May 14, 2025 • 42 mins
The Technology Users Association has issued a stark warning that New Zealand risks falling further behind in the global digital economy unless the government urgently reforms its approach to digital and technology skills, with a particular focus on vocational training.
In a wide-ranging interview on this week’s episode of The Business of Tech, TUANZ CEO Craig Young expressed deep frustration at the lack of strategic leadership and investment in building the local tech talent pipeline, calling current government proposals “disappointing” and “a step backwards” for the industry.
“We’ve missed a trick here,” Young said, referring to the government’s plan to wind down the Workforce Development Councils and replace them with new industry standards boards that largely ignore the unique needs of the digital and creative sectors. We also delve into AI, cybersecurity, and the digital divide as we unpack the pressing issues outlined in the latest TUANZ digital priorities report. All that and more on episode 98 of The Business of Tech.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing
areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high
salaries for those employed in it. So do we have
the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope,
not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's
episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business,
(00:27):
we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the
tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce
and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and
brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My
guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the
long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association
(00:50):
of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has
done great work over the years on behalf of consumers
on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for
greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital
Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of
tech leaders looking at what we need to do in
(01:13):
the tech and digital space to really advance our aims
as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with
no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the
country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report
that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get
dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose.
(01:36):
But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap.
The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships
and the like what's known as vocational education. It has
a plan to create a group of industry skills boards.
But where do tech and the creative economy fit in
(01:57):
while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig,
who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for
the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to
double exports from over the next ten years. So here's
the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young,
(02:23):
Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig,
I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you
for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been
meaning to have you on the show because you're doing
such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been
around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember
as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of
Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a
(02:47):
great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But
just give us a little bit of background about Two
Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years.
You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where
that time's gone because every year is so different. You know,
we've been through quite a lot during that time as well.
I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around
for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet,
but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as
the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other
(03:22):
organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones
that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around
for a little while. You know, we were the Taic
Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties
and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue
in MAHI that needed to be done for users across
the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we
(03:46):
saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we
sort of got to the point of when I started
where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the
overall war, if you want to put it that way,
but when that batt also we had to sort of
reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we
changed the tar in our name to technology because we
(04:07):
recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader
tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in
a big way to being much more than just you know,
making phone calls and text messages.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were
integral in the early days to actually winning that war
around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know,
the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer
was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a
(04:44):
debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's
become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every
year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just
been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've
got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration.
(05:05):
This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty
six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some
big names in there. If you flick through the report
and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of
these people. They're really smart people, and I just get
a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of
(05:27):
the issues that we face in the lack of progress
in the digital space. There are some strengths in there,
and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know,
in terms of where we're at in terms of our
digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand.
What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about
the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness,
You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that
we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly,
you know the structural separation of course on a telecom
the interesting just in a side there. I was actually
at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand
(06:07):
is a small place, so you move from one side
to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs.
You know, there is some really amazing things happening in
New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen
to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed
broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so
(06:27):
many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking
up those services, you know, more and more, where as
individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID,
you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV.
But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know,
the difference between when I started and now on international cables,
(06:50):
the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand,
so our connections to the world is so much better
and we see more of those occurring as well. So
you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure.
We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but
we really do have great connectivity to the rest of
the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks
(07:11):
and we're going to see some upgrades to those later
in the year when they all build their what's called
a standalone core so that's the core of the network
will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able
to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us.
We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we
shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff
(07:35):
that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG.
You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important
when it comes to the further out you get from urban.
So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the
things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot,
and we have some very smart people. We just don't
have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles.
(07:58):
And look, one of the interesting things was after writing
the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in
on what you think should happen next. And one of
our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is
AI tool you know, can you tell me what the
sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came
(08:18):
about at six out of ten, So it's not a
completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk
to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we
sit in the world, they do put us at about
a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know,
we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access,
although you were a little bit behind on the open
banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is
still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues
that we have. But you know, there are some positives
(08:56):
there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities
that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there.
You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of
complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech
talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that.
Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be
(09:20):
in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that.
But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all,
which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership
in the digital space. And I've been talking to a
lot of people about that. We've had a change of government,
but we are look eighteen months into this new government.
(09:41):
They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake
up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have
a national digital strategy, do we.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have
a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked
it up and certainly when they were in opposition they
were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key
growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some
some we'll let off a little bit. They did a
lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's
(10:14):
led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I
understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership
of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too
spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't
seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we
certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst
MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know,
(10:39):
the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big,
long document, but it is something where government takes leadership.
There's such a big part of our economy, of our
population and what they do with just even everyday individuals.
Having some sense of a direction that they want the
nation to go in I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question,
what would an effect of strategy look like in your view?
What are some of the sort of first practical steps
that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be
government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together.
But you know, how do you start putting this together.
What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things
(11:24):
that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or
should be included in a strategy.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think what we've got to be aware of and
quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly,
and so you know, if we want to spend months
and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation,
we're going to be left behind. And that is different
from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear
(11:50):
on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative.
It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually
you know, we've talked about that they're a big part
of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and
the digital leaders did as well, that they need to
be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology
(12:11):
industry that will be our export base. But if we
want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's
the other businesses also that need to pick up digital
and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first
place is trying to get those perspectives together and come
(12:32):
up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call
it a vision or just a sense of direction, and
without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did
have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick
document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say
they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it
(12:53):
wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I
think what we need to do is something that will
be able to be flexible and live and change as
we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago,
we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as
we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic
example of something that can just turn things upside down.
