Gregor Paul: NZ Herald rugby analyst on the All Blacks school's record defeat and the questions it raises over rugby pathways

Over the weekend, the New Zealand schools' side suffered a record breaking loss to the Australia U18's falling 81-48.

It is a loss that has sparked conversation around rugby pathways in New Zealand and whether that is having a ripple effect on the All Blacks as test sides around the world begin to close the gap on the Kiwi side

New Zealand Herald rugby analyst Gregor Paul wrote a piece on this issue, and spoke with D'Arcy to discuss. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
You may have seen in Jillan Schools got hammered by
the OSSI eighteens eighty one forty eight. It was pretty
close at halftime and then the Aussies just ran away.
This used to be what New Zealand did everybody else.
So there's a conversation around pathways in New Zealand and

(00:34):
whether that's actually having a ripple on effect to all
black test sides because the rest of the world closing
the gap on well, what used to be an unstoppable
force in world rugby, the black jersey. That's the blackness
of the jealousy that sends the cells through our heart.
That's what Bill McClaren used to say the old Scottish

(00:54):
commentator oh legendary line. Today New Zealand Herald rubian Greg
Paul he wrote a piece discussing the lost and how
still raising more questions around New Zealand's rugby development system
and you can join us now to talk about this
as well as his thoughts on what could be one

(01:14):
of the causes of New Zealand rugby's fall from grace
because they're on the way down right, It's not sugarcoat it.
Let's get amongst it with my favorite celt.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Good Evening, Gregor Good Evening, Darcy.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Interesting article, as they always are in their Heralds, around
the absolute flogging that the Basic schoolboys took at the
hands of Australian So no one saw that coming, but
maybe we should have done.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
Look, I've been running a theory for a while now,
concern I suppose about the nature of schools rugby, some
of the attitudes, some of the cultures that exist. I'm
not punching it down against the kids here, I'm having
a crack at a lot of the adults who are
in the system. The way that that system has been professionalized.

(02:05):
It's been overplayed internally, not in all schools, but clearly
in a few first fifteen has become overly prominent as
part of a school sporting program. As far as I
can gather, we move the kids into kind of what
we call elite pathways far too young. We get them
to specialize in sport in one sport, far too young.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
We have them, you know, on TV, which I don't
agree with.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
We have media coverage in the Herald which I, and
I know I get into trouble for this from my
own bosses, but I don't agree with that either. I
think we're putting too much pressure on kids who should
just be going to school and playing sport as part
of a holistic education, not looking at it as an
extinct or a possibility of becoming a professional player, because one,

(02:55):
I don't think it sets those who are good enough
up to be professional players, and two, we are talking
about a tiny, tiny percentage of kids playing at first
fifteen or who will go on to be professional rugby players,
so you can't cater for the one percent or the
less than one percent.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
And the system, I think the results are.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
Starting to show, not just the one of the national
schools team the other day that you mentioned in your intro,
but they got beaten by Australia last year and if
you look at age grade history, that's a little uncommon.
New Zealand tend to win at that age group, and
they have previously also one at the under twenty age group,
which they are no longer doing anywhere near as consistently

(03:39):
as they used to either.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Ins it are what are they doing in this area?
If anything? Can they are?

Speaker 3 (03:46):
They?

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Three monkey. Are they ostriching? Are they in the back
just slowly, I suppose, fanning the flames of this? Do
they see this as being a positive for their game?

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, it's tricky here because you rugby don't have jurisdiction
or their schools, and quite rightly so too. You know,
schools of schools. Kids go to school to get an education,
they don't go to rugby. But you know, the way
things are manifesting, we have this kind of professionalization within
the schools and New Zealand rugby is it's kind of
powerless to dictate to schools how they set themselves up,

(04:20):
what they do. Now usually that's a that's a kind
of tense but highly workable relationship between ends are and
the leading rugby schools because ns that are quite happy
with the way that these kids are being developed.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Usually you know, they're doing weights programs from an earlier age.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
They're you know, they're learning rugby, if you like, in
a way that they didn't used to. And I guess
that the belief has been that what gets at the
other end is pretty useful for New Zealand rugby. For
guys who are ready to go into provincial academies, or
even super rugby academies, and that they're kind of ahead

(04:56):
of their their age in terms of their training ability,
their their physique, their conditioning, they're.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
All sort of ahead of themselves.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
So New Zealand Rugby is quite happy, but it doesn't
actually have a lot of control over that.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
It tried earlier this year to.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
Disband the New Zealand Schools team and turn it into
an under eighteen team so that it could incorporate kids
who are under eighteen but not at school, or who
are part of a you know, who are in a
remote part of the country. They're not part of the
first fifteen that can play, and they're playing for a
club in the miss. So so that's about the only
level of influence New Zealand Rugby has had. Do they

