May 4, 2025 • 10 mins
A former Labour cabinet minister comments on the state of world politics after Trump's victories for the left in Canada and Australia. Is Winston our Trump? Is Labour electable with the Greens and TPM as its coalition partner? Is a CGT/wealth tax electorally palatable? And how is NZ placed as a food producer in a geo-politically-troubled world?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Great to catch up with this man again, Steve Mahari.
Back in the day, Steve, I think you were number
three in the Labor cabinet, behind Helen Clark and Michael Cullen.
Some people, myself included, said you could have been a
prime minister and said instead of Jasinda Adrn, what would
have happened to New Zealand if that was the.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Case, Well, who knows, hypothetical. I think Jessinda always had
an agenda which probably most people the Labor Party would
have applauded if you look back where she was talking
about child poverty and trying to make the country more
friendly to electric vehicles and all sorts of things that
were good progressive causes. The problem they had, of course,
was delivery. And I hope that what would be one
(00:39):
thing about me would have been if I'd ever done that,
Who knows it would have been that we would have
been in a good position to have delivered, because, of course,
one of the problems that whole Labor term suffered from
was the nine years before it, where there were just
constant changes of leaders and not enough attention paid the policy,
so delivery therefore always going to be really hard. I'd
(01:03):
like to have thought that if there's been a better
run up to that time, just thind it would have
had a better platform and we're delivered on what she
was talking.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, but she was at the end of the day,
she was too left wing. Aren't we going back even
around the world to centrist politics?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think that there is a shift there. I think
we've talked just off here about the article by Stephen
Joyce suggesting that we're seeing a big shift in the world.
A be a bit cautious about that. These things that
are driving the right wing, like Trump and so on
around the world are still there. They haven't gone away.
I think it's what's happening is that people are starting
(01:39):
to wake up and that sort of centrist group who
are pretty laxadaisical about politics often just starting to wake
up to say, gee, if this carries on and you
end up with people like Trump. And so we've seen
the result in caund with sened in Singapore, with Senate
in Australia that people are starting to say no, no,
we better be careful about this. But I don't think
(02:00):
the fighters. There's just huge drivers for that kind of
politics to go. And I think the big thing that
we all should be doing is saying the center is
the place that a good government should be, whether it's
center right or center left. And if we want to
avoid the kinds of stuff that's happening in the US
which we ought to really avoid, then we really need
(02:20):
to do something about getting out voting and putting in
place people you care.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
About, Steve Maharri. And that's the exact reason why Chris
Sipkins is a dead man walking in my humble opinion,
not necessarily because of where he and the Labor Party sit,
but where has coalition partners sit. The Greens and to
Party Maori. For a lot of New Zealanders, they are
totally unelectable.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I couldn't agree more. I think the Marra Party, of course,
pits themselves as only for Mary, and only for a
particular section of Mary. Of course as well that they
are quite judgmental about who they feel fits that mold.
So that's a pretty difficult pill for the majority of
people to swallow. And I think the Green Party just
(03:03):
seemed to be unable to decide what they're on about.
They seem increasingly to want to represent a very small
part of the country as well, and that once again
doesn't help with trying to win a majority of people
to a platform that will change the country. So I
think Labor's got a problem with its potential partners at
the moment, and hopefully they're talking with them about the
fact that they need to shape up and start to
(03:25):
talk about things in a way which a majority of
people could accept.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Peter Dutton, let me get it right, got kicked to
touch in Australia over the weekend. He was described as
the Ossie Trump, as Winston Peter's the New Zealand Trump.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
He sort of as I think Winston has always been
a person who's understood that he needs about five percent
of the boat and we used to in the old
days referred to that as the pist off vote in
New Zealand, and that's not a big vote, but it
is about five percent or a little bit more, and
he knows that he placed it there, he gets some
and he gets back into Parliament. So I don't think
Winston's the kind of and they genuinely would be a Trump.
(04:02):
He's too much an old style National Party wet really
when it comes down to it, to allow that to happen.
But he knows that there are a number of people
now that listen to that kind of stuff and they
would be a good side percent and it's a good
ticket for them to get back into Parliament. I think
it's shameful they does it, but that's really.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, Stevenhurry. I reckon if an election was held tomorrow,
this is just my view again, and you'd know a
lot more about it than me. Winston and Shane Jones
would do a lot better than five percent.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I think on this ticket. There after that, certainly saying
James is because he's got a time in Parliament to come,
yet he willn't want to stay there and they could
well do that. You remember last time they started to
rock up towards ten percent and so on, they looked
like they were doing quite well. But I don't think
it'll either be a kind of trumpy and big vote
for them, and they don't think they would believe that
they'd get it. But they know that if they run
(04:52):
on all these things like the woke agenda that they're
now running on, they can get a good, good proportion
of vote and guarantee themselves return to Parliament's what they're after.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Steve Mahari with us, your old mate David Parker is
doing a valedictory speech this week and he'll fire a
few shots no doubt about a wealth tax or a
capital gains tax. I know it's well and truly back
on the table, but will people vote for it.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, I ought to work to something like this because
it's pretty clear that we don't have enough tax to
do the kinds of things and says they want to do,
like run a decent health system and so on. So
something has to change. And you'll notice that the National
Party also are talking about where when new revenue comes from,
whether it's a capital gains tax or whether it's a
wealth tax. I think one of the basic principles of
(05:37):
a fair tax system would be that we tax thing
that anything that gives you income. At the moment, we
rely far too heavily, of course, on just income tax,
and that's not something other countries do, and that's something
we seem to have pushed ourselves into a corner over.
