June 11, 2025 • 42 mins
As chief data officer for Australia and New Zealand at Publicis Groupe, Maurice Riley stands at the intersection of data, technology, and advertising strategy.
On this week’s episode of The Business of Tech, Riley outlined the trends reshaping the advertising industry, highlighted the growing importance of the "middleverse" in customer journeys, especially during sluggish economic times, and offered practical advice for New Zealand businesses navigating the evolving digital landscape.
Riley describes the last decade as a period of profound change, with advertising becoming "100% data-driven”. While the tools have evolved from direct mail lists and census data to sophisticated digital signals, the core objective remains: using data to unlock insights that connect brands with their audiences.
“It's an old cliche, but we like to say data is just people in disguise,” Riley told me.
“Now we just have that in a different form with a whole bunch more signals at our disposal to wheel together to get to that unlock, that insight that unlocks a great creative idea or make sure that we're getting to the prospects and the humans that we want to reach."
Listen to episode 102 of The Business of Tech for the full interview with Publicis Groupe's Maurice Riley. Plus, Sir Peter Beck's provocative challenge to New Zealand - aim to capture 10% of the global space industry, which would amount to a $230 billion share of the pie in a decade's time!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Rocket Lab founder Sir Peter Beck was the guest of
honor at an event at Parliament last week to celebrate
rocket labs success. The government loves the space industry and
it's easy to see why. It's growing very quickly, now
worth two point five billion dollars and supports around seventeen
thousand full time jobs according to a Deloitte report that
(00:25):
came out last month, not bad for an industry that
didn't even exist a decade ago. But from the stage
of the banquet hall at Parliament, So Peter issued a
challenge to the leaders of our companies, not just space companies,
any sort of company, think bigger, whatever industry you're in,
be more ambitious.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So the space industry is predicted in about a decade
or slightly less, to be worth two point three trillion dollars.
That's a pretty big opportunity, and you know there's nothing
stopping New Zealand from getting a decent chunk of that.
I've written the little texts at the bottom. It probably
should have been bigger texts. But I reckon that we
just set a ten percent target. I reckon that it's
(01:07):
perfectly reasonable that we build an industry in New Zealand
where two hundred and thirty billion. That sounds about the
right size number to meet. So that should be our goal.
Let's make I appreciate your Prime Minister wanting to double it,
but I think we can. We can take turnred and
thirty billion dollars of it.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
The interesting thing is that I knew that when I
would say that, there'd be a couple of sniggers in
the room. And that's the reality. And this is the
thing that holds back New Zealand. New Zealand are great executioners,
Like we can build stuff that works, We're really really
good at it, but we're just a bit shy in aspiration.
And you know, if I was talking in the same
room in America, nobody would giggle that we wanted to
(01:47):
make take ten percent of the space industry. So one
thing that I would recommend here is, like, you know,
whoever the business owners we ever since I sit on
the boards of the companies in New Zealand, the one
question that every New Zealand the company and every New
Zealand board member should ask is show me a part
to a billion. Show me a part to a billion.
And if every single person said in a running a company, said,
(02:10):
show me a part of a billion. Sure, you're not
going to have a whole bunch of companies, but you'll
get enough enough to have a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So you can see why the Prime Minister and Space
Minister Judith Collins love the space industry so much. It
epitomizes they're going for growth mantra. If we hope to
grow GDP and productivity, building companies like rocket Lab is
a very effective way to do it. But how realistic
is Sir Peter's target ten percent of the space industry
(02:37):
two hundred and thirty billion dollars. What would it involve? Well,
as Peter has told me many times, launching rockets is
the smallest piece of the pie in the space industry.
That's followed by building satellites, spacecraft and payloads. That's quite
a big chunk. But the biggest chunk increasingly is the
revenue derived from delivering services in space. Think about satellite broadband. SpaceX,
(03:03):
for instance, is expected to generate around twelve billion dollars
US and service revenue this year, offering Internet connections all
over the world, Supplying satellite to mobile services like one
end z is currently doing in New Zealand in collaboration
with SpaceX things like global positioning, remote sensing, and Earth observation.
(03:23):
That's where the money would really start to add up
in service revenue. We don't play in that space yet,
but rocket Lab is gearing up to launch Neutron later
this year, which allows for launching more satellites at once
and larger payloads. It's a much bigger rocket than Electron,
its existing rocket. It has also announced the Flatlite, a
(03:45):
new type of satellite that allows it to efficiently pack
in a larger number of satellites to launch on Neutron
to build constellations of satellites in low Earth orbit. Now,
given it can build the satellites launch them itself from
New Zealand or the US, the next step is to
go into delivering services just like SpaceX does, in which
(04:06):
Amazon is about to do with its Kuyper rawband satellite
service as well. Then you throw in the likes of
the Golden Dome project, this thing the US is pursuing
to try and protect the country from cruise missiles and
spaceborne threats, the equivalent of Israel's Iron Dome, and you
have a potentially lucrative ongoing revenue stream of commercial and
(04:27):
national security services. So then that two hundred and thirty
billion dollar target starts to look a bit more doable. Now, technically,
rocket Lab is a US company, so a lot of
their revenue is sort of counted in the US, but
I think we can claim that given that they still
have a huge presence in New Zealand. But what I'd
love to see is New Zealand startups partner with rocket
(04:49):
Lab to innovate on that incredible infrastructure platform that rocket
Lab is building and has built. That's definitely one of
the biggest opportunities we have as a country to grow
revenue and GDP quickly and definitely not a goal to
be sniggered at. I'm Peter Griffin and on the business
of tech powered by two degrees business. We're going from
(05:09):
space to the rapidly changing advertising market. Maurice Riley stands
at the intersection of data technology and advertising strategy as
the Chief Data Officer for New Zealand and Australia at
Publicist Group, the French multinational advertising and public relations company
that's one of the largest agencies in the world. Advertising
(05:30):
has become one hundred percent data driven. It started with
using things like census data to target advertising online and
creating direct mail lists. It's evolved into social media platforms
using sophisticated digital signals to tailor adverts to users, and
it's more important than ever now to have a direct
(05:51):
digital relationship with your customers. Morris argues that you need
to control your own data destiny to an extent. We
haven't seen every book for He introduces a concept that's
new to me, the middle verse of the customer journey
when they are buying something. I guess you could describe
it as the middle of the funnel that advertising people
(06:12):
talk about. This is the most commonplace where things start
to fall apart, where a customer loses interest, gets distracted,
and doesn't end up completing a purchase. Publicist is using
data to tackle that problem in the middle verse, and
it's just undertaken. A major acquisition that Morris recons will
really allow the agency to better help its customers in
(06:33):
this part of the world take more money off the table.
So here's my interview with Publicist Groups Maurice Riley Marris.
Welcome to the Business of Tech. Thanks so much for
(06:55):
coming on. How are you doing.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'm doing great. Peter it's great to be here. Thanks
for having me on.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So, Marris, you have quite a long history in the
advertising industry, including extints to other companies, but publicists. You know,
a few years ago you were there, you're back now
you're the publicist data guru. I guess they'd call you
for New Zealand and Australia. What does that entail your
job with publishers this time around.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, So being the data guru, or the daddy of data,
as I sometimes am referred to, means I am ensuring
that not only the group's data assets and technology, but
also our clients data assets technology are future proof and
(07:41):
fit for purpose, fit for purpose for delivering the growth
outcomes that we need today, but also future proof to
make sure, particularly in this era of uncertainty, that they
are ready and resilient for the data landscape as it
is coming at us.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
You know, Publicist is one of one of the biggest
advertising and marketing agencies in the world, and it has,
particularly in the last ten years, has become such a
data driven industry, hasn't.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It one hundred percent? And and you know, I we
it's an old cliche, but we like to say data
is just people in disguise, so using information and data
points not in the form that we know it today,
but has been influencing marketing for years and influencing strategy
every you know, you mentioned my my tenure in advertising.
