July 2, 2025 • 6 mins
The former president of the New Zealand Forest Owners Association says we could learn from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland, where farming and forestry coexist peacefully.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
One man who was meant to be here, but he
stood me up as Peter ware local.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well, he's got.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Farmland down here, are we farm he tells me, And
a wee bit of forestry former president of the New
Zealand forest Owners Association, And Peter, you're just back from Estonia,
Latvia and Lithuania, where you say farming and forestry happily coexist.
Do I take it from that that they're not doing
that in New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Good afternoon, goody Jamie.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yes, spot On and Finland as well. Delightful countries and yes,
peaceful coexistence I called it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, Well, I don't know whether they're caught up with
David Carter and myself a wee bit earlier in the
hour having a yarn about carbon farming per se. I'm
not a fan. You've got a couple of minutes to
convince me otherwise.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thanky, Well, let's frame the discussion to point out the
government and not proposing a ban on planting farmland, Jamie.
Rather they're putting a ban at a mission of new
forests on class one to sixth land into the New
Zealand ets now just quietly existing owners of registered posted
our own forests quite like this me included, we quite
(01:08):
like the idea of a ban on new entrants because
it increases our forest value and presumably will actually increase
the price of emission units in the ETS. Okay, so
that sets the framework, Jamie.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So did we make a mistake by allowing one hundred
percent offsetting in the ETS for exotic pine plantations?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No other companies government back in David Carter's time fought
hard for that. I was at a un Kyoto Protocol
meeting in Montreal two thousand and five. New Zealand led
the charge to be able to do land juice change
in forestry, so our fingerprints were all over that. Hey,
But come forward to twenty twenty five. I think what
(01:53):
MPI proposing right now is terribly ill conceived policy. All
it's doing is serving to in cripple investment and plantation forestry.
But worse, it's directing forestry onto the worst of the
worst of roadable land in New Zealand Class seven and eight.
That's exactly where you don't want it. It's an mp
(02:13):
I have really really got it wrong here. And my view,
good policy would encourage forestry onto class one to six
land within one hundred and fifty kilometers of port by
Delly with a rainfall.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hang on, hang on, Peter, I've got to pull you
up there.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, that would mean some of our best food growing
land would end up in pine trees.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You've been you've been, understand Jamie.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
No, no, no, Well, I don't care what the market stands, Peter.
It's just a blight on the landscape and we've got
o eats. I think you've been indoctrinated by Dennis Neilson.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
No, Jamie, I mean land use flexibility has been key
to the New Zealand economy. You wouldn't want to lock
farmers and emu farming or angora goats, would you?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
No, No, but to talk to you're talking to someone
who had a bad experience with goats in the nineteen eighties,
so I can expeak from experience here. But the difference
between goats is you can shoot them if you get
sick of them. It's very difficult to change a twenty
year old pine plantation into good pastoral land if there's
(03:15):
no money in carbon farming or production forestry.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Well two strands that you're absolutely wrong. If you look
at the sin lay farms around dunsandaled a north bank.
They were all old shell and plantation board yes, well
none you had a paper lime and now the dairy farms.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Well Bill Toomey, who's taken me down from christ Church,
my tech guy here today and I were discussing just that,
how that all used to be pines in the seventies,
but we invented a thing called irrigation which changed the
land use and we can grow food on that land now,
not low value pine trees.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well you've grow pretty high value pine trees f you
plant them within one hundred to one hundred and fifty
k's because it's transport that kills the profitability at plantation
forestry more than turn or quas away you doom. But
just in behind Timaru, those rolling hills magnificently profitable plantation
(04:12):
forests on rolling productive country, and we all forget plantations
are productive, Jamie.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, I know they're productive, and I'm a full supporter,
as you know from the Forestry Awards when we were
last chatting for production forestry. But the trouble is, you
know under your method you would basically have our best
land in pine trees. Surely ours, you said, Class.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
One to six.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Surely that's three to six.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Okay, Well that's still including good rolling pastoral land that
can grow.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Look how much the beef is worth at the moment.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, I look, and it will stay in beef as
a profitable I mean, look at kanger Our Forest, central
North Island, a failed sheep farm because of mineral deficiency.
That's forest owned by the New Zealand super Fund. Just
print money because it's flat and because it's got a
good connection to sawmills and to the port. There is
nothing wrong with profitable forestry. I'm with you. Stuff that's
(05:12):
turn a kays the way they will ever be harvested,
that that should be shut down. But that's a separate issue.
And I think that the data that are over anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Ok paid As a former president of the New Zealand
Forest Owners Association. This new legislation comes into being in
a couple of months time.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
What would you like to see? Throw me an alternative?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Listen. I think Toby Williams and Terry Copman of FEDS
had done their own members a huge disservice. I mean,
for farmers, the one to retire had just dropped their
land value because all the demand's gone. I just think
market principles should stand. I really think the whole issue
is well encapsulated by a guy called Richard Holloway who
(05:58):
wrote Enough with the gestory scare tetics than Farmers Weekly
four weeks ago. That article is worth a read.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, hey Peter Ware, thanks for some of your time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Shame you can't be here today, being a bit of
an ashbert in local. But great to chat and great
to chew the fat on forestry. I think we might
agree to disagree. And hello to Dennis. No doubt he'll
be listening and sending off emails to all sorts after
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Great to have a chat with you.
