August 6, 2025 • 10 mins
Rugby Australia have decided to do away with 'Giteau's Law'.
This rule restricted how many overseas based players could be selected for the Wallabies. This change allows the coaches to select overseas players who spent much of their careers in Australia in the national side going forward.
Hamish McLennan, former chairman of Rugby Australia spoke with D'Arcy Waldegrave to discuss this rule change and the benefits this brings to Australian rugby.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're going to talk about Ossie Rugby with the end
of Ghetto's law. In essence, Peter Horn is the Rugby
Australian Director of High Performance and said, look, Joe, that's
Joe Schmidt Ossie. Joe is there calling.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Oh it hurts.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It's got no impediment to select whoever he wants. It's
always been the case. The getso law is kind of redundant,
he said, so he can do what he wants. Players
feel free to leave and go and play on the
other side of the world. They've got a tendency towards
local players to select. Talk about Thinnians and Wedges. This
is it to talk more about that. We're joined by
(00:56):
former chair of Rugby Australia. He joins us on the
blower now to have a wee yack. His name is
Hamish McLennan.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Good eight. Hamish, Hi there mate, how are you? Yeah good?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's been a while since you were the chair of
Rugby Australia. You've walked from that. But man, the last
day or so things have changed somewhat. They've basically dropped,
the guito launched. It's not for purpose anymore. Let's forget
about it. What's your initial reaction to this after going
through these ropes for so.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Long, Well, it's not a new debate.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I think what I would say is that we're always
conscious of our relationship with news dealing and making Super
Rugby as strong as it should be. And so the
negative with it was that you would encourage Australian based
players to go and play overseas. So if you look
at Will Skelton as a great case in point No,
Daddy's world class. He made an impact on the field
(01:54):
on the weekend with the Lions, will that encourage other
players to go overseas? So we've got Tom Pooper's leaving.
He had a great game on the weekend and is
one of our rising stars. So the concern, I guess
if I was in New Zealand, or is it you're
going to lose all this great Aussie talent at a
time where they're getting picked off by the NROL and
(02:15):
getting picked off by.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
The AFL as well.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
So obviously think it's the right thing to do, and
there's no date you want to pick the best team
to be competitive, but even pulling players from overseas created
its own issues. So I remember when we were in
the World Cup during twenty three. You know, there wasn't
the cohesion story that we wanted, even with people like Will,
(02:39):
who you know, I've met and I know and he's
a great guy and an awesome player, but there's nothing
like playing super rugby in and out every week with
your teammates. So you know, I'm sure our are doing
it for all the right reasons, but there are risks.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
What was the pushback in your time around doing this,
because as you see, the conversation's not a new one.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, look, good question.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
We were conscious that if we didn't have a i'll
call it a local competition between Australia and New Zealand,
that you wouldn't get. Firstly, we wouldn't get battle hardened
against the Kiwis, and you always learn from playing with
the Kiwis. And if all of those really good players
then go overseas, then you're left with the shell of
(03:25):
a competition. So you'll have impeccable New Zealand teams and
also rans from Australia And so what does that do
to the media riots, what does that do to the
fan base, because if we're getting flogged by you guys,
then no one I want to watch it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So that was always the dilemma.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
In this case, and you touched on it to start
with that. My biggest problem or concern when I first
read this this morning was that it's the death now
for Super Rugby. It suddenly becomes a new Zealand based competition.
Or is that maybe catastrophize it all too much?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Amish?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
No, I think you're spot on, and look I'm not
that close to it these days, but I look at
it and go that it's the first thing I thought of.
You know, if I was standing the nine network in Australia,
I signed up to a certain criteria and if that's
all changed, I mean, what you don't want a Rossie
teams were even though we went from five to four
(04:25):
teams this year. If they're getting murdered by you guys,
it's not a good thing. And so my FO focus
solely was how do we bring more money into the
game so that we can keep.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
The players in Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
But if you know, if you're offering three hundred and
fifty thousand dollars for you know, a pretty good player
in Australia. But you can go overseas to France and
then you know a million or one point two and
have a great time and still get potentially selected by
the Wallabies. You know, I'd probably take the overseas option.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
The South Africans have been doing this as well, but
in turn that's been difficult for South Africa with players
playing all over the world and playing almost an endless season.
Is that a possibility as well, just over extending players
and leaving them more, laying them to waste.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, you could say that, but they've won the last
two World Cups and then but I worry about the
local ecosystem here. That was always my focus because when
I came in twenty twenty, we had nothing made money
in the bank. We had to borrow forty million to
keep the players paid. And I worry that the center
(05:40):
of gravity, the power just all gravitates north. So then
what happens to Sanza, what happens is what happens to
you guys in New Zealand. And so do you go
back to a more domestic competition. I don't know what's
the role of ra then, So look, I do get
the argument, like I'm not arguing against ra's decision, but
(06:04):
I think it has.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Massive challenges.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's surprised that they've just dropped it like this without
a beating in Perry to say he will take a
look as opposed to just clearing the decks.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I was surprised. But you know, I've
got nothing to do with the administration, so you know,
I'm not part of the conversations. But my whole focus
was build the ecosystem. How do you build the alliance
with New Zealand despite the challenges that you know we had.
