November 10, 2025 • 9 mins
The All Blacks are spinning the positives from a near-calamitous third quarter in their win over Scotland.
The squad has moved to London to begin preparations for Sunday morning's test against England at Twickenham.
Rugby commentator Sam Ward joined Piney to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A dazzling performance from Damien McKenzie has been a huge
factor in getting the All Blacks home against Scotland at
murray Field. But not in farrah to surpass to find
a knockup, he said to pick it up in the fence.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
To try to pick it up, damian Nefenzi mackenzie, I
think it got there. He's saying his money a miracle
way and he scored to try.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Damien mckenze, having also impacted the winover Ireland off the
bench last weekend, McKenzie came off the bench early in
the second half yesterday morning to replace Caleb Clark. Late
in the game, a booming fifty to twenty two to
break Scottish hearts of physics, defying try and a late
fifty meter penalty with blood pouring down his face helped
(00:57):
the All Blacks win twenty five seventeen in Edinburgh. Let's
kick this around and bring in longtime rugby coach with
the likes of North Harbor, The New Zealand under twenties
and Tashiba in Japan, also commentator and analyst on television
and radio and currently head of rugby at Silverdale United
Rugby and Sports Club, sam Ward. Sam thanks for joining
us this evening on Sports Talk. Should anything Damien McKenzie
(01:21):
does now surprise us anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Absolutely not. I think what he's done is established himself
as one of the kings of unstructured rugby, which is
exciting because that's generally with tries get scored.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So in that case then is his best use that
impact role. He's becoming an increasingly appealing proposition there coming
off and playing unstructured which obviously happens later in games.
Do you think that's his best use for the All Blacks?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I think the luxury is that he can play in
that front line as sponents at the back, and Boden
can play in the front line with mackenzie at the back,
but they can also I suppose, chop and change a
little bit as well, depending on the game and depending
on where the space is. So for me, I think
especially this weekend again, a team like England, it's going
to be a very high pressure, high attritional game. It's
(02:11):
going to have to the orbit's going to have to
work to break things down and to create that space
and when they do, I think that's when you inject ended.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Do you think he's still an option, a strong option,
given the right opposition and the right set of circumstances
to start test matches.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah? Absolutely. I mean I think if the oblicks identify
opportunities to I suppose get the game unstructured, and I
suppose exploit space early in the game, then by all means,
but if they can't see you, I suppose the gaps
that they might see against other oppositions, then potentially he's
better off the bench.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Playing unstructured rugby is obviously a superpower because it brings
with it a high degree of, you know, of the
opposition not being able to tell you what you're going
to do. Is there a chance of overplaying that sam
being you know, being so unstructured that your own team
don't know what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah. I think it's pretty important to have a structured
ty or unstructured and I know that might make a
few people to go a cross eyed, But so for example,
you look at NPC rugbian, I'd say a good seventy
plus percent of those tries come from unstructured footy, from
turnover plays. As you go higher up the levels, there's
obviously less opportunities and much more pressure. So when it
comes to test match, you have to work really hard
(03:27):
to create unstructured opportunities. So I do think he can
start games. But I think right now the form he's
in and the way that the All Blacks are playing
the game, injecting him later in the piece is proving
obviously really effective.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Can you coach what he does?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I think there might be parameters, and I think that
would be some pretty consistent conversations with the All Blacks
coaching staff. But also I think if you can find
a way to create opportunities for your team to give
him the ball in space, I think he's got a
little bit of magic about him, as we saw with
that try yesterday.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I guess I'm also asking, is you know, can you train
to be like that or is it just something that
comes with instinct, something that is in somebody's DNA. They've
always grown up, They've been the guy who's the best
touch player, for example. You know growing up, is that
something that you can acquire or is it really just intrinsic.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I think he's always had that obviously with his early
highlights that can cross college days, he always had that
flare and that natural speed, the speed of feet and
the strength. And I think I suppose going through NPC,
going through Super Rugby, the amount of scenarios and games
that you play where you get opportunities to utilize those
(04:45):
skill sets is obviously what's pushed them into that All
Blacks frame. And I believe that All Blacks will have
parameters around how they use it, and they'll have an
understanding around when he needs to stick to that structure
and when he needs when he can pull trigger and
light it up.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
How difficult sam is that to set those parameters without
fencing a talent in.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
That's a million dollar question. But to be fair, based
on the form on the weekend, and I suppose the
momentum that the All Blacks enjoyed later in that game,
it sounds like they might have a few things put
together in a few I suppose agreements that have everyone
on the same page, which will be important, especially against.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
England when it comes to the Chiefs. Obviously, he's too
good a player to have coming off the bench. He's
played well, he split his time. Really, he's played a
lot of ten, a lot of fifteen. Where do you
think he is best in a starting role.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
He's got a bit of magic about him in both.