(08:35):
You know, back in the United States, we were using
you know, pano and direct mail lists and census data
to inform our strategies. Now we just have that in
a different form, with a whole bunch more signals at
our disposal to will together to get to that that
that unlock that insight that unlocks a great creative idea
(08:56):
or make sure that we're getting to the prospects and
the humans that we want to.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You know, that is the operative thing at the moment.
In our current economic climate the same and you're you're
based in Australia is a little bit behind us, I think,
but starting to feel the sort of the chill winds
we've got, the uncertainty around tarifs and things like that.
What's your sort of takeaway when you know you're in
New Zealand at the moment visiting your clients and your
(09:21):
colleagues at publicists, what's the sense you get about what
the priorities are for your customers? Here at the moment.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, look in this market, I think your your your
treasury is tipping growth to start to return the second
half of the year. But you know that doesn't mean
consumers aren't still feeling it every day in the in
in in the aisle. So our customers and our clients
are you know, being a bit more uh cautious of
(09:52):
how what they're spending, looking how the ties are turning.
But I think that the key is that I look
at for our cus resus not what they're spending, but
how they're spending it. So we're seeing a lot more
and having a lot more conversations with clients around you know,
how can I get more with our half? And that's
(10:12):
leading to, uh, can we drive more efficiency around every
dollar that's that's that we're spending. That's leading to conversations
around how we can have more integrated service models. So
creative and media and digital and CRM and commerce agencies
are working together and sharing similar tech infrastructure as well
(10:36):
as workflows to you know, get more out of the
dollars they're spending. So those are the leading indicators that
I'm looking at of what clients are doing to have
that lower for longer, but also prepare themselves for when
growth comes back and they're they're they're spending more company.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
What's your impression of how sophisticated advertising and marketing market
we are here in New Zealand. You know, we've seen
the likes of Salesforce and that really trying to educate
their customers about integrating you know, direct marketing and customer
relations management, advertising campaigns, sort of controlling it all in
(11:14):
one central place. I think that's improving the efficiency you
were talking about and the impact that they're having. But
then I guess a lot of our campaigns here sort
of go directly out onto you know, social media. That's
been the big transition in most places, but particularly in
New Zealand, we've we've felt it where media outlets have
decreased in relevance in terms of advertising. Social media is
(11:38):
where it's at increasingly, TikTok and those sorts of platforms.
How good are our businesses here at sort of leveraging
you know, those big platforms that they don't necessarily have
control of the data themselves, but they they have a
pathway to really reaching the audience that they're looking for.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, there's there's there's so much to unpack in that
question that I get excited about, and I know we
only have a limited time, so I'm going to try
to break it down and also also reserve my excitement
a bit. But we can talk about this longer over
cocktails sometimes. First I want to add to your question
and say, sophistication is not just on the paid media side,
but let's also consider it on the owned side, you know,
(12:19):
so email and website. And when I first came to
this market some ten years ago, I was really excited
about some of the work Publicis was doing and had
done with the likes of Countdown, where they had done
the whole marketing architecture martech that enabled them to deliver
(12:43):
eight hundred unique emails a week. Eight hundred thousand unique
emails a week. You know, that's personalization at scale that
consistently that few people can legitimately say that they've achieved.
So on the own side, there is great sophistication here.
Now I take your point, though, we got to do
better and can do better, and on the road to
do better on the paid side, and that's going to
(13:06):
be of two for us. That's going to be when
it comes to client and agency maturity of the capability
they have not only in terms of the platforms with
the tech, but also the product that the media platforms
are providing in order to drive that sophistication. And you
see both of those things growing on the paid paid
media side. To give you any example, in my experience
(13:28):
in the United States, I had long had the experience
of being able to target at the head end and
household level ads because pay TV cable TV was so
prevalent here. We now have streaming and CTV driving. We
already have the data pipes to allow that to be addressable.
(13:50):
Our recent acquisition of Lodo may allows us to look
at behaviors associated with different ctvs and target ads through
those ct TV channels, that adjustable TV channels. But the
product is also developing. How that experience shows up what
we can do in terms of dynamic content is improving
here and we'll get there and I think New Zealand
(14:12):
as well, and its way to get there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, that's a really interesting category that you've been looking at,
so called connected TV. So we have here TV and
ZED plus on demand streaming service three now or three
plus as they call it now. So those are two
big ones. But you know, when you interact with those services,
it's still sort of like linear TV. You get to
(14:36):
watch a show when you want to watch it, but
you're presented with some ads embedded every so often in
that show. You don't really have the opportunity to skip
through the ads. So you're sitting there watching these ads
and they are just basically the same ads that they're
serving up on free to air or pay TV channels,
and they're not relevant to me. They're not customized for me.
(14:59):
So it's a very an experience to when I'm scrolling
through Facebook or Instagram where I'm getting highly targeted adverts,
and that seems to be a disconnect that has lingered
for quite a while. But obviously this is just an
internet feed. They know exactly who is longed in watching
that show. So are we getting to a point now
where we are really going to see, you know, a
(15:21):
real shift in TV advertising where it is highly targeted
to the individual.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, I mean, there we have the pipes. You know,
let's think of CTV as the muscle car of TV.
You know, I saw a stat that's still sixty percent
of kiwis are engaging with TV, and each day and
CTV is increasingly taking more and more share, So we're there.
(15:49):
We already have the pipes and the ability and the
data for that CTV and those ads to be addressable. Again,
our Lord of my acquisition gives us thousands of behaviors,
demographic purchase behaviors, category behaviors that is already linked to
(16:10):
those CTV providers. So once we identify your target, we
can deliver that add to the most relevant audience on CTV.
That's what I'm really excited about for this market. And
if I'm doing my JOBE correctly, I'm going to get
more clients excited to go on that journey with me,
to target in that way and to experiment on these
(16:32):
platforms with that type of data.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, and that goes for podcasts as well, for even
for internet radio obviously not over broadcast radio. At this point,
we don't really have digital audio to any degree in
New Zealand. So the most you'll see is the name
of the of the if in frequency you know that
will come up in your car. But a lot of
(16:55):
people now are listening via streaming devices. iHeartRadio is big
in New Zealand's true in died me So again, you've
got that ability to you know exactly who's listening, what
they've listened to in the in the past, what podcasts
they have subscribed to, so that all that sort of
stuff is going to influence what they want to consume.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
That's that's exactly right, and that that uh, there's an
idea that that that that that I'm positing that I
call the middle verse when it comes to the data strategy,
that that UH drives that and the middle verse. Look,
I don't often use uh a rugby metaphors, but in
New Zealand, I feel like I have to. So I'm
(17:35):
gonna I'm going to try it and don't judge me
if I get it wrong. But if you think of
the customer journey, you know, like a rugby game, right,
the kickoff is the awareness and getting over the try
line is conversion. But we all know the real game
happens in the rock in midfield, right, in the playing
of midfield. Think of that as your purchase journey. Right.
(17:56):
How it's so easy in media to identify those people
at the try line, those in market audiences. But the
middle verse is that muck and messy middle where magic
can really happen. How are we identifying those behaviors that
are predictive that you can be nudged into the category?
