May 2, 2025 • 10 mins
Former New Zealand rugby sevens coach Sir Gordon Tietjens has labelled the new World Series format as confusing and backwards.
Cost-cutting has seen the World Series get chopped into three divisions, with eight teams in the top flight only playing six tournaments before a 12-team finals weekend.
Tietjens says sevens is being pushed to the side.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So I suppose innesially we've got to ask, well, what
do you make of this, this rejeg this re tooling
of World sevens.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I think the question you've got to ask you do
they want sevens to be around any longer?
Speaker 4 (00:24):
You know, that's the big question. I mean, if you
look at it over.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
The time that we're being involved in sevens, I think
we had initially we had twelve tournaments, down to ten,
it's down to eight, and now it's down to six.
And then you had number of sixteen teams, and then
you're down to twelve teams and now they're going down
to eight teams. You just wonder, I mean I thought,
certainly when to sixteen when it became an Olympic sport,
(00:50):
and then when you look at Paris just recently at
the Olympics, that every seat, every in the stadium was
sold out on all the days. Quite incredible, really, you
know the popularity of the sport. But again it's I
just feel it's pushing the players away play fifteens, I
mean for six tournaments a year.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Crazy, what's triggered this I suppose collapse.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Maybe that's not the correct word, but it sounds like
you're thinking it's on the on the way out.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Where was this come from?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
This mismanagement of the global series? Is a local issue?
Is a rugby issue? Based on the various unions that
look after it around the game? Where's it started?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You know?
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I just think it's the cost of financial is no stability.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean, I know a lot of the countries that
were were hosting the sevens tournaments weren't making any money.
So therefore they lose interest when you're losing a lot
of money, and perhaps they need more support from World Rugby.
You know, that's all they can really say. I mean,
that's that's where it starts from. Because I then look
at the Wellington tournament over a number of years.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I mean, the popularity was incredible.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Really just getting a ticket to that to the stadium
for the sevens and Wellington was pretty tough, you know,
and then a green we've lost that.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We don't have a tournament.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Now and when you look at our national team, we're
battling also because we don't have tournaments. There's no national tournament,
there's no provincial tournaments, there's very few club tournaments and
there's some youth tournaments and that's about it. So sevens
really has lost its popularity for someone none reason, and
I just put it down to pastures dollar and you said.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And you mentioned, you touched on this hasn't almost been
a bony contention between sevens and fifteen. It looks like
the National Union definitely leaning into the fifteen to site
at the expense of seven. So when it looks at pathways,
it's kind of hard to see one pathway lead into
another because they're very separate routes.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well exactly, and I think with a lot of the
players as well, they were actually pushing towards fifteens now
because the sevens are The tournaments now are certainly disappearing.
There's six tournaments now. I think for next year it
might be eight six, one or the other. But they've
reduced it to eight teams, and you know, you've got
three tiers, you've got a second tier that's going to
(03:08):
be playing to try and make the top tier. But
the interest has actually lost. We were playing for a
World Series once and it was over let's say twelve tournaments,
and you came out of it and you knew who
the winner was. Now over this just recent tournament. You know,
you've you've had a World Series.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
But it's still not quite over.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It is over this weekend in Los Angeles, but I
think the winner was I think Agentina. But then this
tournament this weekend apparently in LA is going to tell
you who the real champion is. So I'm really lost
when it comes to and it's just quite confusing.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, the simplicity is what you're after, because I'm the
same as you. Goodon. I sat and looked it. I
had to read it three or four times to work
out what was going on. I mean, that's not encouraging
anyone to get involved. I don't really understand where it's
coming from. But we can go back to simplicity. It's
just not there.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Well even you remember last year our girls won the
World Series, but then when they went to the last
tournament of the year, it was won by Australian girls,
so they got all the kudos for being the best
sevens team for the year, you know, but it didn't
seem right because the New Zealand girls were basically clearly
above everyone else. But we didn't win that last tournament,
(04:23):
so That's why I'm really conferious.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I just don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What do you think New Zealand rugby can do to
keep sevens afloat besides purely investment in that which playing is?