(13:15):
So you've got to be able to react and cope
to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well
as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know,
sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time
to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know,
you do have time to get ready for it, but
(13:35):
you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly
you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm
not saying it's going to be easy to sit down
and do something like this, but it is a conversation
and a sense of direction that we really need.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech
community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this
tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues,
had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other,
the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously
she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor
(14:14):
of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's
a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random,
sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a
constrained time in terms of government putting money into new
initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But
there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort
(14:34):
of lost momentum. Will that be fair.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through,
you know, a radious specific section in the report on
the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked
them the specific question, We said, what have you seen
from this government? And that's where things like the invisible
government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I
(14:59):
think you're right. There was a real excitement that we
could build on what had been done and that this
government was going to be really focused on. And look,
no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very
you know, passionate and they are good people, but they
are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know,
(15:20):
a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets
the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know,
on that basis, that's why I think we've said government
leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking
to are you know, saying there's a gap there.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified.
A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The
risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role
to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which
is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk
(16:02):
to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's
frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken.
What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to
as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even
to really take this seriously.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I think there's a couple of things. And look, this
one is not going to go away as far as
I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the
five reports we've done, this has been one of them.
And it just keeps going. And you know, we could
look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about
the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors
that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all
(16:40):
the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI.
You know, on both sides of the of the of this.
I think there's a couple of things that play into
New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier,
we are well connected to the world. We are no
longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're
(17:03):
seen as an easy pick by some actors as not
necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but
to get to go through us to other environments in
other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll
be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know,
(17:24):
I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you
can be used to get access to somebody else, so
it may not be you, But we are just one.
We are part of the global population when it comes
to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And
I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in
(17:46):
particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last
five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one,
and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list.
And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues
don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit
(18:07):
and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just
being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well,
the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is
pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the
forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If
you don't take security seriously, you could end up being
(18:29):
someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been
a couple of big occurrences over there that have I
think should be wake up.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in
this part of the world, which led to legislation change
in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has
been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten
thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is
(19:01):
an issue in terms of what the government is doing.
There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the
CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity
in terms of, you know, what the government is doing
with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your
(19:22):
sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced
we are as a nation to tackle some of these
big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats,
whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or
even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt
us for geopolitical reasons.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd
ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some
really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that
folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses
and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that
it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching
(20:04):
what's happening around the world and the learnings and those
sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate
moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with
organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to
them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look,
you've really got to up the game and get back
(20:24):
out there and talk to people, because that's what is
going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration.
So we're very keen to work with them on getting information,
but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates,
rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also
(20:45):
with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in
Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those
happen here, and I really do not want a large
incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know,
we really do need to get into that and unfortunately,
(21:06):
as I said at the beginning, this is not one
that's going to go away. We're just going to have
to keep working at it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts
are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think
that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is
this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this
weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here,
so we've made it attractive for people to come to
(21:34):
New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a
bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of
course we've seen an exodus of people because of the
soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I
think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government,
you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the
(21:54):
golden sort of visas for people who want to invest
maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in
and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully
we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to
New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it.
And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce
(22:15):
and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head.
Funding was pulled. What have we got now?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You know, I want to talk about the IP for
a minute, because there's a lot of work that went
into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of
IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked
all the IPS on the head was really a step
backwards for technology because we had it was the first
sign of actually working together to try and figure out
(22:41):
what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID,
when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera,
they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite
a bit of work in that space, but certainly over
the last two years they've talked more about how do
we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders
(23:01):
to come back in these areas that we need them.
And they're not always what you'd consider to be general
tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the
AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code
is that we need. It's a whole range of things.
And there's been some changes since this government came in
(23:23):
that you know, haven't really made any real help. So
you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around
post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes.
You know, this government came in with a particular policy
where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I
(23:45):
think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't
worked in the favor of the technology industry. And so
because what we've talked about is there has to be
a number of ways that people can get into this space.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And I want to talk particularly about one development that
is live at the moment. There's consultation going on about this.
This is the winding down of the so called workforce
Development Councils, which were set up in twenty twenty really
as a response to COVID. They are being replaced by
these industry standards boards, and the Tertiary Education Commission has
(24:25):
pointed out upfront there's going to be less funding for them.
These are going to be boards that focus on vocational
education things like internships, apprenticeships, cadet ships. But the list
of boards that they're looking to set up, the very
traditional construction infrastructure, trades, that sort of thing. Then you've
(24:46):
got tech sort of bundled in with manufacturing. And I've
seen a press release from Tuhas and other tech leaders
basically saying this isn't good enough. We need a dedicated
focus on the digital and creative economies, which includes things
like video games.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Absolutely. Absolutely, We've been talking about this for years. So
this is where, you know, if we want more people
to take up these roles within digital technology transformation, all
these different ones, we've got to think outside the box.
It can't just be you go to university and to
get a degree, because not everybody can afford to go
to university, not everybody has the capacity to do what
(25:25):
you do at a university. There's got to be other pathways.
And you know, Peter, we've done some little things where
we've gone and talked to students in areas which you
typically probably wouldn't consider where people would go into tech
degrees and ask them why don't you consider tech? And
it usually comes down to, well, i've got to look
(25:46):
after the family or i've got to you know, it's
not an easy path. I can't see myself going to university.
So these ideas of internships and apprenticeships and you know,
different pathways into this US so critically important for us,
and yet this announcement and proposal is basically just going, well,
(26:07):
we're just going to focus in on the traditional ones.
