October 23, 2025 • 10 mins
Big changes to the All Blacks coaching staff were announced today, with it being confirmed that Jason Holland will be stepping aside as an assistant coach of the team at the end of the northern tour this year.
NZ Herald rugby expert Gregor Paul explained further.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, but news dropped to just after two o'clock this
afternoon that Jason Hollands, the All Blacks assistant coach who
largely looks after strip plays and the back line, will
leave at the end of his contract, which finishes at
the end of the year. No word as to whether
a replacement will be sorts. Scott Robertson fairly noncommittal on
(00:34):
all of that today, But to dig into that a
little bit deeper. New Zealand Herald rugby writer, columnist, journalist, etc.
Gregor Paul joins us on the program. Gregor, thanks for
your time and joining.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Us my pleasure earlier.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, we're both around the team a fair bit. Did
this come as a surprise to.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
You the timing, yes, are we bert? The actual decision
not so much. No, I think it's fairly obvious that
by results, by performance or inconsistency of performance, I should say,
of lack of attacking cohesion and credibility that the All
(01:14):
Blacks have put together in the last two years that
are not quite right. You know, whether that's a coaching issue,
a player issue, game plan issue, whatever it might be,
we all know that there's a little bit of disunity
to some extent, or an inability for that team to
play the way that the some of their talented parts
(01:36):
would suggest that they could. The coaching structure looks a
little bit convoluted to me. I don't know if it's
got too many people, but the division of labor has
struck me as a bit odd. That you have Scott
Hansen operating as sort of both attack and defense and
then he passes on his plan for the week to
(01:58):
an attack coach and a defense coach, and Jason Holland
is responsible for strike plays and something else. And I
say that with a bit of of a facicious tone, Iliot,
because I think that's kind of the problem is. It's
been a bit messy. It's been a bit difficult to
ascertain who does what. And I think it's been apparent
for a week while that they would need to get
(02:18):
to the point of making some change, either forced or
voluntary or otherwise. And here we go, they've made that change, well, force,
voluntary or otherwise.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What's your scenes? Is this a mutual decision or was
he jump before? Do he jump before he pushed?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think it was about as mutual as these things
can be. You know, we're talking high performance environments here,
where you know everyone's going to spin a narrative to
suit there, to suit their agenda. The one that came
out on the press release would suggest, you know, it's
all happy, happy families. He decided he didn't want to
stay on beyond his existing contract, which is about to expire,
(02:57):
and I think there's an element of truth to that.
I think he he was on a two year deal.
He rationalized at some point this year as I understand
that he wasn't enjoying it as much, he wasn't making
the impact that he felt he could, and that he
wasn't necessarily convinced that seeking an extension on that contract
(03:19):
was something he wanted to do. So he aired that,
I believe, and there wasn't necessarily an awful lot of
energy expressed or expended in trying to dissuade him of
that notion. I think he said, I'm not sure I
want to stay on, and the All Blacks kind of
went okay, and they reached a point where they were
(03:41):
both happy for him to go at the end.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And you know, the old Blacks were quite happy with that.
So it's as much as these things can be. It
is what you would call an amicable agreement, and it
leaves the door open now for Scott Robertson head coach,
to spend a bit of time once this Grand Slam
Tour is over to kind of reconfigure and work out,
(04:04):
you know, what a replacement strategy might look like, if
there is one, and how he might want to reconfigure
his coaching setup.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, there's this opportunity to restructure the coaching team. That
doesn't sound like anyone else would potentially be leaving, but
they may bring someone else in.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well, Look, I mean a wee bit will depend on results, Elliott.
I think over the next four weeks, because you sometimes
you don't get the luxury of being the master of
your own fate when you're the old Blecks coach. As
Ian Foster discovered a couple of years back, Sometimes results
reach a point where your employer intervenes and says, you know,
you might not want to make change, but we feel
(04:41):
that you now have to. So I think we're in
an intriguing spot here because the Old Blacks results and
performances to date under Robertson have been a wee bit underwhelming.
