August 28, 2025 • 11 mins
The All Blacks appear to have been suffering from a bit of a discipline crisis, having conceded 5 yellow cards through the first two rounds of the Rugby Championship.
Since the beginning of 2024, they have conceded 17 yellow cards - and with the monster clash against the Springboks just over a week away the All Blacks will need to figure out a way forward.
D'Arcy caught up with Sky Sport commentator Tony Johnson to talk about the issue and ways the All Blacks could look to rectify it heading into the biggest game of the year.
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk Zed be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Collecting all black cards when you're young is great. All
blacks collecting cards is not good at all. Maybe it's
a hangover from the youthful days of eating that that's cereal. Possibly,
let's look at what's happened to them recently. Twenty ten
thirty seven yellow cards, no reds. They were already clamping down,
(00:33):
and then twenty eleven to twenty nineteen fifty yellow cards
and two reds. Twenty twenty to the present day forty
two yellow cards, seven reds. In the Raby Championship they've
been given five yellow cards already. Box Pomas one h
Wallabies not a sausage, because of course the pure is
(00:55):
driven sial, don't they the Wallabies. So Cam McMillan wrote
an article and he crunched some numbers. Under Scott Robertson,
ABS have ended the match seven times with fourteen players
all less. That is madness. They never ended the match
against an opponent with fourteen players or less. Abe scoreline
(01:16):
went down a player or more sixteen fifty one AB
score I want an upper player more twenty eight to
five it's a problem and it's a creeping death. I'm
joined now by Tony Johnson, skysport commentator on analyst frequency
frequently covers the All Blacks. Tony, welcome. Let's take a
(01:39):
look at this huge issue in the All Blacks, the discipline,
the card collection. We know we don't want those cards
have got no faces on them. How do we carry this?
What's actually happening?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Do you think TJ Hi Darcy? Well, it's certainly becoming
a massive issue for the All Blacks because they lost
a Test match last weekend and yellow cards was a
major factor. It's an inevitability of the game that from
time to time cards going to be given up, but
not with the frequency that they have. Was it five
yellow cards in two matches already in the Rugby Championship.
(02:13):
I think the total last year was seven for the
Rugby Championship, twelve for the season. So it's a problem
that's not going away and it will have to go away.
And it really comes down to individual responsibility in the moment,
a lot of the type. Sometimes you'll get a guy,
you'll take one for the team. It'll be almost sort
of accidental. There are sometimes situations where it's almost unavoidable.
(02:35):
But a lot of these are situations that simply need
to be avoided in the heat of the moment because
they have the potential to cost a team a match.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
You remember the whole red head blue head and how
you operate under systems of stress. It appears that the
red head is starting to dominate. You look at the
severa Reese for example, even Will Jordan running in the way.
These are mistakes that season professional players just shouldn't make.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, I don't want to sort of sound like I'm
having a total go at Sevu Reese, but in a
funny sort of a way. He also had a hand
in the Will Jawn too, because he made a really
bad defensive Reed came flying and off his wing and
then lost his footing and that left Jordan exposed. They
had a two on one. The one kicked the ball
ahead and that's when Jordan moved into his line and
(03:20):
it was enough for a penalty and a yellow card.
And I don't think you could argue with that. And then,
of course, later on in the game, situation where Reese
got himself into it into no man's land and just
instinctively stuck out a hand I get the feeling sometimes
that this might be a little bit of a reflection
of what goes on in Super rugby when you're playing
(03:40):
for a really good team that's got the ability to
ride through stressful moments caused by the fact that you've
got a bloke in the bin a good enough team
to fight through that, or maybe even situations where you
might get away with something in a Super rugby match,
but you're not going to get away with them in
test matches. And I think the worst thing is that
these disciplinary lapses kind of tend to feed on themselves
(04:04):
and they create a situation where you know, you almost
wonder whether the officials are almost looking for these sorts
of things to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I don't want to blame individuals because this is a
group issue, and if mentioned them on they stilled out
last weekend. But you look since twenty twenty forty two
yellow cards and seven red cards, there have to be
some argument that says the officials are coming down hard.