Well yeah, great, but give us an id ISD or
do IDC or whatever you want to call it for
digital technology, because putting technology in with manufacturing isn't really
the answer. And actually, if you look at it, any
technology qualifications or studies or tech digital, it's going to
(26:30):
go back to the NZQA framework at TEC. So there'll
be no if it put into encouraging these others. Now,
I do want to say, Peter, there are some organizations,
private sector organizations that are looking at these things and
implementing them themselves, but that's only going to scratch the
surface in such a small way. I mean, or credit
(26:52):
to them, but they're not getting a support that they're
need or being able to roll it out further. So
you know, I'm really disappointed because I think this we've
missed a trick. We're mister trick.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yet, Yeah, totally, Like I talked to the likes of
Data Common that and to their credit, you know, they
are putting money into cadet chips and internships and that
sort of thing. You've got the vendors that are going
really hard on saying we're going to train one hundred
thousand people. This is Microsoft, but on their technology stack.
You know, that's understandable. A WS will do the same,
salesforce will do the same. We can't just rely on
(27:27):
these sorts of initiatives. We need to have a strategic
approach to how we build this digital workforce, and.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
They need a lot of other skills other than just
knowing how to use you know, the copilot stack or
the aw stack. They need to have critical thinking because
you know, as we talked about earlier, digital technology changes
so quickly that what they're learning today it's maybe on genai,
will not be what they need to work on in
ten years time. You know, quantum computing will be here,
(27:55):
so we'll be doing other things, and we'll be doing
so many other different things. They might be working in
the medical industry rather than in the in the straight
technology industry. They could be winging an amazing range of areas.
It could be in the agricultural sector. But they need
that capability to think in and know how these things
work rather than just knowing how to do a prompt
(28:17):
and copile it. Well, that's pretty unfair, but you know,
you get in the drift of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, and I think some submissions close on that proposal
for these new industry standards boards on May the twentieth,
So really encourage people to have their say about that
and see if we can make some progress you and
put that in front of officials that basically making the
case for a dedicated digital technology and creative board that
(28:43):
gives a focus and hopefully some targets as well. How
many AI engineers are we going to need in the
next decade. If we don't know that, we've got nothing
to aim for, we're not going to make it.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, and I said, disconnect. Have you read the government's
growth agenda? Technology is in there, and we heard the
Prime Minister over the weekend talk about technology is one
of those And yet here where we've got you know,
where we invest in our people that will make this happen,
We've got no investment and no framework to make it happen.
(29:16):
So I feel like there's you know, they're talking across
each other or not not lining things up. So that's
that's disappointing.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Okay, another one that is unfortunately disappointing is our progress
on digital is our progress on digital inclusion, you know,
paint the picture for us. At the moment. We've seen
a lot of initiatives that do great work at the
front lines sort of defunded, have lost their funding, some
(29:45):
government funding and the charitable funding is there at a
lower level, so some great initiatives unfortunately have gone. There's
less funding for those that remain. We did have, you
know a lot of work which you alluded to in
the broadband space, you know UFB, and the government's committed
to push that out even further. There's the Rural Connectivity Group,
(30:09):
the mobile operators are collaborating, so there's some good infrastructure
stuff going on. Where are the remaining gaps that we
really need to address when it comes to digital inclusion.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Let's start of the infrastructure space. I mean obviously remote rural,
and there are things you know, with copper turn off,
three G mobile going and networks being turned off. Those
can be dealt with and fixed. There are solutions, not
as many as I'd hoped and not as competitive as hope,
but you know, those are things and I don't think
the answer is which I've heard in some places, which
(30:43):
is Starlink's the answer or two reasons for that. One
is it's quite expensive and secondly, do you really want
to pull on your eggs in that basket? And you know,
we haven't talked about geopolitical scenarios, but that is one
of them. I think what we need to move on
from is is this build, build something big, because it
(31:05):
will fix most of the problem. And now we're at
the stage where we need to be thinking outwards in
which is who's not connected, Why aren't they connected? What's
leaving them behind? And if you as a government want
to digitize and you want to, you know, have people
interacting with you through digital technology, you're going to have
to look after people as well. You can't leave them behind.
(31:28):
And so there is the question around affordability for a
small but significant group. You know, it is something that's
that's important to look at. And we've certainly you shared
with the government over the years on some of the
solutions and they could they could look at and we've
tried to be very practical, so we haven't gone in
(31:51):
and go and spend X billion dollars and connect to
everybody we've gone look at those that are missing out
because they're missing out on other things. So you know,
why don't you roll this in And we've been talking
about connectivity being the fourth utility. So you need electricity,
you need water, you need roads, and you need to
be connected because you can't live and work in this current,
(32:11):
this day and age if you don't have those services.
So if you could get that built into that way
of thinking, I think, you know, that would be a
great start. But then you start to think about you know,
inclusion isn't just about being connected so you can text
your or message or do something like them. It is
around how you interact with others, how you and that's
(32:35):
certainly across the board. You know, keeping you connected with
people is really important. But then also it gives you
opportunities to think about, well, I can create a business
out of this. I can be connected, I can build something.
And also you know, as a young person, if you're
if you've got the tools and you learn those tools
and use them, it also opens you up to a
(32:56):
whole new world that you can live and working as well.
Other than just those and went back to those talking
about those traditional industries. You know, if you don't know.
If you don't connect it and don't have it, then yeah,
you can't see it. So where it's hard. Look, I'm
not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. It
(33:17):
is costly in some ways, but we have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and there was an initiative under labor I think
it also came out of COVID really to subsidize broadband
for families that really needed it through the education lend.
So your kids are all in lockdown at home, here's
a subsidy on your broadband subscription to enable them to
(33:42):
learn from home. What's the status of that? Now? There
was talk about that being wound down, then it was
thrown a lifeline. Is it still going, No, it's gone gone.