Is this the major thing here? But do you think
they're engaged nothing the promotion and of the sport and
keeping it a float.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, to be quite honest, I feel if we were,
if New Zia were going to really support the seven's game,
I'm sure we'd still have our own tournament, to be honest,
to be fair, and we don't have that. I mean
where I feel really sorry for the players that are
out there. There are some very very good rugby players.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Yeah that might not.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Necessarily at this moment of time make it and just
super rugby. There may be a good cential player, but
they could be an outstanding sevens player. And I want
to play in the international circuit, in the World Series,
but now it's only going to go for what four
or five months of the year, So what do I
do for the other five or six months. I need
to get involved and be involved in the game of
(05:22):
fifteen So if I want to progress in the game
of rugby, and.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
That's what it's come down.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So, and I really feel for those seven specialists guys
that perhaps you know, he saw a pathway to being
an international football or athlete to be involved in the
sevens program.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
And I want to go to the Olympics, but slowly
that may not be there.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I wonder how long it's got left if it's on
a it's and knees. I wan't say last legs. But
do you think there's a want for it globally to
carry on? Is there in the main rugby playing areas?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We know it's moved out and there's a lot of
areas that aren't traditionally rugby playing areas, rugby playing countries
and they've done really, really well, So you think the
word to be spread. But it's just not gains traction.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Has it no traction at all?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Let's face it down. Share there's no Commos games for
New Zealand. You know sevens is maintained out of the
Commas games.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
So I mean we're going to make the next Comrace games,
don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I know there's certainly going to be the Olympics, But
you know, to be good at this game of sevens,
you've got to be playing sevens and it's all about
conditioning and there's a certainly different conditions you.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Need to get to. But the big key is you've
got to be playing the game to be good at it.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And so what do we do do we just hang
around for every four years and just then put a
team out to go to the Olympics. But then we
may battle because there are some teams out there that
have improved dramatically as we've seen over the last certainly
couple of seasons. You know, if you're look looking at
Spain and things like that coming through and Beaten, you
(06:53):
know all Black sevens team beaten f I mean, there's
a certainly been a change of the guard in the
sevens game and certainly over the last couple of years.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, I think the interesting in New Zealand as well.
You cover them off nicely around the fact is not
here you want to be. You got to see it
and we don't see it. So people can't turn off.
The games are all over the world there at various times,
and I myself, I watch it, turn it up, but
I don't follow it intently.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Feel like I have an attachment because I's not here anymore.
And that's got it that well, that can't.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Help, can it.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
No?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
No, you're quite right, and we've lost a lot of interest,
not only because men's team haven't been performing, but it's
just the just isn't the same.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
I suppose.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Support out there for the game of sevens and and
we're recognizing that certainly at the high level world rugby
is not supporting sevens I believe, perhaps as much as
it could and we're certainly not getting support in the
sevens game here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Healthyon days. Remember way back when when the pathway through
to all black representation and you went through sevens and
you learned so much, you got so fit, and you
really made your mark on the world. That worked well.
I mean you look at the superstars that played under you,
that went on to greater things, and you thought that
that would have carried on that conveyor belt would have
(08:12):
been nice to have carried on. But it's also seized.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, about forty odd players, I think about forty six players.
Then Darcy came came through the sevens teams and you know,
and I look at the current crop they're out there
now with the all blacks, you know, and voting and
Barren came through the scene.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Ardie Saville, Rico Joanni. There's three prominent you know, number one,
all blacks that are.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
In the current team that played sevens and they love
the game and look what it did for them as well.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I'm sure it helped in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Sure did as well. This is not great. They're trying
what they can to put it on life support, to
resuscitate it. But as you said right at the start.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You're not holding out great hope.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Are you good? You can errant your voice?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
No, I think quite honestly, I think a lot of
these companies are strapped in terms of for the financial
side of running a tournament, and I think that's why
a lot of countries have lost a lot of interest.
Perhaps they needed more support from World Rugby, you know.
I mean, I can't really answer that, but sitting from
the outside, that's what it looks like. And as just said,
(09:16):
we're reducing number of teams, were now reducing a number
of tournaments.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
So where's the game going now? And that's the question mate.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, Well, the blame firmly laid at the feet of
World Rugby, after all, that is their sphere of influence.
It's rugby. It's part of that umbrella, and it's their
responsibility to keep the game going. And they basically, I
hate to use a cliche, but they've they've dropped the ball,
haven't they, Gordon?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
They have? Yeah, for sure they have.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And I certainly thought once it became an Olympic sport,
the game will just keep growing, but it's not.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
It's actually declining as we speak.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Well, let's hope can turn around and we can go
back to the Healthyon days. And thank you so much.
That's it's a miserable subject. You can hear it in
your voice, Gordon, So thanks for joining us. I hope
you can enjoy your weekend because yeah, we're all but flatmate.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah no, no, it is made And I mean there's
a tournament this weekend. I think it starts in Sunday,
New Zealand. Time for the final tournaments of the year
for the you know, for our black sevens team, for
our men's team and our women's team.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
But you see, look at the women's.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Team now, they are going into the last Tunnam with
they're basically a new team because a lot of the
girls now have pulled out and gone to the Rugby
World Cup to try and play for the Black Ferns
at the World Cup next year. So so again well
this year, I should say so, and likewise Australia.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So there'll be a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Of new teams this weekend as well in LA that
we don't even know well we don't know anything about
because they've got new athletes playing there as well.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks.