But you'd think that the other teams would have experienced
the same situation. From what you're saying, are we looking
(04:34):
at winding back to super rugby and organizing it at
that level? Before it drifts through.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, well, you know that's where a lot of habits
probably get formed for some of these players. But just
to take your point about the scrutiny on the All Blacks,
I don't there's any doubt. This is probably going to
sound a little bit paranoid to some people, but I
don't think there's any doubt that the constant complaining about
the All Blacks when they were at their most successful.
You heard it all the time. I mean, we even
had the boss of South African rugby claiming that the
(05:03):
All Blacks were getting away with stuff. And you know,
people like Eddie Jones and Michael Checker and Clive Woodward
and you named them. They just banged on and on
and on about it to the point where I think
it gained some traction. I really do believe that, and
I think there have been times in that period of
time that you talk about where I think the All
Blacks have probably been subject to undue scrutiny, just something
(05:26):
that happens to really successful teams. People look at them
and they you see a guy like Richie mccaudy was
the absolute master, playing right on the line of the
law and sometimes beyond that, and he was often the
target of a lot of it. I mean, you think
heating going into the World Cup final in twenty fifteen,
there was a headline in one of the Australian papers
about it, so you know, definitely that sort of thing
(05:50):
gains traction. But my thought was that the biggest, you know,
the thing about Richie mccawy is that he was very
very smart. He worked the referees out, knew exactly where
the line was and Taylor accordingly, and if he did that,
then so too did so too did George Smith. Probably
just about every other great player ever wore that jersey
as well. But no, honestly, I do believe that there
(06:12):
was a period where I think they came under undue
scrutiny as a consequence of the noise that was constantly
being made about them. But now I think it's different.
I think it's moved on from that. I just think
it now it's a team that's making rash judgments or
rash decisions in the heat of the moment, and it's
something that has to be sorted out because the test
(06:33):
matches that they've got coming up against the likes of
South Africa and Australia. If they spend periods of the
game with fourteen or even thirteen players on the field
and they're going to get beaten.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Sixty four thousand dollars, question, good luck with it? How
do you stop it? What do they have to do
from a coaching perspective, because it has to start. I
don't know what they're putting in place, but is there
any way through this for an immediate.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, they have to sit down and figure that out.
That's what they're there for. And it was a hallmark
of the Graham Henry era probably the stevens An era
as well, that when things started going wrong, they would
sit down and they were forced to have a think
about what they were doing, the players they were picking,
the tactics that they were trying, whether they were managing
(07:19):
the situation right. And we saw that after the series
in two thousand and nine when the All Blacks got
beaten three times by the spring Box and they had
to have a major rethink about things. And out of
that came the back three of Dad Jane Kahui that
they played at the World Cup. But the coaches themselves
shuffled their roles around a little bit. That's the challenge
(07:39):
facing this coaching team. I just don't think they can
expect to go out there in these next few Test
matches with the same riding instructions, the same players, the
same plan and expect things to naturally come right. It
has to be addressed and this is one of the
big challenges facing this group at the moment. Look, if
they sort it out, I think that this is the
potential to be a really, really strong team. This is
(08:01):
a team that's got the potential to win the Rugby
Championship this year, retain the Bleedder's Low Cup, go on
and have a good ending to it if they can
sit down and address these issues that hadn't been so
damaging up until last weekend that they'd cost them a
Test match. They'd won four in a row. It was
a good start to the year. But I guess they
all caught it all caught up with them in the
(08:22):
face of what we do need to acknowledge. Darcy was
an outstanding second Test performance by the Pumbers, and let's
not forget that that a lot of the mistakes that
they made were due to the relentless pressure that the
Plummers were putting on them. But yet that they have
to sit down. They have to work that out, whether
they've got the right people in the key positions and
(08:42):
whether the mindset is right going onto the field. And
they've got to work with them on making better decisions
under stress.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Taking into account the way Razes pictures team so far
and the way he's operated did do you see him
wielding the selection acts as a maybe not a direct punishment,
but you mentioned have they got the right men on
the park? Is it too late ahead of the spring
box at Eden Park to make these change I mean,
Caleb Clark might end up coming his way back aga
(09:09):
their are other positions too.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
It's probably the wrong test match to be making too
many changes because these guys have largely played together for
five Test matches now, and you know, do you really
want to be throwing a young player with very little
Test experience into the cauldron of a Test match against
still the toughest team in the world at Eden Park?