(18:16):
How are though identifying those behaviors that are those category
entry points where we can tell emotional stories around and
have created moments around and still target it to the
precise individual that would be relevant for. That's the power
of the middle verse, and that's the power of behavioral
data when it's linked to CTV and those more mid
(18:38):
and upper funnel channels, that we can start to plan
to start to grow demand, create demand, not just target
people in market that are already close to the try line.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Right, Yeah, that's the crucial But you see, you know
lots of campaigns that are aimed at filling the funnel,
but then actually when you get down into that funnel,
it becomes a little bit more complicated. And it's all
about behavioral signals, isn't it. What are some of the
ones that we tend to overlook that you're helping your
customers identify?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, so a couple examples come to mind, but I'll
I'll give you one that's more of a mindset one
that's a behavior that leads to a mindset. One that
I think is interesting in a a healthcare client that
I'm working with was trying to obviously change healthy behaviors
(19:34):
and get people to intentionally search for treatment around a
certain a certain uh chronic condition. And you could just
go to market and and and and and start to
target demographically, which is what we've typically done. And in
(19:54):
oftentimes data around healthcare is a bit sensitive, right It's
it's it's protected protect the class, and it's not readily available.
But behaviors around people who are proactive about their healthcare,
who are into wellness content is readily available. Behavior Signals
(20:16):
around people who are careers for loved one who are
there and therefore their influential in people's health care decisions
are readily available. Those are behavioral signals we can look
at to say, these are the people we should be
talking to to nudge them into the healthy behaviors that
we want them we want to actually see and get
(20:36):
to our business outcomes. That's what I'm meaning around the
power of that behavioral data, where we can use that
to understand what's most relevant in this person's life today
and then nudge them into our category. If we have
a product or service that is relevant to.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Them and what sort of form does the nudge take.
They might have seen an advert of something to get
them into the funnel, but I guess there's a mirrored
collection of things that you you advise or can help
customers do to actually get them over the line as well.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, so this is where the uh, the connectivity that
I mentioned earlier that clients are asking for, where their
agencies are cooperating, collaborating with one another, and coming from
shared strategies and shared data architecture and technology architecture. So
we can power the campaigns that are driven through this insight.
(21:28):
So when an AD is served on on CTV, for
ex instance, it's already targeted that same data and insight
that is talking to that personal CTV is carrying over
to when they land on the website, we know who
they are or carrying over to our life cycle comms
in CRM and email. Those are all places we can
(21:49):
we can nudge people to the outcomes that we want. Now,
I am not going to sit and pretend like it's
it's it's it's easy. We so often talk about the funnel,
but we all can admit, as marketers and people in
tech that the funnel is more like le's like a
funnel these days and more like a pinball machine where
(22:10):
we're bouncing around from channel to channel. But that's why
brands being clear about not only what they're good at
producing from a channel and content perspective, but also what
their brand architecture, data architecture, technology architecture can help orchestrate.
And then having that connected team working through all those things,
(22:30):
that's where it really becomes really important for everyone to
be aligned. What are we going after, what experiences are
we going to invest in, and how is our connected
strategy that nuts just people to that conversion point.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You talked about this US based company, Lodo May, which
Publicist Group has just bought, Yes, which is all about
data and AI, and I want to talk a bit
about AI. But yeah, tell us what the capability this
acquisition brings to the group.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, So with this quisition, I'll go back a bit.
Publicis Group about five six years ago purchased Epsilon, which
gave us a really big identity graph data asset that
was really powerful in the US and in Europe. This
data asset, for those of you who are not familiar
(23:19):
with the term identity graph, is basically the collection of
behavioral signals that all of us drop each day as
we're into engaging with different digital platforms and different data
partnerships that we exclusively have to round out a more
whole picture, a wider aperture of who an individual is.
(23:41):
We don't know who that particular person is, but we
know the device that you're on at different signals that
you're giving us to indicate certain behaviors. So with this acquisition,
we now have an identity graph at scale in all
of our key markets around the world world. That equates
(24:02):
to an understanding of around ninety one percent of Internet
adults in our key markets. That's that census level level
of understanding of individuals. In New Zealand in particular, we
have about two million, just over two million unique IDs,
(24:22):
active unique ideas, which is so important. Doesn't mean they're
just sitting on a database somewhere, not that these are
active as the people we can see today. So that
is the power that this acquisition gives to us, not
only around the globe but specifically in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Wow, And I guess in the last ten to twenty
years the real masters of the identity graph have been
the social media companies. You know the likes of you know,
LinkedIn has its own identity graph for me as a user,
which is incredibly detailed, who my colleagues are, who I'm
interacting with for the vast number of kiwis on Facebook
(25:00):
and Instagram and those platforms as well, so they've been
building that. You've got these exclusive relationships to get these
insights into that, but potentially huge change coming to that industry.
We've got the antitrust cases against Google. You know, there's
potential for spinning off of Chrome. There's the one against Meta.
(25:21):
You know, they may have to divest WhatsApp and Instagram.
This is going on in court, you know as we speak,
so I guess you know, there's a long way to go.
There'll be appeals, no doubt. It's quite messy at the moment.
Donald Trump may intervene at the last minute to save
them from the Department of Justice. But you know, what's
(25:41):
your advice really at the moment to advertisers who are
looking at what's coming and what's it going to mean
for the likes of a publicist group that you know
that values data so much and to get those really
quality IDs from millions of kiwis are working with these platforms.
What are you thinking as you say this potential change coming.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, So what I can't do is comment on ongoing litigation
and legal matters. That's above my pay grade. But what's
within my remit is to help clients be ready. It's
an certain era that we're coming in, but there are
are signals with how we can be ready and how
(26:27):
we can be resilient. And I think that's part of
our data strategy. With our acquisition of Lodo may we
are We've talked a lot about the data, but also
it gives us access to a privacy centric data collaboration
room for data sets to come together in a privacy
(26:48):
compliant way. So even if you're not using the the
the identity graph, we now have this piece of tech
through this acquisition where different data partnerships can be be
come together. Brands got different data partnerships with partners in
a privacy compliant way. My job is to make sure
we have a Swiss army knife of privacy enhancing technology, data,
(27:12):
clean room technology, durable identity data that is helping our
clients be ready and resilient for whatever the data landscape
and privacy landscape moves toward.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, and I guess you know. The mantra we've heard
I think in recent years is you sort of need
to own your audience to some degree on platforms that
you can control. So that's why I thinks like digital
newsletters and that have become so important. The more people
you have direct access to rather than through a third
party like a social media network, The more direct access
(27:52):
you have to that data, the richer the data is,
and you've got control over it and in a cost
effective way. So is that still something you're trying to
get your customers to really think about?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
One hundred percent? You need to be controlled of your
own data destiny. So even though we have this data
asset that I've spoken about, it is not replaced my
push of helping clients get their first party data strategies
in order and where they can learn and they have
permission to with their customers learn about them more. I
(28:26):
hope for world where our brands have a trusted relationship
with their customers and customers want to willingly give them
their data. They trust that brand is going to use
that data within the permissions that customer has said they can,
and that that data is going to be secure, and
(28:46):
that is also part of my remit and my job.
And then once they have that data and that data
they have permission to use for marketing, my job is
then to help them use it in a compliant way
and at a scale that actually drives impact. And that's
not a binary choice. There are uh technologies, data assets,
(29:11):
some of which I've mentioned previously that allow us to
get that skill we need and still be compliant with
not only the letter of the law, but with the
social contracts we have with our customers and the markets
that we operate in.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, that's that's a really important point there because in
New Zealand we have a Privacy Act obviously, but you know,
the penalties compared to Australia are very low for things
like data breaches, you know, whereas in Australia after the
Optist data breach and that they really ramped up the
maximum finds if you are negligent and and a data
(29:46):
breach results from that. But there is a social contract
as well, and we've seen New Zealand companies punished for
privacy breaches. For instance, there's emerging technologies like CCTV that
is linked to AI, where you can identify someone's face
when they walk into a store, some of them are
being tagged as shoplifters or offenders. And then later on
(30:09):
if they try to come into a store, even in
a different part of the country, that company can say, hey,
we don't want you shopping here. So what are some
of the issues on the radar for you that are
really sort of centered around that privacy and data security
area that is becoming a lot more complicated.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, I think the core tenets are important, even that
the privacy lot of New Zealand past in twenty twenty
and then the update that's coming that twenty twenty was
technology agnostic, right, and the core tenants remain that transparency
of what's being collected and how it's being used, that consent,
(30:48):
all of these things are still core. And as you
look at the laws around the world and where they're going,
there's still some core tenants that are It's just true
even as you get to the various executions of the law.