Obviously watching him, watching him come into the line from
fallback is really exciting. But at the same time, if
he's got a big forward pack in front of him
and he can spot opportunities to release that ball out
the back and attack that space with a speed, then
he's very very effective. And I think the way that
(06:04):
the Chiefs play, and I think the way that the
All Blacks play, he's got license to be in the
backfield and in the front field, so obviously close to
the line where he can put people off balance and
break that line. He's obviously very effective. But when his
team has worked through the middle created that space, he's
sharned how electric he is out on the edges as well.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Is the dual playmaker thing, the ten to fifteen duel
playmaker is still a rugby trend or not.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, I believe so. I believe so generally you might
find your midfielders out towards the edge a little bit more.
You've got your tens and your fifteens playing in behind
the forwards. Through the middle of the park. There's a
whole bunch of different attacking shapes that teams are playing
to make sure that they can utilize that space. But
whether teams want to bash down the edges or bash
through the middle, there's a lot of variation. So that's
(06:53):
why he's always touching the ball, because they need him
in and around that ball to make those key decisions.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
When Richie Mwonga comes back next year, can you see
a scenario under which all three of Richie Mwonga, bowt
and and Damien McKenzie are in and all blacks twenty three?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Oh it's a really very good question, Piney, But based
off form and what we know that Richie may can do,
we'd be pretty mad not to do our best to
include all three.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I guess what it would mean would be. So let's
say Richie Wonger plays ten because that's where he plays.
So one of Damien McKenzie or Boat and Barrett would
have to start at fallback and the other one would
have to be in the twenty three. So that's not
beyond the realms of possibility they could do that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
I think that sounds fairly sensible to me. I mean,
Bones obviously played a lot at back and as comfortable,
just like Richie working for them back and interchanging it.
And then as you know, was Damien's foot speed and
defensive efforts. He's very good off the bench. So yeah,
it'll be a balancing act for them next year, but
an exciting one.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
And then how do you start to introduce new guys
like I mean, there's a pretty handy first five the
name of Josh Jacob running around as well, who'll be
at the Chiefs again next year, then off to the Highlanders.
How at the Chiefs in particular, would John Gibbs, the
new coach, be tempted to give Josh Jacob a bunch
of time in the ten jumper and because he knows
that Damian McKenzie will do a job for him at fullback.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
To be honest, I think at that there will be
a lot of conversations between all blacks and super coaches
and they'll be running a similar dynamic to make sure
that they can build that cohesion with both guys playing
frontline and backline.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Intriguing proposition for national coaches, for super coaches, it's an
intriguing conversation for our listeners. Sam, thanks so much for
lending us your analysis. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
No Worris Pony any time.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Good to chatty you, Sam. Thanks indeed, sam Ward, there
are very experienced rugby coach, a student of the game,
analyst of the game, commentator as well on gold Sport,
also on sky Sport with his thoughts there
Speaker 1 (08:58):
For more from sports talk, listen lived to News Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A dazzling performance from Damien McKenzie has been a huge
factor in getting the All Blacks home against Scotland at
murray Field. But not in farrah to surpass to find
a knockup, he said to pick it up in the fence.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
To try to pick it up, damian Nefenzi mackenzie, I
think it got there. He's saying his money a miracle
way and he scored to try.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Damien mckenze, having also impacted the winover Ireland off the
bench last weekend, McKenzie came off the bench early in
the second half yesterday morning to replace Caleb Clark. Late
in the game, a booming fifty to twenty two to
break Scottish hearts of physics, defying try and a late
fifty meter penalty with blood pouring down his face helped
(00:57):
the All Blacks win twenty five seventeen in Edinburgh. Let's
kick this around and bring in longtime rugby coach with
the likes of North Harbor, The New Zealand under twenties
and Tashiba in Japan, also commentator and analyst on television
and radio and currently head of rugby at Silverdale United
Rugby and Sports Club, sam Ward. Sam thanks for joining
us this evening on Sports Talk. Should anything Damien McKenzie
(01:21):
does now surprise us anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Absolutely not. I think what he's done is established himself
as one of the kings of unstructured rugby, which is
exciting because that's generally with tries get scored.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So in that case then is his best use that
impact role. He's becoming an increasingly appealing proposition there coming
off and playing unstructured which obviously happens later in games.