I'm not sure that they can really afford to do
(09:32):
that either. I think the first thing is is that
the leaders of the team have to take responsibility. The
standard has to be set. But I think having said
what I just said about making changes, I don't think
they can conceivably go in with, for example, the same
back three. I think they have to make a change there.
You mentioned cayleb Clark. One of his strengths is in
the air, where he's got the ability to get himself airborne,
(09:52):
get two hands up in the air and make a
catch over his head. He's pretty good at that. That
they might consider moving Will Jordan back to the right
wing where he takes a fullback skill set to the
wing all bringing a guy like Morne Nadawah who has
played quite a bit at full back. It's pretty good
under the high ball. Maybe put him there. But I
(10:13):
think they have to They definitely have to make some adjustments.
I think they have to get the balance of their
loose forward trio back as well. And they've also I
think guess they have to have a look at their
back line. They may well have to make a change
in the middle of the back line as well, whether
it's at center where they might bring back Anton Leonard Brown.
Although he's actually been, you know, for such a good player,
(10:35):
he's actually been one of their repeat offender when it's
come to yellow cards. So I mean, these are the
decisions that they have to make. I suppose the other
thing too, is just going to wait until we get
the injury list and find out what the status is
of some of the players who have been affected by
injury before they can make decisions about who starts, who
(10:57):
gets left out, who comes in in their places, etc.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
For more from sports talk, listen Lived and news Talk
sai'd be from seven pm weekdays. Follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk Zed be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Collecting all black cards when you're young is great. All
blacks collecting cards is not good at all. Maybe it's
a hangover from the youthful days of eating that that's cereal. Possibly,
let's look at what's happened to them recently. Twenty ten
thirty seven yellow cards, no reds. They were already clamping down,
(00:33):
and then twenty eleven to twenty nineteen fifty yellow cards
and two reds. Twenty twenty to the present day forty
two yellow cards, seven reds. In the Raby Championship they've
been given five yellow cards already. Box Pomas one h
Wallabies not a sausage, because of course the pure is
(00:55):
driven sial, don't they the Wallabies. So Cam McMillan wrote
an article and he crunched some numbers. Under Scott Robertson,
ABS have ended the match seven times with fourteen players
all less. That is madness. They never ended the match
against an opponent with fourteen players or less. Abe scoreline
(01:16):
went down a player or more sixteen fifty one AB
score I want an upper player more twenty eight to
five it's a problem and it's a creeping death. I'm
joined now by Tony Johnson, skysport commentator on analyst frequency
frequently covers the All Blacks. Tony, welcome. Let's take a
(01:39):
look at this huge issue in the All Blacks, the discipline,
the card collection. We know we don't want those cards
have got no faces on them. How do we carry this?
What's actually happening?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Do you think TJ Hi Darcy? Well, it's certainly becoming
a massive issue for the All Blacks because they lost
a Test match last weekend and yellow cards was a
major factor. It's an inevitability of the game that from
time to time cards going to be given up, but
not with the frequency that they have. Was it five
yellow cards in two matches already in the Rugby Championship.
(02:13):
I think the total last year was seven for the
Rugby Championship, twelve for the season. So it's a problem
that's not going away and it will have to go away.
