July 24, 2025 • 42 mins
D'Arcy Waldegrave returned to wrap another day of sports news! Highlights for tonight include:
NZ Rugby head of participation in community rugby on Sport NZ getting rid of its transgender inclusion guidelines,
Hockey NZ acting CEO Ken Maplesden on why the Men's Black Sticks won't be playing in the Pro League - even though they've qualified for it.
Talkback on the decision by Hockey NZ.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Waldegrave
from News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bang.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Start the shof with a bang. Right done that now,
job complete. I'm going home and it's entirely up to you.
I was waiting for that good evening. Seven minutes after
seven and Thursday night, twenty fourth of July twenty twenty five.
My name's Darcy waldergame. Hi, how ay? What's up for
the sport from now through eight o'clock to night? A
(00:57):
couple of subjects for you of an evening. Toward the
end of the program, Kim Mableston joins versus the acting
CEO of Hockey Inzeed to explain what's happened with the
Blacksticks while they're not going to the Pro League. In fact,
it's the fourth time they went yeahah, not interested. What
are they doing? Why are they doing it? How are
(01:19):
they going to replace that experience when it comes to
pinnacle events i e. The World Cup in the Olympic Games.
This is entirely fair. This is all down to the
fact that they lost one point seven million dollars in
the last funding round or not. All of those things
will be revealed with King of Mableston who joins us.
So i'd say around about cord date give or take up. First,
(01:40):
we're going to be talking though to in z are
Mike Hester. He's the head of participation Community Rugby looking
at the guidelines for transgender players which have been dropped,
kecked by sport in Z the want of the government.
No longer are they in place. In fact, those guidelines
have been removed from the website. So how does this
(02:03):
affect Community Rugby, if indeed does has it been blown
up out of all proportion? How are they dealing with
the transgender issue if you will, because it's still relatively new,
right what ten years if that? So we'll talk to
Mike Hester about that. Then will take your cause with
thoughts as well on eight hundred eighty ten eighty three
(02:24):
phone number nationwide. You can text nineteen nine two z
B z B standard text charge will apply. We'll talk
about the ousting of the guidelines and whether it was
actually necessary to have the guidelines in the first place,
whether it was required to remove the headlines, sorry, the
(02:46):
full stop the guidelines full stop or they just let
it roll. But we'll have your thoughts on that apart
do we hear from Mike Hester. But before we do that,
a let's do what we always do. Come on, let's go,
let's go. And in sports today was co change to
where Gibs has complete faith in Dulnois Kane's alesniak lurking
(03:11):
under the most flamboyant lid in the NRL as a
classy footballer who will shine in time like a weller.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Commercial defensively, Like I said, there's a lot of things
inside him weren't going the way we would have liked.
But I think if you look at his form just
before he got injured the last time, he was starting
her easiest way back in and started to hit the
best player he can be and each week he'll build that.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Texas coach Donald Wilkins could probably do without the distraction
of the eligibility issue ahead of her team's amsed Premiership
final class versus the Mystics coming up on Sunday, but
she shrugged it off. It is what it is, right Donna.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
It's also going into contracting times for next year, so
players and because Australian sides are already contacting some players,
they need to know so they need to know where
they stand. So I guess, no time's a good time
when you're getting too the business.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
In Jerome, Pampalone has no qualms and taking on the
unbeaten Venice Well and Pudulius Alberta Ramirez. He gets the
trade blows with him in a WBA Light heavyweight eliminator
in Libya.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
In Libya, the Southpore, slick, aggressive, explosive in the top
five and all the government bodies. So the top world
of planet. But this is the sort of fights I want.
I need to beat these guys to show that I
belong at the top.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
A Kiwi versus of Venezuelan in Africa. Oh fine, they
spent on a time fighting in Saudi Arabia, so and.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Go for it.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Luck and Kiwi. Mixed martial artist Michelle Montague is ahead
of her own timeline. Her coach Carlo Mister explains Carlos
excuse me. Mister explains that the UFC elevation was an
unexpected leap forward for the Florida based weapon, but knowing.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That was a strong possibility, we were originally aiming for
Contender series, so that was the plan for this year anyway,
but seems just fast tracked there.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And that's Sport Today talk about today's big issue of
twelve minutes after seven here on Sports Thought. We're joined
by Mike cairst and did ours, head of participation at
a community rugby at that level. Welcome to the show. Mike,
great to have you. On the guidelines for transgender players
in sport across the country have been essentially thrown out
(05:25):
by sportings it at the behest of the government. How
does this affect rugby at a community level.
Speaker 8 (05:31):
So transgender participation has been on our sort of agenda
for a few years now to provide a bit of clarity,
and we have direction from World Rugby about what that
looks like in the poor performance and pathway space and
so we need sort of acknowledge and respect the position
there around how transgender people participate. But what's been left
for countries like Design to resolve in the community spaces?
Speaker 7 (05:54):
What does that look like.
Speaker 8 (05:55):
In terms of participation approach? And so that's what we've
been working through over the last couple of years, guided
to buy our values but also guided by the voices
of our community. We've done a one wave of consultation
and we've got a second one to go over the
next u of six months or so.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Is it helpful do you think negative or positive? Maybe
around the government pulling these guidelines, taking them off the
website and saying individual sports can do it themselves. Is
this a good move for you or not?
Speaker 7 (06:23):
So?
Speaker 8 (06:24):
As a general rule, Sporting Z provides lots of really
helpful advice and guidance to the sector around a whole
range of things, and so certainly the advice that they
provided in this area, like others, has been really helpful.
It's been informative, It's highlighted things that we need to
think about are particularly in different segments youth, for example,
in juniors is where you know there's really complex things
(06:45):
happening in that space. So any advice or guidance that
they can give is really helpful. They obviously can't answer everything,
and they also have to respect what's asked of them
to support. So the short answer is that we were
a resource sport and we have the capability and capacity
to make these decisions that will go forward that might
(07:05):
actually more challenging for others perhaps who don't necessarily have
all those resources.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
They weren't directives, though, were they. It wasn't you must
do this, It was just based on suggestion, So taking
the suggestions away, was there actually even any point in
doing that? If people had their own decisions to make
and they could handle it themselves, surely a bit of
guidance from upstairs the information they've gleaned would not be
a bad thing. I appreciate what they're doing, but to
(07:31):
take all the guidelines away that weren't mandatable guidelines as odd.
Speaker 8 (07:36):
Yeah, and we certainly know from a whole bunch of
different situations that that kind of guidance that comes across
the sector is really helpful. And so I'm sure other
sports would have really appreciated all the sport that it's
been coming down from sportings. Yet a whole bunch of areas,
if we go back to COVID, they provided some hugely
valuable sort of interpretation frameworks of which you know, really
(07:59):
important to rugby but for other smallest sort of nesos,
really really important to help interpret things. So potentially the
be an area where others might feel it more so
than rugby.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So with transgender participation, you said you've made moves in
that space and been doing it for a few years now,
what are the big steps that you've made the decisions
that you've made, what's faced you, what's been in the
way or helped you out with this? What are the
issues around transgender participation in a community level Mike.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
So the first one is is there a need for
a policy in the space because it's easy to regulate everything,
but sometimes regulation doesn't actually help what makes actually life
harder for people on the ground. And we think about
how our community game is delivered. It's delivered by tens
of thousands of volunteers. There's one hundred and twenty hundred
and thirty thousand people sort of accessing the game through
(08:50):
clubs and schools, and so it has to be something
that makes sense and is realistic in terms of what's
important to Rugby. Our values around inclusion, our values around
the game for all shapes and sizes. It's a game
that's played by a wide range of our community European, Maori, Pasifica, Asian.
(09:12):
What are their sort of expectations and values that they
want to see reflected in the game that they play.
And also that important lens of safety in terms of
how do we ensure that across all of all levels
of the game we are providing a safe experience. Albeit
we're a contact sport, and we're also a sport where
physical mismatches is actually part of its essence, being big
(09:35):
as an advantage in some ways and being smaller as
an advantage and others.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So when you look at the brushstrokes for the decisions
made around transgender playing of the game are you're saying
you look to the community, but you've got a number
of different facets of that community. As you mentioned, how
much does their input sway your decisions around what you
do and is it isolated their own community? They can
(10:02):
make their own call at that level. Do they sit
under m Brower from n Z are about what you
think is best for the sport.