It finished up last year. Yeah, So I mean disappointing
in one regard, but on the other side of it,
you know, it's like, well, what can we use what
(34:02):
do we learn from that we can take forward? And
again you know, we came back to doing some work
around the numbers and then looking at it and going
why don't you simply use the mechanisms you have in
place with education and aministry of social development to help
people without trying to do something different because I mean,
we're not in the place of creating bureaucracy or regulations
(34:27):
for the sake of it. We really just want to
see outcomes to help people. Yeah, there's an infrastructure divide.
It goes to devices as well, the literacy being able
to use all of that. And now we've got artificial intelligence,
which risks sort of another divide. You know, I can
afford to have a Perplexity account and get great use
(34:47):
out of it and do all this great stuff with it.
But if you're using some of these free tools, you're
not going to get as quick results or as high
quality results. So I guess that's another layer on top
of it. When it digital equity. You've got this powerful
new tool, but who's actually going to have access to it?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, and every new tool is the same, isn't it, Peter.
So every new tool, you know, it can be used
for good or for bad, or you know, could broaden
the inequity. I'm with you too on the you know,
if these free tools don't give you as much. The
other danger is, of course with the free tools, is
everything you load into it goes into the tool, doesn't it. Sorry,
(35:25):
you know, you have to be careful around that, and
if you don't understand that, you may be giving up
stuff that you really don't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Look, we've really not seen much from the government on
the AI front. There's guidance for the public sector, there's
a strategy in the works, and there will be some
guidance for business. But I think this really goes to
one of the key points you also make in there
is our risk aversion when it comes to technology adoption.
(35:52):
I think the CIOs and CTO said, you know, they
sort of rate us a six out of ten also
on our new tech adoption, which is not that flash.
You know, we're behind the ball on AI, so we
have an issue where some people won't necessarily be able
to access it because it's too expensive. But overall we
drag the chain and this has been a common theme
(36:15):
in New Zealand. Even though we've had all this great infrastructure,
we were slow to the cloud. We're slow to adopt
these advanced technologies, which is having implications for our productivity.
You know, after ten years of talking to members and
consumers and businesses, what do you see has been key
to this?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
If I knew the answer to that, Peter I'll be
out there selling it. But yeah, there is, and I
think it's just become exacerbated in the last couple of years.
Actually that this over cautiousness and perhaps lack of ambition
at a national level, which then flows down to decision makers,
(36:57):
is a concern. And all we can do is continue
to talk to them and say, well, how can we
help you understand what's coming down the track. I mean,
sorry to talk about turns for a minute, but we
always see what we do to two pillars. One is
our advocacy work, so that's the external stuff where we're
(37:17):
talking to decision makers, doing media work, all that sort
of stuff. You know, these sorts of reports. But these
reports do two things. They are for decision makers, but
we're also trying to help our members understand what's coming
down the track and how they can make use of it.
And maybe, look, maybe we haven't been as good as
we should have been in helping our members understand that stuff.
(37:37):
You know, sometimes I get the message from some people
that oh, I just ask my vendor what's coming. Well,
that's great because that your vendor continue, but actually you
don't get the breadth of the interest and knowledge of
what's coming. So maybe we haven't done as good a
job as we could, and maybe that's a good learning
for us. But yeah, we're trying to help our members
(37:57):
understand you know, these things as well, and so that's
it's tricky for us as well to keep on top
of everything. But I mean I have I do have
a small sense of optimism that there are that you know,
if you get this sense from these people that is
an issue and it makes them think about it, and
the report is a discussion starter as well, so you know,
(38:20):
hopefully these sorts of conversations will help.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I'm optimistic as well. We've got some great people doing
great things with AI for instance, and U seeing some
of the startups that are not really on the radar
yet that I'm talking to are just doing incredible work.
So I am optimistic about that. I think literacy and
education is key things that we need to crack and
that goes back to the workforce development and that as well.
(38:44):
But if we can maybe finish on a positive note,
if we can craig one major shift, you know that
we might be able to see in twenty twenty five
that could have a positive impact on the digital landscape.
Is the one thing that if we got Shane Retti
and Judith Colins and that together and industry supported, we
might be able to get over the line. That would
(39:05):
make a difference.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I think the one thing I'd really like to see
is around the tech talent side, and it is about
developing a plan that enables multiple tracks into a career
in digital technology. And we have to think about things
like what makes it easier for underrepresented groups, because underrepresented
(39:30):
groups provide you know, there is a good reason for
doing you know, talking to them one is just the
right thing to do. But the other thing is that's
a whole pool of talent that we're missing out on
that could help us with our issue of not enough talent.
So you know, getting more women back into the work
you know, in the workforce, into digital terianformation, making it
(39:50):
easier for them to move in and out things like
fractional employment. But then there's also you know, I think
the vocational tracks will assist with people who are in
underrepresented groups. I mean, we're doing some little bits and
(40:11):
pieces around helping MALDI in PACIFICA. You know understand, you know,
what sort of career they can have, But we're only
a small organization. So I think if we could get
people talking about that and getting some of those pathways
stood up, I think they would make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So a pretty clear call to action from Craig Young.
