October 2, 2024 • 8 mins
Experts are divided as to whether Tim Southee made the right call in relinquishing his Black Caps captaincy.
Southee has stepped down as captain following the 2-nil test series drubbing at the hands of Sri Lanka.
Former cricket coach and player John Bracewell joined D'Arcy to discuss.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Doesy Wilder
Grave from News Talks, that'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll right now by Forman is Illing, the cricket coach
for John Bracewell, as we look at captaincy for the
black Caps. John, welcome to the show. Was good to
have you on. You, of course, had a couple of
captains under your watch that were rather handy. I think
it's probably an understatement, I suppose. First question, Tim Sowvey
has turned in his captaincy a good move. Do you
(00:35):
think from Tim after what happened in Trelanker and against Australia.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Well, not necessarily in regards to captaincy. I think Tim,
Tim's a good captain. It's it's more in regards to
the pressure of form I would have thought, and the
honesty of the fact that if you're not necessary, if
you're not necessarily the first on or first few on
the on the team sheet, then are you warranting your place?
(01:01):
Not necessarily your leadership. You've got to be able to
secure you or your skill sets first and foremost, and
then your leadership in and around that. This is a
side that's actually pretty gifted with some senior players came
Williamson still has. You can see that a great influence
(01:22):
on the field often talking to players and groups. You've
got Blundle who's been around quite a while now, who
can actually read the game from behind the stumps. And
then you've got Tom Latham who's captain the game in
one day format and Test matches anyway. So they've got
a lot of leaders to choose from within the side
that allows them that luxury of saying, Okay, our captain
(01:47):
needs to be on the team sheet and we can't
carry anybody if we are to move forward. And they're
getting to that point where on certain conditions and certainly
after a heavy workload, Tim doesn't necessarily secure that number
one spot as a.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Good decision from Tim southey and a betted by a
New Zealand cricket or do you think he's gone? Actually
writing's on the wall. I need to get back to
bowling because that's what I do best. Because I think
John and some players, when they're dealing with two forms
of ability, one to be a captain and one to
be a batsman or a bowler, sometimes it's overwhelming. It's
too much for them.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, it is. I think Tim's in Tim's case
and I've known him for a long long time. He
comes from a big background of team sports. He understands
the dynamics of team's team play. He's come through under
Stephen Fleming initially, Daniel Vittori and Brendan McCullum. He understands
(02:51):
the dynamic in the history of New Zealand cricket and
the needs for a high standard. And I think he
has fallen on his own sword. I don't think he's
been pushed on it. I think he's understood the dynamics.
He knows he's got Matt Henry in the background who
can easily shift into his position and repeat his skill sets,
(03:13):
and therefore he has to get his skill sets back
up to warrant his place within the side.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
You talked about the ability to get your place in
the team. John Bracewell joins us, and that first and
foremost is that a standard for coaches, for cricket teams
in general. That's the first thing they check off.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well, yes, well is it? I think it certainly is.
I think it certainly is in countries that have extreme
amount of depth, where you obviously you decide on the
style in which you want to play and then you
go and find the players that can actually fit that style.
In New Zealand we tend to pack our best players
(03:54):
and then try and adapt our style. Now at the
moment we have a guy like Matt Henry and we
have a huge amount of all round spinners and things
like that. That so we actually are in a position
of slight luxury where we can go hold on what's
our best skill set to play in the subcontinent. And
(04:18):
I think you know picking O'Rourke was it was a
real bonus for us and his skills that came through
the fact that he maintained his pace through two Test matches.
But you could still see Tim's pace dropping off as
the longer a Test match went on and the longer
he has to stay in the field, so he needs
to be rotated anyway. We know that in New Zealand,
(04:44):
certainly in pre Christmas Test matches which we're going to
have against England, he will be a vital component because
he is a very good user of the wicket and
certainly is a very good user of green grass and
a new ball. So he hasn't he hasn't lost his
selectorial rain as such. But it is becoming limited and
(05:09):
the limited limitations are probably asia on really flat wickets.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
John Bracewell. When it comes to selecting a captain, yes,
they're going to get on the team sheet. What position
is a captain best? We normally see someone who stands
in the slips, somebody who bats a bit, as opposed
to someone who bowls and stands out at third man.