Speaker 7 (10:10):
It's usually a mix of both.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
In terms of our job is to provide leadership and
sort of the regulations around how the game should be
administered and delivered across the country, but it also needs
to be valued by communities in a way that meets
their needs, so that the community VOCE is really important.
We've run a series of workshops around what might be
topical for people in the space, and not surprisingly, we've
(10:33):
had really positive and strong engagement from those that are
invested in the girls and women's game around this issue,
and the themes that came through from those workshops where
that they really valued inclusion. They wanted to see people
being included. They didn't like the idea of people being excluded,
but they also wanted it to obviously be a safe environment.
And so they are the themes they came through really strongly.
(10:55):
Themes that weren't so strong with those around sort of
fairness because the reality is in the community space that's
a little bit harder to really deliver and to judge
because it's community sport, you play for a bunch of
different reasons other than necessarily the competition aspect of it.
(11:15):
In terms of the Rainbow community, we've engaged with them
around their views, particularly those that are engaged.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
In the game now or those that want to access
the game.
Speaker 8 (11:24):
What they asked for was we're just real clarity, so
there was no surprises for them about how they could
be involved. And so they're the sort of themes that
are being really strong and the sort of first wave
of consultation which we're now taking back and trying to
work out, right, what is a regulation that services that
all of those needs but also can be delivered on.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
The grass as it.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Is a community game and it's delivered by tens of
thousands of volunteers.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So how many stages does this process go through? You've
completed the first, second, third, fourth, when you're looking at
knowing exactly where they stand or is it like a
moveable feast.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
Ideally would have clarity even if it's in a sort
of trial phase by the start of the community season
next year. Sometimes you don't know, as we do with
for example, law changes, you don't know the true impact
of them until you've trolled them. And so it may
well be that there is some tight implementation of a position,
(12:19):
but it's subject to review, perhaps within twelve months. And
so there's some of the techniques that we have used
in the past across a whole bunch of different areas
to judge whether or not some of the changes that
are being proposed and contemplated are making sense and having
the right impact, or they need to go through a
further review. So that'll shake out as we go through
sort of the next phase of sort of consultation, which
(12:40):
we're hoping to get underway before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And when you've settled on what New Zealand Rugby believe
what they think has said yes, community engagement, but will
you be passing directors across the entire community all over
the place as to what New Zealand Rugby want. Will
you be the overlord's here? Will you say this is
where we stand and you've got to fall into place.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
Yeah, we do that in a number of different areas.
So this would be the same of what we call
domestic safety law variations, which is how the game is
to be delivered. So, for example, children can play in
a mixed gender competition up until the age of thirteen,
and at that point it then gets split into single
(13:23):
sex competitions. And so what we're talking about here is
the definition and eligibility of those gendered competitions and who's
able to access them. So that is normally how the
game is regulated, and then that provides clarity for provincial unions, clubs, schools, administrators,
managers and participants themselves about who has the ability to
(13:46):
access the game. So it would fall into that kind
of category of how we regulate the game.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And mike across the board in general, the response through
the community, the clubs and everybody else. Has there been
much pushedback or is there a sense of general acceptance
in this particular space, and I expect that the amount
of athletes that are actually directly affected by this is
(14:10):
really quite small. The community behind them or against them,
or what's the general feeling.
Speaker 8 (14:16):
My experience over the last five or six years in
the space is that it's been really strong support for
people to be included and welcomed, and it's been very
rare to come up against opposition to it. The point
you make though about the actual number those is quite
relevant as well, and that the number of those that
(14:38):
want to access the game is very small, and so
you usually end up in these very individualized sort of
cases where a lot of people don't really have much
visibility of the issue and the impact across the sort
of the broad broader system, and so we're not talking
large numbers sort of a year on year in which
we get questions about queries around am I able to
(14:59):
access the game? And so as a result, it's probably
not something that that's sort of troubling most clubs and
schools sort of every day week.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
But still very important for n JR that it's addressed,
it's looked after, it's understood.
Speaker 8 (15:12):
Absolutely, because we know that there are views when we
do ask that people want to see a position and
they want to see that it reflects, you know, Rugby's
values and an inclusion certainly is a dominant feature in
that discussion.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
Forget the riff's call.
Speaker 9 (15:25):
You make a call of.
Speaker 10 (15:28):
Eighty sports talk on your home of sports.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
These talks have been.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Seven twenty two. That was Mike hester INSDRS. I had
a participation in at a community level. They are his thoughts.
That's what Jr. Have been doing. Seems to make perfect
sense to me. It's very pragmatic and what they're doing.
And that the comment towards the end that is this
disproportionate argument the amount of people that actually affects on
(15:58):
that level, and it's very important that this issue is
looked at, But is it blown out of all portion
when you look at the amount of people that it
actually does directly effect. I get the feeling it kind
of is. But the main issue here is at Sporting
Z and raining Castle didn't want to come on air
(16:20):
and talk to Heather or myself. We've said it all
in our statement, nothing left to say, which it's kind
of odd because normally Rating is pretty front foot on things.
She likes to talk about it so it's a tricky
old subject, but in essence they've taken the guidelines away.
There are no longer any guidelines but the guidelines. Even
(16:40):
though you know Heather will I argue with me about
the head of plusity about this, and the guidelines may
have been strong suggestions, but they weren't written in stone,
they weren't laws. They went, you must do this for
each individual sport. This is what we believe. To me
that would be too much of an overreach in government,
(17:03):
and individual sports should look after their own sport and
their own communities and how it works for them as
a sport. I think that's important. So the removal of
the guidelines of the beheat of the government strikes me
as a little pointless again bringing this issue into focus
(17:29):
when it probably doesn't need to be, because the individual sports,
as they understand and they learn about the transgender community,
are going to put their rulings in place based on
what's best for their sport, their communities and their athletes,
so what it should be. So it wasn't really enforced
(17:52):
in the first place. It was something that the last
government wanted to put in so they kind of put
it down and they strongly suggested, but they didn't take
any rulings over it. So the next government wants it out,
so they kind of pulled out and they didn't even
need to.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Is this the right move?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I need too much? And I can say this because
I'm part of the media that maybe with this has
come out and we've gone it doesn't really matter, doesn't
really matter. I don't think it does. A huge fan
of the sports looking after their own athletes and their
own communities and their own sport. They understand more than
(18:37):
some politician, some career sports administrator from up above.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
Do you agree with this?
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Is this?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It should be with the sports themselves, right, They should
be making these rulings based on their experiences and their research.
I don't know why they took it off their website
though there were guidelines when I live in there, what's
wrong with a couple of guidelines they look at. You
don't have to take them on board more information? It's good, right, right?
Wahundred eighty ten eighty is seven to twenty five. I'm
(19:10):
a big fan of sports doing what they want to
do based on their research, their communities, their athletes. Are you, oh,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty it's a sports talk on
News Talks b.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
You hear it from the biggest names and sports men.
Speaker 10 (19:33):
Have your say on eight hundred eighty ten eighty sports
Talk on your home of Sports news Talks.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It be we lit lic so I can't remember everything
we said.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
We said it you told.
Speaker 10 (19:48):
Me that you we's our somebody et twenty.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Nine after seven Sports Talk care on News Talks b.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
Re noise was our last name.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Very short statement from Sporting z N. The God Minutes
direct the sport in Zed stop all work on the
Guiding Principles for the Inclusion of transgender people in community
sport and remove them from our website. Last year, Minister
Bishop sport in Z to review the guiding principles and
ensure that they prioritize fairness and safety. Sport in Zed
(20:21):
completed this review and delivered it to Minster Mitchell. After
considering the review, the government has informed sport in z
and that it should not be involved in publishing guidelines
related to gender and sport. As a result of this decision,
the guiding Principles no longer be available and the document
as being removed from the sport d Zed website. Sporting
organizations will continue to make their own decisions on the
(20:43):
participation of the transgends of people in the community sport,
and there are a range of expert organizations that can
provide support. Is that so bad? I don't think the
initial idea behind it, to look at guiding principles was
bad either. I don't see there being a problem with
information and ideas if you don't have to rigidly adhere
(21:08):
to them. It's not a law, it's not written in stone.
It might be an ideological concept. Some people would say
from the left leaning government to do this, okay, fine,
and it may be the same with the right leaning
government say we don't want to bar off this, but
was it a law. No, they were guiding principles, so
you take them as you will. So they've pulled them
(21:32):
now because they don't believe they have any place in
making these decisions for community sport. And I think they're right.
