Bit of a conundrum for you on Sportstalk today.
A 9-year-old boy has been told he can't play rugby in his own age group because he's over the weight limit.
D'Arcy Waldegrave spoke to Steve Lancaster on Sportstalk about if this is fair.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're talking now the story around the young boy nine
year old who is just too big to play rugby
with his mates and Countries Monaco Rugby turned him down
and said, look, I'm sorry, it's not happening outpoories of grief,
of a motion, a few people going all old on
to deal with it, go up a level. So to
talk about that and how this all operates, we're joined
(00:35):
now by the general manager of Community Rugby, Steve lancast Today. Steve,
how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah? Great? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
That's what I like to hear. Interesting story fighting around
today and as the gem of Community Rugby, it's right
in your wheelhouse this decision, which is I believe not
in he's in a rugby decision. It sits purely with
counties and mort there at Counties Monaco, this young man
at nine years old, too heavy for the weight grade,
can't play. He's devastated. His parents are upset, which is
(01:06):
completely understandable. But this story cuts both ways, doesn't it.
There's a good and there's a bad, and the smallest
and the biggest are affected by this. Now he's in
a rugby been in the space for a long time
trying to work out how to get this balance right.
Where are you at the moment?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, it's a catch twenty two, Darcy. I mean in
the case you've just referred to, I mean my heart
goes out to the kid and their family. Right. The
one thing that we always say, we never want to
hear is that people want to play rugby and are
unable to. So, look, that's just a really sad situation, unfortunately,
But you're right, it cuts both ways, and we just
(01:44):
continuously walk a really fine line in terms of enabling
everybody to play, and often due to numbers, that means
everybody playing on the same field in the same game,
versus managing perceptions around risk and physical mismatches and the like.
And so for every family that say you should every
kid play irrespective of their size and weight and capabilities,
(02:04):
there will be families on the other side. Well, if
you do that, I'm not leaving my kid anywhere near
the pitch. So it is a bit of a no win. Unfortunately,
in these situations, how do you broach this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
You must look to want to solve this, And you
said it's catch twenty two. It's difficult to solve, and
you would have done a lot of work on presuming
in that space about how to achieve that balance is
just a case. There's always going to be sato. It's
but blood on the floor. You can't win, can you.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, it's really difficult as to I mean, no, one's
probably too strong a word, right. We allow each provincial
union to form its own rules around grades and weight
limits and weight restriction or open grade, and that's appropriate,
right because every provincial union has a different demographic, different population,
so it's different player numbers. So you know, in our
larger metropolitan areas we've got bigger numbers, greater critical mess
(02:52):
it's easier to run open grade and restricted grade competitions
in the same region or province. In some of the
smaller provinces that there really isn't any choice you're playing.
You know, you're having to play a couple of year
grades together and you don't have a luxury of restricted weights.
So we absolutely enable the provincial unions to determine what
those parameters are with their with their local clubs, and
(03:12):
we play a supporting role around well, any insights for
your support that we can provide. And then the other
lens that we bring is the shape of the game itself.
So we've done a lot of work in recent years
on small black rugby from ages five through the third
and ensuring that the game is safe, enjoyable, inclusive all
the things that you want for a sport experience for
(03:33):
your kids.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
What guidelines do you put out, because all very well
and good saying to the provincial unions, Look, you work
it at yourself because of all the reasons you pointed out,
But is there a set of guidelines, some parameters that
they should operate within or must operate within.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean we are more ourglidlines and our policeas
in fact are more related to age and age to
play seeing your rugby or ages that you can play
up or down in grades beyond that, really, we do
allow the provincial unions to set these these frameworks themselves, right,
so they know they know their populations well, they know
(04:10):
their community as well. Another key thing is that I'll
say is that every union has a dispensation process, right,
so it's never a simple cut and drive yes or no.
There are opportunities for kids and their families to seek
dispensations to play up or to play integrates, and the
union will go through a range of assessments and doing
that right around say the cohort that they'll be playing
(04:32):
with the capability of not only the kid that wants
a dispensation, but other kids just where there any medical
safety reasons or considerations. So yeah, look at I say,
we really do leave it to each of the unions.
It's twenty six unions. They've all got entirely different contexts
and so they know the community's best.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Can you override if they reject the dispensation, which is
what happened in this case, Can you write on only
goo nacy, hold on, we don't think this is right
and stamp your authority that are No.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
No, there are always appeal processes in any situation where
people can escalate a complaint or a concern. But again,
we'd be very loath to overturn the decision of a
provincial union provided we were satisfied that their process was good.