And it really comes down to individual responsibility in the moment,
a lot of the type. Sometimes you'll get a guy,
you'll take one for the team. It'll be almost sort
of accidental. There are sometimes situations where it's almost unavoidable.
(02:35):
But a lot of these are situations that simply need
to be avoided in the heat of the moment because
they have the potential to cost a team a match.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
You remember the whole red head blue head and how
you operate under systems of stress. It appears that the
red head is starting to dominate. You look at the
severa Reese for example, even Will Jordan running in the way.
These are mistakes that season professional players just shouldn't make.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, I don't want to sort of sound like I'm
having a total go at Sevu Reese, but in a
funny sort of a way. He also had a hand
in the Will Jawn too, because he made a really
bad defensive Reed came flying and off his wing and
then lost his footing and that left Jordan exposed. They
had a two on one. The one kicked the ball
ahead and that's when Jordan moved into his line and
(03:20):
it was enough for a penalty and a yellow card.
And I don't think you could argue with that. And then,
of course, later on in the game, situation where Reese
got himself into it into no man's land and just
instinctively stuck out a hand I get the feeling sometimes
that this might be a little bit of a reflection
of what goes on in Super rugby when you're playing
(03:40):
for a really good team that's got the ability to
ride through stressful moments caused by the fact that you've
got a bloke in the bin a good enough team
to fight through that, or maybe even situations where you
might get away with something in a Super rugby match,
but you're not going to get away with them in
test matches. And I think the worst thing is that
these disciplinary lapses kind of tend to feed on themselves
(04:04):
and they create a situation where you know, you almost
wonder whether the officials are almost looking for these sorts
of things to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I don't want to blame individuals because this is a
group issue, and if mentioned them on they stilled out
last weekend. But you look since twenty twenty forty two
yellow cards and seven red cards, there have to be
some argument that says the officials are coming down hard.
But you'd think that the other teams would have experienced
the same situation. From what you're saying, are we looking
(04:34):
at winding back to super rugby and organizing it at
that level? Before it drifts through.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, well, you know that's where a lot of habits
probably get formed for some of these players. But just
to take your point about the scrutiny on the All Blacks,
I don't there's any doubt. This is probably going to
sound a little bit paranoid to some people, but I
don't think there's any doubt that the constant complaining about
the All Blacks when they were at their most successful.
You heard it all the time. I mean, we even
had the boss of South African rugby claiming that the
(05:03):
All Blacks were getting away with stuff. And you know,
people like Eddie Jones and Michael Checker and Clive Woodward
and you named them. They just banged on and on
and on about it to the point where I think
it gained some traction. I really do believe that, and
I think there have been times in that period of
time that you talk about where I think the All
Blacks have probably been subject to undue scrutiny, just something
(05:26):
that happens to really successful teams. People look at them
and they you see a guy like Richie mccaudy was
the absolute master, playing right on the line of the
law and sometimes beyond that, and he was often the
target of a lot of it. I mean, you think
heating going into the World Cup final in twenty fifteen,
there was a headline in one of the Australian papers
about it, so you know, definitely that sort of thing
(05:50):
gains traction. But my thought was that the biggest, you know,
the thing about Richie mccawy is that he was very
very smart. He worked the referees out, knew exactly where
the line was and Taylor accordingly, and if he did that,
then so too did so too did George Smith. Probably
just about every other great player ever wore that jersey
as well. But no, honestly, I do believe that there
(06:12):
was a period where I think they came under undue
scrutiny as a consequence of the noise that was constantly
being made about them. But now I think it's different.
I think it's moved on from that. I just think
it now it's a team that's making rash judgments or
rash decisions in the heat of the moment, and it's
something that has to be sorted out because the test
(06:33):
matches that they've got coming up against the likes of
South Africa and Australia. If they spend periods of the
game with fourteen or even thirteen players on the field
and they're going to get beaten.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Sixty four thousand dollars, question, good luck with it? How
do you stop it? What do they have to do
from a coaching perspective, because it has to start. I
don't know what they're putting in place, but is there
any way through this for an immediate.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, they have to sit down and figure that out.