We need to get serious about tech skills. Not just
importing talent, yes, we'll continue to need to do that,
but getting industry and the education sector on the same
page to partner for better access to vocational training for
tech related skills. So, if you're in the tech sector,
(40:57):
get in a submission on the government's consolation about these
new industry skills boards. Tell them what you think. Let
them know that tech, digital skills, and the creative economy,
which includes things like video games, visual effects and the
film industry might need a specific focus and some funding
support to seed something decent with industry. I'll put a
(41:21):
link in the submissions page in the show notes. Just
go to the podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot
nz to find it. Submissions are closing pretty soon May twenty,
so get one in quickly. Thanks to Craig for coming
on the podcast. The Business of Tech is streaming on
iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with
your feedback and guest suggestions email me on Peter at
(41:44):
Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or via LinkedIn. I'm
there most days. Next week, a Wellington based startup that's
just raised one million dollars, bought a competitor and is
using AI to change how scientific research is undertaken. To
next Tuesday for that, and I'll catch you then
Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing
areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high
salaries for those employed in it. So do we have
the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope,
not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's
episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business,
(00:27):
we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the
tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce
and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and
brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My
guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the
long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association
(00:50):
of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has
done great work over the years on behalf of consumers
on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for
greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital
Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of
tech leaders looking at what we need to do in
(01:13):
the tech and digital space to really advance our aims
as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with
no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the
country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report
that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get
dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose.
(01:36):
But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap.
The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships
and the like what's known as vocational education. It has
a plan to create a group of industry skills boards.
But where do tech and the creative economy fit in
(01:57):
while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig,
who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for
the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to
double exports from over the next ten years. So here's
the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young,
(02:23):
Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig,
I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you
for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been
meaning to have you on the show because you're doing
such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been
around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember
as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of
Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a
(02:47):
great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But
just give us a little bit of background about Two
Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years.
You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where
that time's gone because every year is so different. You know,
we've been through quite a lot during that time as well.
I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around
for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet,
but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as
the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other
(03:22):
organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones
that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around
for a little while. You know, we were the Taic
Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties
and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue
in MAHI that needed to be done for users across
the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we
(03:46):
saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we
sort of got to the point of when I started
where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the
overall war, if you want to put it that way,
but when that batt also we had to sort of
reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we
changed the tar in our name to technology because we
(04:07):
recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader
tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in
a big way to being much more than just you know,
making phone calls and text messages.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were
integral in the early days to actually winning that war
around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know,
the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer
was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a
(04:44):
debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's
become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every
year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just
been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've
got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration.
(05:05):
This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty
six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some
big names in there. If you flick through the report
and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of
these people. They're really smart people, and I just get
a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of
(05:27):
the issues that we face in the lack of progress
in the digital space. There are some strengths in there,
and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know,
in terms of where we're at in terms of our
digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand.
What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about
the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness,
You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that
we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly,
you know the structural separation of course on a telecom
the interesting just in a side there. I was actually
at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand
(06:07):
is a small place, so you move from one side
to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs.
You know, there is some really amazing things happening in
New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen
to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed
broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so
(06:27):
many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking
up those services, you know, more and more, where as
individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID,
you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV.
But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know,
the difference between when I started and now on international cables,
(06:50):
the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand,
so our connections to the world is so much better
and we see more of those occurring as well. So
you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure.
We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but
we really do have great connectivity to the rest of
the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks
(07:11):
and we're going to see some upgrades to those later
in the year when they all build their what's called
a standalone core so that's the core of the network
will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able
to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us.
We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we
shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff
(07:35):
that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG.
You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important
when it comes to the further out you get from urban.
So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the
things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot,
and we have some very smart people. We just don't
have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles.
(07:58):
And look, one of the interesting things was after writing
the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in
on what you think should happen next. And one of
our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is
AI tool you know, can you tell me what the
sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came
(08:18):
about at six out of ten, So it's not a
completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk
to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we
sit in the world, they do put us at about
a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know,
we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access,
although you were a little bit behind on the open
banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is
still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues
that we have. But you know, there are some positives
(08:56):
there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities
that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there.
You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of
complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech
talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that.
Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be
(09:20):
in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that.
But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all,
which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership
in the digital space. And I've been talking to a
lot of people about that. We've had a change of government,
but we are look eighteen months into this new government.
(09:41):
They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake
up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have
a national digital strategy, do we.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have
a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked
it up and certainly when they were in opposition they
were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key
growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some
some we'll let off a little bit. They did a
lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's
(10:14):
led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I
understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership
of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too
spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't
seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we
certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst
MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know,
(10:39):
the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big,
long document, but it is something where government takes leadership.
There's such a big part of our economy, of our
population and what they do with just even everyday individuals.
Having some sense of a direction that they want the
nation to go in I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question,
what would an effect of strategy look like in your view?
What are some of the sort of first practical steps
that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be
government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together.
But you know, how do you start putting this together.
What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things
(11:24):
that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or
should be included in a strategy.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think what we've got to be aware of and
quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly,
and so you know, if we want to spend months
and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation,
we're going to be left behind. And that is different
from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear
(11:50):
on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative.
It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually
you know, we've talked about that they're a big part
of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and
the digital leaders did as well, that they need to
be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology
(12:11):
industry that will be our export base. But if we
want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's
the other businesses also that need to pick up digital
and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first
place is trying to get those perspectives together and come
(12:32):
up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call
it a vision or just a sense of direction, and
without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did
have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick
document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say
they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it
(12:53):
wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I
think what we need to do is something that will
be able to be flexible and live and change as
we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago,
we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as
we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic
example of something that can just turn things upside down.
(13:15):
So you've got to be able to react and cope
to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well
as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know,
sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time
to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know,
you do have time to get ready for it, but
(13:35):
you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly
you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm
not saying it's going to be easy to sit down
and do something like this, but it is a conversation
and a sense of direction that we really need.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech
community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this
tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues,
had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other,
the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously
she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor
(14:14):
of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's
a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random,
sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a
constrained time in terms of government putting money into new
initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But
there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort
(14:34):
of lost momentum. Will that be fair.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through,
you know, a radious specific section in the report on
the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked
them the specific question, We said, what have you seen
from this government? And that's where things like the invisible
government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I
(14:59):
think you're right. There was a real excitement that we
could build on what had been done and that this
government was going to be really focused on. And look,
no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very
you know, passionate and they are good people, but they
are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know,
(15:20):
a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets
the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know,
on that basis, that's why I think we've said government
leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking
to are you know, saying there's a gap there.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified.