Is there an ideal position for a cricket to take
the captaincy.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, well let's just clear that up. I mean symptoms
how he is an outstanding slip fielder, so he does
get involved in the game, and he's normally either standing
at mid off or mid on or short catching position
in front of the wicket or his third slip, so
he's always there or thereabouts around that action. He doesn't
and it's very very seldom does he end up and
go grazing out in the outfield. So his information and
(05:59):
his communication is good and it's always close at hand,
and that's the key. You've got to be in a
position where you are gathering information, sharing information and keeping
your your your your bowlers on on task and making
sure that you are close to knowing when they're at
(06:21):
their peak and when they're starting to decline in a spell,
and when those spells need to be changed in accordance
with the game plan that you've put in place.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Difficulty when it comes to your bowling lineup, when you
are one of the bowlers judging whether you should be
rolling in there or someone else should do it. I
think it's quite fraught, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Well you could say that, but some guys are actually
okay with it. I mean, some guys can can manage it.
You know, Bob Willis, who was just an out and
out fast bowler captain England for quite some time. Both
of them wasn't so good at it, and I think
that's just the pressure of trying to to be what
(07:03):
he was to all things made it very very difficult.
And I think Stugs, I think is an outstanding captain,
but you know he's probably been a little bit lucky
that his knee hasn't allowed him to bowl too much.
And I think who we got from Australia at the moment,
you know, they've dross dropped Smith as the captain and
(07:25):
what's the name of their quick bowler, Cummings Comings, Yeah,
Pat Cummings. I mean he's not doing a bad job.
He's got two cups on the shelf out of three,
so you know he's able to manage his workloads between
himself and three three outstanding quicks and Nathan Lyon. So
(07:46):
he rotates it pretty well and leads that side very
very well. So it can be done. But you have
to have a selfless personality, and.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I think that's been proven, hasn't it with Tim and
the fact that he's gone all on this is not working.
I'm going to give up the captaincy, which must be
a difficult decision to make.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, it is, because it's there. There's that ego thing
as well. You know, I'm a competitor. I don't like
to give things up. I don't want to give it away.
It's an honor all those things. But team first has
been has been a trademark of the site for a
long time now, and and Tim has put team first
(08:28):
and you've got to admire that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Doesy Wilder
Grave from News Talks, that'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll right now by Forman is Illing, the cricket coach
for John Bracewell, as we look at captaincy for the
black Caps. John, welcome to the show. Was good to
have you on. You, of course, had a couple of
captains under your watch that were rather handy. I think
it's probably an understatement, I suppose. First question, Tim Sowvey
has turned in his captaincy a good move. Do you
(00:35):
think from Tim after what happened in Trelanker and against Australia.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Well, not necessarily in regards to captaincy. I think Tim,
Tim's a good captain. It's it's more in regards to
the pressure of form I would have thought, and the
honesty of the fact that if you're not necessary, if
you're not necessarily the first on or first few on
the on the team sheet, then are you warranting your place?
(01:01):
Not necessarily your leadership. You've got to be able to
secure you or your skill sets first and foremost, and
then your leadership in and around that. This is a
side that's actually pretty gifted with some senior players came
Williamson still has. You can see that a great influence
(01:22):
on the field often talking to players and groups. You've
got Blundle who's been around quite a while now, who
can actually read the game from behind the stumps. And
then you've got Tom Latham who's captain the game in
one day format and Test matches anyway. So they've got
a lot of leaders to choose from within the side
that allows them that luxury of saying, Okay, our captain
(01:47):
needs to be on the team sheet and we can't
carry anybody if we are to move forward. And they're
getting to that point where on certain conditions and certainly
after a heavy workload, Tim doesn't necessarily secure that number
one spot as a.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Good decision from Tim southey and a betted by a
New Zealand cricket or do you think he's gone? Actually
writing's on the wall. I need to get back to
bowling because that's what I do best. Because I think
John and some players, when they're dealing with two forms
of ability, one to be a captain and one to
be a batsman or a bowler, sometimes it's overwhelming. It's
too much for them.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, it is. I think Tim's in Tim's case
and I've known him for a long long time. He
comes from a big background of team sports. He understands
the dynamics of team's team play. He's come through under
Stephen Fleming initially, Daniel Vittori and Brendan McCullum. He understands
(02:51):
the dynamic in the history of New Zealand cricket and
the needs for a high standard. And I think he
has fallen on his own sword. I don't think he's
been pushed on it. I think he's understood the dynamics.