Sure the right decisions will be we come to in
the long run. But I'm being told by David that
I'm very naive, Thank you, David. Guidelines being expectations and
come with unspoken consequences, for example around funding decisions. This
(21:54):
isn't just about inclusion it's also about fairness and safety.
I'm sure you've seen the consequences of the newest college
sport around quality female athletes being defeated by transgender athletic yep, David,
And that's an other stories, and this is a long
and engaged story, but I don't think this is part
of what we're talking about here, the whole fairness and
(22:17):
safety situation, granted, but each individual sport will work that
out to the best of their knowledge and their research
and how it will affect their individual sports, and they
have to be able to do so. It's very rare
that you have a massive issue with a transgender athlete.
(22:38):
The trouble is it's such a divisive situation. If there
is an issue, it's amplified a hundredfold by people who
can't deal with the trans inder community. When really it's
such an infinitesimal amount of problems here that it shouldn't
be case by case basis, and I guidelines, guidelines, and look,
(23:02):
maybe I am naive, David, their consequences around funding decisions
and the like, but I think sports need to do
what they want to do to their best of their
ability and their knowledge, and they should and then government
shouldn't be climbing in telling them what to do or
what not to do. I don't mind that this has disappeared,
(23:23):
but thanks.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
For your.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Thanks for your message, Darcy. You need to watch an
episode of South Park with Randy Savage. It'll some things
up perfectly. Ah Andy, I love a bit of south Park.
Thanks very much for that. And another email or texts
has nothing to do with that said they wrecking Joe
(23:46):
Park is going to be world champion. Alexander Husik is
an equal employment partner. Great to hear you, kindest regards,
Ryan Sparky. Thanks Rain Sparking to try and get Joe.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
On next week.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
It's a bit of a yack about where his career goes.
I think I'm surprised at the lack of engagement here,
which is a good thing. It maybe get into a
place now where people are like, oh, well they'll do
(24:19):
what they want to do in sport and none of
our business.
Speaker 7 (24:22):
So there.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Unless it directly affects you, you're not going to make
a song and dance over this. Maybe that's why the
chief executive Sporting Zeed raining Castle just didn't want to talk.
She just did what she was told to do. By
the government. Thought, that's it, that's enough. I don't want
to go any further. We don't need to shine a
light on this. It is unnecessary. Counter to that, you've
(24:49):
got injured us. And we're going to say something because
we are working in this space and we're doing what
we want to do, and we are examining the outcomes
of our decisions. How it to affix the community, how
to fix the game, how to fix the athletes, transgender athletes,
and they're making progress and that they're doing very well themselves.
(25:10):
They know what they're dealing with. They don't need any
guidelines from up above, positive or negative, and that's the
responsible process for sports. Shortly later on in the program,
we're going to talk a wee bet of hockey. We're
(25:31):
joined by Ken Mapleston, he's the acting CEO of Hockey
and Z. It's fourth time now Hockey and ZE have
said we're not going to go to that top level
of hockey. It's pointless to us that this league is
too expensive, it's too disruptive. So thanks to the invite
(25:53):
Pro League, we're very very good. But just go stand
over there. We don't want to know what are they
going to put in place of it adds us effect
hockey in New Zealand. Well, Ken Mapleston will tell us
all about that shortly, oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty though,
if you've got anything to add on the statement out
of Sport New Zealand who have been directed to stop
(26:18):
or work on the guiding principles for the inclusion of
transgender people in community sport, they're removed from the website
at the behest of the government. Is this a good thing,
a bad thing, or an indifferent thing? Shore on the
face of it means much at all? Twenty five minutes
(26:41):
to eight News Talks eb on Sports Talk eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty or nine to nine to two
Sure Enemy storestalk on news Talks. Thereb a couple of
(27:20):
quick texts for you. Alex said that the issues is
really that the the transgender man transitioning from man to
woman who wins all the top achievement, that's the big problem.
It doesn't go the other way around. So woman who
(27:43):
change their gender to be a man is not an
issue because they're just not dominant physically anyway. It's probably
fair enough. Is there any sport where the physiology physicality
of a natural born woman, a biological woman will be
(28:07):
superior to that of a man. Probably wouldn't go the
other way, would it. And hey, Darsa, I'm not surprised
with the lack of engaging on transdiender. Topic makes political headlines,
but most people are sick of hearing about it. I
agree with you. Sports can make it their own minds up.
Leave it there, Let's go back to talking about actual sport. Marty,
thank you very much. Well explained, and someone agrees with me.
(28:35):
It should be for each sporting code to make their
own call on participation. As you said, guidance is the
proper course for the government. God show as always, Joe,
thanks very much. Right, let's move away from that mat
and we're going to talk about actual sport now. The
hockey story is fascinating. Ken Mapleston joins us now as
(28:55):
we talk about the strange situation around our top hockey
teams not going to the top league because they can't
afford it, they don't want to, it's not convenient entirely. Sure,
let's find out more as we go to the boss man,
the acting head, the acting CEO of Hockey and Z.
(29:15):
His name is Keen Mableson he joins us now, Hi Ken.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
Yeah, hi Darcy, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Very good?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
The crazy old story of hockey and the Pro League continues.
This story keeps development has done for a number of years. Now,
can we cut it back? Long story short to what's
actually happening right now with New Zealand Hockey and the
Pro League.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Unfortunately, we've had to decline the invitation for our men
after the fantastic victory at the Nation's Cup a month
or so ago. Yeah, as part of one of the
things of winning the Nation's Cup as you get an
invitation into the Pro League. But yeah, unfortunately we've had
to decline that back to the the FIH just look
the model of the Pro League and the way it
fits into the calendar and the financial commitment is just
(30:00):
something we can't sustain. So yeah, it's a bit unfortunate.
But look, we're really proud of out boys and the
performance they put on being in Pakistan in the final particularly,
it was amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
This is not unusual. I believe this is the fourth
time I think with both the women's and the men's
Black Sticks that you've said yea, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It is the fourth time over the last I must
be two and a half years or so now that
we've had to decline the invitation of going into Pro League.
Like I say, the model of the pro League, especially
for a country like ours that's geographically Clyde, quite a
long way away from the center of the hockey world,
which is quite often in Europe. Just the financial realities
of that are a challenge, but also the way it
(30:38):
fits into our calendar. Yeah, it's not the best fit
for us. So yeah, we're really confident we can build
a program outside of Pro League that gives our teams
a chance to be successful with the World Cup next
year and importantly the Olympic Games after that.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
So first and foremost, these are your targets. These are
your pinnacle events. It doesn't matter about the Pro League.
As long as you do well at that international level,
there's no problem.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, certainly, like World Cups and Olympic Games are really
what hockey revolves around. You know, you have one of
those every two which is a kind of a nice cadence.
And yeah, obviously used to have comm Mouth games and
hopefully hockey will be back in that mixer as well
in the future. So those are definitely the pinnacle events
for US and something like Pro League and other international
competitions like the Nation's Cup. While we're obviously always striving
(31:22):
to win those and put our best foot forward those,
we're always kind of looking building, I guess, to those
pinnicle events.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
And how we develop our team and our programs around
those to go. Well.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
He took a hell of a hurt with funding was
at one point seven million dollars, so I don't know
how you survived quite frankly. So you haven't got the money,
but you do have the money to go if you want.
But if you spend that money on sending this team
over there to Pro League, nothing else gets paid for.
It's either that or the alternative, which is looking after
hockey in New Zealand. Is it that simplistic, Ken?
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Yeah, I mean at a real high level, it is.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
And I guess with all sports, right, there's never enough
resource to do all of the things that you would
love to do, so you need to prioritize into what
are the other most important things. One thing that we're
really clear on while our black sticks being successful at
those events and you know, having really good international campaigns
each year is really important so as building for the
future and making sure that we're supporting the game to
(32:19):
grow domestically and hence while we're implementing the Premier Hockey
League which will go roll into its next season in
November December this year, and having a really strong domestic
game that then builds into our Black Sticks programs is
really important. So it's prioritizing kind of the whole development
of the system as well as our team's performing well now.
So in that context, the financial constraints of Pro League
(32:41):
are a challenge for us, again in a New Zealand
context at the bottom of the world, and we're going
to use our limited resource and the most efficient and
hopefully the best way to get the outcomes we're after.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Do other nations have the same problems that the tyranny
of distance, the likes of Argentina, Australia, South Africa, Japan
and the like. Do they experience the same issue wanting
to get to that level?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, certainly there have been some other countries that have
had to decline their Pro League invitations. South Africa did
a couple of years ago when they won the first
Nations Cup in France have also done the same and
Obviously France European based a little bit different, but for
South Africa's challenges were very similar to ours in terms
of distance and the amount of resource and funding they had.