They'd be from seven pm weekdays well follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So I suppose innesially we've got to ask, well, what
do you make of this, this rejeg this re tooling
of World sevens.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I think the question you've got to ask you do
they want sevens to be around any longer?
Speaker 4 (00:24):
You know, that's the big question. I mean, if you
look at it over.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
The time that we're being involved in sevens, I think
we had initially we had twelve tournaments, down to ten,
it's down to eight, and now it's down to six.
And then you had number of sixteen teams, and then
you're down to twelve teams and now they're going down
to eight teams. You just wonder, I mean I thought,
certainly when to sixteen when it became an Olympic sport,
(00:50):
and then when you look at Paris just recently at
the Olympics, that every seat, every in the stadium was
sold out on all the days. Quite incredible, really, you
know the popularity of the sport. But again it's I
just feel it's pushing the players away play fifteens, I
mean for six tournaments a year.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Crazy, what's triggered this I suppose collapse.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Maybe that's not the correct word, but it sounds like
you're thinking it's on the on the way out.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Where was this come from?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
This mismanagement of the global series? Is a local issue?
Is a rugby issue? Based on the various unions that
look after it around the game? Where's it started?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You know?
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I just think it's the cost of financial is no stability.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean, I know a lot of the countries that
were were hosting the sevens tournaments weren't making any money.
So therefore they lose interest when you're losing a lot
of money, and perhaps they need more support from World Rugby.
You know, that's all they can really say. I mean,
that's that's where it starts from. Because I then look
at the Wellington tournament over a number of years.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I mean, the popularity was incredible.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Really just getting a ticket to that to the stadium
for the sevens and Wellington was pretty tough, you know,
and then a green we've lost that.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We don't have a tournament.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Now and when you look at our national team, we're
battling also because we don't have tournaments. There's no national tournament,
there's no provincial tournaments, there's very few club tournaments and
there's some youth tournaments and that's about it. So sevens
really has lost its popularity for someone none reason, and
I just put it down to pastures dollar and you said.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And you mentioned, you touched on this hasn't almost been
a bony contention between sevens and fifteen. It looks like
the National Union definitely leaning into the fifteen to site
at the expense of seven. So when it looks at pathways,
it's kind of hard to see one pathway lead into
another because they're very separate routes.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well exactly, and I think with a lot of the
players as well, they were actually pushing towards fifteens now
because the sevens are The tournaments now are certainly disappearing.
There's six tournaments now. I think for next year it
might be eight six, one or the other. But they've
reduced it to eight teams, and you know, you've got
three tiers, you've got a second tier that's going to
(03:08):
be playing to try and make the top tier. But
the interest has actually lost. We were playing for a
World Series once and it was over let's say twelve tournaments,
and you came out of it and you knew who
the winner was. Now over this just recent tournament. You know,
you've you've had a World Series.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
But it's still not quite over.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It is over this weekend in Los Angeles, but I
think the winner was I think Agentina. But then this
tournament this weekend apparently in LA is going to tell
you who the real champion is. So I'm really lost
when it comes to and it's just quite confusing.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, the simplicity is what you're after, because I'm the
same as you. Goodon. I sat and looked it. I
had to read it three or four times to work
out what was going on. I mean, that's not encouraging
anyone to get involved. I don't really understand where it's
coming from. But we can go back to simplicity. It's
just not there.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Well even you remember last year our girls won the
World Series, but then when they went to the last
tournament of the year, it was won by Australian girls,
so they got all the kudos for being the best
sevens team for the year, you know, but it didn't
seem right because the New Zealand girls were basically clearly
above everyone else. But we didn't win that last tournament,
(04:23):
so That's why I'm really conferious.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I just don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What do you think New Zealand rugby can do to
keep sevens afloat besides purely investment in that which playing is?
