I think that's what they're talking about here. You're going
to get great, freakish players going to go through and
they're going to get through the levels, and we're going
to get that. But at that level, when you are ten, eleven,
(26:29):
twelve years old, you don't want a career in rugby.
You want to play the game and you don't. You
want to feel the touch of the ball, and you
want to run and express yourself. Want to play the
game for joy, not because you want to be an
all black. Those guys will sort themselves out. New Zealand
rugby has to care for the health of the game
(26:51):
for everybody, not just the very very top rung that
may or may not end up being all blacks. That's
their job. They're going to look after rugby, not just
a dany part of it. That's how I said anyway,
six Sports Talker and Newstalks z be it was a
call one hundred eight ten eighty you inflict a text
and as well if you like, We've had bucket loads
(27:12):
of them. I'll be wading through them untill next week
or try and get a couple to them. But I'd
rather hear your voice. Eight one hundred eighty ten eight
is a Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
I understand the harder.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Your turlestons want to let you.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
If you're a bit of a sports enthusiastic Jim Go
or someone who generally loves an active lifestyle, you understand
that niggli muscles cramps here can sometime get the way
hold you back. This is where element twelve magnesium from
About Health, the makers of the famous Lester's oil and
res V can help. Element twelve contains three bioavailable forms
(27:48):
of magnesium as well as the central nutrients like zinc
and selenium, plus active b vitamins to support superior absorption.
Active bodies need the right support, so choose element twelve
to support muscle health, energy levels, sleep and physical recovery.
And one convenient supplement call About Health and Auto Element
(28:10):
twelve magnesium. Use the code news talk and I will
send you a three month supply of Leicester's Nightcap veed
at ninety nine ninety five absolutely free to support deep
and restauredive sleep. Call eight hundred nine nine nine three
oh nine or jump on about Health dot co dot
n Z, read the label and take only as directed Susy.
(28:35):
It is at nineteen minutes to eight. We'll carry on
with a talker on this newfangled idea in New Zealand
Rugby about spreading the game a little wider in the
years nine and ten. Then you can start playing fifteen aside.
I'm not sure if everyone's quite got the handle on
this one. But that's okay. I'll talk to you about
it shortly. Blake.
Speaker 15 (28:56):
Hi, Yeah, I haven't heard the whole condo, but well,
I don't know what the goal is. If you spread
the game out until the spots and you know, play
touch rugby until they're fourteen, and the suddenly put them
in contact at that age, like you're going to have
the same problem anyway, and probably it's probably more pronounced,
(29:16):
you know, at fourteen when I was at school, that's
probably the most you know, the biggest difference in sizes
of players. You know, you got your skinny guy on
the wing and then you've got your big toup pards.
Like they're going to have the same problem anyway, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, no, Blake, what I think a lot of people
are misinterpreting what's being said here is they're going to
make it touch rugby or rip a rugby right through
till year ten. This is not what they're saying. What
they're saying is they they want to increase enjoyment and
participation at the younger levels to encourage children to still
play the game and keep going. It's not banning tackles
(29:52):
or getting rid of confrontational rugby. Because it's a confrontational game.
They just want to widen the space so there's slightly
fewer players out there, and so players can get an
idea of the game by getting their hand on the
board and they feel engaged. Because New Zealand Rugby is
not a charge of producing all blacks, they're in charge
of looking after the health of the game for everybody.
So they see this as being a way of keeping
(30:14):
people in the game because they feel like they're part
of it. They're not just watching somebody run away to
all black level. Does that make sense to you black?
Speaker 15 (30:23):
It does, but I mean I've lost the whole converse
in so how are they how are they supposed they're
going to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
They're going to reduce the amount of players to thirteen
up till year ten, and less than that early in
the piece, so there'll be more room on the field
and hopefully that means players have more engagement within the
game and they'll be playing sometimes on a smaller part
with even less people. And they believe that this is
(30:49):
the way it's going to happen.