You know, there are some countries, as you mentioned a
(33:27):
couple there, Australia and Argentina that are in the Pro
League and have that geographic challenge, but the reality is
they have a much bigger commercial and governmental funding base
then we do know size of their countries and population
and things. So again you know New Zealand, small market,
small pol of funding, getting the resources gether to do
(33:48):
everything is a challenge for a lot of sports, not
just hockey.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
So if you didn't lose the one point seven million
dollars there or thereabouts, you'd be over there playing pro
league right now. It's just money or is the distance
thing still very much in your eyeline when you consider
the stresses on the players travling that played that much hockey.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
The reality is the first time we declined well and
the last time we declined the men's invitation was pre
the funding reduction from HPS and ZED and we still
declined it. So I think that shows that even if
we did if we hadn't had taken that hit, I get.
I guess at the end of the last year, it's
not a given that we would have gone into Pro League.
Like I say, the economics of it are a challenge,
(34:31):
but also just the way it fits into our calendar.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
As you say, the wellbeing of our athletes.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It's a huge load for them because alongside Pro League
there is still you know, those other pinnacle events, there's
qualification events, and you know, increasing numbers of our players
are playing you know, professionally or semi professionally, you know,
in Europe or taking up opportunities through the India Hockey
League and the like. So it's how you get that
(34:57):
balance to again, you know, really perform at those World
Cup and Olympic Games when they come around, and what's
the best fit for our program as well as our
kind of financial reality.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Athlete driven to these decisions, there's a lot of buying.
You guys communicate on a regular basis. It's not about
management or the boardroom telling the athletes what's going on.
I believe that they are right up in play with
all of these decisions and looking toward how they build
this team without being involved in the pro leagues as well.
(35:27):
This is a key to this, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Ken, Yeah, absolutely, And I've got to say our players
and the Hockey Players Association have been fantastic through this,
and actually have been fantastic.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
Over the last period of time on the back of
the funding cut.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
They've shown that they're really really up for the challenge
of performing on the world stage and making sure that
they can go well. The consultation and kind of open
conversations we have with them are really appreciated it.
Speaker 7 (35:55):
Look, they're disappointment and not being pro league because.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
They feel like that they are up for it and
that they can really take on the top teams in
the world. But they also understand the realities of where
we're at as a sport, and again they're strongly focused
on succeeding and doing well at the World Cups next
year in particular.
Speaker 7 (36:13):
So, look, I can't.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Speak more highly of the relationship we've got with the
players and just.
Speaker 7 (36:18):
How motivated they are to do well for the Black Shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So how do you keep up with the Jones? Do
you want to do well on these pinnacle events? Plainly,
you've got a team that can without playing at that level.
What else have you got in place to make sure
that the Black Sticks of men and women can keep
up with the Joneses from one of a better phrase.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, look, I mean it's really about doing it our
way and lots of sports in New Zealand do this.
Speaker 7 (36:44):
So there's a few key planks to it.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
One is having great environments for our players to be
and when they're not part of the Black Sticks.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
So whether that's.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Them playing in Europe, playing in the India Hockey League,
or being based here in New Zealand, having really great
training and competition environments around the country for them, that's
really really critical and that's back to the kind of
us investing in the in the system. The other thing
is us then building a program that when they are
when they do come together as the Black Sticks, they
(37:13):
can get a really good competition. We've got some really
exciting plans underway that can't quite reveal yet, but to
get some really good competition next year as a lead
into the World Cup, and also later in the year
trying to get some Tier one countries down to New
Zealand to play. You know how, both the men's and
women's teams are off to Australia in a few weeks
time to play in the Oceania Cup. Women have a
(37:34):
camp in China prior to that as lead in So
like it's really about, like I say, mixing those two things.
How do we develop great programs when they're together as
the Black Sticks, and how do they have really quality
environments to develop as individual athletes and players when they're
away from you know, being within the hockey New Zealand
camps or tours?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
What are or aren't More's the point the FIH doing here?
You'd suggest they don't care outside of Europe. It's like,
what if our guys do what you want, We've got
our fun and games here. Do they actually give a
rats ass about's going on in New Zealand? Are they
looking to can they change? What is the alternative that
level to engage everybody playing in hockey with the cost
(38:13):
and the timing and everything else. Is there a solution?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Look, it's and to be fair to the FAH, it's
a real challenge, you know, to.
Speaker 7 (38:20):
Put a global league together that.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Suits everyone's different circumstances and where you know, we realize
that and we've communicated with them, you know, really transparently
and have worked closely with them over a period and they,
to their credit, they understand our challenges and where we sit.
So yeah, look, there aren't any kind of easy answers
of golden silver bullets here, I guess, But you know,
(38:44):
what's what we need to do is figure out how
we can do it, do it best for us, and
also keep advocating about what we think is best for
the kind.
Speaker 7 (38:51):
Of global game of hockey.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
But the reality is the Pro League does work for
the countries that are in it, those that have you know,
bigger budgets than we do, and those that are geographically
closer together, particularly.
Speaker 7 (39:01):
In Europe, and and all power to them.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
We need to, like I say, find our way to
make sure we with our programs and be successful at
those pinnaicle events that we're targeting.
Speaker 10 (39:10):
The right call is your call on eight hundred eighty
eighty Sports Talk call on your home of Sports News.
Speaker 7 (39:17):
Talks V.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Seven fifty one. Ken the Mapleston there aging City of
Hockey and z crazy story. Eh, it's got more to come,
I'm sure as well. Got a text here talking about
me not reading the room. Why do you want to
read a room? You read a room, so you're popular
in that room, right, so basically you're just blending of
everybody else. No, no, don't read a room. Have an
(39:41):
opinion to be proud of it.
Speaker 7 (39:43):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
As for the mental annals, call Pete dearie me. It
is eight minutes to eight. There is a sports look
on news talks edb at the eight. It's also gone
(40:09):
news talks ab Hey Sean, how are you you got
a word on the hockey?
Speaker 7 (40:14):
Have you?
Speaker 9 (40:15):
Indeed?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I have.
Speaker 9 (40:16):
I'm not a hockey player, bat I seed, but I
was just driving the cow and I was hearing the
hockey gentleman talking about it. I think the key to
it is to I'd like to see some of the
one of the larger nations like India, where hockey is
ironically is extremely popular. It's only a couple of you know,
ring his blow print and had an IPL or A
or an HPL or hockey professional league in one of
(40:38):
the larger country I think Argentina or some of the
or the other countries mentioned are probably too small. But
the best way to do it if someone could host
a professional league and it's in one location, or maybe
the team could base themselves in Europe. But you know,
like as a long term because I think if we
don't be part of if we're not part of the
professional leagues, the other countries will get away in US.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Well, that's why it's fascinated what Kem was saying about
how they're actually going to rework that narrative back here
in New Zealand in order to keep up with the Joneses.
And the proof of that puling will be when we
eat the Olympic Games. Has it actually is it possible
to do that? We will find out. I mean, do
you think do you think it is Can they get
(41:19):
some number eight wire and formulate a way to actually
be the best in the world without competing at that level.
Speaker 9 (41:25):
I personally think it's very difficult because with international competition,
professional leagues, they used to blood and new players fifteen sixteen,
seventeen and you get a chance to scalp them no
matter what sport it is. And personally hockey I think
like like netball ETCA, it isn't like America's Cup we
need to spend hundreds of millions on boats. You can
fund a professional team relatively, you know, at a lower
(41:46):
cost here low cost window. And I think the legisa
this country is sport. I think hockey we have. I'm
not a hockey player. When we have a pedigree, it's
something worth funding. It isn't the America's Cup. You are
you don't have to have that sort of money. I
think through do a number eight wye solution. It's very,
very difficult because we are separated from a professional league.
We don't watching the professional players, we are interacting with them.
(42:09):
We don't know what new kit needs to come through.
I think being excluded or not participating, it's a hard
ask hockey to going. Sport is getting a high tier
in the Olympics as well as the Commwealth Games, and
it goes for a number of other sports. Our runners extra.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Fund on the film, so we're going to go because
I can't control the timing on this. Thanks very much
for your call. It's interesting that Keen said, look, they
had plenty of funding before they got cut and they
still didn't want to go to the pro league. More
than just money and it'spittle such things for your time.