And again they know their community's best, and our experienced
union's processes are really good because the people that are
(05:19):
running clubs, the people that are on councils of delegates
or organizing committees, they're all doing that because they love
the game and they want people to play it right,
So nobody turns up with a mindset how do we
stop people playing this game?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
When you look at how often do the unions, or
do the union in general look at the rulings, look
at the parameters and maybe look to adjust them depending
on the time. Is this something that's constantly looked at?
Is it once every four or five years? How do
you go about because like Bag of my Day, and
you'll know this bag in the seventies, Mate, you played
(05:50):
regardless and if someone ran straight at the top of
you will toughen ups. It's very different now, so things change.
Is this a movable feast, Steve?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It is a little bit right it? Certainly every union
looks at us every year because as much as I
say they know their community's best, those communities are constantly
evolving as well. So you talk about you and I
growing up in the seventies, typically your parents are likely
to chuck our concrete problems. They get on with it.
It's a very different world that we live in now.
But also we've got very rapidly evolving demographics. So depending
(06:20):
on whereabouts you are in the country, you've now got
emerging communities, You've got parents who have different propensities for risk,
or advertise for risk or perceived risk. So it's constantly
changing that the context is constantly shifting, and so the
unions are and what's actually a really difficult space where
they're constantly re evaluating and assessing what's right. And again,
(06:40):
most of the unions are looking where they can. They're
having open grades that sit alongside restrictive grades wherever possible,
but it's not always possible due to numbers.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It's a very emotive story. When in the motive story
climbs in the media, we know what happens. Human reaction
means people want to know more about it. But my
question here is how common is this to the beast
of your knowledge, that we have somebody who sits outside
their parameters and can't actually play and they might stop
playing the game you don't want there? But is a
(07:10):
common occurrence a rarity?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Look, it's I guess it's common in that it happens
every year, and it probably happens in every provincial union,
but it's it's relatively uncommon in that, you know, we've
got approximately eighty thousand junior players in New Zealand, and
we're probably dealing with these issues across all of those
junior grades, and numbers of that across the country would
be in their hundreds at most. So yeah, it's common,
(07:32):
it happens all the time, but it's statistically significant. Well,
that's debatable. It depends on each union.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So you base these these calls around weight and age
unions to the primary concern is safety? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah? Well twofold safety. Safety is always a primary concern
and we'll never override safety in the interests of other considerations.
But very high on seels is the experience of the players, right,
so we want kids to come back every year. So
as much as we don't want kids to be told
they can't play, we also don't want kids that feel
that they're getting beat up week in and week out
(08:09):
and and don't have a good experience and don't come back.
And so that's the that's the balancing act.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And all of this huge balancing act, and this will
probably go on because as you know, this is the
beauty of rugby. It's for all shapes and sizes. But
you have to, I'm presuming, have limitations for as you said,
the safety, and when you get to a particular age
then it's all on for level money. And if someone
turns up and says, I'm not playing against Joan Olmus
(08:37):
too big, it's tough. You're a man now, right.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
It is tough. And again this is why we're investing
heavily in alternative formats of the game as well. So
you know, we've had Ripper rug for a number of years.
Then we've seen Ripper and rip rugby extending up through
the year groups and we've we've had some some real success.
North Harbor have been an absolutely shining light and leading
the way there where they've they've extended Ripper grades right
(09:02):
up into broaching on the teenage years and they have
they have good We're also launching this year a new
non contact form of the game, t one Rugby. We
think that that's going to have a lot of appeal
and so what we're trying to do is ensure that
for people who for whatever reason don't have an appetite
for the contact or they can't find a greater contact
grade that suits them at this point in time. And
bear in mind that all these kids are growing at
(09:23):
different rates as well, so while they might have about
to find a grade this year that could change rapidly,
and so giving them non contact or limited contact options
to stay in the game is also really important.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And one of the most popular grades and a team
representative team just traveled to treadinkit recently the under eighty
five kg and that's proving to be very, very popular.
So it's not cookie cutter. It can't be. You guys
have got to be constantly on the move to work
out what's best for the game, what's best for participation,
exactly right.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And yeah, the underady fives is a great example right
where we've seen an opportunity to keep players in the
game by giving them more opportunities to play in restricted grades.