So that's what we try to help our clients with,
and we're advising them on understanding what the requirements are
(31:12):
in their marketing, but more importantly take that legal ease
and look at it through the lens of a consumer
and create a great customer experience through it, because more
and more privacy compliance is actually a brand is infecting
your brand hygiene and your brand trust measures. Clients are
(31:35):
not just choosing where they spend based off of a
shopping experience. They're increasingly becoming more aware and choosing where
they're spend based off of the data experience. So if
you have a good, strong policy privacy policy, talk about it,
make sure it's showing up at different points in the
purchase journey to remind people of your policy, but also
(31:58):
your commitment to protecting and using their data in responsible,
reasonable and responsible ways. Consumers want to hear that. We
know they're not shy to share their data willingly when
there's a value exchange, but what they are crying out
for is more transparency around what's being collected, how it's
being used, and clear pathways to opt out or end
(32:20):
at any given time should they choose.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, and this is the theme that's really coming up
in a lot of surveys of consumers here in New
Zealand at the moment. One end Z, the big mobile
network operator, just did one I was involved in helping
write up the results of it, which really showed that
when it comes to artificial intelligence, there's a lot of
distrust there because consumers, their initial interactions with AI in
(32:46):
the customer space has really been through chatbots, customer service chatbots,
and it's been an unsatisfactory experience. They're also worried about
what happens to their data, how their data is going
to be used in the AI context. I guess you know,
artificial intelligence is changing the game when it comes to advertising.
(33:07):
I mean, in one sense, when you interact with Google,
now you're seeing AI overviews. So that's that's turning the
ad market upside down in terms of how do you
get into those overviews? How do you get into AI
chatbots in a compelling way? But behind the scenes, the
data that you're looking at, the identity graph, all of
(33:29):
that information, how is AI changing how all of that
works as well? It's got to be huge consequences of
the generative AI revolution for advertising behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, it put us as we believe that impactful AI
for marketing use cases, you know, needs to be trained
off the best data. AI is nothing without good data
to be trained on, which is why some of the
scarier stories around AI is you know, propelling those things.
(34:01):
With the data set going into training the AI was
just not inclusive enough or broad enough. So part of
our acquisition of Avloda May was to round out some
of that our identity graph around the world so we
can have the best data to train to train our AI.
Same applies to our brands and customers who are building
(34:23):
out their AI apps and and and any and agents.
You know what data are you training it on. We
have to remember, Peter, though, that AI has been influencing
marketing for years, you know, you know, everything from recommendation
engines to look like modeling. Now we have the chatbots
(34:46):
and and so forth, so we're used to it as
as as an industry and consumers, their awareness is growing
to AI has been influencing their life for years, their
social media news feed. You know what I watch on
a Saturday night on Netflix's that's our AI. Going back
to our job of building trust, drive that awareness. It
(35:09):
is now our responsibility not only to have a compliant
data privacy, but to drive that awareness of how we're
using the data and how it adds value to consumers
is the job that we have to increasingly do. I
don't care that Netflix is looking at all my viewership
data to serve me up a really good thing to
watch on Saturday night, because there's a value exchange there.
(35:31):
We need to do the same thing and get on
the front foot of doing that across multiple industries.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and look, we've just seen the launch of Meta AI,
the standalone sort of fully duplex app that Meta release Twitch.
You know, I've been experimenting with and you know Grock
has done this as well, Open AI, where you actually
start to have more of a naturalistic conversation with an
AI bot and you know, the likes of the Lix
(35:58):
and Siri. It's taking bit longer than they wanted, but
generative AI being introduced to those platforms. So we are
sort of entering the era off having a truly useful
conversational digital assistant. And I guess you know the business
model independing that is the supercharged alixis and series are
going to be recommending you things based on all the
(36:21):
data they have about you.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah, and recommending things, but also then interacting with other
agents on your behalf. You know, there's a stat I
think from a Salesforce research that I saw at a
conference last week that one in four consumers have used
AI in a shopping journey so far, so far. Yeah,
So people are getting more comfortable with it, obviously, the
(36:45):
use cases of chat GPT and it being helpful to
them and that that regard everything from helping them work
to providing them therapy. Yes, that is a real that
actually using chat SHEP too to supplant therapists is an
increasing use case. We're getting more comfortable with all of
(37:07):
the ways AI is now at the forefront of helping
us in many aspects of our life personally, but also
obviously on the business side.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Just finally, Mars, as you sort of survey the landscape
in this part of the world, any one particular trend
that you're concerned about or think is going to really
figure largely as we look through twenty twenty five, hopefully
to a bitter economic climate.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, I'm going to take this as a very narrow
trend in marketing that I see a lot of my
colleagues do this trend of constantly debating this what is
believed to be a binary choice of brand marketing and
performance marketing and the two sho never intertwine. No, they do.
(37:57):
And there's been heaps of studies that suggests that both
are important to get that multiplier effect across both, so
brand and performance and vice versa. That leads back to
understanding you know those consumers that are in the middle
and being exposed to brand before they get to in
market as we talked earlier, and that middle verse. But yeah,
(38:20):
it seems like it's a trend of it being constantly debated,
debated year over year, and I think we should just
get on with it.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
So just to explain that, Mars, you've got brand marketing
people understand, we've got iconic New Zealand and international brands
were exposed to and they're great advertising campaigns and that
are designed to promote those brands. What's the performance element
of it?
Speaker 3 (38:44):
The performance tends to be once you've done the brand job,
you've gotten someone's attention somewhere through the journey, you didn't
see it pop up a whole bunch of signals who
are in market for your service, all right, And oftentimes
the planning of those two campaigns or the actually are
planned differently or connected or going back to how we
(39:05):
nudge people through the channel, we don't think of it holistically.
And there's a brand planned and an in market plan
or a performance plan those in market audiences, and there's
a debate of how much should brand be invested in
and how much should performance be invested in? And what
data are we using for brand and what date are
we using for performance. They aren't binary choices. They work together.
(39:27):
They and when they're harmonized. There's a recent study from
the WRC that says if you shift to a mixed plan,
it can lift median revenue ROI by ninety percent. Obviously
that's varies by category of what your entry point is,
but the evidence is there, and there's been heaps of
other studies and evidence out there that proves the same.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So that's really powerful. So it's and I think, you
know we're guilty of that here in New Zealand's and
you know my interactions with people in advertising is there
some of them are really hung up. They're focused passion
is the brand? What advertising and marketing can we do
to uphold this great brand like Whitaker's chocolate or something
in iconic New Zealand brand. It's a whole different set
(40:11):
of people who actually do the stuff. Further down the funnel,
it's more nuts and bolts and performance based. As you say,
But what you're saying is unless you jell those things
really well, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Correct And with some of our clients here in New Zealand.