So I hope what the pay does do is come
up with something sensible. I think a wealth tax, for example,
(05:59):
which perhaps has parked exclusively for health and education, that
people who paid it would know that their money was
going to causes that everybody wanted to see addressed. I
think probably they'd get away with it, but they need
to get past us arguing over it and settled out
and give people a good chance to absorb it. Otherwise
to be going into the election campaign where the policy
(06:19):
people are not used to and that's very difficult to
vote for.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
You've got a Gold card and a winter energy payment.
You don't need it. I don't need it. Surely they've
got to do something about the age of eligibility for
National Super and perhaps means testing, not National Super, because
I think it's a universal benefit that people have earned
over a lifetime of paying tax, but things like energy
payments they could be indexed to income.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I agree that. I'm great you said that Super
should be universal, because a minute you start doing that,
you're basically turning it into a benefit and you are
means testing it, which means they're fine whether the thresholders
the costs of almost amount of money. It means people
who don't get it will start to campaign on the
think that other people shouldn't get it, or just into nightmare.
I think it's one of the best systems in the
(07:09):
world to just say it's universal, and you don't get
all of it. If you're still earning lots of money,
then your super will be lower anyway, all those sorts
of safeguards. But I think the other add ons. You're right,
something like a community card would be a reasonable way
to say, if you've got that, then you get the
winter energy payment. If you don't, you don't because you're right,
(07:30):
I don't need it. You don't need it. But it
rolls through, and I think some sort of guardrails around
those sorts of things seems to me to be sensible,
but not super I think that would be silly should
the age go up. I think probably when you look
at people like you and me, we're still fully active,
you start to think, well, maybe in future generations, giving
people plenty of time to adjust it something like sixty
(07:52):
seven is not such a bad thing to do, given
them length of time people work in the age now here.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Hey, let's just finish a final comment on New Zealand
as a food producer, because you do a lot of
work in that area. How well positioned are we as
a nation at the moment, you know, with all the
uncertainty geo political tension, the Trump tariffs all that sort
of stuff. How well positioned do we stuck away at
the bottom of the South Pacific and just producing high
(08:18):
quality food to export around the world. I'd say we're
in a better position than a lot of countries.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, we've got things that people want, So that's good,
isn't it? That food is something that people always want?
How difficult difficultly really will be that Obviously we're going
to ship things that are heavy all around the world
at the time when people are worried about that with
environmental issues and climate change and so on. So I
think we've got a big job in front of us
of ensuring that we're not dependent on commodities, as you
(08:48):
and I have talked before. But we've actually got food
products that is that there is. We do a lot
more to them before they lead leave the shores, so
we get more money for them, and that people become
very very to the fact that they want to have
a new Zealand product there. And I still don't think
that we're doing enough of that. I keep asking MPI,
for example, where is the food strategy that you told
(09:10):
us the country was going to have, While they say
it's on our website we'll go to the website and
convince yourself that's a food strategy. I think when we
still are too complacent about the fact that this is
a difficult product to have when you're a long way
from everywhere else, we need to refine it more, make
more money out of it, and really win people around
the world to saying they must have these products, because
(09:32):
that's our vulnerability, not that we don't have something great,
but that we are quite vulnerable because of things like
distance in our still heavy dependence on commodities. So there's
a lot of stuff to do. I think in terms
of a food strategy, get I'm much I'm very encouraged, Jamie.
As the last comment, if you travel around the country,
you see people who've got this message all over the place.
(09:53):
They're really getting stuck into doing something special with the
product they've got branding it, looking at niche markets around
the world. The problem is we don't have a New
Zealand system like that that supports them. So that's what
I think is a big challenge for food still.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Hey, Steve Mahari, thank you very much for your time
a labor politician making a lot of sense. Former Labor
Party politician I think you'd make a great panel with
Steve and Joyce. I might well start working on that one.
Thanks for your
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Time, Okay, thank you
Great to catch up with this man again, Steve Mahari.
Back in the day, Steve, I think you were number
three in the Labor cabinet, behind Helen Clark and Michael Cullen.