And it's going game busters. So we'll keep innovating, We'll
keep trying stuff. Some of it will work, some that won't,
but we'll keep trying.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talk z'
B from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're talking now the story around the young boy nine
year old who is just too big to play rugby
with his mates and Countries Monaco Rugby turned him down
and said, look, I'm sorry, it's not happening outpoories of grief,
of a motion, a few people going all old on
to deal with it, go up a level. So to
talk about that and how this all operates, we're joined
(00:35):
now by the general manager of Community Rugby, Steve lancast Today. Steve,
how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah? Great? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
That's what I like to hear. Interesting story fighting around
today and as the gem of Community Rugby, it's right
in your wheelhouse this decision, which is I believe not
in he's in a rugby decision. It sits purely with
counties and mort there at Counties Monaco, this young man
at nine years old, too heavy for the weight grade,
can't play. He's devastated. His parents are upset, which is
(01:06):
completely understandable. But this story cuts both ways, doesn't it.
There's a good and there's a bad, and the smallest
and the biggest are affected by this. Now he's in
a rugby been in the space for a long time
trying to work out how to get this balance right.
Where are you at the moment?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, it's a catch twenty two, Darcy. I mean in
the case you've just referred to, I mean my heart
goes out to the kid and their family. Right. The
one thing that we always say, we never want to
hear is that people want to play rugby and are
unable to. So, look, that's just a really sad situation, unfortunately,
But you're right, it cuts both ways, and we just
(01:44):
continuously walk a really fine line in terms of enabling
everybody to play, and often due to numbers, that means
everybody playing on the same field in the same game,
versus managing perceptions around risk and physical mismatches and the like.
And so for every family that say you should every
kid play irrespective of their size and weight and capabilities,
(02:04):
there will be families on the other side. Well, if
you do that, I'm not leaving my kid anywhere near
the pitch. So it is a bit of a no win. Unfortunately,
in these situations, how do you broach this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
You must look to want to solve this, And you
said it's catch twenty two. It's difficult to solve, and
you would have done a lot of work on presuming
in that space about how to achieve that balance is
just a case. There's always going to be sato. It's
but blood on the floor. You can't win, can you.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, it's really difficult as to I mean, no, one's
probably too strong a word, right. We allow each provincial
union to form its own rules around grades and weight
limits and weight restriction or open grade, and that's appropriate,
right because every provincial union has a different demographic, different population,
so it's different player numbers. So you know, in our
larger metropolitan areas we've got bigger numbers, greater critical mess
(02:52):
it's easier to run open grade and restricted grade competitions
in the same region or province. In some of the
smaller provinces that there really isn't any choice you're playing.
You know, you're having to play a couple of year
grades together and you don't have a luxury of restricted weights.
So we absolutely enable the provincial unions to determine what
those parameters are with their with their local clubs, and
(03:12):
we play a supporting role around well, any insights for
your support that we can provide. And then the other
lens that we bring is the shape of the game itself.
So we've done a lot of work in recent years
on small black rugby from ages five through the third
and ensuring that the game is safe, enjoyable, inclusive all
the things that you want for a sport experience for
(03:33):
your kids.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
What guidelines do you put out, because all very well
and good saying to the provincial unions, Look, you work
it at yourself because of all the reasons you pointed out,
But is there a set of guidelines, some parameters that
they should operate within or must operate within.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean we are more ourglidlines and our policeas
in fact are more related to age and age to
play seeing your rugby or ages that you can play
up or down in grades beyond that, really, we do
allow the provincial unions to set these these frameworks themselves, right,
so they know they know their populations well, they know
(04:10):
their community as well. Another key thing is that I'll
say is that every union has a dispensation process, right,
so it's never a simple cut and drive yes or no.
There are opportunities for kids and their families to seek
dispensations to play up or to play integrates, and the
union will go through a range of assessments and doing
that right around say the cohort that they'll be playing
(04:32):
with the capability of not only the kid that wants
a dispensation, but other kids just where there any medical
safety reasons or considerations. So yeah, look at I say,
we really do leave it to each of the unions.
It's twenty six unions. They've all got entirely different contexts
and so they know the community's best.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Can you override if they reject the dispensation, which is
what happened in this case, Can you write on only
goo nacy, hold on, we don't think this is right
and stamp your authority that are No.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
No, there are always appeal processes in any situation where
people can escalate a complaint or a concern. But again,
we'd be very loath to overturn the decision of a
provincial union provided we were satisfied that their process was good.
