November 8, 2024 • 13 mins
Sky Sport Commentator Tony Johnson joined D'Arcy Waldegrave to preview the Ireland v All Blacks test match.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be and It's warm. Welcome to the program to
Tony Johnson TJ. Welcome on Border Trust. You're excited and.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Well, yeah, this is again that I think a lot
of us have been waiting for for a long time.
It's probably the focal point of the whole tour because
I think Ireland has now become a measuring stick that
our team has achieved great things over the last decade
and beating the All Blacks you know, with some frequency now,
and so I think this is going to be a
(00:39):
real measure of where this team has come under its
new coaching staff and just you know how well they
came of playing in a really I think you very
challenging circumstance.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Are you expecting a victory?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
No, no, I'm not. I don't think we can do
that anymore. You know, we just have to be realistic
about things. The world has changed and balances of power
have shifted. You know, the All Blacks had an absolutely
fantastic era, probably really started when Graham Henry took over,
right through towards the end of the twenty nineteen World Cup.
(01:15):
They were the pre eminent team in the world even
when they didn't win the trophy. Bart, the fact of
the matter is other teams have gotten better. We've lost
Not only have we lost a lot of good players,
either to retirement or to more lucrative pastures, we've lost
a lot of intellectual property with the number of New
Zealand coaches that are applying their trade off shore. And
(01:39):
we run into another one of them this weekend, and
Andrew Goodman, a man who's so well versed in the
ways of Scott Robertson, and you know Scott Hansen, Jason Ryan,
you know he's coaching with Ireland. So and you know,
other teams have gotten better. Maybe at the moment we're
just in a patch where we're rebuilding, and so I
don't think we can expect, we can't demand wins. We
(02:00):
just hope for them and if the team plays well,
I think they're capable of doing it.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The bookies have got Ireland firm favorites at two six sorry,
one forty five, and the All Blacks outside at two sixty.
Is that warranted? Is there that much of a spread
between the two sides?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, and all the time I've been following the game.
You know, it's not often you see odds like that
facing the All Blacks. But I think you have to
consider a couple of factors. First of all, the All
Blacks they've been a bit stitched up here really, I mean,
having to turn around six days after playing England at Twickenham.
You know, they don't get a full week to prepare
for a team that it's kind of you know, there's
always that debate who is the best team in the world,
(02:40):
but if they're not number one, they certainly number two,
and so that that's difficult. And also you know, with
a couple of important personnel ruled out of this game,
it's not going to be easy. But having said that again,
Ireland they haven't had a game for a while, they
had last week off, they've been training in Portugal and
so you know there's a chance that you might be
(03:03):
able to catch them just a little bit ring rusty,
something like that. But the factor is that the odds
are absolutely stacked in favor of Ireland, and if the
All Blacks can win this game, I think it'll be
a remarkable achievement.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And Tony Johnson joining us looking at our Ireland and
the All Blacks team past nine in the morning, gloor
is time to watch a bit of rugby. Who carries
the weight of expectation and pressure the best, because if
you look at World Cup quarter finals, Ireland always drop it.
But they've had our measure of recent times. They'll be
under a lot though they're at home. That they win,
(03:34):
it's a huge amount of pressure for them to absorb.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, and it's something that they're still having to get
used to, and that is you know that they're no
longer the hunters, that no longer the team that you
know would play gallantly and with great passion and fire
and just sort of fall away at the end and
everyone would say, well they gave it a great crack
that that isn't the case anymore and so they have
(03:58):
to live with the expectation now now. To be fair
to them, they did get a very good win against
the spring Box, narrow but a win against the spring
Box in South Africa earlier on this year that is
nothing to be sniffed at, so you know, and it's
not a World Cup. They haven't got that monkey on
their back. They're playing at the Aviva in front of
their own fans and their own conditions against an All
(04:21):
Black team that hasn't had a routine weeks preparation, and
I you know, they should be confident. You know, what
the All Blacks have to do is firstly start well,
maybe just shake things up a little bit. But what
they can't afford to do is allow Ireland any leeway
at all through bad discipline and just going through patches
(04:44):
where the ball gets dropped. You know, they turned the
ball for over twenty times last week and I think
you know two thirds of the way through the game
the penalty counts nine to two against. You can't you
won't get away with that at the Aviva because Ireland
are a very efficient team. They you know, the way
they attack, they simpainly, come at you in waves and
they build pressure really well. It's a good blueprint. So
(05:09):
you know, the All Blacks will have to make massive
improvements on those two areas of the game. Plus also
you know their line out they've got to make sure
that they're set piece is solid. So they've got to
get a lot of things right. And if they do,