They're not discernibly better than they were under Ian Foster
the way everyone imagined it would be if the Old
Blecks come home. And you know, I don't think that
these things are prescribed behind the scenes the way that
(05:04):
we think that they are. But I think anyone would
with you know, with a reasonable assessment of what the
Old Blacks ambition and what New Zealand Rugby's ambition is
for the Old Blacks if they come home, you know,
having lost to Ireland and England, say, two entirely conceivable outcomes,
by the way, two good teams capable of being the
Old Lecks. I will get accused of ridiculous bias if
(05:27):
I say that, but thank you for pointing out that
we are indeed Well's great entertainers and a superb team
on the rise. Thank you. But I think if we
get to that point, that'll be a fourth defeat for
the Old Lecks. And I'm not preempting this. I'm just
saying we all know that there's not a lot of
leeway here for results to go against this team to
the point where, you know, another year with four defeats
(05:49):
on the board will challenge New Zealand Rugby to make
some big decisions about, you know, what they want to
do with their all black coaching group in its entirety.
You know, maybe they want to make wholesale changes at
that point, and maybe they're quite happy to carry on.
It may be that they put some pressure or to
reconfigure a few more assistants. We'll have to wait and see,
(06:10):
but clearly there is pressure building as a result of outcomes.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Two coaches gone in two years. Leo McDonald wins last
year in pretty quick fashion. Now, Jason Holland, what does
that say about? I guess the structure they had in
place in the first place, was it the wrong structure?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, I think I think yeah, clearly. I don't think
there's any doubt about that. What I'm intrigued by is
the best I understand this. This was the coaching team
largely that Raisedly put forward when he applied for the
job in two nineteen. Didn't get it because the board said,
Ian Foster's a more experienced head coach and we think
(06:49):
his wider team is a better one than your one,
so you didn't get the job. Twenty twenty two, they
sogned it out, mug Be signed it out. Razor quietly,
you know, when Ian Foster was under huge pressure not
winning games, and said, look, if you were to take over,
what would you do? And he presented the same team
and they said, look, we don't think there's enough experience
in that team. Could you get Joe Schmitten there for example?
(07:12):
That wasn't a possibility. Joe and didn't want to do that.
So the board then said, look, you're still not ready,
still not giving you the job. Third time round, he
put forward the same team, same structure where he operates.
Razor operates as a sort of culture coach. It doesn't
do a lot of hands on coaching. Put the same
(07:33):
people forward third time Lucky. The board said, yeah, this
time we're prepared to go with it. And I've got
a few reservations about that, because, you know, the questions
that they had and the reasons why they didn't want
Razor and that coaching group in two nineteen or two
twenty two, nothing changed. He didn't fix that problem, He
(07:53):
didn't give them an answer to the questions that they had.
And yet by March twenty twenty three, ends that I
was suddenly willing and able to sign off on this,
and I wonder what level of oversight they had, what
level of scrutiny they put on him, and what pressures
they applied to say, Well, look, actually, you know, I
(08:14):
know you've had this plan in your head for a
long time. We weren't keen on it four years ago
and was still not that keen on it. No, we
think you need to reconfigure and look at a different
group or one or two different guys to bring into
your team. So yeah, to me, there was an evitability
that this was going to have a few casualties along
the way, because no one has ever really been convinced
(08:37):
it was the right coaching group to begin with.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Which speaks to greet up l with us from New
Zealand Herald. If they choose to replace and put another
coach in that environment, they need to get that part
right and does that come from New Zealand Rugfield? Does
that come from Scott Robertson And Joe Schmidt is leaving
Australian Rugby middle of next year, very unlikely that he
would come in. He's coached the All Blacks in that
role before Tony Browns contract. It's not like the coaches
(09:02):
banged the door down to be part of this environment
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, No, the availability of of you know, high quality,
experienced people with international exposure is I mean, it's probably
non existent. I mean there's Jamie Joseph at the Highlanders
as coach Japan, but I think Jamie's aspiration is to
be a head coach, So I don't know if he'd
want to come into the existing team and then as
(09:30):
an attack coach for example, I just don't know. I
don't think he would. Baron Cotter has coached the world's
greatest team Scotland and Fiji. Again though I think Vern's
aspiration might be to be a head coach at the
international level again and or potentially a forwards coach I
think would be his background. So would he be the
(09:51):
right guy? No, And you take those two out and
you are probably not a huge volume of people that
are available. And to your point about who would make
this choice, Well, Razor has got to be comfortable and
it's going to be compatibility that they've got to want
to work with people. They've got to have a chemistry
if you like, a strategic alignment and how they want
(10:12):
the All Blacks to play. So it would really be
Raiser's choice, but I think a choice that should be
made under fairly intense scrutiny from nz a r's high
performance team, asking the right questions to make sure that
the person that Razer wants to bring in, if he
is going to bring someone in, that they're satisfied that
this is going to go the distance and we're not
(10:34):
going to be having me back on your show next
year saying hey, another one's gone.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, but news dropped to just after two o'clock this
afternoon that Jason Hollands, the All Blacks assistant coach who
largely looks after strip plays and the back line, will
leave at the end of his contract, which finishes at
the end of the year. No word as to whether
a replacement will be sorts. Scott Robertson fairly noncommittal on
(00:34):
all of that today, But to dig into that a
little bit deeper. New Zealand Herald rugby writer, columnist, journalist, etc.