And again they know their community's best, and our experienced
union's processes are really good because the people that are
(05:19):
running clubs, the people that are on councils of delegates
or organizing committees, they're all doing that because they love
the game and they want people to play it right,
So nobody turns up with a mindset how do we
stop people playing this game?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
When you look at how often do the unions, or
do the union in general look at the rulings, look
at the parameters and maybe look to adjust them depending
on the time. Is this something that's constantly looked at?
Is it once every four or five years? How do
you go about because like Bag of my Day, and
you'll know this bag in the seventies, Mate, you played
(05:50):
regardless and if someone ran straight at the top of
you will toughen ups. It's very different now, so things change.
Is this a movable feast, Steve?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It is a little bit right it? Certainly every union
looks at us every year because as much as I
say they know their community's best, those communities are constantly
evolving as well. So you talk about you and I
growing up in the seventies, typically your parents are likely
to chuck our concrete problems. They get on with it.
It's a very different world that we live in now.
But also we've got very rapidly evolving demographics. So depending
(06:20):
on whereabouts you are in the country, you've now got
emerging communities, You've got parents who have different propensities for risk,
or advertise for risk or perceived risk. So it's constantly
changing that the context is constantly shifting, and so the
unions are and what's actually a really difficult space where
they're constantly re evaluating and assessing what's right. And again,
(06:40):
most of the unions are looking where they can. They're
having open grades that sit alongside restrictive grades wherever possible,
but it's not always possible due to numbers.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It's a very emotive story. When in the motive story
climbs in the media, we know what happens. Human reaction
means people want to know more about it. But my
question here is how common is this to the beast
of your knowledge, that we have somebody who sits outside
their parameters and can't actually play and they might stop
playing the game you don't want there? But is a
(07:10):
common occurrence a rarity?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Look, it's I guess it's common in that it happens
every year, and it probably happens in every provincial union,
but it's it's relatively uncommon in that, you know, we've
got approximately eighty thousand junior players in New Zealand, and
we're probably dealing with these issues across all of those
junior grades, and numbers of that across the country would
be in their hundreds at most. So yeah, it's common,
(07:32):
it happens all the time, but it's statistically significant. Well,
that's debatable. It depends on each union.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So you base these these calls around weight and age
unions to the primary concern is safety? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah? Well twofold safety. Safety is always a primary concern
and we'll never override safety in the interests of other considerations.
But very high on seels is the experience of the players, right,
so we want kids to come back every year. So
as much as we don't want kids to be told
they can't play, we also don't want kids that feel
that they're getting beat up week in and week out
(08:09):
and and don't have a good experience and don't come back.
And so that's the that's the balancing act.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And all of this huge balancing act, and this will
probably go on because as you know, this is the
beauty of rugby. It's for all shapes and sizes. But
you have to, I'm presuming, have limitations for as you said,
the safety, and when you get to a particular age
then it's all on for level money. And if someone
turns up and says, I'm not playing against Joan Olmus
(08:37):
too big, it's tough. You're a man now, right.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
It is tough. And again this is why we're investing
heavily in alternative formats of the game as well. So
you know, we've had Ripper rug for a number of years.
Then we've seen Ripper and rip rugby extending up through
the year groups and we've we've had some some real success.
North Harbor have been an absolutely shining light and leading
the way there where they've they've extended Ripper grades right
(09:02):
up into broaching on the teenage years and they have
they have good We're also launching this year a new
non contact form of the game, t one Rugby. We
think that that's going to have a lot of appeal
and so what we're trying to do is ensure that
for people who for whatever reason don't have an appetite
for the contact or they can't find a greater contact
grade that suits them at this point in time. And
bear in mind that all these kids are growing at
(09:23):
different rates as well, so while they might have about
to find a grade this year that could change rapidly,
and so giving them non contact or limited contact options
to stay in the game is also really important.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And one of the most popular grades and a team
representative team just traveled to treadinkit recently the under eighty
five kg and that's proving to be very, very popular.
So it's not cookie cutter. It can't be. You guys
have got to be constantly on the move to work
out what's best for the game, what's best for participation,
exactly right.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And yeah, the underady fives is a great example right
where we've seen an opportunity to keep players in the
game by giving them more opportunities to play in restricted grades.
And it's going game busters. So we'll keep innovating, We'll
keep trying stuff. Some of it will work, some that won't,
but we'll keep trying.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talk z'
B from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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