I mean, you guys bother us out, I think very
(06:39):
kindly a few years ago. You know, the commitment was
always there. And you see, my fundamental belief is that
Australia has some fantastic players. We've got to do better
at pathways. We've got to do better at recruitment from
the age of fourteen and sort of bring them through
our system. But there are good players, and so look
(06:59):
at Will Skelton, you know, look at Samukarev. Now you've
got Tannyella Tupo going overseas, You've got Tom Hoopy going
over sea.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
There are tons of others.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
You have to Peluto. Who's I mean, ironically you look
at the Scottish side, there are three or four of
them who are full blown foreigners and so I understand
the regulations, but you kind of go, what are you
actually playing against?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Mackhanson.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I wouldn't say it's a fringe player, but he couldn't
really get a regular spot in the Brumbys and now
he's a starting winger for Ireland. So Australia has the
players and so then you've got to ask yourself what
have we done wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And that that was my whole thing.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I failed successfully at being able to change it. But
you go, if you allow people like Macanson and others
to go overseas, so Ozzie who was born in Melbourne
of Ireland descent captaining Scotland.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Well they're their problem here, a number of players turning
up over in Ireland particular and doing very well. What's
the reaction going to be? Do you think from m
Z are there's right in their face now, there's been
so many discussions around alan ability, around players taking a
sabbatical that the list goes on. It's right up in
their face. Now, how do I how do they react
(08:15):
to this?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I reckon Mark Robinson's glad that he's leaving, and I
reckon the ends at our board will do then?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Anna, they wouldn't react in a damn the torpedoes and
have a crack Anyway. I think that what they do
in us in on they protect what they've got and
for good reason will this loosen their grip?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Ah? I I look.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
When brentti Impey was in charge and Super Rugby left,
When South Africa left Super Rugby, I really believe we
lost something and the players say that to this very day.
So we've unpicked what was a pretty meaningful competition. The
Archies were cast adrest, but the Argies they're playing twelve
(09:00):
months a year too, and they've just had to make.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Do with what they've they've got.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So the individual players will benefit from new competitions and
new teams and playing over says, but you go, what
are you left with in Australia? So you'll have shoot
shield and club the hospital carp and club competitions and
then you'll have players that will just be raided.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Who if you're any good to go overseas? So then
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I just post the question what a Super Rugby become
and that's meant to be an economic driver for RA.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's an extremely valid point, mus McLennan, thanks very much
for joining us. And I suppose though, nature has a
way of filling vacuum. So if super rugby collapses, who's
to say something else might not turn up that will
give a shot in the arm to rugby in the
start of the world again, So it's not the end
of the line, but she's pretty grim.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, well said, Well said.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're going to talk about Ossie Rugby with the end
of Ghetto's law. In essence, Peter Horn is the Rugby
Australian Director of High Performance and said, look, Joe, that's
Joe Schmidt Ossie. Joe is there calling.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Oh it hurts.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It's got no impediment to select whoever he wants. It's
always been the case. The getso law is kind of redundant,
he said, so he can do what he wants. Players
feel free to leave and go and play on the
other side of the world. They've got a tendency towards
local players to select. Talk about Thinnians and Wedges. This
is it to talk more about that. We're joined by
(00:56):
former chair of Rugby Australia. He joins us on the
blower now to have a wee yack. His name is
Hamish McLennan.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Good eight. Hamish, Hi there mate, how are you? Yeah good?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's been a while since you were the chair of
Rugby Australia. You've walked from that. But man, the last
day or so things have changed somewhat. They've basically dropped,
the guito launched. It's not for purpose anymore. Let's forget
about it. What's your initial reaction to this after going
through these ropes for so.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Long, Well, it's not a new debate.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I think what I would say is that we're always
conscious of our relationship with news dealing and making Super
Rugby as strong as it should be. And so the
negative with it was that you would encourage Australian based
players to go and play overseas. So if you look
at Will Skelton as a great case in point No,
Daddy's world class. He made an impact on the field
(01:54):
on the weekend with the Lions, will that encourage other
players to go overseas? So we've got Tom Pooper's leaving.
He had a great game on the weekend and is
one of our rising stars. So the concern, I guess
if I was in New Zealand, or is it you're
going to lose all this great Aussie talent at a
time where they're getting picked off by the NROL and
(02:15):
getting picked off by.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
The AFL as well.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
So obviously think it's the right thing to do, and
there's no date you want to pick the best team
to be competitive, but even pulling players from overseas created
its own issues. So I remember when we were in
the World Cup during twenty three. You know, there wasn't
the cohesion story that we wanted, even with people like Will,
(02:39):
who you know, I've met and I know and he's
a great guy and an awesome player, but there's nothing
like playing super rugby in and out every week with
your teammates. So you know, I'm sure our are doing
it for all the right reasons, but there are risks.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
What was the pushback in your time around doing this,
because as you see, the conversation's not a new one.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, look, good question.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
We were conscious that if we didn't have a i'll
call it a local competition between Australia and New Zealand,
that you wouldn't get. Firstly, we wouldn't get battle hardened
against the Kiwis, and you always learn from playing with
the Kiwis. And if all of those really good players
then go overseas, then you're left with the shell of
(03:25):
a competition. So you'll have impeccable New Zealand teams and
also rans from Australia And so what does that do
to the media riots, what does that do to the
fan base, because if we're getting flogged by you guys,
then no one I want to watch it.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So that was always the dilemma.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
In this case, and you touched on it to start
with that. My biggest problem or concern when I first
read this this morning was that it's the death now
for Super Rugby. It suddenly becomes a new Zealand based competition.