That's what they're there for. And it was a hallmark
of the Graham Henry era probably the stevens An era
as well, that when things started going wrong, they would
sit down and they were forced to have a think
about what they were doing, the players they were picking,
the tactics that they were trying, whether they were managing
(07:19):
the situation right. And we saw that after the series
in two thousand and nine when the All Blacks got
beaten three times by the spring Box and they had
to have a major rethink about things. And out of
that came the back three of Dad Jane Kahui that
they played at the World Cup. But the coaches themselves
shuffled their roles around a little bit. That's the challenge
(07:39):
facing this coaching team. I just don't think they can
expect to go out there in these next few Test
matches with the same riding instructions, the same players, the
same plan and expect things to naturally come right. It
has to be addressed and this is one of the
big challenges facing this group at the moment. Look, if
they sort it out, I think that this is the
potential to be a really, really strong team. This is
(08:01):
a team that's got the potential to win the Rugby
Championship this year, retain the Bleedder's Low Cup, go on
and have a good ending to it if they can
sit down and address these issues that hadn't been so
damaging up until last weekend that they'd cost them a
Test match. They'd won four in a row. It was
a good start to the year. But I guess they
all caught it all caught up with them in the
(08:22):
face of what we do need to acknowledge. Darcy was
an outstanding second Test performance by the Pumbers, and let's
not forget that that a lot of the mistakes that
they made were due to the relentless pressure that the
Plummers were putting on them. But yet that they have
to sit down. They have to work that out, whether
they've got the right people in the key positions and
(08:42):
whether the mindset is right going onto the field. And
they've got to work with them on making better decisions
under stress.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Taking into account the way Razes pictures team so far
and the way he's operated did do you see him
wielding the selection acts as a maybe not a direct punishment,
but you mentioned have they got the right men on
the park? Is it too late ahead of the spring
box at Eden Park to make these change I mean,
Caleb Clark might end up coming his way back aga
(09:09):
their are other positions too.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
It's probably the wrong test match to be making too
many changes because these guys have largely played together for
five Test matches now, and you know, do you really
want to be throwing a young player with very little
Test experience into the cauldron of a Test match against
still the toughest team in the world at Eden Park?
I'm not sure that they can really afford to do
(09:32):
that either. I think the first thing is is that
the leaders of the team have to take responsibility. The
standard has to be set. But I think having said
what I just said about making changes, I don't think
they can conceivably go in with, for example, the same
back three. I think they have to make a change there.
You mentioned cayleb Clark. One of his strengths is in
the air, where he's got the ability to get himself airborne,
(09:52):
get two hands up in the air and make a
catch over his head. He's pretty good at that. That
they might consider moving Will Jordan back to the right
wing where he takes a fullback skill set to the
wing all bringing a guy like Morne Nadawah who has
played quite a bit at full back. It's pretty good
under the high ball. Maybe put him there. But I
(10:13):
think they have to They definitely have to make some adjustments.
I think they have to get the balance of their
loose forward trio back as well. And they've also I
think guess they have to have a look at their
back line. They may well have to make a change
in the middle of the back line as well, whether
it's at center where they might bring back Anton Leonard Brown.
Although he's actually been, you know, for such a good player,
(10:35):
he's actually been one of their repeat offender when it's
come to yellow cards. So I mean, these are the
decisions that they have to make. I suppose the other
thing too, is just going to wait until we get
the injury list and find out what the status is
of some of the players who have been affected by
injury before they can make decisions about who starts, who
(10:57):
gets left out, who comes in in their places, etc.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
For more from sports talk, listen Lived and news Talk
sai'd be from seven pm weekdays. Follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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