He knows he's got Matt Henry in the background who
can easily shift into his position and repeat his skill sets,
(03:13):
and therefore he has to get his skill sets back
up to warrant his place within the side.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
You talked about the ability to get your place in
the team. John Bracewell joins us, and that first and
foremost is that a standard for coaches, for cricket teams
in general. That's the first thing they check off.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well, yes, well is it? I think it certainly is.
I think it certainly is in countries that have extreme
amount of depth, where you obviously you decide on the
style in which you want to play and then you
go and find the players that can actually fit that style.
In New Zealand we tend to pack our best players
(03:54):
and then try and adapt our style. Now at the
moment we have a guy like Matt Henry and we
have a huge amount of all round spinners and things
like that. That so we actually are in a position
of slight luxury where we can go hold on what's
our best skill set to play in the subcontinent. And
(04:18):
I think you know picking O'Rourke was it was a
real bonus for us and his skills that came through
the fact that he maintained his pace through two Test matches.
But you could still see Tim's pace dropping off as
the longer a Test match went on and the longer
he has to stay in the field, so he needs
to be rotated anyway. We know that in New Zealand,
(04:44):
certainly in pre Christmas Test matches which we're going to
have against England, he will be a vital component because
he is a very good user of the wicket and
certainly is a very good user of green grass and
a new ball. So he hasn't he hasn't lost his
selectorial rain as such. But it is becoming limited and
(05:09):
the limited limitations are probably asia on really flat wickets.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
John Bracewell. When it comes to selecting a captain, yes,
they're going to get on the team sheet. What position
is a captain best? We normally see someone who stands
in the slips, somebody who bats a bit, as opposed
to someone who bowls and stands out at third man.
Is there an ideal position for a cricket to take
the captaincy.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, well let's just clear that up. I mean symptoms
how he is an outstanding slip fielder, so he does
get involved in the game, and he's normally either standing
at mid off or mid on or short catching position
in front of the wicket or his third slip, so
he's always there or thereabouts around that action. He doesn't
and it's very very seldom does he end up and
go grazing out in the outfield. So his information and
(05:59):
his communication is good and it's always close at hand,
and that's the key. You've got to be in a
position where you are gathering information, sharing information and keeping
your your your your bowlers on on task and making
sure that you are close to knowing when they're at
(06:21):
their peak and when they're starting to decline in a spell,
and when those spells need to be changed in accordance
with the game plan that you've put in place.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Difficulty when it comes to your bowling lineup, when you
are one of the bowlers judging whether you should be
rolling in there or someone else should do it. I
think it's quite fraught, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Well you could say that, but some guys are actually
okay with it. I mean, some guys can can manage it.
You know, Bob Willis, who was just an out and
out fast bowler captain England for quite some time. Both
of them wasn't so good at it, and I think
that's just the pressure of trying to to be what
(07:03):
he was to all things made it very very difficult.
And I think Stugs, I think is an outstanding captain,
but you know he's probably been a little bit lucky
that his knee hasn't allowed him to bowl too much.
And I think who we got from Australia at the moment,
you know, they've dross dropped Smith as the captain and
(07:25):
what's the name of their quick bowler, Cummings Comings, Yeah,
Pat Cummings. I mean he's not doing a bad job.
He's got two cups on the shelf out of three,
so you know he's able to manage his workloads between
himself and three three outstanding quicks and Nathan Lyon. So
(07:46):
he rotates it pretty well and leads that side very
very well. So it can be done. But you have
to have a selfless personality, and.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I think that's been proven, hasn't it with Tim and
the fact that he's gone all on this is not working.
I'm going to give up the captaincy, which must be
a difficult decision to make.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, it is, because it's there. There's that ego thing
as well. You know, I'm a competitor. I don't like
to give things up. I don't want to give it away.
It's an honor all those things. But team first has
been has been a trademark of the site for a
long time now, and and Tim has put team first
(08:28):
and you've got to admire that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.