Or is that maybe catastrophize it all too much?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Amish?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
No, I think you're spot on, and look I'm not
that close to it these days, but I look at
it and go that it's the first thing I thought of.
You know, if I was standing the nine network in Australia,
I signed up to a certain criteria and if that's
all changed, I mean, what you don't want a Rossie
teams were even though we went from five to four
(04:25):
teams this year. If they're getting murdered by you guys,
it's not a good thing. And so my FO focus
solely was how do we bring more money into the
game so that we can keep.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
The players in Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
But if you know, if you're offering three hundred and
fifty thousand dollars for you know, a pretty good player
in Australia. But you can go overseas to France and
then you know a million or one point two and
have a great time and still get potentially selected by
the Wallabies. You know, I'd probably take the overseas option.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
The South Africans have been doing this as well, but
in turn that's been difficult for South Africa with players
playing all over the world and playing almost an endless season.
Is that a possibility as well, just over extending players
and leaving them more, laying them to waste.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, you could say that, but they've won the last
two World Cups and then but I worry about the
local ecosystem here. That was always my focus because when
I came in twenty twenty, we had nothing made money
in the bank. We had to borrow forty million to
keep the players paid. And I worry that the center
(05:40):
of gravity, the power just all gravitates north. So then
what happens to Sanza, what happens is what happens to
you guys in New Zealand. And so do you go
back to a more domestic competition. I don't know what's
the role of ra then, So look, I do get
the argument, like I'm not arguing against ra's decision, but
(06:04):
I think it has.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Massive challenges.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's surprised that they've just dropped it like this without
a beating in Perry to say he will take a
look as opposed to just clearing the decks.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I was surprised. But you know, I've
got nothing to do with the administration, so you know,
I'm not part of the conversations. But my whole focus
was build the ecosystem. How do you build the alliance
with New Zealand despite the challenges that you know we had.
I mean, you guys bother us out, I think very
(06:39):
kindly a few years ago. You know, the commitment was
always there. And you see, my fundamental belief is that
Australia has some fantastic players. We've got to do better
at pathways. We've got to do better at recruitment from
the age of fourteen and sort of bring them through
our system. But there are good players, and so look
(06:59):
at Will Skelton, you know, look at Samukarev. Now you've
got Tannyella Tupo going overseas, You've got Tom Hoopy going
over sea.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
There are tons of others.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
You have to Peluto. Who's I mean, ironically you look
at the Scottish side, there are three or four of
them who are full blown foreigners and so I understand
the regulations, but you kind of go, what are you
actually playing against?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Mackhanson.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I wouldn't say it's a fringe player, but he couldn't
really get a regular spot in the Brumbys and now
he's a starting winger for Ireland. So Australia has the
players and so then you've got to ask yourself what
have we done wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And that that was my whole thing.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I failed successfully at being able to change it. But
you go, if you allow people like Macanson and others
to go overseas, so Ozzie who was born in Melbourne
of Ireland descent captaining Scotland.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Well they're their problem here, a number of players turning
up over in Ireland particular and doing very well. What's
the reaction going to be? Do you think from m
Z are there's right in their face now, there's been
so many discussions around alan ability, around players taking a
sabbatical that the list goes on. It's right up in
their face. Now, how do I how do they react
(08:15):
to this?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I reckon Mark Robinson's glad that he's leaving, and I
reckon the ends at our board will do then?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Anna, they wouldn't react in a damn the torpedoes and
have a crack Anyway. I think that what they do
in us in on they protect what they've got and
for good reason will this loosen their grip?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Ah? I I look.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
When brentti Impey was in charge and Super Rugby left,
When South Africa left Super Rugby, I really believe we
lost something and the players say that to this very day.
So we've unpicked what was a pretty meaningful competition. The
Archies were cast adrest, but the Argies they're playing twelve
(09:00):
months a year too, and they've just had to make.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Do with what they've they've got.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So the individual players will benefit from new competitions and
new teams and playing over says, but you go, what
are you left with in Australia? So you'll have shoot
shield and club the hospital carp and club competitions and
then you'll have players that will just be raided.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Who if you're any good to go overseas? So then
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I just post the question what a Super Rugby become
and that's meant to be an economic driver for RA.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's an extremely valid point, mus McLennan, thanks very much
for joining us. And I suppose though, nature has a
way of filling vacuum. So if super rugby collapses, who's
to say something else might not turn up that will
give a shot in the arm to rugby in the
start of the world again, So it's not the end
of the line, but she's pretty grim.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, well said, Well said.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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