A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The
risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role
to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which
is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk
(16:02):
to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's
frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken.
What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to
as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even
to really take this seriously.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I think there's a couple of things. And look, this
one is not going to go away as far as
I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the
five reports we've done, this has been one of them.
And it just keeps going. And you know, we could
look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about
the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors
that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all
(16:40):
the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI.
You know, on both sides of the of the of this.
I think there's a couple of things that play into
New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier,
we are well connected to the world. We are no
longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're
(17:03):
seen as an easy pick by some actors as not
necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but
to get to go through us to other environments in
other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll
be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know,
(17:24):
I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you
can be used to get access to somebody else, so
it may not be you, But we are just one.
We are part of the global population when it comes
to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And
I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in
(17:46):
particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last
five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one,
and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list.
And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues
don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit
(18:07):
and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just
being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well,
the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is
pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the
forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If
you don't take security seriously, you could end up being
(18:29):
someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been
a couple of big occurrences over there that have I
think should be wake up.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in
this part of the world, which led to legislation change
in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has
been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten
thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is
(19:01):
an issue in terms of what the government is doing.
There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the
CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity
in terms of, you know, what the government is doing
with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your
(19:22):
sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced
we are as a nation to tackle some of these
big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats,
whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or
even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt
us for geopolitical reasons.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd
ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some
really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that
folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses
and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that
it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching
(20:04):
what's happening around the world and the learnings and those
sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate
moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with
organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to
them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look,
you've really got to up the game and get back
(20:24):
out there and talk to people, because that's what is
going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration.
So we're very keen to work with them on getting information,
but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates,
rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also
(20:45):
with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in
Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those
happen here, and I really do not want a large
incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know,
we really do need to get into that and unfortunately,
(21:06):
as I said at the beginning, this is not one
that's going to go away. We're just going to have
to keep working at it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts
are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think
that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is
this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this
weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here,
so we've made it attractive for people to come to
(21:34):
New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a
bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of
course we've seen an exodus of people because of the
soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I
think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government,
you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the
(21:54):
golden sort of visas for people who want to invest
maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in
and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully
we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to
New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it.
And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce
(22:15):
and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head.
Funding was pulled. What have we got now?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You know, I want to talk about the IP for
a minute, because there's a lot of work that went
into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of
IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked
all the IPS on the head was really a step
backwards for technology because we had it was the first
sign of actually working together to try and figure out
(22:41):
what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID,
when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera,
they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite
a bit of work in that space, but certainly over
the last two years they've talked more about how do
we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders
(23:01):
to come back in these areas that we need them.
And they're not always what you'd consider to be general
tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the
AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code
is that we need. It's a whole range of things.
And there's been some changes since this government came in
(23:23):
that you know, haven't really made any real help. So
you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around
post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes.
You know, this government came in with a particular policy
where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I
(23:45):
think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't
worked in the favor of the technology industry. And so
because what we've talked about is there has to be
a number of ways that people can get into this space.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And I want to talk particularly about one development that
is live at the moment. There's consultation going on about this.
This is the winding down of the so called workforce
Development Councils, which were set up in twenty twenty really
as a response to COVID. They are being replaced by
these industry standards boards, and the Tertiary Education Commission has
(24:25):
pointed out upfront there's going to be less funding for them.
These are going to be boards that focus on vocational
education things like internships, apprenticeships, cadet ships. But the list
of boards that they're looking to set up, the very
traditional construction infrastructure, trades, that sort of thing. Then you've
(24:46):
got tech sort of bundled in with manufacturing. And I've
seen a press release from Tuhas and other tech leaders
basically saying this isn't good enough. We need a dedicated
focus on the digital and creative economies, which includes things
like video games.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Absolutely. Absolutely, We've been talking about this for years. So
this is where, you know, if we want more people
to take up these roles within digital technology transformation, all
these different ones, we've got to think outside the box.
It can't just be you go to university and to
get a degree, because not everybody can afford to go
to university, not everybody has the capacity to do what
(25:25):
you do at a university. There's got to be other pathways.
And you know, Peter, we've done some little things where
we've gone and talked to students in areas which you
typically probably wouldn't consider where people would go into tech
degrees and ask them why don't you consider tech? And
it usually comes down to, well, i've got to look
(25:46):
after the family or i've got to you know, it's
not an easy path. I can't see myself going to university.
So these ideas of internships and apprenticeships and you know,
different pathways into this US so critically important for us,
and yet this announcement and proposal is basically just going, well,
(26:07):
we're just going to focus in on the traditional ones.
Well yeah, great, but give us an id ISD or
do IDC or whatever you want to call it for
digital technology, because putting technology in with manufacturing isn't really
the answer. And actually, if you look at it, any
technology qualifications or studies or tech digital, it's going to
(26:30):
go back to the NZQA framework at TEC. So there'll
be no if it put into encouraging these others. Now,
I do want to say, Peter, there are some organizations,
private sector organizations that are looking at these things and
implementing them themselves, but that's only going to scratch the
surface in such a small way. I mean, or credit
(26:52):
to them, but they're not getting a support that they're
need or being able to roll it out further. So
you know, I'm really disappointed because I think this we've
missed a trick. We're mister trick.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yet, Yeah, totally, Like I talked to the likes of
Data Common that and to their credit, you know, they
are putting money into cadet chips and internships and that
sort of thing. You've got the vendors that are going
really hard on saying we're going to train one hundred
thousand people. This is Microsoft, but on their technology stack.