you know, I think there's the talent in the team
that's the ability to break open a defense in that
All black side that makes them capable of winning?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Do they have a weakness the Iris lineup is there
in an area maybe that could be attacked or exploited
if you will.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Well, they are missing a couple of their top front rowers,
Tiger Furlong, who I think has got a lot of
admirers in this part of the world. I'm certainly one
of them. I think he's a fantastic player and he's
not playing and he's a bit of a talisman in
that forward pack. Dan Shean, their number one hooker, is
out as well, so maybe a chance to put a
(05:59):
bit of pressure on there. They've got a lot of experience,
but you also look at their bench and you see
names like Henderson, Heay. These are guys that have been
around for an awful long time. You know, you just
wonder whether they, you know what, are they still capable
of producing the Even Peter o'marony, we saw him play
for months to last week. Is he the player that
(06:21):
he was? So maybe there's that question mark against it,
But I think you've just got to get amongst them
early on, make a good start, break them open. But
if you can do that, then just take the crowd
out of it to a degree and bring in some
old doubts into the mix. But it's not going to
be easy. You know this, As I say, this is
a tremendous Irish team and when you think about what
(06:43):
they had, you know, you go back to twenty eleven
when they made another World Cup exit and everyone thought,
well that's the end of Ireland for a while, because
you know, no more drisk Well, no more Garrant, O'Connell, O'Callaghan,
all of those guys, you know, they're gone by the wayside.
And yet the next generation and the generation of that
after that have been outstanding. And you know that as
(07:05):
good now as they have ever been.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Tony Johnson joins us, looking at tomorrow morning's fixture between
Ireland and New Zealand, no DeGroot. I'd like your opinion
on the way this is unfolded. I think that's normally
pretty tight lipped around what happened. And then again another
not demotion, but failure to be selected. What does this
(07:29):
say to you about the team? Is this very much
now Scott Robertson's team because everybody's clammed up, there are
no leaks. Is that the right way to go? Do
you think TJ.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Well, I don't think it's the right way to go
about it, because if you drop someone of his profile
and you don't say why you've done it or offer
any clues, you don't have to go through it, you know,
hammer and tongs and toose and nail or whatever, you know,
but just give some idea as to why instead of
coming out with some cliche thing about internal reasons. Well,
(07:59):
that just leaves the whole thing wide open for speculation.
And so there's people saying, was he broken curfew? Is
it because he's not fit that fitness Maybe it has
been a bit of an issue in the past, and
it could be that. So, but if it is a
fitness issue, why allow a situation where people are speculating
that maybe he you know, he's broken curfew or done
(08:21):
something you know wrong In that sense, I think a
bit of clarity or just a little bit more openness
about it just avoids that sort of talk. And as
I say, I don't think they've handled this the right way.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Maybe he packed a sad after getting punished and his
attitude was really bad during the lead up. Robertson, we're
in ak fine, going to drop you again. But as
you pointed out, we're making this up with filling this
vacuum because we don't know. Someone suggests none none of
our business.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Though, right, Well maybe, But all I'm saying is if
they want to avoid all that sort of speculation, then
just a bit more openness about it, and then your leaves,
you know, the media, the speculator, social media, nowhere to go.
This is what it is. You know, he I don't know,
(09:13):
he broke a coffee cup the other morning when he
dropped it on the floor, and we're going to drop
him for that. I'm not saying that's what happened, but
you know what I mean. You just get it out there,
you say that this is what happened where we're not happy.
If it's the fitness thing, well we're just not happy
with his fitness at the moment. We're working on that
hope to get him ready, you know, for the test
against France. Or if it's a team protocol thing, well
we have team protocols in terms of you know, our
(09:36):
and you know, unfortunately he's made a mistake here or
something like just whatever, you know, And that means that
instead of talking about it, we're talking about something else.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And I'm with you hundred percent of that. I'm not
going to argue. Let's just get back to the game
before we finally title up Tony Johnson, as always, thanks
very much for joining us. Is this team increased in
talent and application? Is there a general rise up from
the All Blacks? Do you think under the Robertson Kosh
(10:10):
it's been a while now he's on the way Is
he on the way up? Are they getting better?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well? I think there are definite signs of, you know,
the potential in this team and that certain things are
starting to take shape. There's no doubt about their aspects
of their attacking play. Some of the lovely handling moves,
the infield passes, the passes out the back door from
the forward, those sorts of things, you know, are starting
(10:34):
to show some real potential. That we're not as badly off,
for example, for locks as we thought we might have
been post White Lock and Brittallic that we've got a
bit of big talent, hard working talent coming through there.