Do you think that's his best use for the All Blacks?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I think the luxury is that he can play in
that front line as sponents at the back, and Boden
can play in the front line with mackenzie at the back,
but they can also I suppose, chop and change a
little bit as well, depending on the game and depending
on where the space is. So for me, I think
especially this weekend again, a team like England, it's going
to be a very high pressure, high attritional game. It's
(02:11):
going to have to the orbit's going to have to
work to break things down and to create that space
and when they do, I think that's when you inject ended.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Do you think he's still an option, a strong option,
given the right opposition and the right set of circumstances
to start test matches.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah? Absolutely. I mean I think if the oblicks identify
opportunities to I suppose get the game unstructured, and I
suppose exploit space early in the game, then by all means,
but if they can't see you, I suppose the gaps
that they might see against other oppositions, then potentially he's
better off the bench.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Playing unstructured rugby is obviously a superpower because it brings
with it a high degree of, you know, of the
opposition not being able to tell you what you're going
to do. Is there a chance of overplaying that sam
being you know, being so unstructured that your own team
don't know what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah. I think it's pretty important to have a structured
ty or unstructured and I know that might make a
few people to go a cross eyed, But so for example,
you look at NPC rugbian, I'd say a good seventy
plus percent of those tries come from unstructured footy, from
turnover plays. As you go higher up the levels, there's
obviously less opportunities and much more pressure. So when it
comes to test match, you have to work really hard
(03:27):
to create unstructured opportunities. So I do think he can
start games. But I think right now the form he's
in and the way that the All Blacks are playing
the game, injecting him later in the piece is proving
obviously really effective.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Can you coach what he does?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I think there might be parameters, and I think that
would be some pretty consistent conversations with the All Blacks
coaching staff. But also I think if you can find
a way to create opportunities for your team to give
him the ball in space, I think he's got a
little bit of magic about him, as we saw with
that try yesterday.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I guess I'm also asking, is you know, can you train
to be like that or is it just something that
comes with instinct, something that is in somebody's DNA. They've
always grown up, They've been the guy who's the best
touch player, for example. You know growing up, is that
something that you can acquire or is it really just intrinsic.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I think he's always had that obviously with his early
highlights that can cross college days, he always had that
flare and that natural speed, the speed of feet and
the strength. And I think I suppose going through NPC,
going through Super Rugby, the amount of scenarios and games
that you play where you get opportunities to utilize those
(04:45):
skill sets is obviously what's pushed them into that All
Blacks frame. And I believe that All Blacks will have
parameters around how they use it, and they'll have an
understanding around when he needs to stick to that structure
and when he needs when he can pull trigger and
light it up.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
How difficult sam is that to set those parameters without
fencing a talent in.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
That's a million dollar question. But to be fair, based
on the form on the weekend, and I suppose the
momentum that the All Blacks enjoyed later in that game,
it sounds like they might have a few things put
together in a few I suppose agreements that have everyone
on the same page, which will be important, especially against.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
England when it comes to the Chiefs. Obviously, he's too
good a player to have coming off the bench. He's
played well, he split his time. Really, he's played a
lot of ten, a lot of fifteen. Where do you
think he is best in a starting role.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
He's got a bit of magic about him in both.
Obviously watching him, watching him come into the line from
fallback is really exciting. But at the same time, if
he's got a big forward pack in front of him
and he can spot opportunities to release that ball out
the back and attack that space with a speed, then
he's very very effective. And I think the way that
(06:04):
the Chiefs play, and I think the way that the
All Blacks play, he's got license to be in the
backfield and in the front field, so obviously close to
the line where he can put people off balance and
break that line. He's obviously very effective. But when his
team has worked through the middle created that space, he's
sharned how electric he is out on the edges as well.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Is the dual playmaker thing, the ten to fifteen duel
playmaker is still a rugby trend or not.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, I believe so. I believe so generally you might
find your midfielders out towards the edge a little bit more.
You've got your tens and your fifteens playing in behind
the forwards. Through the middle of the park. There's a
whole bunch of different attacking shapes that teams are playing
to make sure that they can utilize that space. But
whether teams want to bash down the edges or bash
through the middle, there's a lot of variation. So that's
(06:53):
why he's always touching the ball, because they need him
in and around that ball to make those key decisions.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
When Richie Mwonga comes back next year, can you see
a scenario under which all three of Richie Mwonga, bowt
and and Damien McKenzie are in and all blacks twenty three?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Oh it's a really very good question, Piney, But based
off form and what we know that Richie may can do,
we'd be pretty mad not to do our best to
include all three.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I guess what it would mean would be. So let's
say Richie Wonger plays ten because that's where he plays.
So one of Damien McKenzie or Boat and Barrett would
have to start at fallback and the other one would
have to be in the twenty three. So that's not
beyond the realms of possibility they could do that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
I think that sounds fairly sensible to me. I mean,
Bones obviously played a lot at back and as comfortable,
just like Richie working for them back and interchanging it.
And then as you know, was Damien's foot speed and
defensive efforts. He's very good off the bench. So yeah,
it'll be a balancing act for them next year, but
an exciting one.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
And then how do you start to introduce new guys
like I mean, there's a pretty handy first five the
name of Josh Jacob running around as well, who'll be
at the Chiefs again next year, then off to the Highlanders.
How at the Chiefs in particular, would John Gibbs, the
new coach, be tempted to give Josh Jacob a bunch
of time in the ten jumper and because he knows
that Damian McKenzie will do a job for him at fullback.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
To be honest, I think at that there will be
a lot of conversations between all blacks and super coaches
and they'll be running a similar dynamic to make sure
that they can build that cohesion with both guys playing
frontline and backline.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Intriguing proposition for national coaches, for super coaches, it's an
intriguing conversation for our listeners. Sam, thanks so much for
lending us your analysis. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
No Worris Pony any time.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Good to chatty you, Sam. Thanks indeed, sam Ward, there
are very experienced rugby coach, a student of the game,
analyst of the game, commentator as well on gold Sport,
also on sky Sport with his thoughts there
Speaker 1 (08:58):
For more from sports talk, listen lived to News Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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