You know, that's understandable. A WS will do the same,
salesforce will do the same. We can't just rely on
(27:27):
these sorts of initiatives. We need to have a strategic
approach to how we build this digital workforce, and.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
They need a lot of other skills other than just
knowing how to use you know, the copilot stack or
the aw stack. They need to have critical thinking because
you know, as we talked about earlier, digital technology changes
so quickly that what they're learning today it's maybe on genai,
will not be what they need to work on in
ten years time. You know, quantum computing will be here,
(27:55):
so we'll be doing other things, and we'll be doing
so many other different things. They might be working in
the medical industry rather than in the in the straight
technology industry. They could be winging an amazing range of areas.
It could be in the agricultural sector. But they need
that capability to think in and know how these things
work rather than just knowing how to do a prompt
(28:17):
and copile it. Well, that's pretty unfair, but you know,
you get in the drift of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, and I think some submissions close on that proposal
for these new industry standards boards on May the twentieth,
So really encourage people to have their say about that
and see if we can make some progress you and
put that in front of officials that basically making the
case for a dedicated digital technology and creative board that
(28:43):
gives a focus and hopefully some targets as well. How
many AI engineers are we going to need in the
next decade. If we don't know that, we've got nothing
to aim for, we're not going to make it.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, and I said, disconnect. Have you read the government's
growth agenda? Technology is in there, and we heard the
Prime Minister over the weekend talk about technology is one
of those And yet here where we've got you know,
where we invest in our people that will make this happen,
We've got no investment and no framework to make it happen.
(29:16):
So I feel like there's you know, they're talking across
each other or not not lining things up. So that's
that's disappointing.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Okay, another one that is unfortunately disappointing is our progress
on digital is our progress on digital inclusion, you know,
paint the picture for us. At the moment. We've seen
a lot of initiatives that do great work at the
front lines sort of defunded, have lost their funding, some
(29:45):
government funding and the charitable funding is there at a
lower level, so some great initiatives unfortunately have gone. There's
less funding for those that remain. We did have, you
know a lot of work which you alluded to in
the broadband space, you know UFB, and the government's committed
to push that out even further. There's the Rural Connectivity Group,
(30:09):
the mobile operators are collaborating, so there's some good infrastructure
stuff going on. Where are the remaining gaps that we
really need to address when it comes to digital inclusion.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Let's start of the infrastructure space. I mean obviously remote rural,
and there are things you know, with copper turn off,
three G mobile going and networks being turned off. Those
can be dealt with and fixed. There are solutions, not
as many as I'd hoped and not as competitive as hope,
but you know, those are things and I don't think
the answer is which I've heard in some places, which
(30:43):
is Starlink's the answer or two reasons for that. One
is it's quite expensive and secondly, do you really want
to pull on your eggs in that basket? And you know,
we haven't talked about geopolitical scenarios, but that is one
of them. I think what we need to move on
from is is this build, build something big, because it
(31:05):
will fix most of the problem. And now we're at
the stage where we need to be thinking outwards in
which is who's not connected, Why aren't they connected? What's
leaving them behind? And if you as a government want
to digitize and you want to, you know, have people
interacting with you through digital technology, you're going to have
to look after people as well. You can't leave them behind.
(31:28):
And so there is the question around affordability for a
small but significant group. You know, it is something that's
that's important to look at. And we've certainly you shared
with the government over the years on some of the
solutions and they could they could look at and we've
tried to be very practical, so we haven't gone in
(31:51):
and go and spend X billion dollars and connect to
everybody we've gone look at those that are missing out
because they're missing out on other things. So you know,
why don't you roll this in And we've been talking
about connectivity being the fourth utility. So you need electricity,
you need water, you need roads, and you need to
be connected because you can't live and work in this current,
(32:11):
this day and age if you don't have those services.
So if you could get that built into that way
of thinking, I think, you know, that would be a
great start. But then you start to think about you know,
inclusion isn't just about being connected so you can text
your or message or do something like them. It is
around how you interact with others, how you and that's
(32:35):
certainly across the board. You know, keeping you connected with
people is really important. But then also it gives you
opportunities to think about, well, I can create a business
out of this. I can be connected, I can build something.
And also you know, as a young person, if you're
if you've got the tools and you learn those tools
and use them, it also opens you up to a
(32:56):
whole new world that you can live and working as well.
Other than just those and went back to those talking
about those traditional industries. You know, if you don't know.
If you don't connect it and don't have it, then yeah,
you can't see it. So where it's hard. Look, I'm
not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. It
(33:17):
is costly in some ways, but we have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and there was an initiative under labor I think
it also came out of COVID really to subsidize broadband
for families that really needed it through the education lend.
So your kids are all in lockdown at home, here's
a subsidy on your broadband subscription to enable them to
(33:42):
learn from home. What's the status of that? Now? There
was talk about that being wound down, then it was
thrown a lifeline. Is it still going, No, it's gone gone.
It finished up last year. Yeah, So I mean disappointing
in one regard, but on the other side of it,
you know, it's like, well, what can we use what
(34:02):
do we learn from that we can take forward? And
again you know, we came back to doing some work
around the numbers and then looking at it and going
why don't you simply use the mechanisms you have in
place with education and aministry of social development to help
people without trying to do something different because I mean,
we're not in the place of creating bureaucracy or regulations
(34:27):
for the sake of it. We really just want to
see outcomes to help people. Yeah, there's an infrastructure divide.