We're better off for props than I think we've been
for a while, just in terms of the number of
guys who can play test match rugby. But there are
(10:57):
these question marks now, first of all, England. You beat
England at twicken them, I don't care how you do it,
whether you win it by one or one hundred, it
doesn't matter. This is this is and no butt scenario.
When you beat England, you take the win and you
get the hell out of there. But we all know
that they need to improve. I think the most encouraging
thing about the win over England was the fact that
(11:19):
they were able to come from a deficit that they'd
started well, they'd fallen back, they were eight points behind,
and they found a way to win the game in
the last twenty minutes, which is something they haven't been
doing this year, and I think they will take a
huge amount from that. That was a real achievement. Even
if England did fluff their lines at the end, well,
(11:39):
so be it. That's what happens, you know, heat of
the moment stuff. Who takes their chances, who doesn't. That's
test rugby. But what they have to do is that
they have to improve their discipline, markedly, not giving away
silly penalties. You know, when a guy goes down on
the boord and zone twenty two, you don't on top
of him because you turn goodfield position. Suddenly you're heading
(12:00):
back in the direction of your own goal line again.
You know, the fifty to fifty passes. Mackenzie has to
stay in the zone for much longer than he has.
He's got the ability to rip them open, but he'll
also do things that simply go off script or an
error that will cost them momentum or points or whatever.
He you know, this is a massive opportunity for him
(12:24):
to showcase his talent but also prove that he is
capable of, you know, being the you know that the
playmaker in a test match, because I think if he
doesn't do it in this test then he really is
running out of opportunities and.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Last but certain and not leasting and make this really short.
Do you reckon that Rica Yuanni should lead the Harker?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I got no, I have no idea who should lead
the Harker. I see what you tell I get what
you're where you're coming from. Yeah, I suppose it's all
that business that's made it such an enticing thing. There
is a backdrop to this one for sure, and he's
part of it. Just wait and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It will be bonus trolling. If it was talking to
the all Blacks taking on the Irish and I'm calling
them the Quarters because they actually haven't got a proper
nickname and the Quarters with their World Cup success, sums
it up for me. Tony Johnson, thanks for your time
and opinion.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
As always, Cheers Darcy.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be and It's warm. Welcome to the program to
Tony Johnson TJ. Welcome on Border Trust. You're excited and.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Well, yeah, this is again that I think a lot
of us have been waiting for for a long time.
It's probably the focal point of the whole tour because
I think Ireland has now become a measuring stick that
our team has achieved great things over the last decade
and beating the All Blacks you know, with some frequency now,
and so I think this is going to be a
(00:39):
real measure of where this team has come under its
new coaching staff and just you know how well they
came of playing in a really I think you very
challenging circumstance.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Are you expecting a victory?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
No, no, I'm not. I don't think we can do
that anymore. You know, we just have to be realistic
about things. The world has changed and balances of power
have shifted. You know, the All Blacks had an absolutely
fantastic era, probably really started when Graham Henry took over,
right through towards the end of the twenty nineteen World Cup.
(01:15):
They were the pre eminent team in the world even
when they didn't win the trophy. Bart, the fact of
the matter is other teams have gotten better. We've lost
Not only have we lost a lot of good players,
either to retirement or to more lucrative pastures, we've lost
a lot of intellectual property with the number of New
Zealand coaches that are applying their trade off shore. And
(01:39):
we run into another one of them this weekend, and
Andrew Goodman, a man who's so well versed in the
ways of Scott Robertson, and you know Scott Hansen, Jason Ryan,
you know he's coaching with Ireland. So and you know,
other teams have gotten better. Maybe at the moment we're
just in a patch where we're rebuilding, and so I
don't think we can expect, we can't demand wins. We
(02:00):
just hope for them and if the team plays well,
I think they're capable of doing it.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The bookies have got Ireland firm favorites at two six sorry,
one forty five, and the All Blacks outside at two sixty.
Is that warranted? Is there that much of a spread
between the two sides?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, and all the time I've been following the game.
You know, it's not often you see odds like that
facing the All Blacks. But I think you have to
consider a couple of factors. First of all, the All
Blacks they've been a bit stitched up here really, I mean,
having to turn around six days after playing England at Twickenham.