(05:34):
want more probably with the like a stronger and better
relationship with the schools.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yes, Will it ever happen? Probably not.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
You look at the physical development, skills development of some
of these young men, and they are young, that's all
well and good, but I'd suggest that mentally and socially
they're probably not quite as developed. So maybe going through
and there are plenty of all blacks who didn't go
through those systems that have actually lived a life. And
I think one of they say, better people make better

(06:04):
all blacks, and is that the case? Seeing the evidence
of that now? I mean they talk about the proof
of the pudding and the eating. How's it tasting so far?
Because you look at the results of the black Ferns
and the All Blacks and these other teams. It's not
looking great at the moment, is it?

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Grigor No, it's not.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
And I mean I guess you would say that the
current teams, you know, they're probably they were at school
on average whatever, you know, five, ten, twelve years ago.
So I mean, are they the products of the current environment.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Possibly a little bit. But I think the.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Current environment is just integrating more and more at the
age grade level. I mean, if you look back, one
of the things I think as misunderstood is you look
at some of the greatest players that New Zealand has produced,
and a common trait among them is that they played
a whole variety of sports right up until leaving school,

(06:56):
you know. I mean, Dan Carter was a fantastic cricketer apparently.
I mean, even Richie McCaw who couldn't catch, was apparently
not a bad cricketer either, you know, but he played
he didn't play rugby all year round when he was
at school.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
He had other sports. I mean, look at Riko youani.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
I know he's not in great form at the moment,
but you know he's clearly a talent. He got to
the All Blacks when he was nineteen, but he was
playing basketball, He was playing water polo or other sports
right up until the indie year thirteen at Auckland Grammar.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
Now that is one of the.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Missing links I feel is that you know, these professionalized
programs just basically stay to the kids.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
You have to commit to rugby.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
We don't have time for anything else during the summer,
we're going to do conditioning work and schools work, so
you can't play cricket or whatever. So that traditional pathway
a lot. You know, a lot of guys played rugby
and cricket. You know, that was almost kind of combo
that you know many in New Zealand's top rugby players
would have enjoyed as kids. Well that's all gone on,

(07:57):
this early specialization, despite the fact rugby has said, oh,
we don't want to do that, there's a lot of
evidence that's a bad idea.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
It seems that it's.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
Still happens, and that kind of lack of exposure to sport.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
And finally, Gregor Paulin, as always thanks for your opinion
and your expertise. You look at a wider scale, I
wonder if other nations are taking this same route of
over schooling or overtraining, if you will. But in ten
is that reflected now in results? I don't know what
they're doing over there. I don't know if you do.
But when you look at the results, we don't have

(08:32):
a World Cup that's been well publicized recent times. Across
the board, we have no trophies, So really simple question
to end. You can attach to it if you want,
But are we falling behind it or the rest of
the world catching up? Do you think, because we're definitely
back in the pack and I think we've had evidence
of that for the last couple of years.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Probably a little bit.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
But I think a lot of countries, if we think
South Africa, England, Ireland, France at the moment are and
maybe Australia, maybe Argentina are kind of consistently at usual
Land's level.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Now on the international stage.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
You know, probably if the All Blacks play well, they
beat most of those teams, but there's not much in
it the way that they used to be. I think
there is a regression. There has been a regression in
New Zealand, and I think it starts in that Pathway program.
I think schools rugby is a kind of toxic viper's
nest of adult ambition and ego getting tangled up. And

(09:31):
I wouldn't say destroying the joy of playing at that level,
but it's clear to me that probably other countries are
not investing in professionalization of schools rugby the way that
New Zealanders. I think that the emphasis, certainly in the
UK where I'm from, is that, you know, rugby is
still predominantly played by fee paying schools. It's a sport

(09:54):
that's predominantly played their parents having been to one.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Of these schools.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
And it was a while ago now, but rugby was
just part of it. It wasn't everything, you know, because
parents are paying a lot of money, big fees. You know,
they want you to play sport, but they don't want
you to become a boothhead rugby player, if you know
what I mean. Like being a professional player is not
something that is necessarily high on the priority list. For
a lot of kids in the UK going to private schools,

(10:20):
a lot of them will be going on to be doctors, lawyers, bankers, accountants, whatever.
Rugby is just a bit of fun along the way,
and if any of them do turn out to be
good enough, then they'll they'll probably you know, they will
then follow their own individual pathway into wherever they go.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
But the system won't.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Be set up to cater for that one kid who
turns out to be good enough. The system is just
all about providing a healthy, enjoyable environment for kids to
play a game and enjoy.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
It and be the best that they can be at it.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
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