That's why we have the Connected platform where our creative
agencies are working hand in hand with our media agencies
and to make sure that brand and media plans and
our serium agencies all of their connected, so we can
talk about when we get someone's attention, we drive that curiosity,
where are all the points along that journey where we're
(40:48):
driving that conversion, driving them to kart? You know that
has to be harmonizing together and that is key to
our proposition and service that we offer to our clients
here in New Zealand and around the world.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Well Maris, thanks so much for your insights. Great to
see you in New Zealand. Hopefully the message is getting
through here and we will see better times ahead. But
thanks so much for coming on the Business of Tech.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
No, thanks for having me and next time let me
come down to Wellington and we can do this over
a beer.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Thanks so much to Morris Riley for coming on our
data guru and advertising expert. Show notes are in the
podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot en zed and
the podcast, of course is streaming on iHeartRadio or in
your favorite podcast app. Would love your feedback and topic
and guest suggestions. Get in touch with me via email
(41:45):
Peter at Peter Griffin dot co dot en zed, and
of course you'll find me on LinkedIn. Would love to
hear from you next week. An Ozzie business coach who
has written a very practical book, Cutting through the BS
Around AI, with the aim of giving businesses of any
size some tips on how to integrate artificial intelligence in
a useful way. That's dropping next Thursday. I'll catch you
(42:06):
then
Rocket Lab founder Sir Peter Beck was the guest of
honor at an event at Parliament last week to celebrate
rocket labs success. The government loves the space industry and
it's easy to see why. It's growing very quickly, now
worth two point five billion dollars and supports around seventeen
thousand full time jobs according to a Deloitte report that
(00:25):
came out last month, not bad for an industry that
didn't even exist a decade ago. But from the stage
of the banquet hall at Parliament, So Peter issued a
challenge to the leaders of our companies, not just space companies,
any sort of company, think bigger, whatever industry you're in,
be more ambitious.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So the space industry is predicted in about a decade
or slightly less, to be worth two point three trillion dollars.
That's a pretty big opportunity, and you know there's nothing
stopping New Zealand from getting a decent chunk of that.
I've written the little texts at the bottom. It probably
should have been bigger texts. But I reckon that we
just set a ten percent target. I reckon that it's
(01:07):
perfectly reasonable that we build an industry in New Zealand
where two hundred and thirty billion. That sounds about the
right size number to meet. So that should be our goal.
Let's make I appreciate your Prime Minister wanting to double it,
but I think we can. We can take turnred and
thirty billion dollars of it.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
The interesting thing is that I knew that when I
would say that, there'd be a couple of sniggers in
the room. And that's the reality. And this is the
thing that holds back New Zealand. New Zealand are great executioners,
Like we can build stuff that works, We're really really
good at it, but we're just a bit shy in aspiration.
And you know, if I was talking in the same
room in America, nobody would giggle that we wanted to
(01:47):
make take ten percent of the space industry. So one
thing that I would recommend here is, like, you know,
whoever the business owners we ever since I sit on
the boards of the companies in New Zealand, the one
question that every New Zealand the company and every New
Zealand board member should ask is show me a part
to a billion. Show me a part to a billion.
And if every single person said in a running a company, said,
(02:10):
show me a part of a billion. Sure, you're not
going to have a whole bunch of companies, but you'll
get enough enough to have a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So you can see why the Prime Minister and Space
Minister Judith Collins love the space industry so much. It
epitomizes they're going for growth mantra. If we hope to
grow GDP and productivity, building companies like rocket Lab is
a very effective way to do it. But how realistic
is Sir Peter's target ten percent of the space industry
(02:37):
two hundred and thirty billion dollars. What would it involve? Well,
as Peter has told me many times, launching rockets is
the smallest piece of the pie in the space industry.
That's followed by building satellites, spacecraft and payloads. That's quite
a big chunk. But the biggest chunk increasingly is the
revenue derived from delivering services in space. Think about satellite broadband. SpaceX,
(03:03):
for instance, is expected to generate around twelve billion dollars
US and service revenue this year, offering Internet connections all
over the world, Supplying satellite to mobile services like one
end z is currently doing in New Zealand in collaboration
with SpaceX things like global positioning, remote sensing, and Earth observation.
(03:23):
That's where the money would really start to add up
in service revenue. We don't play in that space yet,
but rocket Lab is gearing up to launch Neutron later
this year, which allows for launching more satellites at once
and larger payloads. It's a much bigger rocket than Electron,
its existing rocket. It has also announced the Flatlite, a
(03:45):
new type of satellite that allows it to efficiently pack
in a larger number of satellites to launch on Neutron
to build constellations of satellites in low Earth orbit. Now,
given it can build the satellites launch them itself from
New Zealand or the US, the next step is to
go into delivering services just like SpaceX does, in which
(04:06):
Amazon is about to do with its Kuyper rawband satellite
service as well. Then you throw in the likes of
the Golden Dome project, this thing the US is pursuing
to try and protect the country from cruise missiles and
spaceborne threats, the equivalent of Israel's Iron Dome, and you
have a potentially lucrative ongoing revenue stream of commercial and
(04:27):
national security services. So then that two hundred and thirty
billion dollar target starts to look a bit more doable. Now, technically,
rocket Lab is a US company, so a lot of
their revenue is sort of counted in the US, but
I think we can claim that given that they still
have a huge presence in New Zealand. But what I'd
love to see is New Zealand startups partner with rocket
(04:49):
Lab to innovate on that incredible infrastructure platform that rocket
Lab is building and has built. That's definitely one of
the biggest opportunities we have as a country to grow
revenue and GDP quickly and definitely not a goal to
be sniggered at. I'm Peter Griffin and on the business
of tech powered by two degrees business. We're going from
(05:09):
space to the rapidly changing advertising market. Maurice Riley stands
at the intersection of data technology and advertising strategy as
the Chief Data Officer for New Zealand and Australia at
Publicist Group, the French multinational advertising and public relations company
that's one of the largest agencies in the world. Advertising
(05:30):
has become one hundred percent data driven. It started with
using things like census data to target advertising online and
creating direct mail lists. It's evolved into social media platforms
using sophisticated digital signals to tailor adverts to users, and
it's more important than ever now to have a direct
(05:51):
digital relationship with your customers. Morris argues that you need
to control your own data destiny to an extent. We
haven't seen every book for He introduces a concept that's
new to me, the middle verse of the customer journey
when they are buying something. I guess you could describe
it as the middle of the funnel that advertising people
(06:12):
talk about. This is the most commonplace where things start
to fall apart, where a customer loses interest, gets distracted,
and doesn't end up completing a purchase. Publicist is using
data to tackle that problem in the middle verse, and
it's just undertaken. A major acquisition that Morris recons will
really allow the agency to better help its customers in
(06:33):
this part of the world take more money off the table.
So here's my interview with Publicist Groups Maurice Riley Marris.
Welcome to the Business of Tech. Thanks so much for
(06:55):
coming on. How are you doing.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'm doing great. Peter it's great to be here. Thanks
for having me on.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So, Marris, you have quite a long history in the
advertising industry, including extints to other companies, but publicists. You know,
a few years ago you were there, you're back now
you're the publicist data guru. I guess they'd call you
for New Zealand and Australia. What does that entail your
job with publishers this time around.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, So being the data guru, or the daddy of data,
as I sometimes am referred to, means I am ensuring
that not only the group's data assets and technology, but
also our clients data assets technology are future proof and
(07:41):
fit for purpose, fit for purpose for delivering the growth
outcomes that we need today, but also future proof to
make sure, particularly in this era of uncertainty, that they
are ready and resilient for the data landscape as it
is coming at us.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
You know, Publicist is one of one of the biggest
advertising and marketing agencies in the world, and it has,
particularly in the last ten years, has become such a
data driven industry, hasn't.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It one hundred percent? And and you know, I we
it's an old cliche, but we like to say data
is just people in disguise, so using information and data
points not in the form that we know it today,
but has been influencing marketing for years and influencing strategy
every you know, you mentioned my my tenure in advertising.
(08:35):
You know, back in the United States, we were using
you know, pano and direct mail lists and census data
to inform our strategies. Now we just have that in
a different form, with a whole bunch more signals at
our disposal to will together to get to that that
that unlock that insight that unlocks a great creative idea
(08:56):
or make sure that we're getting to the prospects and
the humans that we want to.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
You know, that is the operative thing at the moment.
In our current economic climate the same and you're you're
based in Australia is a little bit behind us, I think,
but starting to feel the sort of the chill winds
we've got, the uncertainty around tarifs and things like that.