Gregor Paul joins us on the program. Gregor, thanks for
your time and joining.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Us my pleasure earlier.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, we're both around the team a fair bit. Did
this come as a surprise to.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
You the timing, yes, are we bert? The actual decision
not so much. No, I think it's fairly obvious that
by results, by performance or inconsistency of performance, I should say,
of lack of attacking cohesion and credibility that the All
(01:14):
Blacks have put together in the last two years that
are not quite right. You know, whether that's a coaching issue,
a player issue, game plan issue, whatever it might be,
we all know that there's a little bit of disunity
to some extent, or an inability for that team to
play the way that the some of their talented parts
(01:36):
would suggest that they could. The coaching structure looks a
little bit convoluted to me. I don't know if it's
got too many people, but the division of labor has
struck me as a bit odd. That you have Scott
Hansen operating as sort of both attack and defense and
then he passes on his plan for the week to
(01:58):
an attack coach and a defense coach, and Jason Holland
is responsible for strike plays and something else. And I
say that with a bit of of a facicious tone, Iliot,
because I think that's kind of the problem is. It's
been a bit messy. It's been a bit difficult to
ascertain who does what. And I think it's been apparent
for a week while that they would need to get
(02:18):
to the point of making some change, either forced or
voluntary or otherwise. And here we go, they've made that change, well, force,
voluntary or otherwise.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What's your scenes? Is this a mutual decision or was
he jump before? Do he jump before he pushed?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think it was about as mutual as these things
can be. You know, we're talking high performance environments here,
where you know everyone's going to spin a narrative to
suit there, to suit their agenda. The one that came
out on the press release would suggest, you know, it's
all happy, happy families. He decided he didn't want to
stay on beyond his existing contract, which is about to expire,
(02:57):
and I think there's an element of truth to that.
I think he he was on a two year deal.
He rationalized at some point this year as I understand
that he wasn't enjoying it as much, he wasn't making
the impact that he felt he could, and that he
wasn't necessarily convinced that seeking an extension on that contract
(03:19):
was something he wanted to do. So he aired that,
I believe, and there wasn't necessarily an awful lot of
energy expressed or expended in trying to dissuade him of
that notion. I think he said, I'm not sure I
want to stay on, and the All Blacks kind of
went okay, and they reached a point where they were
(03:41):
both happy for him to go at the end.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And you know, the old Blacks were quite happy with that.
So it's as much as these things can be. It
is what you would call an amicable agreement, and it
leaves the door open now for Scott Robertson head coach,
to spend a bit of time once this Grand Slam
Tour is over to kind of reconfigure and work out,
(04:04):
you know, what a replacement strategy might look like, if
there is one, and how he might want to reconfigure
his coaching setup.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, there's this opportunity to restructure the coaching team. That
doesn't sound like anyone else would potentially be leaving, but
they may bring someone else in.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well, Look, I mean a wee bit will depend on results, Elliott.
I think over the next four weeks, because you sometimes
you don't get the luxury of being the master of
your own fate when you're the old Blecks coach. As
Ian Foster discovered a couple of years back, Sometimes results
reach a point where your employer intervenes and says, you know,
you might not want to make change, but we feel
(04:41):
that you now have to. So I think we're in
an intriguing spot here because the Old Blacks results and
performances to date under Robertson have been a wee bit underwhelming.
They're not discernibly better than they were under Ian Foster
the way everyone imagined it would be if the Old
Blecks come home. And you know, I don't think that
these things are prescribed behind the scenes the way that
(05:04):
we think that they are. But I think anyone would
with you know, with a reasonable assessment of what the
Old Blacks ambition and what New Zealand Rugby's ambition is
for the Old Blacks if they come home, you know,
having lost to Ireland and England, say, two entirely conceivable outcomes,
by the way, two good teams capable of being the
Old Lecks. I will get accused of ridiculous bias if
(05:27):
I say that, but thank you for pointing out that
we are indeed Well's great entertainers and a superb team
on the rise. Thank you. But I think if we
get to that point, that'll be a fourth defeat for
the Old Lecks. And I'm not preempting this. I'm just
saying we all know that there's not a lot of
leeway here for results to go against this team to
the point where, you know, another year with four defeats
(05:49):
on the board will challenge New Zealand Rugby to make
some big decisions about, you know, what they want to
do with their all black coaching group in its entirety.