Thanks everyone for listening them. Darcy Water gave out of here.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Waldegrave
from News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bang.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Start the shof with a bang. Right done that now,
job complete. I'm going home and it's entirely up to you.
I was waiting for that good evening. Seven minutes after
seven and Thursday night, twenty fourth of July twenty twenty five.
My name's Darcy waldergame. Hi, how ay? What's up for
the sport from now through eight o'clock to night? A
(00:57):
couple of subjects for you of an evening. Toward the
end of the program, Kim Mableston joins versus the acting
CEO of Hockey Inzeed to explain what's happened with the
Blacksticks while they're not going to the Pro League. In fact,
it's the fourth time they went yeahah, not interested. What
are they doing? Why are they doing it? How are
(01:19):
they going to replace that experience when it comes to
pinnacle events i e. The World Cup in the Olympic Games.
This is entirely fair. This is all down to the
fact that they lost one point seven million dollars in
the last funding round or not. All of those things
will be revealed with King of Mableston who joins us.
So i'd say around about cord date give or take up. First,
(01:40):
we're going to be talking though to in z are
Mike Hester. He's the head of participation Community Rugby looking
at the guidelines for transgender players which have been dropped,
kecked by sport in Z the want of the government.
No longer are they in place. In fact, those guidelines
have been removed from the website. So how does this
(02:03):
affect Community Rugby, if indeed does has it been blown
up out of all proportion? How are they dealing with
the transgender issue if you will, because it's still relatively new,
right what ten years if that? So we'll talk to
Mike Hester about that. Then will take your cause with
thoughts as well on eight hundred eighty ten eighty three
(02:24):
phone number nationwide. You can text nineteen nine two z
B z B standard text charge will apply. We'll talk
about the ousting of the guidelines and whether it was
actually necessary to have the guidelines in the first place,
whether it was required to remove the headlines, sorry, the
(02:46):
full stop the guidelines full stop or they just let
it roll. But we'll have your thoughts on that apart
do we hear from Mike Hester. But before we do that,
a let's do what we always do. Come on, let's go,
let's go. And in sports today was co change to
where Gibs has complete faith in Dulnois Kane's alesniak lurking
(03:11):
under the most flamboyant lid in the NRL as a
classy footballer who will shine in time like a weller.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Commercial defensively, Like I said, there's a lot of things
inside him weren't going the way we would have liked.
But I think if you look at his form just
before he got injured the last time, he was starting
her easiest way back in and started to hit the
best player he can be and each week he'll build that.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Texas coach Donald Wilkins could probably do without the distraction
of the eligibility issue ahead of her team's amsed Premiership
final class versus the Mystics coming up on Sunday, but
she shrugged it off. It is what it is, right Donna.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
It's also going into contracting times for next year, so
players and because Australian sides are already contacting some players,
they need to know so they need to know where
they stand. So I guess, no time's a good time
when you're getting too the business.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
In Jerome, Pampalone has no qualms and taking on the
unbeaten Venice Well and Pudulius Alberta Ramirez. He gets the
trade blows with him in a WBA Light heavyweight eliminator
in Libya.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
In Libya, the Southpore, slick, aggressive, explosive in the top
five and all the government bodies. So the top world
of planet. But this is the sort of fights I want.
I need to beat these guys to show that I
belong at the top.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
A Kiwi versus of Venezuelan in Africa. Oh fine, they
spent on a time fighting in Saudi Arabia, so and.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Go for it.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Luck and Kiwi. Mixed martial artist Michelle Montague is ahead
of her own timeline. Her coach Carlo Mister explains Carlos
excuse me. Mister explains that the UFC elevation was an
unexpected leap forward for the Florida based weapon, but knowing.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That was a strong possibility, we were originally aiming for
Contender series, so that was the plan for this year anyway,
but seems just fast tracked there.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And that's Sport Today talk about today's big issue of
twelve minutes after seven here on Sports Thought. We're joined
by Mike cairst and did ours, head of participation at
a community rugby at that level. Welcome to the show. Mike,
great to have you. On the guidelines for transgender players
in sport across the country have been essentially thrown out
(05:25):
by sportings it at the behest of the government. How
does this affect rugby at a community level.
Speaker 8 (05:31):
So transgender participation has been on our sort of agenda
for a few years now to provide a bit of clarity,
and we have direction from World Rugby about what that
looks like in the poor performance and pathway space and
so we need sort of acknowledge and respect the position
there around how transgender people participate. But what's been left
for countries like Design to resolve in the community spaces?
Speaker 7 (05:54):
What does that look like.
Speaker 8 (05:55):
In terms of participation approach? And so that's what we've
been working through over the last couple of years, guided
to buy our values but also guided by the voices
of our community. We've done a one wave of consultation
and we've got a second one to go over the
next u of six months or so.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Is it helpful do you think negative or positive? Maybe
around the government pulling these guidelines, taking them off the
website and saying individual sports can do it themselves. Is
this a good move for you or not?
Speaker 7 (06:23):
So?
Speaker 8 (06:24):
As a general rule, Sporting Z provides lots of really
helpful advice and guidance to the sector around a whole
range of things, and so certainly the advice that they
provided in this area, like others, has been really helpful.
It's been informative, It's highlighted things that we need to
think about are particularly in different segments youth, for example,
in juniors is where you know there's really complex things
(06:45):
happening in that space. So any advice or guidance that
they can give is really helpful. They obviously can't answer everything,
and they also have to respect what's asked of them
to support. So the short answer is that we were
a resource sport and we have the capability and capacity
to make these decisions that will go forward that might
(07:05):
actually more challenging for others perhaps who don't necessarily have
all those resources.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
They weren't directives, though, were they. It wasn't you must
do this, It was just based on suggestion, So taking
the suggestions away, was there actually even any point in
doing that? If people had their own decisions to make
and they could handle it themselves, surely a bit of
guidance from upstairs the information they've gleaned would not be
a bad thing. I appreciate what they're doing, but to
(07:31):
take all the guidelines away that weren't mandatable guidelines as odd.
Speaker 8 (07:36):
Yeah, and we certainly know from a whole bunch of
different situations that that kind of guidance that comes across
the sector is really helpful. And so I'm sure other
sports would have really appreciated all the sport that it's
been coming down from sportings. Yet a whole bunch of areas,
if we go back to COVID, they provided some hugely
valuable sort of interpretation frameworks of which you know, really
(07:59):
important to rugby but for other smallest sort of nesos,
really really important to help interpret things. So potentially the
be an area where others might feel it more so
than rugby.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So with transgender participation, you said you've made moves in
that space and been doing it for a few years now,
what are the big steps that you've made the decisions
that you've made, what's faced you, what's been in the
way or helped you out with this? What are the
issues around transgender participation in a community level Mike.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
So the first one is is there a need for
a policy in the space because it's easy to regulate everything,
but sometimes regulation doesn't actually help what makes actually life
harder for people on the ground. And we think about
how our community game is delivered. It's delivered by tens
of thousands of volunteers. There's one hundred and twenty hundred
and thirty thousand people sort of accessing the game through
(08:50):
clubs and schools, and so it has to be something
that makes sense and is realistic in terms of what's
important to Rugby. Our values around inclusion, our values around
the game for all shapes and sizes. It's a game
that's played by a wide range of our community European, Maori, Pasifica, Asian.
(09:12):
What are their sort of expectations and values that they
want to see reflected in the game that they play.
And also that important lens of safety in terms of
how do we ensure that across all of all levels
of the game we are providing a safe experience. Albeit
we're a contact sport, and we're also a sport where
physical mismatches is actually part of its essence, being big
(09:35):
as an advantage in some ways and being smaller as
an advantage and others.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So when you look at the brushstrokes for the decisions
made around transgender playing of the game are you're saying
you look to the community, but you've got a number
of different facets of that community. As you mentioned, how
much does their input sway your decisions around what you
do and is it isolated their own community? They can
(10:02):
make their own call at that level. Do they sit
under m Brower from n Z are about what you
think is best for the sport.
Speaker 7 (10:10):
It's usually a mix of both.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
In terms of our job is to provide leadership and
sort of the regulations around how the game should be
administered and delivered across the country, but it also needs
to be valued by communities in a way that meets
their needs, so that the community VOCE is really important.