One man who was meant to be here, but he
stood me up as Peter ware local.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well, he's got.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Farmland down here, are we farm he tells me, And
a wee bit of forestry former president of the New
Zealand forest Owners Association, And Peter, you're just back from Estonia,
Latvia and Lithuania, where you say farming and forestry happily coexist.
Do I take it from that that they're not doing
that in New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Good afternoon, goody Jamie.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yes, spot On and Finland as well. Delightful countries and yes,
peaceful coexistence I called it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, Well, I don't know whether they're caught up with
David Carter and myself a wee bit earlier in the
hour having a yarn about carbon farming per se. I'm
not a fan. You've got a couple of minutes to
convince me otherwise.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thanky, Well, let's frame the discussion to point out the
government and not proposing a ban on planting farmland, Jamie.
Rather they're putting a ban at a mission of new
forests on class one to sixth land into the New
Zealand ets now just quietly existing owners of registered posted
our own forests quite like this me included, we quite
(01:08):
like the idea of a ban on new entrants because
it increases our forest value and presumably will actually increase
the price of emission units in the ETS. Okay, so
that sets the framework, Jamie.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So did we make a mistake by allowing one hundred
percent offsetting in the ETS for exotic pine plantations?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
No other companies government back in David Carter's time fought
hard for that. I was at a un Kyoto Protocol
meeting in Montreal two thousand and five. New Zealand led
the charge to be able to do land juice change
in forestry, so our fingerprints were all over that. Hey,
But come forward to twenty twenty five. I think what
(01:53):
MPI proposing right now is terribly ill conceived policy. All
it's doing is serving to in cripple investment and plantation forestry.
But worse, it's directing forestry onto the worst of the
worst of roadable land in New Zealand Class seven and eight.
That's exactly where you don't want it. It's an mp
(02:13):
I have really really got it wrong here. And my view,
good policy would encourage forestry onto class one to six
land within one hundred and fifty kilometers of port by
Delly with a rainfall.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hang on, hang on, Peter, I've got to pull you
up there.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, that would mean some of our best food growing
land would end up in pine trees.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You've been you've been, understand Jamie.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
No, no, no, Well, I don't care what the market stands, Peter.
It's just a blight on the landscape and we've got
o eats. I think you've been indoctrinated by Dennis Neilson.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
No, Jamie, I mean land use flexibility has been key
to the New Zealand economy. You wouldn't want to lock
farmers and emu farming or angora goats, would you?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
No, No, but to talk to you're talking to someone
who had a bad experience with goats in the nineteen eighties,
so I can expeak from experience here. But the difference
between goats is you can shoot them if you get
sick of them. It's very difficult to change a twenty
year old pine plantation into good pastoral land if there's
(03:15):
no money in carbon farming or production forestry.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Well two strands that you're absolutely wrong. If you look
at the sin lay farms around dunsandaled a north bank.
They were all old shell and plantation board yes, well
none you had a paper lime and now the dairy farms.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Well Bill Toomey, who's taken me down from christ Church,
my tech guy here today and I were discussing just that,
how that all used to be pines in the seventies,
but we invented a thing called irrigation which changed the
land use and we can grow food on that land now,
not low value pine trees.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well you've grow pretty high value pine trees f you
plant them within one hundred to one hundred and fifty
k's because it's transport that kills the profitability at plantation
forestry more than turn or quas away you doom. But
just in behind Timaru, those rolling hills magnificently profitable plantation
(04:12):
forests on rolling productive country, and we all forget plantations
are productive, Jamie.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, I know they're productive, and I'm a full supporter,
as you know from the Forestry Awards when we were
last chatting for production forestry. But the trouble is, you
know under your method you would basically have our best
land in pine trees. Surely ours, you said, Class.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
One to six.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Surely that's three to six.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Okay, Well that's still including good rolling pastoral land that
can grow.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Look how much the beef is worth at the moment.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, I look, and it will stay in beef as
a profitable I mean, look at kanger Our Forest, central
North Island, a failed sheep farm because of mineral deficiency.
That's forest owned by the New Zealand super Fund. Just
print money because it's flat and because it's got a
good connection to sawmills and to the port. There is
nothing wrong with profitable forestry. I'm with you. Stuff that's
(05:12):
turn a kays the way they will ever be harvested,
that that should be shut down. But that's a separate issue.
And I think that the data that are over anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Ok paid As a former president of the New Zealand
Forest Owners Association. This new legislation comes into being in
a couple of months time.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
What would you like to see? Throw me an alternative?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Listen. I think Toby Williams and Terry Copman of FEDS
had done their own members a huge disservice. I mean,
for farmers, the one to retire had just dropped their
land value because all the demand's gone. I just think
market principles should stand. I really think the whole issue
is well encapsulated by a guy called Richard Holloway who
(05:58):
wrote Enough with the gestory scare tetics than Farmers Weekly
four weeks ago. That article is worth a read.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, hey Peter Ware, thanks for some of your time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Shame you can't be here today, being a bit of
an ashbert in local. But great to chat and great
to chew the fat on forestry. I think we might
agree to disagree. And hello to Dennis. No doubt he'll
be listening and sending off emails to all sorts after
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Great to have a chat with you.
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