It goes to devices as well, the literacy being able
to use all of that. And now we've got artificial intelligence,
which risks sort of another divide. You know, I can
afford to have a Perplexity account and get great use
(34:47):
out of it and do all this great stuff with it.
But if you're using some of these free tools, you're
not going to get as quick results or as high
quality results. So I guess that's another layer on top
of it. When it digital equity. You've got this powerful
new tool, but who's actually going to have access to it?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, and every new tool is the same, isn't it, Peter.
So every new tool, you know, it can be used
for good or for bad, or you know, could broaden
the inequity. I'm with you too on the you know,
if these free tools don't give you as much. The
other danger is, of course with the free tools, is
everything you load into it goes into the tool, doesn't it. Sorry,
(35:25):
you know, you have to be careful around that, and
if you don't understand that, you may be giving up
stuff that you really don't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Look, we've really not seen much from the government on
the AI front. There's guidance for the public sector, there's
a strategy in the works, and there will be some
guidance for business. But I think this really goes to
one of the key points you also make in there
is our risk aversion when it comes to technology adoption.
(35:52):
I think the CIOs and CTO said, you know, they
sort of rate us a six out of ten also
on our new tech adoption, which is not that flash.
You know, we're behind the ball on AI, so we
have an issue where some people won't necessarily be able
to access it because it's too expensive. But overall we
drag the chain and this has been a common theme
(36:15):
in New Zealand. Even though we've had all this great infrastructure,
we were slow to the cloud. We're slow to adopt
these advanced technologies, which is having implications for our productivity.
You know, after ten years of talking to members and
consumers and businesses, what do you see has been key
to this?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
If I knew the answer to that, Peter I'll be
out there selling it. But yeah, there is, and I
think it's just become exacerbated in the last couple of years.
Actually that this over cautiousness and perhaps lack of ambition
at a national level, which then flows down to decision makers,
(36:57):
is a concern. And all we can do is continue
to talk to them and say, well, how can we
help you understand what's coming down the track. I mean,
sorry to talk about turns for a minute, but we
always see what we do to two pillars. One is
our advocacy work, so that's the external stuff where we're
(37:17):
talking to decision makers, doing media work, all that sort
of stuff. You know, these sorts of reports. But these
reports do two things. They are for decision makers, but
we're also trying to help our members understand what's coming
down the track and how they can make use of it.
And maybe, look, maybe we haven't been as good as
we should have been in helping our members understand that stuff.
(37:37):
You know, sometimes I get the message from some people
that oh, I just ask my vendor what's coming. Well,
that's great because that your vendor continue, but actually you
don't get the breadth of the interest and knowledge of
what's coming. So maybe we haven't done as good a
job as we could, and maybe that's a good learning
for us. But yeah, we're trying to help our members
(37:57):
understand you know, these things as well, and so that's
it's tricky for us as well to keep on top
of everything. But I mean I have I do have
a small sense of optimism that there are that you know,
if you get this sense from these people that is
an issue and it makes them think about it, and
the report is a discussion starter as well, so you know,
(38:20):
hopefully these sorts of conversations will help.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I'm optimistic as well. We've got some great people doing
great things with AI for instance, and U seeing some
of the startups that are not really on the radar
yet that I'm talking to are just doing incredible work.
So I am optimistic about that. I think literacy and
education is key things that we need to crack and
that goes back to the workforce development and that as well.
(38:44):
But if we can maybe finish on a positive note,
if we can craig one major shift, you know that
we might be able to see in twenty twenty five
that could have a positive impact on the digital landscape.
Is the one thing that if we got Shane Retti
and Judith Colins and that together and industry supported, we
might be able to get over the line. That would
(39:05):
make a difference.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I think the one thing I'd really like to see
is around the tech talent side, and it is about
developing a plan that enables multiple tracks into a career
in digital technology. And we have to think about things
like what makes it easier for underrepresented groups, because underrepresented
(39:30):
groups provide you know, there is a good reason for
doing you know, talking to them one is just the
right thing to do. But the other thing is that's
a whole pool of talent that we're missing out on
that could help us with our issue of not enough talent.
So you know, getting more women back into the work
you know, in the workforce, into digital terianformation, making it
(39:50):
easier for them to move in and out things like
fractional employment. But then there's also you know, I think
the vocational tracks will assist with people who are in
underrepresented groups. I mean, we're doing some little bits and
(40:11):
pieces around helping MALDI in PACIFICA. You know understand, you know,
what sort of career they can have, But we're only
a small organization. So I think if we could get
people talking about that and getting some of those pathways
stood up, I think they would make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So a pretty clear call to action from Craig Young.
We need to get serious about tech skills. Not just
importing talent, yes, we'll continue to need to do that,
but getting industry and the education sector on the same
page to partner for better access to vocational training for
tech related skills. So, if you're in the tech sector,
(40:57):
get in a submission on the government's consolation about these
new industry skills boards. Tell them what you think. Let
them know that tech, digital skills, and the creative economy,
which includes things like video games, visual effects and the
film industry might need a specific focus and some funding
support to seed something decent with industry. I'll put a
(41:21):
link in the submissions page in the show notes. Just
go to the podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot
nz to find it. Submissions are closing pretty soon May twenty,
so get one in quickly. Thanks to Craig for coming
on the podcast. The Business of Tech is streaming on
iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with
your feedback and guest suggestions email me on Peter at
(41:44):
Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or via LinkedIn. I'm
there most days. Next week, a Wellington based startup that's
just raised one million dollars, bought a competitor and is
using AI to change how scientific research is undertaken. To
next Tuesday for that, and I'll catch you then
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