We've run a series of workshops around what might be
topical for people in the space, and not surprisingly, we've
(10:33):
had really positive and strong engagement from those that are
invested in the girls and women's game around this issue,
and the themes that came through from those workshops where
that they really valued inclusion. They wanted to see people
being included. They didn't like the idea of people being excluded,
but they also wanted it to obviously be a safe environment.
And so they are the themes they came through really strongly.
(10:55):
Themes that weren't so strong with those around sort of
fairness because the reality is in the community space that's
a little bit harder to really deliver and to judge
because it's community sport, you play for a bunch of
different reasons other than necessarily the competition aspect of it.
(11:15):
In terms of the Rainbow community, we've engaged with them
around their views, particularly those that are engaged.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
In the game now or those that want to access
the game.
Speaker 8 (11:24):
What they asked for was we're just real clarity, so
there was no surprises for them about how they could
be involved. And so they're the sort of themes that
are being really strong and the sort of first wave
of consultation which we're now taking back and trying to
work out, right, what is a regulation that services that
all of those needs but also can be delivered on.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
The grass as it.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Is a community game and it's delivered by tens of
thousands of volunteers.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So how many stages does this process go through? You've
completed the first, second, third, fourth, when you're looking at
knowing exactly where they stand or is it like a
moveable feast.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
Ideally would have clarity even if it's in a sort
of trial phase by the start of the community season
next year. Sometimes you don't know, as we do with
for example, law changes, you don't know the true impact
of them until you've trolled them. And so it may
well be that there is some tight implementation of a position,
(12:19):
but it's subject to review, perhaps within twelve months. And
so there's some of the techniques that we have used
in the past across a whole bunch of different areas
to judge whether or not some of the changes that
are being proposed and contemplated are making sense and having
the right impact, or they need to go through a
further review. So that'll shake out as we go through
sort of the next phase of sort of consultation, which
(12:40):
we're hoping to get underway before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And when you've settled on what New Zealand Rugby believe
what they think has said yes, community engagement, but will
you be passing directors across the entire community all over
the place as to what New Zealand Rugby want. Will
you be the overlord's here? Will you say this is
where we stand and you've got to fall into place.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
Yeah, we do that in a number of different areas.
So this would be the same of what we call
domestic safety law variations, which is how the game is
to be delivered. So, for example, children can play in
a mixed gender competition up until the age of thirteen,
and at that point it then gets split into single
(13:23):
sex competitions. And so what we're talking about here is
the definition and eligibility of those gendered competitions and who's
able to access them. So that is normally how the
game is regulated, and then that provides clarity for provincial unions, clubs, schools, administrators,
managers and participants themselves about who has the ability to
(13:46):
access the game. So it would fall into that kind
of category of how we regulate the game.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And mike across the board in general, the response through
the community, the clubs and everybody else. Has there been
much pushedback or is there a sense of general acceptance
in this particular space, and I expect that the amount
of athletes that are actually directly affected by this is
(14:10):
really quite small. The community behind them or against them,
or what's the general feeling.
Speaker 8 (14:16):
My experience over the last five or six years in
the space is that it's been really strong support for
people to be included and welcomed, and it's been very
rare to come up against opposition to it. The point
you make though about the actual number those is quite
relevant as well, and that the number of those that
(14:38):
want to access the game is very small, and so
you usually end up in these very individualized sort of
cases where a lot of people don't really have much
visibility of the issue and the impact across the sort
of the broad broader system, and so we're not talking
large numbers sort of a year on year in which
we get questions about queries around am I able to
(14:59):
access the game? And so as a result, it's probably
not something that that's sort of troubling most clubs and
schools sort of every day week.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
But still very important for n JR that it's addressed,
it's looked after, it's understood.
Speaker 8 (15:12):
Absolutely, because we know that there are views when we
do ask that people want to see a position and
they want to see that it reflects, you know, Rugby's
values and an inclusion certainly is a dominant feature in
that discussion.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
Forget the riff's call.
Speaker 9 (15:25):
You make a call of.
Speaker 10 (15:28):
Eighty sports talk on your home of sports.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
These talks have been.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Seven twenty two. That was Mike hester INSDRS. I had
a participation in at a community level. They are his thoughts.
That's what Jr. Have been doing. Seems to make perfect
sense to me. It's very pragmatic and what they're doing.
And that the comment towards the end that is this
disproportionate argument the amount of people that actually affects on
(15:58):
that level, and it's very important that this issue is
looked at, But is it blown out of all portion
when you look at the amount of people that it
actually does directly effect. I get the feeling it kind
of is. But the main issue here is at Sporting
Z and raining Castle didn't want to come on air
(16:20):
and talk to Heather or myself. We've said it all
in our statement, nothing left to say, which it's kind
of odd because normally Rating is pretty front foot on things.
She likes to talk about it so it's a tricky
old subject, but in essence they've taken the guidelines away.
There are no longer any guidelines but the guidelines. Even
(16:40):
though you know Heather will I argue with me about
the head of plusity about this, and the guidelines may
have been strong suggestions, but they weren't written in stone,
they weren't laws. They went, you must do this for
each individual sport. This is what we believe. To me
that would be too much of an overreach in government,
(17:03):
and individual sports should look after their own sport and
their own communities and how it works for them as
a sport. I think that's important. So the removal of
the guidelines of the beheat of the government strikes me
as a little pointless again bringing this issue into focus
(17:29):
when it probably doesn't need to be, because the individual sports,
as they understand and they learn about the transgender community,
are going to put their rulings in place based on
what's best for their sport, their communities and their athletes,
so what it should be. So it wasn't really enforced
(17:52):
in the first place. It was something that the last
government wanted to put in so they kind of put
it down and they strongly suggested, but they didn't take
any rulings over it. So the next government wants it out,
so they kind of pulled out and they didn't even
need to.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Is this the right move?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I need too much? And I can say this because
I'm part of the media that maybe with this has
come out and we've gone it doesn't really matter, doesn't
really matter. I don't think it does. A huge fan
of the sports looking after their own athletes and their
own communities and their own sport. They understand more than
(18:37):
some politician, some career sports administrator from up above.
Speaker 7 (18:45):
Do you agree with this?
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Is this?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It should be with the sports themselves, right, They should
be making these rulings based on their experiences and their research.
I don't know why they took it off their website
though there were guidelines when I live in there, what's
wrong with a couple of guidelines they look at. You
don't have to take them on board more information? It's good, right, right?
Wahundred eighty ten eighty is seven to twenty five. I'm
(19:10):
a big fan of sports doing what they want to
do based on their research, their communities, their athletes. Are you, oh,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty it's a sports talk on
News Talks b.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
You hear it from the biggest names and sports men.
Speaker 10 (19:33):
Have your say on eight hundred eighty ten eighty sports
Talk on your home of Sports news Talks.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It be we lit lic so I can't remember everything
we said.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
We said it you told.
Speaker 10 (19:48):
Me that you we's our somebody et twenty.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Nine after seven Sports Talk care on News Talks b.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
Re noise was our last name.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Very short statement from Sporting z N. The God Minutes
direct the sport in Zed stop all work on the
Guiding Principles for the Inclusion of transgender people in community
sport and remove them from our website. Last year, Minister
Bishop sport in Z to review the guiding principles and
ensure that they prioritize fairness and safety. Sport in Zed
(20:21):
completed this review and delivered it to Minster Mitchell. After
considering the review, the government has informed sport in z
and that it should not be involved in publishing guidelines
related to gender and sport. As a result of this decision,
the guiding Principles no longer be available and the document
as being removed from the sport d Zed website. Sporting
organizations will continue to make their own decisions on the
(20:43):
participation of the transgends of people in the community sport,
and there are a range of expert organizations that can
provide support. Is that so bad? I don't think the
initial idea behind it, to look at guiding principles was
bad either. I don't see there being a problem with
information and ideas if you don't have to rigidly adhere
(21:08):
to them. It's not a law, it's not written in stone.
It might be an ideological concept. Some people would say
from the left leaning government to do this, okay, fine,
and it may be the same with the right leaning
government say we don't want to bar off this, but
was it a law. No, they were guiding principles, so
you take them as you will. So they've pulled them
(21:32):
now because they don't believe they have any place in
making these decisions for community sport. And I think they're right.
Sure the right decisions will be we come to in
the long run. But I'm being told by David that
I'm very naive, Thank you, David. Guidelines being expectations and
come with unspoken consequences, for example around funding decisions. This
(21:54):
isn't just about inclusion it's also about fairness and safety.