What's your sort of takeaway when you know you're in
New Zealand at the moment visiting your clients and your
(09:21):
colleagues at publicists, what's the sense you get about what
the priorities are for your customers? Here at the moment.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, look in this market, I think your your your
treasury is tipping growth to start to return the second
half of the year. But you know that doesn't mean
consumers aren't still feeling it every day in the in
in in the aisle. So our customers and our clients
are you know, being a bit more uh cautious of
(09:52):
how what they're spending, looking how the ties are turning.
But I think that the key is that I look
at for our cus resus not what they're spending, but
how they're spending it. So we're seeing a lot more
and having a lot more conversations with clients around you know,
how can I get more with our half? And that's
(10:12):
leading to, uh, can we drive more efficiency around every
dollar that's that's that we're spending. That's leading to conversations
around how we can have more integrated service models. So
creative and media and digital and CRM and commerce agencies
are working together and sharing similar tech infrastructure as well
(10:36):
as workflows to you know, get more out of the
dollars they're spending. So those are the leading indicators that
I'm looking at of what clients are doing to have
that lower for longer, but also prepare themselves for when
growth comes back and they're they're they're spending more company.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
What's your impression of how sophisticated advertising and marketing market
we are here in New Zealand. You know, we've seen
the likes of Salesforce and that really trying to educate
their customers about integrating you know, direct marketing and customer
relations management, advertising campaigns, sort of controlling it all in
(11:14):
one central place. I think that's improving the efficiency you
were talking about and the impact that they're having. But
then I guess a lot of our campaigns here sort
of go directly out onto you know, social media. That's
been the big transition in most places, but particularly in
New Zealand, we've we've felt it where media outlets have
decreased in relevance in terms of advertising. Social media is
(11:38):
where it's at increasingly, TikTok and those sorts of platforms.
How good are our businesses here at sort of leveraging
you know, those big platforms that they don't necessarily have
control of the data themselves, but they they have a
pathway to really reaching the audience that they're looking for.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, there's there's there's so much to unpack in that
question that I get excited about, and I know we
only have a limited time, so I'm going to try
to break it down and also also reserve my excitement
a bit. But we can talk about this longer over
cocktails sometimes. First I want to add to your question
and say, sophistication is not just on the paid media side,
but let's also consider it on the owned side, you know,
(12:19):
so email and website. And when I first came to
this market some ten years ago, I was really excited
about some of the work Publicis was doing and had
done with the likes of Countdown, where they had done
the whole marketing architecture martech that enabled them to deliver
(12:43):
eight hundred unique emails a week. Eight hundred thousand unique
emails a week. You know, that's personalization at scale that
consistently that few people can legitimately say that they've achieved.
So on the own side, there is great sophistication here.
Now I take your point, though, we got to do
better and can do better, and on the road to
do better on the paid side, and that's going to
(13:06):
be of two for us. That's going to be when
it comes to client and agency maturity of the capability
they have not only in terms of the platforms with
the tech, but also the product that the media platforms
are providing in order to drive that sophistication. And you
see both of those things growing on the paid paid
media side. To give you any example, in my experience
(13:28):
in the United States, I had long had the experience
of being able to target at the head end and
household level ads because pay TV cable TV was so
prevalent here. We now have streaming and CTV driving. We
already have the data pipes to allow that to be addressable.
(13:50):
Our recent acquisition of Lodo may allows us to look
at behaviors associated with different ctvs and target ads through
those ct TV channels, that adjustable TV channels. But the
product is also developing. How that experience shows up what
we can do in terms of dynamic content is improving
here and we'll get there and I think New Zealand
(14:12):
as well, and its way to get there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, that's a really interesting category that you've been looking at,
so called connected TV. So we have here TV and
ZED plus on demand streaming service three now or three
plus as they call it now. So those are two
big ones. But you know, when you interact with those services,
it's still sort of like linear TV. You get to
(14:36):
watch a show when you want to watch it, but
you're presented with some ads embedded every so often in
that show. You don't really have the opportunity to skip
through the ads. So you're sitting there watching these ads
and they are just basically the same ads that they're
serving up on free to air or pay TV channels,
and they're not relevant to me. They're not customized for me.
(14:59):
So it's a very an experience to when I'm scrolling
through Facebook or Instagram where I'm getting highly targeted adverts,
and that seems to be a disconnect that has lingered
for quite a while. But obviously this is just an
internet feed. They know exactly who is longed in watching
that show. So are we getting to a point now
where we are really going to see, you know, a
(15:21):
real shift in TV advertising where it is highly targeted
to the individual.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, I mean, there we have the pipes. You know,
let's think of CTV as the muscle car of TV.
You know, I saw a stat that's still sixty percent
of kiwis are engaging with TV, and each day and
CTV is increasingly taking more and more share, So we're there.
(15:49):
We already have the pipes and the ability and the
data for that CTV and those ads to be addressable. Again,
our Lord of my acquisition gives us thousands of behaviors,
demographic purchase behaviors, category behaviors that is already linked to
(16:10):
those CTV providers. So once we identify your target, we
can deliver that add to the most relevant audience on CTV.
That's what I'm really excited about for this market. And
if I'm doing my JOBE correctly, I'm going to get
more clients excited to go on that journey with me,
to target in that way and to experiment on these
(16:32):
platforms with that type of data.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, and that goes for podcasts as well, for even
for internet radio obviously not over broadcast radio. At this point,
we don't really have digital audio to any degree in
New Zealand. So the most you'll see is the name
of the of the if in frequency you know that
will come up in your car. But a lot of
(16:55):
people now are listening via streaming devices. iHeartRadio is big
in New Zealand's true in died me So again, you've
got that ability to you know exactly who's listening, what
they've listened to in the in the past, what podcasts
they have subscribed to, so that all that sort of
stuff is going to influence what they want to consume.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
That's that's exactly right, and that that uh, there's an
idea that that that that that I'm positing that I
call the middle verse when it comes to the data strategy,
that that UH drives that and the middle verse. Look,
I don't often use uh a rugby metaphors, but in
New Zealand, I feel like I have to. So I'm
(17:35):
gonna I'm going to try it and don't judge me
if I get it wrong. But if you think of
the customer journey, you know, like a rugby game, right,
the kickoff is the awareness and getting over the try
line is conversion. But we all know the real game
happens in the rock in midfield, right, in the playing
of midfield. Think of that as your purchase journey. Right.
(17:56):
How it's so easy in media to identify those people
at the try line, those in market audiences. But the
middle verse is that muck and messy middle where magic
can really happen. How are we identifying those behaviors that
are predictive that you can be nudged into the category?
(18:16):
How are though identifying those behaviors that are those category
entry points where we can tell emotional stories around and
have created moments around and still target it to the
precise individual that would be relevant for. That's the power
of the middle verse, and that's the power of behavioral
data when it's linked to CTV and those more mid
(18:38):
and upper funnel channels, that we can start to plan
to start to grow demand, create demand, not just target
people in market that are already close to the try line.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Right, Yeah, that's the crucial But you see, you know
lots of campaigns that are aimed at filling the funnel,
but then actually when you get down into that funnel,
it becomes a little bit more complicated. And it's all
about behavioral signals, isn't it. What are some of the
ones that we tend to overlook that you're helping your
customers identify?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, so a couple examples come to mind, but I'll
I'll give you one that's more of a mindset one
that's a behavior that leads to a mindset. One that
I think is interesting in a a healthcare client that
I'm working with was trying to obviously change healthy behaviors
(19:34):
and get people to intentionally search for treatment around a
certain a certain uh chronic condition. And you could just
go to market and and and and and start to
target demographically, which is what we've typically done. And in
(19:54):
oftentimes data around healthcare is a bit sensitive, right It's
it's it's protected protect the class, and it's not readily available.