You know, maybe they want to make wholesale changes at
that point, and maybe they're quite happy to carry on.
It may be that they put some pressure or to
reconfigure a few more assistants. We'll have to wait and see,
(06:10):
but clearly there is pressure building as a result of outcomes.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Two coaches gone in two years. Leo McDonald wins last
year in pretty quick fashion. Now, Jason Holland, what does
that say about? I guess the structure they had in
place in the first place, was it the wrong structure?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, I think I think yeah, clearly. I don't think
there's any doubt about that. What I'm intrigued by is
the best I understand this. This was the coaching team
largely that Raisedly put forward when he applied for the
job in two nineteen. Didn't get it because the board said,
Ian Foster's a more experienced head coach and we think
(06:49):
his wider team is a better one than your one,
so you didn't get the job. Twenty twenty two, they
sogned it out, mug Be signed it out. Razor quietly,
you know, when Ian Foster was under huge pressure not
winning games, and said, look, if you were to take over,
what would you do? And he presented the same team
and they said, look, we don't think there's enough experience
in that team. Could you get Joe Schmitten there for example?
(07:12):
That wasn't a possibility. Joe and didn't want to do that.
So the board then said, look, you're still not ready,
still not giving you the job. Third time round, he
put forward the same team, same structure where he operates.
Razor operates as a sort of culture coach. It doesn't
do a lot of hands on coaching. Put the same
(07:33):
people forward third time Lucky. The board said, yeah, this
time we're prepared to go with it. And I've got
a few reservations about that, because, you know, the questions
that they had and the reasons why they didn't want
Razor and that coaching group in two nineteen or two
twenty two, nothing changed. He didn't fix that problem, He
(07:53):
didn't give them an answer to the questions that they had.
And yet by March twenty twenty three, ends that I
was suddenly willing and able to sign off on this,
and I wonder what level of oversight they had, what
level of scrutiny they put on him, and what pressures
they applied to say, Well, look, actually, you know, I
(08:14):
know you've had this plan in your head for a
long time. We weren't keen on it four years ago
and was still not that keen on it. No, we
think you need to reconfigure and look at a different
group or one or two different guys to bring into
your team. So yeah, to me, there was an evitability
that this was going to have a few casualties along
the way, because no one has ever really been convinced
(08:37):
it was the right coaching group to begin with.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Which speaks to greet up l with us from New
Zealand Herald. If they choose to replace and put another
coach in that environment, they need to get that part
right and does that come from New Zealand Rugfield? Does
that come from Scott Robertson And Joe Schmidt is leaving
Australian Rugby middle of next year, very unlikely that he
would come in. He's coached the All Blacks in that
role before Tony Browns contract. It's not like the coaches
(09:02):
banged the door down to be part of this environment
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, No, the availability of of you know, high quality,
experienced people with international exposure is I mean, it's probably
non existent. I mean there's Jamie Joseph at the Highlanders
as coach Japan, but I think Jamie's aspiration is to
be a head coach, So I don't know if he'd
want to come into the existing team and then as
(09:30):
an attack coach for example, I just don't know. I
don't think he would. Baron Cotter has coached the world's
greatest team Scotland and Fiji. Again though I think Vern's
aspiration might be to be a head coach at the
international level again and or potentially a forwards coach I
think would be his background. So would he be the
(09:51):
right guy? No, And you take those two out and
you are probably not a huge volume of people that
are available. And to your point about who would make
this choice, Well, Razor has got to be comfortable and
it's going to be compatibility that they've got to want
to work with people. They've got to have a chemistry
if you like, a strategic alignment and how they want
(10:12):
the All Blacks to play. So it would really be
Raiser's choice, but I think a choice that should be
made under fairly intense scrutiny from nz a r's high
performance team, asking the right questions to make sure that
the person that Razer wants to bring in, if he
is going to bring someone in, that they're satisfied that
this is going to go the distance and we're not
(10:34):
going to be having me back on your show next
year saying hey, another one's gone.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.