I'm sure you've seen the consequences of the newest college
sport around quality female athletes being defeated by transgender athletic yep, David,
And that's an other stories, and this is a long
and engaged story, but I don't think this is part
of what we're talking about here, the whole fairness and
(22:17):
safety situation, granted, but each individual sport will work that
out to the best of their knowledge and their research
and how it will affect their individual sports, and they
have to be able to do so. It's very rare
that you have a massive issue with a transgender athlete.
(22:38):
The trouble is it's such a divisive situation. If there
is an issue, it's amplified a hundredfold by people who
can't deal with the trans inder community. When really it's
such an infinitesimal amount of problems here that it shouldn't
be case by case basis, and I guidelines, guidelines, and look,
(23:02):
maybe I am naive, David, their consequences around funding decisions
and the like, but I think sports need to do
what they want to do to their best of their
ability and their knowledge, and they should and then government
shouldn't be climbing in telling them what to do or
what not to do. I don't mind that this has disappeared,
(23:23):
but thanks.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
For your.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Thanks for your message, Darcy. You need to watch an
episode of South Park with Randy Savage. It'll some things
up perfectly. Ah Andy, I love a bit of south Park.
Thanks very much for that. And another email or texts
has nothing to do with that said they wrecking Joe
(23:46):
Park is going to be world champion. Alexander Husik is
an equal employment partner. Great to hear you, kindest regards,
Ryan Sparky. Thanks Rain Sparking to try and get Joe.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
On next week.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
It's a bit of a yack about where his career goes.
I think I'm surprised at the lack of engagement here,
which is a good thing. It maybe get into a
place now where people are like, oh, well they'll do
(24:19):
what they want to do in sport and none of
our business.
Speaker 7 (24:22):
So there.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Unless it directly affects you, you're not going to make
a song and dance over this. Maybe that's why the
chief executive Sporting Zeed raining Castle just didn't want to talk.
She just did what she was told to do. By
the government. Thought, that's it, that's enough. I don't want
to go any further. We don't need to shine a
light on this. It is unnecessary. Counter to that, you've
(24:49):
got injured us. And we're going to say something because
we are working in this space and we're doing what
we want to do, and we are examining the outcomes
of our decisions. How it to affix the community, how
to fix the game, how to fix the athletes, transgender athletes,
and they're making progress and that they're doing very well themselves.
(25:10):
They know what they're dealing with. They don't need any
guidelines from up above, positive or negative, and that's the
responsible process for sports. Shortly later on in the program,
we're going to talk a wee bet of hockey. We're
(25:31):
joined by Ken Mapleston, he's the acting CEO of Hockey
and Z. It's fourth time now Hockey and ZE have
said we're not going to go to that top level
of hockey. It's pointless to us that this league is
too expensive, it's too disruptive. So thanks to the invite
(25:53):
Pro League, we're very very good. But just go stand
over there. We don't want to know what are they
going to put in place of it adds us effect
hockey in New Zealand. Well, Ken Mapleston will tell us
all about that shortly, oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty though,
if you've got anything to add on the statement out
of Sport New Zealand who have been directed to stop
(26:18):
or work on the guiding principles for the inclusion of
transgender people in community sport, they're removed from the website
at the behest of the government. Is this a good thing,
a bad thing, or an indifferent thing? Shore on the
face of it means much at all? Twenty five minutes
(26:41):
to eight News Talks eb on Sports Talk eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty or nine to nine to two
Sure Enemy storestalk on news Talks. Thereb a couple of
(27:20):
quick texts for you. Alex said that the issues is
really that the the transgender man transitioning from man to
woman who wins all the top achievement, that's the big problem.
It doesn't go the other way around. So woman who
(27:43):
change their gender to be a man is not an
issue because they're just not dominant physically anyway. It's probably
fair enough. Is there any sport where the physiology physicality
of a natural born woman, a biological woman will be
(28:07):
superior to that of a man. Probably wouldn't go the
other way, would it. And hey, Darsa, I'm not surprised
with the lack of engaging on transdiender. Topic makes political headlines,
but most people are sick of hearing about it. I
agree with you. Sports can make it their own minds up.
Leave it there, Let's go back to talking about actual sport. Marty,
thank you very much. Well explained, and someone agrees with me.
(28:35):
It should be for each sporting code to make their
own call on participation. As you said, guidance is the
proper course for the government. God show as always, Joe,
thanks very much. Right, let's move away from that mat
and we're going to talk about actual sport now. The
hockey story is fascinating. Ken Mapleston joins us now as
(28:55):
we talk about the strange situation around our top hockey
teams not going to the top league because they can't
afford it, they don't want to, it's not convenient entirely. Sure,
let's find out more as we go to the boss man,
the acting head, the acting CEO of Hockey and Z.
(29:15):
His name is Keen Mableson he joins us now, Hi Ken.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
Yeah, hi Darcy, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Very good?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
The crazy old story of hockey and the Pro League continues.
This story keeps development has done for a number of years. Now,
can we cut it back? Long story short to what's
actually happening right now with New Zealand Hockey and the
Pro League.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Unfortunately, we've had to decline the invitation for our men
after the fantastic victory at the Nation's Cup a month
or so ago. Yeah, as part of one of the
things of winning the Nation's Cup as you get an
invitation into the Pro League. But yeah, unfortunately we've had
to decline that back to the the FIH just look
the model of the Pro League and the way it
fits into the calendar and the financial commitment is just
(30:00):
something we can't sustain. So yeah, it's a bit unfortunate.
But look, we're really proud of out boys and the
performance they put on being in Pakistan in the final particularly,
it was amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
This is not unusual. I believe this is the fourth
time I think with both the women's and the men's
Black Sticks that you've said yea, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It is the fourth time over the last I must
be two and a half years or so now that
we've had to decline the invitation of going into Pro League.
Like I say, the model of the pro League, especially
for a country like ours that's geographically Clyde, quite a
long way away from the center of the hockey world,
which is quite often in Europe. Just the financial realities
of that are a challenge, but also the way it
(30:38):
fits into our calendar. Yeah, it's not the best fit
for us. So yeah, we're really confident we can build
a program outside of Pro League that gives our teams
a chance to be successful with the World Cup next
year and importantly the Olympic Games after that.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
So first and foremost, these are your targets. These are
your pinnacle events. It doesn't matter about the Pro League.
As long as you do well at that international level,
there's no problem.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, certainly, like World Cups and Olympic Games are really
what hockey revolves around. You know, you have one of
those every two which is a kind of a nice cadence.
And yeah, obviously used to have comm Mouth games and
hopefully hockey will be back in that mixer as well
in the future. So those are definitely the pinnacle events
for US and something like Pro League and other international
competitions like the Nation's Cup. While we're obviously always striving
(31:22):
to win those and put our best foot forward those,
we're always kind of looking building, I guess, to those
pinnicle events.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
And how we develop our team and our programs around
those to go. Well.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
He took a hell of a hurt with funding was
at one point seven million dollars, so I don't know
how you survived quite frankly. So you haven't got the money,
but you do have the money to go if you want.
But if you spend that money on sending this team
over there to Pro League, nothing else gets paid for.
It's either that or the alternative, which is looking after
hockey in New Zealand. Is it that simplistic, Ken?
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Yeah, I mean at a real high level, it is.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
And I guess with all sports, right, there's never enough
resource to do all of the things that you would
love to do, so you need to prioritize into what
are the other most important things. One thing that we're
really clear on while our black sticks being successful at
those events and you know, having really good international campaigns
each year is really important so as building for the
future and making sure that we're supporting the game to
(32:19):
grow domestically and hence while we're implementing the Premier Hockey
League which will go roll into its next season in
November December this year, and having a really strong domestic
game that then builds into our Black Sticks programs is
really important. So it's prioritizing kind of the whole development
of the system as well as our team's performing well now.
So in that context, the financial constraints of Pro League
(32:41):
are a challenge for us, again in a New Zealand
context at the bottom of the world, and we're going
to use our limited resource and the most efficient and
hopefully the best way to get the outcomes we're after.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Do other nations have the same problems that the tyranny
of distance, the likes of Argentina, Australia, South Africa, Japan
and the like. Do they experience the same issue wanting
to get to that level?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, certainly there have been some other countries that have
had to decline their Pro League invitations. South Africa did
a couple of years ago when they won the first
Nations Cup in France have also done the same and
Obviously France European based a little bit different, but for
South Africa's challenges were very similar to ours in terms
of distance and the amount of resource and funding they had.