But behaviors around people who are proactive about their healthcare,
who are into wellness content is readily available. Behavior Signals
(20:16):
around people who are careers for loved one who are
there and therefore their influential in people's health care decisions
are readily available. Those are behavioral signals we can look
at to say, these are the people we should be
talking to to nudge them into the healthy behaviors that
we want them we want to actually see and get
(20:36):
to our business outcomes. That's what I'm meaning around the
power of that behavioral data, where we can use that
to understand what's most relevant in this person's life today
and then nudge them into our category. If we have
a product or service that is relevant to.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Them and what sort of form does the nudge take.
They might have seen an advert of something to get
them into the funnel, but I guess there's a mirrored
collection of things that you you advise or can help
customers do to actually get them over the line as well.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, so this is where the uh, the connectivity that
I mentioned earlier that clients are asking for, where their
agencies are cooperating, collaborating with one another, and coming from
shared strategies and shared data architecture and technology architecture. So
we can power the campaigns that are driven through this insight.
(21:28):
So when an AD is served on on CTV, for
ex instance, it's already targeted that same data and insight
that is talking to that personal CTV is carrying over
to when they land on the website, we know who
they are or carrying over to our life cycle comms
in CRM and email. Those are all places we can
(21:49):
we can nudge people to the outcomes that we want. Now,
I am not going to sit and pretend like it's
it's it's it's easy. We so often talk about the funnel,
but we all can admit, as marketers and people in
tech that the funnel is more like le's like a
funnel these days and more like a pinball machine where
(22:10):
we're bouncing around from channel to channel. But that's why
brands being clear about not only what they're good at
producing from a channel and content perspective, but also what
their brand architecture, data architecture, technology architecture can help orchestrate.
And then having that connected team working through all those things,
(22:30):
that's where it really becomes really important for everyone to
be aligned. What are we going after, what experiences are
we going to invest in, and how is our connected
strategy that nuts just people to that conversion point.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You talked about this US based company, Lodo May, which
Publicist Group has just bought, Yes, which is all about
data and AI, and I want to talk a bit
about AI. But yeah, tell us what the capability this
acquisition brings to the group.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, So with this quisition, I'll go back a bit.
Publicis Group about five six years ago purchased Epsilon, which
gave us a really big identity graph data asset that
was really powerful in the US and in Europe. This
data asset, for those of you who are not familiar
(23:19):
with the term identity graph, is basically the collection of
behavioral signals that all of us drop each day as
we're into engaging with different digital platforms and different data
partnerships that we exclusively have to round out a more
whole picture, a wider aperture of who an individual is.
(23:41):
We don't know who that particular person is, but we
know the device that you're on at different signals that
you're giving us to indicate certain behaviors. So with this acquisition,
we now have an identity graph at scale in all
of our key markets around the world world. That equates
(24:02):
to an understanding of around ninety one percent of Internet
adults in our key markets. That's that census level level
of understanding of individuals. In New Zealand in particular, we
have about two million, just over two million unique IDs,
(24:22):
active unique ideas, which is so important. Doesn't mean they're
just sitting on a database somewhere, not that these are
active as the people we can see today. So that
is the power that this acquisition gives to us, not
only around the globe but specifically in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Wow, And I guess in the last ten to twenty
years the real masters of the identity graph have been
the social media companies. You know the likes of you know,
LinkedIn has its own identity graph for me as a user,
which is incredibly detailed, who my colleagues are, who I'm
interacting with for the vast number of kiwis on Facebook
(25:00):
and Instagram and those platforms as well, so they've been
building that. You've got these exclusive relationships to get these
insights into that, but potentially huge change coming to that industry.
We've got the antitrust cases against Google. You know, there's
potential for spinning off of Chrome. There's the one against Meta.
(25:21):
You know, they may have to divest WhatsApp and Instagram.
This is going on in court, you know as we speak,
so I guess you know, there's a long way to go.
There'll be appeals, no doubt. It's quite messy at the moment.
Donald Trump may intervene at the last minute to save
them from the Department of Justice. But you know, what's
(25:41):
your advice really at the moment to advertisers who are
looking at what's coming and what's it going to mean
for the likes of a publicist group that you know
that values data so much and to get those really
quality IDs from millions of kiwis are working with these platforms.
What are you thinking as you say this potential change coming.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, So what I can't do is comment on ongoing litigation
and legal matters. That's above my pay grade. But what's
within my remit is to help clients be ready. It's
an certain era that we're coming in, but there are
are signals with how we can be ready and how
(26:27):
we can be resilient. And I think that's part of
our data strategy. With our acquisition of Lodo may we
are We've talked a lot about the data, but also
it gives us access to a privacy centric data collaboration
room for data sets to come together in a privacy
(26:48):
compliant way. So even if you're not using the the
the identity graph, we now have this piece of tech
through this acquisition where different data partnerships can be be
come together. Brands got different data partnerships with partners in
a privacy compliant way. My job is to make sure
we have a Swiss army knife of privacy enhancing technology, data,
(27:12):
clean room technology, durable identity data that is helping our
clients be ready and resilient for whatever the data landscape
and privacy landscape moves toward.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, and I guess you know. The mantra we've heard
I think in recent years is you sort of need
to own your audience to some degree on platforms that
you can control. So that's why I thinks like digital
newsletters and that have become so important. The more people
you have direct access to rather than through a third
party like a social media network, The more direct access
(27:52):
you have to that data, the richer the data is,
and you've got control over it and in a cost
effective way. So is that still something you're trying to
get your customers to really think about?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
One hundred percent? You need to be controlled of your
own data destiny. So even though we have this data
asset that I've spoken about, it is not replaced my
push of helping clients get their first party data strategies
in order and where they can learn and they have
permission to with their customers learn about them more. I
(28:26):
hope for world where our brands have a trusted relationship
with their customers and customers want to willingly give them
their data. They trust that brand is going to use
that data within the permissions that customer has said they can,
and that that data is going to be secure, and
(28:46):
that is also part of my remit and my job.
And then once they have that data and that data
they have permission to use for marketing, my job is
then to help them use it in a compliant way
and at a scale that actually drives impact. And that's
not a binary choice. There are uh technologies, data assets,
(29:11):
some of which I've mentioned previously that allow us to
get that skill we need and still be compliant with
not only the letter of the law, but with the
social contracts we have with our customers and the markets
that we operate in.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, that's that's a really important point there because in
New Zealand we have a Privacy Act obviously, but you know,
the penalties compared to Australia are very low for things
like data breaches, you know, whereas in Australia after the
Optist data breach and that they really ramped up the
maximum finds if you are negligent and and a data
(29:46):
breach results from that. But there is a social contract
as well, and we've seen New Zealand companies punished for
privacy breaches. For instance, there's emerging technologies like CCTV that
is linked to AI, where you can identify someone's face
when they walk into a store, some of them are
being tagged as shoplifters or offenders. And then later on
(30:09):
if they try to come into a store, even in
a different part of the country, that company can say, hey,
we don't want you shopping here. So what are some
of the issues on the radar for you that are
really sort of centered around that privacy and data security
area that is becoming a lot more complicated.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, I think the core tenets are important, even that
the privacy lot of New Zealand past in twenty twenty
and then the update that's coming that twenty twenty was
technology agnostic, right, and the core tenants remain that transparency
of what's being collected and how it's being used, that consent,
(30:48):
all of these things are still core. And as you
look at the laws around the world and where they're going,
there's still some core tenants that are It's just true
even as you get to the various executions of the law.