Speaker 15 (30:50):
You've got less players, but if you're smaller in the field,
you're going to have the same amount of players to
meet her anyway, I.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Suppose it's an age group situation. You know what rugby's
like when you get down at nine eight, nine years old,
they just run around like a like a swarm of
bees following the ball room. But they're looking at ways
of increasing participation and keeping players in the game. That's
what they're trying to do, and like that's up for
argument and debate by all means, and that's why they
(31:16):
put it out.
Speaker 15 (31:18):
I kind of look at it and I go and maybe,
but you know, you've got a game Keny, he survived
and now he's one of our better players. A player
it's skinny and small and can't handle the content of rugby,
then maybe rugby isn't the sport. I mean, there's hundreds
of sports out there. If the kid can't handle the
nature of NRL or rugby, then maybe they do go
(31:42):
play sofer And there's nothing wrong with that. But maybe
that's just the way it is.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Granted, Blake, a lot of people would think like that,
But also you're excluding a hell of a lot of
people who might be interested in the game because maybe
at that age they're not big enough to play the game.
They walk as I said, this is about the health
of rugby at that level. It's not about finding the
next All Black. I'll come eventually. Why, Jeff, how are you.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
Hi?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Jeff?
Speaker 9 (32:15):
Yeah, hi mate. I'll just have to make this very
quick because I've got to go to work now. Listen.
I played rugby hears of age and I loved it.
We weren't there even thinking about I knew about the
All Blacks, but I wasn't thinking that it would ever
being all Black. But I loved the game. And by
(32:37):
the time we got eighteen years of age and we
were we had a coach at high school or college,
things were heazing up a little bit, like there was
serious passing, there was scrums, there was lineouts. So we
just went through a slow process of enjoying the game
(33:01):
and not getting too physical and dirty about it about it.
And it wasn't until later on in the years when
I did play rugby, I played them tow on are here.
Then the real get into it was there, but we
led up to that. We didn't go in there with
(33:24):
a full force, but we enjoyed the game.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, that's what they want to encourage death, They want
to encourage more kids to play the game and stay
within that game until they reach a maturation stage where
they can actually engage in a role that is more
suitable to who they are, as opposed to pigeonholing players
when they're they very young, and that might encourage them
to desert the game because they don't like what they're seeing.
(33:51):
I understand what they're trying to do. Hi, Warrick, how
are you?
Speaker 14 (33:56):
I find? Said, just like to make two points one?
I'm eighty six. Two second meet. I coached my boys
in the late sixties and early seventies at Wellington when
they were playing at that time, everything was in wait
(34:16):
divisions and way in day was a big point or
a big day for the young kids. They went along
and got Wade and said, oh, I'm in such and
such a team and so on. And the second point
is that Bill Freeman at that stage was coaching the
Wellington provincial team and he came and spoke to us
and said, look, all I want you to do when
(34:38):
you're practicing with the kids, have fifteen balls there and
allow them all to run around and throw the ball
around and learn to handle the ball. We'll focus on
getting them specialists with the skills later in life.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
And that's not me trying to do. They don't want
to detract. They don't want players at the ages of
nine or teen feeling like they have no place because
it's getting dominated. They want them to stay in the
game as they grow. They go, Okay, I get a
feel for it. I know what's going on now, I
know where everything is, I know how this game operates.
Now I'm going to specialize. I think that's what they're
trying to do. I think that's what they're trying to do,
(35:17):
trying to keep the game alive at a grassroots level.
Is that so bad? And I've had tens and tens
and tens of texts people complaining about it not being
a contact game. It's always been contact with it. That
(35:37):
they're not taking away contact from this. It's not the
focus of it. They're not. They're trying to keep kids
in the game, and this is the way they see
they're doing it. Kids don't like contact being tackled. They're
going to be out of the game eventually, aren't they.
But if they have a sense of the game and
they enjoy what they're doing, they're more likely to carry on.
(35:59):
If they feel they can't play from very early on
in their career, they're going to walk from the game.