You know, there are some countries, as you mentioned a
(33:27):
couple there, Australia and Argentina that are in the Pro
League and have that geographic challenge, but the reality is
they have a much bigger commercial and governmental funding base
then we do know size of their countries and population
and things. So again you know New Zealand, small market,
small pol of funding, getting the resources gether to do
(33:48):
everything is a challenge for a lot of sports, not
just hockey.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
So if you didn't lose the one point seven million
dollars there or thereabouts, you'd be over there playing pro
league right now. It's just money or is the distance
thing still very much in your eyeline when you consider
the stresses on the players travling that played that much hockey.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
The reality is the first time we declined well and
the last time we declined the men's invitation was pre
the funding reduction from HPS and ZED and we still
declined it. So I think that shows that even if
we did if we hadn't had taken that hit, I get.
I guess at the end of the last year, it's
not a given that we would have gone into Pro League.
Like I say, the economics of it are a challenge,
(34:31):
but also just the way it fits into our calendar.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
As you say, the wellbeing of our athletes.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It's a huge load for them because alongside Pro League
there is still you know, those other pinnacle events, there's
qualification events, and you know, increasing numbers of our players
are playing you know, professionally or semi professionally, you know,
in Europe or taking up opportunities through the India Hockey
League and the like. So it's how you get that
(34:57):
balance to again, you know, really perform at those World
Cup and Olympic Games when they come around, and what's
the best fit for our program as well as our
kind of financial reality.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Athlete driven to these decisions, there's a lot of buying.
You guys communicate on a regular basis. It's not about
management or the boardroom telling the athletes what's going on.
I believe that they are right up in play with
all of these decisions and looking toward how they build
this team without being involved in the pro leagues as well.
(35:27):
This is a key to this, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Ken, Yeah, absolutely, And I've got to say our players
and the Hockey Players Association have been fantastic through this,
and actually have been fantastic.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
Over the last period of time on the back of
the funding cut.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
They've shown that they're really really up for the challenge
of performing on the world stage and making sure that
they can go well. The consultation and kind of open
conversations we have with them are really appreciated it.
Speaker 7 (35:55):
Look, they're disappointment and not being pro league because.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
They feel like that they are up for it and
that they can really take on the top teams in
the world. But they also understand the realities of where
we're at as a sport, and again they're strongly focused
on succeeding and doing well at the World Cups next
year in particular.
Speaker 7 (36:13):
So, look, I can't.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Speak more highly of the relationship we've got with the
players and just.
Speaker 7 (36:18):
How motivated they are to do well for the Black Shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So how do you keep up with the Jones? Do
you want to do well on these pinnacle events? Plainly,
you've got a team that can without playing at that level.
What else have you got in place to make sure
that the Black Sticks of men and women can keep
up with the Joneses from one of a better phrase.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, look, I mean it's really about doing it our
way and lots of sports in New Zealand do this.
Speaker 7 (36:44):
So there's a few key planks to it.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
One is having great environments for our players to be
and when they're not part of the Black Sticks.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
So whether that's.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Them playing in Europe, playing in the India Hockey League,
or being based here in New Zealand, having really great
training and competition environments around the country for them, that's
really really critical and that's back to the kind of
us investing in the in the system. The other thing
is us then building a program that when they are
when they do come together as the Black Sticks, they
(37:13):
can get a really good competition. We've got some really
exciting plans underway that can't quite reveal yet, but to
get some really good competition next year as a lead
into the World Cup, and also later in the year
trying to get some Tier one countries down to New
Zealand to play. You know how, both the men's and
women's teams are off to Australia in a few weeks
time to play in the Oceania Cup. Women have a
(37:34):
camp in China prior to that as lead in So
like it's really about, like I say, mixing those two things.
How do we develop great programs when they're together as
the Black Sticks, and how do they have really quality
environments to develop as individual athletes and players when they're
away from you know, being within the hockey New Zealand
camps or tours?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
What are or aren't More's the point the FIH doing here?
You'd suggest they don't care outside of Europe. It's like,
what if our guys do what you want, We've got
our fun and games here. Do they actually give a
rats ass about's going on in New Zealand? Are they
looking to can they change? What is the alternative that
level to engage everybody playing in hockey with the cost
(38:13):
and the timing and everything else. Is there a solution?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Look, it's and to be fair to the FAH, it's
a real challenge, you know, to.
Speaker 7 (38:20):
Put a global league together that.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Suits everyone's different circumstances and where you know, we realize
that and we've communicated with them, you know, really transparently
and have worked closely with them over a period and they,
to their credit, they understand our challenges and where we sit.
So yeah, look, there aren't any kind of easy answers
of golden silver bullets here, I guess, But you know,
(38:44):
what's what we need to do is figure out how
we can do it, do it best for us, and
also keep advocating about what we think is best for
the kind.
Speaker 7 (38:51):
Of global game of hockey.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
But the reality is the Pro League does work for
the countries that are in it, those that have you know,
bigger budgets than we do, and those that are geographically
closer together, particularly.
Speaker 7 (39:01):
In Europe, and and all power to them.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
We need to, like I say, find our way to
make sure we with our programs and be successful at
those pinnaicle events that we're targeting.
Speaker 10 (39:10):
The right call is your call on eight hundred eighty
eighty Sports Talk call on your home of Sports News.
Speaker 7 (39:17):
Talks V.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Seven fifty one. Ken the Mapleston there aging City of
Hockey and z crazy story. Eh, it's got more to come,
I'm sure as well. Got a text here talking about
me not reading the room. Why do you want to
read a room? You read a room, so you're popular
in that room, right, so basically you're just blending of
everybody else. No, no, don't read a room. Have an
(39:41):
opinion to be proud of it.
Speaker 7 (39:43):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
As for the mental annals, call Pete dearie me. It
is eight minutes to eight. There is a sports look
on news talks edb at the eight. It's also gone
(40:09):
news talks ab Hey Sean, how are you you got
a word on the hockey?
Speaker 7 (40:14):
Have you?
Speaker 9 (40:15):
Indeed?
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I have.
Speaker 9 (40:16):
I'm not a hockey player, bat I seed, but I
was just driving the cow and I was hearing the
hockey gentleman talking about it. I think the key to
it is to I'd like to see some of the
one of the larger nations like India, where hockey is
ironically is extremely popular. It's only a couple of you know,
ring his blow print and had an IPL or A
or an HPL or hockey professional league in one of
(40:38):
the larger country I think Argentina or some of the
or the other countries mentioned are probably too small. But
the best way to do it if someone could host
a professional league and it's in one location, or maybe
the team could base themselves in Europe. But you know,
like as a long term because I think if we
don't be part of if we're not part of the
professional leagues, the other countries will get away in US.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Well, that's why it's fascinated what Kem was saying about
how they're actually going to rework that narrative back here
in New Zealand in order to keep up with the Joneses.
And the proof of that puling will be when we
eat the Olympic Games. Has it actually is it possible
to do that? We will find out. I mean, do
you think do you think it is Can they get
(41:19):
some number eight wire and formulate a way to actually
be the best in the world without competing at that level.
Speaker 9 (41:25):
I personally think it's very difficult because with international competition,
professional leagues, they used to blood and new players fifteen sixteen,
seventeen and you get a chance to scalp them no
matter what sport it is. And personally hockey I think
like like netball ETCA, it isn't like America's Cup we
need to spend hundreds of millions on boats. You can
fund a professional team relatively, you know, at a lower
(41:46):
cost here low cost window. And I think the legisa
this country is sport. I think hockey we have. I'm
not a hockey player. When we have a pedigree, it's
something worth funding. It isn't the America's Cup. You are
you don't have to have that sort of money. I
think through do a number eight wye solution. It's very,
very difficult because we are separated from a professional league.
We don't watching the professional players, we are interacting with them.
(42:09):
We don't know what new kit needs to come through.
I think being excluded or not participating, it's a hard
ask hockey to going. Sport is getting a high tier
in the Olympics as well as the Commwealth Games, and
it goes for a number of other sports. Our runners extra.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Fund on the film, so we're going to go because
I can't control the timing on this. Thanks very much
for your call. It's interesting that Keen said, look, they
had plenty of funding before they got cut and they
still didn't want to go to the pro league. More
than just money and it'spittle such things for your time.
Thanks everyone for listening them. Darcy Water gave out of here.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
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