You know, they don't get a full week to prepare
for a team that it's kind of you know, there's
always that debate who is the best team in the world,
(02:40):
but if they're not number one, they certainly number two,
and so that that's difficult. And also you know, with
a couple of important personnel ruled out of this game,
it's not going to be easy. But having said that again,
Ireland they haven't had a game for a while, they
had last week off, they've been training in Portugal and
so you know there's a chance that you might be
(03:03):
able to catch them just a little bit ring rusty,
something like that. But the factor is that the odds
are absolutely stacked in favor of Ireland, and if the
All Blacks can win this game, I think it'll be
a remarkable achievement.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And Tony Johnson joining us looking at our Ireland and
the All Blacks team past nine in the morning, gloor
is time to watch a bit of rugby. Who carries
the weight of expectation and pressure the best, because if
you look at World Cup quarter finals, Ireland always drop it.
But they've had our measure of recent times. They'll be
under a lot though they're at home. That they win,
(03:34):
it's a huge amount of pressure for them to absorb.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, and it's something that they're still having to get
used to, and that is you know that they're no
longer the hunters, that no longer the team that you
know would play gallantly and with great passion and fire
and just sort of fall away at the end and
everyone would say, well they gave it a great crack
that that isn't the case anymore and so they have
(03:58):
to live with the expectation now now. To be fair
to them, they did get a very good win against
the spring Box, narrow but a win against the spring
Box in South Africa earlier on this year that is
nothing to be sniffed at, so you know, and it's
not a World Cup. They haven't got that monkey on
their back. They're playing at the Aviva in front of
their own fans and their own conditions against an All
(04:21):
Black team that hasn't had a routine weeks preparation, and
I you know, they should be confident. You know, what
the All Blacks have to do is firstly start well,
maybe just shake things up a little bit. But what
they can't afford to do is allow Ireland any leeway
at all through bad discipline and just going through patches
(04:44):
where the ball gets dropped. You know, they turned the
ball for over twenty times last week and I think
you know two thirds of the way through the game
the penalty counts nine to two against. You can't you
won't get away with that at the Aviva because Ireland
are a very efficient team. They you know, the way
they attack, they simpainly, come at you in waves and
they build pressure really well. It's a good blueprint. So
(05:09):
you know, the All Blacks will have to make massive
improvements on those two areas of the game. Plus also
you know their line out they've got to make sure
that they're set piece is solid. So they've got to
get a lot of things right. And if they do,
you know, I think there's the talent in the team
that's the ability to break open a defense in that
All black side that makes them capable of winning?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Do they have a weakness the Iris lineup is there
in an area maybe that could be attacked or exploited
if you will.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Well, they are missing a couple of their top front rowers,
Tiger Furlong, who I think has got a lot of
admirers in this part of the world. I'm certainly one
of them. I think he's a fantastic player and he's
not playing and he's a bit of a talisman in
that forward pack. Dan Shean, their number one hooker, is
out as well, so maybe a chance to put a
(05:59):
bit of pressure on there. They've got a lot of experience,
but you also look at their bench and you see
names like Henderson, Heay. These are guys that have been
around for an awful long time. You know, you just
wonder whether they, you know what, are they still capable
of producing the Even Peter o'marony, we saw him play
for months to last week. Is he the player that
(06:21):
he was? So maybe there's that question mark against it,
But I think you've just got to get amongst them
early on, make a good start, break them open. But
if you can do that, then just take the crowd
out of it to a degree and bring in some
old doubts into the mix. But it's not going to
be easy. You know this, As I say, this is
a tremendous Irish team and when you think about what
(06:43):
they had, you know, you go back to twenty eleven
when they made another World Cup exit and everyone thought,
well that's the end of Ireland for a while, because
you know, no more drisk Well, no more Garrant, O'Connell, O'Callaghan,
all of those guys, you know, they're gone by the wayside.
And yet the next generation and the generation of that
after that have been outstanding. And you know that as
(07:05):
good now as they have ever been.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Tony Johnson joins us, looking at tomorrow morning's fixture between
Ireland and New Zealand, no DeGroot. I'd like your opinion
on the way this is unfolded. I think that's normally
pretty tight lipped around what happened. And then again another
not demotion, but failure to be selected. What does this
(07:29):
say to you about the team? Is this very much
now Scott Robertson's team because everybody's clammed up, there are
no leaks. Is that the right way to go? Do
you think TJ.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Well, I don't think it's the right way to go
about it, because if you drop someone of his profile
and you don't say why you've done it or offer
any clues, you don't have to go through it, you know,
hammer and tongs and toose and nail or whatever, you know,
but just give some idea as to why instead of
coming out with some cliche thing about internal reasons. Well,
(07:59):
that just leaves the whole thing wide open for speculation.