Is this the major thing here? But do you think
they're engaged nothing the promotion and of the sport and
keeping it a float.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, to be quite honest, I feel if we were,
if New Zia were going to really support the seven's game,
I'm sure we'd still have our own tournament, to be honest,
to be fair, and we don't have that. I mean
where I feel really sorry for the players that are
out there. There are some very very good rugby players.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Yeah that might not.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Necessarily at this moment of time make it and just
super rugby. There may be a good cential player, but
they could be an outstanding sevens player. And I want
to play in the international circuit, in the World Series,
but now it's only going to go for what four
or five months of the year, So what do I
do for the other five or six months. I need
to get involved and be involved in the game of
(05:22):
fifteen So if I want to progress in the game
of rugby, and.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
That's what it's come down.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So, and I really feel for those seven specialists guys
that perhaps you know, he saw a pathway to being
an international football or athlete to be involved in the
sevens program.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
And I want to go to the Olympics, but slowly
that may not be there.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I wonder how long it's got left if it's on
a it's and knees. I wan't say last legs. But
do you think there's a want for it globally to
carry on? Is there in the main rugby playing areas?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We know it's moved out and there's a lot of
areas that aren't traditionally rugby playing areas, rugby playing countries
and they've done really, really well, So you think the
word to be spread. But it's just not gains traction.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Has it no traction at all?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Let's face it down. Share there's no Commos games for
New Zealand. You know sevens is maintained out of the
Commas games.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
So I mean we're going to make the next Comrace games,
don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I know there's certainly going to be the Olympics, But
you know, to be good at this game of sevens,
you've got to be playing sevens and it's all about
conditioning and there's a certainly different conditions you.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Need to get to. But the big key is you've
got to be playing the game to be good at it.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And so what do we do do we just hang
around for every four years and just then put a
team out to go to the Olympics. But then we
may battle because there are some teams out there that
have improved dramatically as we've seen over the last certainly
couple of seasons. You know, if you're look looking at
Spain and things like that coming through and Beaten, you
(06:53):
know all Black sevens team beaten f I mean, there's
a certainly been a change of the guard in the
sevens game and certainly over the last couple of years.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, I think the interesting in New Zealand as well.
You cover them off nicely around the fact is not
here you want to be. You got to see it
and we don't see it. So people can't turn off.
The games are all over the world there at various times,
and I myself, I watch it, turn it up, but
I don't follow it intently.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Feel like I have an attachment because I's not here anymore.
And that's got it that well, that can't.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Help, can it.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
No?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
No, you're quite right, and we've lost a lot of interest,
not only because men's team haven't been performing, but it's
just the just isn't the same.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
I suppose.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Support out there for the game of sevens and and
we're recognizing that certainly at the high level world rugby
is not supporting sevens I believe, perhaps as much as
it could and we're certainly not getting support in the
sevens game here in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Healthyon days. Remember way back when when the pathway through
to all black representation and you went through sevens and
you learned so much, you got so fit, and you
really made your mark on the world. That worked well.
I mean you look at the superstars that played under you,
that went on to greater things, and you thought that
that would have carried on that conveyor belt would have
(08:12):
been nice to have carried on. But it's also seized.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, about forty odd players, I think about forty six players.
Then Darcy came came through the sevens teams and you know,
and I look at the current crop they're out there
now with the all blacks, you know, and voting and
Barren came through the scene.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Ardie Saville, Rico Joanni. There's three prominent you know, number one,
all blacks that are.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
In the current team that played sevens and they love
the game and look what it did for them as well.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I'm sure it helped in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Sure did as well. This is not great. They're trying
what they can to put it on life support, to
resuscitate it. But as you said right at the start.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You're not holding out great hope.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Are you good? You can errant your voice?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
No, I think quite honestly, I think a lot of
these companies are strapped in terms of for the financial
side of running a tournament, and I think that's why
a lot of countries have lost a lot of interest.
Perhaps they needed more support from World Rugby, you know.
I mean, I can't really answer that, but sitting from
the outside, that's what it looks like. And as just said,
(09:16):
we're reducing number of teams, were now reducing a number
of tournaments.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
So where's the game going now? And that's the question mate.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, Well, the blame firmly laid at the feet of
World Rugby, after all, that is their sphere of influence.
It's rugby. It's part of that umbrella, and it's their
responsibility to keep the game going. And they basically, I
hate to use a cliche, but they've they've dropped the ball,
haven't they, Gordon?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
They have? Yeah, for sure they have.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And I certainly thought once it became an Olympic sport,
the game will just keep growing, but it's not.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
It's actually declining as we speak.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Well, let's hope can turn around and we can go
back to the Healthyon days. And thank you so much.
That's it's a miserable subject. You can hear it in
your voice, Gordon, So thanks for joining us. I hope
you can enjoy your weekend because yeah, we're all but flatmate.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah no, no, it is made And I mean there's
a tournament this weekend. I think it starts in Sunday,
New Zealand. Time for the final tournaments of the year
for the you know, for our black sevens team, for
our men's team and our women's team.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
But you see, look at the women's.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Team now, they are going into the last Tunnam with
they're basically a new team because a lot of the
girls now have pulled out and gone to the Rugby
World Cup to try and play for the Black Ferns
at the World Cup next year. So so again well
this year, I should say so, and likewise Australia.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So there'll be a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Of new teams this weekend as well in LA that
we don't even know well we don't know anything about
because they've got new athletes playing there as well.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks.
They'd be from seven pm weekdays well follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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