So that's what we try to help our clients with,
and we're advising them on understanding what the requirements are
(31:12):
in their marketing, but more importantly take that legal ease
and look at it through the lens of a consumer
and create a great customer experience through it, because more
and more privacy compliance is actually a brand is infecting
your brand hygiene and your brand trust measures. Clients are
(31:35):
not just choosing where they spend based off of a
shopping experience. They're increasingly becoming more aware and choosing where
they're spend based off of the data experience. So if
you have a good, strong policy privacy policy, talk about it,
make sure it's showing up at different points in the
purchase journey to remind people of your policy, but also
(31:58):
your commitment to protecting and using their data in responsible,
reasonable and responsible ways. Consumers want to hear that. We
know they're not shy to share their data willingly when
there's a value exchange, but what they are crying out
for is more transparency around what's being collected, how it's
being used, and clear pathways to opt out or end
(32:20):
at any given time should they choose.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, and this is the theme that's really coming up
in a lot of surveys of consumers here in New
Zealand at the moment. One end Z, the big mobile
network operator, just did one I was involved in helping
write up the results of it, which really showed that
when it comes to artificial intelligence, there's a lot of
distrust there because consumers, their initial interactions with AI in
(32:46):
the customer space has really been through chatbots, customer service chatbots,
and it's been an unsatisfactory experience. They're also worried about
what happens to their data, how their data is going
to be used in the AI context. I guess you know,
artificial intelligence is changing the game when it comes to advertising.
(33:07):
I mean, in one sense, when you interact with Google,
now you're seeing AI overviews. So that's that's turning the
ad market upside down in terms of how do you
get into those overviews? How do you get into AI
chatbots in a compelling way? But behind the scenes, the
data that you're looking at, the identity graph, all of
(33:29):
that information, how is AI changing how all of that
works as well? It's got to be huge consequences of
the generative AI revolution for advertising behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, it put us as we believe that impactful AI
for marketing use cases, you know, needs to be trained
off the best data. AI is nothing without good data
to be trained on, which is why some of the
scarier stories around AI is you know, propelling those things.
(34:01):
With the data set going into training the AI was
just not inclusive enough or broad enough. So part of
our acquisition of Avloda May was to round out some
of that our identity graph around the world so we
can have the best data to train to train our AI.
Same applies to our brands and customers who are building
(34:23):
out their AI apps and and and any and agents.
You know what data are you training it on. We
have to remember, Peter, though, that AI has been influencing
marketing for years, you know, you know, everything from recommendation
engines to look like modeling. Now we have the chatbots
(34:46):
and and so forth, so we're used to it as
as as an industry and consumers, their awareness is growing
to AI has been influencing their life for years, their
social media news feed. You know what I watch on
a Saturday night on Netflix's that's our AI. Going back
to our job of building trust, drive that awareness. It
(35:09):
is now our responsibility not only to have a compliant
data privacy, but to drive that awareness of how we're
using the data and how it adds value to consumers
is the job that we have to increasingly do. I
don't care that Netflix is looking at all my viewership
data to serve me up a really good thing to
watch on Saturday night, because there's a value exchange there.
(35:31):
We need to do the same thing and get on
the front foot of doing that across multiple industries.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and look, we've just seen the launch of Meta AI,
the standalone sort of fully duplex app that Meta release Twitch.
You know, I've been experimenting with and you know Grock
has done this as well, Open AI, where you actually
start to have more of a naturalistic conversation with an
AI bot and you know, the likes of the Lix
(35:58):
and Siri. It's taking bit longer than they wanted, but
generative AI being introduced to those platforms. So we are
sort of entering the era off having a truly useful
conversational digital assistant. And I guess you know the business
model independing that is the supercharged alixis and series are
going to be recommending you things based on all the
(36:21):
data they have about you.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah, and recommending things, but also then interacting with other
agents on your behalf. You know, there's a stat I
think from a Salesforce research that I saw at a
conference last week that one in four consumers have used
AI in a shopping journey so far, so far. Yeah,
So people are getting more comfortable with it, obviously, the
(36:45):
use cases of chat GPT and it being helpful to
them and that that regard everything from helping them work
to providing them therapy. Yes, that is a real that
actually using chat SHEP too to supplant therapists is an
increasing use case. We're getting more comfortable with all of
(37:07):
the ways AI is now at the forefront of helping
us in many aspects of our life personally, but also
obviously on the business side.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Just finally, Mars, as you sort of survey the landscape
in this part of the world, any one particular trend
that you're concerned about or think is going to really
figure largely as we look through twenty twenty five, hopefully
to a bitter economic climate.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, I'm going to take this as a very narrow
trend in marketing that I see a lot of my
colleagues do this trend of constantly debating this what is
believed to be a binary choice of brand marketing and
performance marketing and the two sho never intertwine. No, they do.
(37:57):
And there's been heaps of studies that suggests that both
are important to get that multiplier effect across both, so
brand and performance and vice versa. That leads back to
understanding you know those consumers that are in the middle
and being exposed to brand before they get to in
market as we talked earlier, and that middle verse. But yeah,
(38:20):
it seems like it's a trend of it being constantly debated,
debated year over year, and I think we should just
get on with it.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
So just to explain that, Mars, you've got brand marketing
people understand, we've got iconic New Zealand and international brands
were exposed to and they're great advertising campaigns and that
are designed to promote those brands. What's the performance element
of it?
Speaker 3 (38:44):
The performance tends to be once you've done the brand job,
you've gotten someone's attention somewhere through the journey, you didn't
see it pop up a whole bunch of signals who
are in market for your service, all right, And oftentimes
the planning of those two campaigns or the actually are
planned differently or connected or going back to how we
(39:05):
nudge people through the channel, we don't think of it holistically.
And there's a brand planned and an in market plan
or a performance plan those in market audiences, and there's
a debate of how much should brand be invested in
and how much should performance be invested in? And what
data are we using for brand and what date are
we using for performance. They aren't binary choices. They work together.
(39:27):
They and when they're harmonized. There's a recent study from
the WRC that says if you shift to a mixed plan,
it can lift median revenue ROI by ninety percent. Obviously
that's varies by category of what your entry point is,
but the evidence is there, and there's been heaps of
other studies and evidence out there that proves the same.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So that's really powerful. So it's and I think, you
know we're guilty of that here in New Zealand's and
you know my interactions with people in advertising is there
some of them are really hung up. They're focused passion
is the brand? What advertising and marketing can we do
to uphold this great brand like Whitaker's chocolate or something
in iconic New Zealand brand. It's a whole different set
(40:11):
of people who actually do the stuff. Further down the funnel,
it's more nuts and bolts and performance based. As you say,
But what you're saying is unless you jell those things
really well, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Correct And with some of our clients here in New Zealand.
That's why we have the Connected platform where our creative
agencies are working hand in hand with our media agencies
and to make sure that brand and media plans and
our serium agencies all of their connected, so we can
talk about when we get someone's attention, we drive that curiosity,
where are all the points along that journey where we're
(40:48):
driving that conversion, driving them to kart? You know that
has to be harmonizing together and that is key to
our proposition and service that we offer to our clients
here in New Zealand and around the world.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Well Maris, thanks so much for your insights. Great to
see you in New Zealand. Hopefully the message is getting
through here and we will see better times ahead. But
thanks so much for coming on the Business of Tech.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
No, thanks for having me and next time let me
come down to Wellington and we can do this over
a beer.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Thanks so much to Morris Riley for coming on our
data guru and advertising expert. Show notes are in the
podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot en zed and
the podcast, of course is streaming on iHeartRadio or in
your favorite podcast app. Would love your feedback and topic
and guest suggestions. Get in touch with me via email
(41:45):
Peter at Peter Griffin dot co dot en zed, and
of course you'll find me on LinkedIn. Would love to
hear from you next week. An Ozzie business coach who
has written a very practical book, Cutting through the BS
Around AI, with the aim of giving businesses of any
size some tips on how to integrate artificial intelligence in
a useful way. That's dropping next Thursday. I'll catch you
(42:06):
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