It's about everybody. It's not just about the best. Jud
Flavl joins us next, and on the basketball the Hawks
have turned at around fifty one to thirty eight over
the Panthers a halftime Rodney Green Arena and napier. Jud
Flavel talking sells NBL joins us next as news talks
(36:21):
there by it's happen. It's away from our eight o'clos
marks lash up after the news package at the top
of the hour. But let's talk hoops. We're going now
to New Zealand. Tall Black's head to coach Judd that
Flavl sells NBL gets underway today tonight. Judd, welcome mate, Hey,
(36:45):
how's it going going good? Probably not as busy as
you are. Got quite a lot on your plates, sells NBL,
this season gets under way tonight. Are not only high
performance director around the candeby Rams, the team that you
coach to a consecutive championships, are also the head coach
of the Tall Blacks.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
Busy man, yeah, a little little busy Yeah.
Speaker 16 (37:05):
I got a a full wardrobe with both sets of
those uniforms that you just talked about. But it's basketball
at the end of the day, and it's a basketball
in New Zealand. So yeah, happy that I have these
roles and can impact or influence or help wherever I can.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
It can be difficult to keep your nose out of things.
Speaker 9 (37:24):
We've got.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Well, Quinn Clinton now was running a cutter for the
Canterbury Rams. Is the new head coach, your high performance,
it's your team. They've won two consecutive championships. How easy
is it going to be for you to keep your
hands away from it?
Speaker 16 (37:38):
Jud Oh yeah, I wasn't sure, like you know how
that would be when it's sort of guess when you
come to the practices and things like that. But you know,
if I'm really honest, it's something that I guess. I mean,
I care a lot about the RAMS in the organization
and what they've done for me and my family has
(38:00):
been amazing. And Quinn is something someone that you know,
we had his ear marked as somebody that would would
be looking at to take over once I left. And
you know, once once the TALKBX role was, once they
came about, I think the time was right.
Speaker 7 (38:17):
And look, he's he's a he's a great coach.
Speaker 16 (38:22):
He's one, he's young, would be one of the youngest,
if not the youngest that that's been the head coach
of the New zeal And NBA team.
Speaker 7 (38:28):
But bright future. And my role was just to really
help out where I can with him.
Speaker 16 (38:33):
And the fortunate thing and obviously the advantage is he's
been part of the last two championships as a player
and as an assistant coach, so you know, he knows
what's what. He's not trying to reinvent the world, you know,
but he'll find his voice and he'll know, he'll get
comfortable in the shoes and and the rest of us will,
(38:54):
you know, I guess support and jump on board.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
It starts tonight, runs through to mid July. Pack schedule
this ball almost every night throughout the week. Number of
teams engaged there and I suppose we look at the
rise and rise of basketball, this is a part of it.
The way this competition has been run managed. When you
look at the Rapid League, for example, it's really charging forward.
(39:18):
Must be wonderful to be a part of this progression.
Being as here a man who's been involved in basketball
well pretty much your whole life.
Speaker 7 (39:24):
Jud It's it's really cool just to see.
Speaker 16 (39:28):
You know, I think the NBL is really a great
showcase for our basketball in this country and for our.
Speaker 7 (39:38):
Youngsters that are coming through.
Speaker 16 (39:40):
You know, we've got more and more players and now
playing internationally, which is fantastic.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
And they all started, you know, all our guys started in.
Speaker 16 (39:47):
The New Zealand NBL, So this is a great nurturing
ground and fostering our talent.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
And they'll be superstars one day. And you know, we'll
have more and more players that are.
Speaker 16 (40:00):
Playing in the Australian NBL or over in Japan or
internationally Europe or the States.
Speaker 7 (40:05):
So it's an it's in a good show, it's in
good shape.
Speaker 16 (40:09):
We've got I think, you know, this year, I guess
a lot of players, a lot of exciting talent coming through.
Jackson Ball, who's playing for Hawks Bay, you know, just
sixteen years old, made his talkback stab in February. Expect
big things from him. Card of hawpoy up in Todo.
(40:30):
You know, I was gonna say Phil James, but his
son Hayden Jones Nelson and then you know our own
here at Canabrey with Thomas Isaac as well. So yeah,
really those are names of the of the future and
but I expect big things from those guys in Many Moore.
Speaker 8 (40:48):
Forget the refs.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Call, you make the call. On Sports Talk on your
home of Sports News Talks. For more from Sports Talk,
listen live to News Talks it'd be from seven pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!