And so there's people saying, was he broken curfew? Is
it because he's not fit that fitness Maybe it has
been a bit of an issue in the past, and
it could be that. So, but if it is a
fitness issue, why allow a situation where people are speculating
that maybe he you know, he's broken curfew or done
(08:21):
something you know wrong In that sense, I think a
bit of clarity or just a little bit more openness
about it just avoids that sort of talk. And as
I say, I don't think they've handled this the right way.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Maybe he packed a sad after getting punished and his
attitude was really bad during the lead up. Robertson, we're
in ak fine, going to drop you again. But as
you pointed out, we're making this up with filling this
vacuum because we don't know. Someone suggests none none of
our business.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Though, right, Well maybe, But all I'm saying is if
they want to avoid all that sort of speculation, then
just a bit more openness about it, and then your leaves,
you know, the media, the speculator, social media, nowhere to go.
This is what it is. You know, he I don't know,
(09:13):
he broke a coffee cup the other morning when he
dropped it on the floor, and we're going to drop
him for that. I'm not saying that's what happened, but
you know what I mean. You just get it out there,
you say that this is what happened where we're not happy.
If it's the fitness thing, well we're just not happy
with his fitness at the moment. We're working on that
hope to get him ready, you know, for the test
against France. Or if it's a team protocol thing, well
we have team protocols in terms of you know, our
(09:36):
and you know, unfortunately he's made a mistake here or
something like just whatever, you know, And that means that
instead of talking about it, we're talking about something else.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And I'm with you hundred percent of that. I'm not
going to argue. Let's just get back to the game
before we finally title up Tony Johnson, as always, thanks
very much for joining us. Is this team increased in
talent and application? Is there a general rise up from
the All Blacks? Do you think under the Robertson Kosh
(10:10):
it's been a while now he's on the way Is
he on the way up? Are they getting better?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well? I think there are definite signs of, you know,
the potential in this team and that certain things are
starting to take shape. There's no doubt about their aspects
of their attacking play. Some of the lovely handling moves,
the infield passes, the passes out the back door from
the forward, those sorts of things, you know, are starting
(10:34):
to show some real potential. That we're not as badly off,
for example, for locks as we thought we might have
been post White Lock and Brittallic that we've got a
bit of big talent, hard working talent coming through there.
We're better off for props than I think we've been
for a while, just in terms of the number of
guys who can play test match rugby. But there are
(10:57):
these question marks now, first of all, England. You beat
England at twicken them, I don't care how you do it,
whether you win it by one or one hundred, it
doesn't matter. This is this is and no butt scenario.
When you beat England, you take the win and you
get the hell out of there. But we all know
that they need to improve. I think the most encouraging
thing about the win over England was the fact that
(11:19):
they were able to come from a deficit that they'd
started well, they'd fallen back, they were eight points behind,
and they found a way to win the game in
the last twenty minutes, which is something they haven't been
doing this year, and I think they will take a
huge amount from that. That was a real achievement. Even
if England did fluff their lines at the end, well,
(11:39):
so be it. That's what happens, you know, heat of
the moment stuff. Who takes their chances, who doesn't. That's
test rugby. But what they have to do is that
they have to improve their discipline, markedly, not giving away
silly penalties. You know, when a guy goes down on
the boord and zone twenty two, you don't on top
of him because you turn goodfield position. Suddenly you're heading
(12:00):
back in the direction of your own goal line again.
You know, the fifty to fifty passes. Mackenzie has to
stay in the zone for much longer than he has.
He's got the ability to rip them open, but he'll
also do things that simply go off script or an
error that will cost them momentum or points or whatever.
He you know, this is a massive opportunity for him
(12:24):
to showcase his talent but also prove that he is
capable of, you know, being the you know that the
playmaker in a test match, because I think if he
doesn't do it in this test then he really is
running out of opportunities and.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Last but certain and not leasting and make this really short.
Do you reckon that Rica Yuanni should lead the Harker?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I got no, I have no idea who should lead
the Harker. I see what you tell I get what
you're where you're coming from. Yeah, I suppose it's all
that business that's made it such an enticing thing. There
is a backdrop to this one for sure, and he's
part of it. Just wait and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It will be bonus trolling. If it was talking to
the all Blacks taking on the Irish and I'm calling
them the Quarters because they actually haven't got a proper
nickname and the Quarters with their World Cup success, sums
it up for me. Tony Johnson, thanks for your time
and opinion.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
As always, Cheers Darcy.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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