Some people, myself included, said you could have been a
prime minister and said instead of Jasinda Adrn, what would
have happened to New Zealand if that was the.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Case, Well, who knows, hypothetical. I think Jessinda always had
an agenda which probably most people the Labor Party would
have applauded if you look back where she was talking
about child poverty and trying to make the country more
friendly to electric vehicles and all sorts of things that
were good progressive causes. The problem they had, of course,
was delivery. And I hope that what would be one
(00:39):
thing about me would have been if I'd ever done that,
Who knows it would have been that we would have
been in a good position to have delivered, because, of course,
one of the problems that whole Labor term suffered from
was the nine years before it, where there were just
constant changes of leaders and not enough attention paid the policy,
so delivery therefore always going to be really hard. I'd
(01:03):
like to have thought that if there's been a better
run up to that time, just thind it would have
had a better platform and we're delivered on what she
was talking.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, but she was at the end of the day,
she was too left wing. Aren't we going back even
around the world to centrist politics?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think that there is a shift there. I think
we've talked just off here about the article by Stephen
Joyce suggesting that we're seeing a big shift in the world.
A be a bit cautious about that. These things that
are driving the right wing, like Trump and so on
around the world are still there. They haven't gone away.
I think it's what's happening is that people are starting
(01:39):
to wake up and that sort of centrist group who
are pretty laxadaisical about politics often just starting to wake
up to say, gee, if this carries on and you
end up with people like Trump. And so we've seen
the result in caund with sened in Singapore, with Senate
in Australia that people are starting to say no, no,
we better be careful about this. But I don't think
(02:00):
the fighters. There's just huge drivers for that kind of
politics to go. And I think the big thing that
we all should be doing is saying the center is
the place that a good government should be, whether it's
center right or center left. And if we want to
avoid the kinds of stuff that's happening in the US
which we ought to really avoid, then we really need
(02:20):
to do something about getting out voting and putting in
place people you care.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
About, Steve Maharri. And that's the exact reason why Chris
Sipkins is a dead man walking in my humble opinion,
not necessarily because of where he and the Labor Party sit,
but where has coalition partners sit. The Greens and to
Party Maori. For a lot of New Zealanders, they are
totally unelectable.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I couldn't agree more. I think the Marra Party, of course,
pits themselves as only for Mary, and only for a
particular section of Mary. Of course as well that they
are quite judgmental about who they feel fits that mold.
So that's a pretty difficult pill for the majority of
people to swallow. And I think the Green Party just
(03:03):
seemed to be unable to decide what they're on about.
They seem increasingly to want to represent a very small
part of the country as well, and that once again
doesn't help with trying to win a majority of people
to a platform that will change the country. So I
think Labor's got a problem with its potential partners at
the moment, and hopefully they're talking with them about the
fact that they need to shape up and start to
(03:25):
talk about things in a way which a majority of
people could accept.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Peter Dutton, let me get it right, got kicked to
touch in Australia over the weekend. He was described as
the Ossie Trump, as Winston Peter's the New Zealand Trump.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
He sort of as I think Winston has always been
a person who's understood that he needs about five percent
of the boat and we used to in the old
days referred to that as the pist off vote in
New Zealand, and that's not a big vote, but it
is about five percent or a little bit more, and
he knows that he placed it there, he gets some
and he gets back into Parliament. So I don't think
Winston's the kind of and they genuinely would be a Trump.
(04:02):
He's too much an old style National Party wet really
when it comes down to it, to allow that to happen.
But he knows that there are a number of people
now that listen to that kind of stuff and they
would be a good side percent and it's a good
ticket for them to get back into Parliament. I think
it's shameful they does it, but that's really.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, Stevenhurry. I reckon if an election was held tomorrow,
this is just my view again, and you'd know a
lot more about it than me. Winston and Shane Jones
would do a lot better than five percent.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I think on this ticket. There after that, certainly saying
James is because he's got a time in Parliament to come,
yet he willn't want to stay there and they could
well do that. You remember last time they started to
rock up towards ten percent and so on, they looked
like they were doing quite well. But I don't think
it'll either be a kind of trumpy and big vote
for them, and they don't think they would believe that
they'd get it. But they know that if they run
(04:52):
on all these things like the woke agenda that they're
now running on, they can get a good, good proportion
of vote and guarantee themselves return to Parliament's what they're after.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Steve Mahari with us, your old mate David Parker is
doing a valedictory speech this week and he'll fire a
few shots no doubt about a wealth tax or a
capital gains tax. I know it's well and truly back
on the table, but will people vote for it.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, I ought to work to something like this because
it's pretty clear that we don't have enough tax to
do the kinds of things and says they want to do,
like run a decent health system and so on. So
something has to change. And you'll notice that the National
Party also are talking about where when new revenue comes from,
whether it's a capital gains tax or whether it's a
wealth tax. I think one of the basic principles of
(05:37):
a fair tax system would be that we tax thing
that anything that gives you income. At the moment, we
rely far too heavily, of course, on just income tax,
and that's not something other countries do, and that's something
we seem to have pushed ourselves into a corner over.
So I hope what the pay does do is come
up with something sensible. I think a wealth tax, for example,
(05:59):
which perhaps has parked exclusively for health and education, that
people who paid it would know that their money was
going to causes that everybody wanted to see addressed. I
think probably they'd get away with it, but they need
to get past us arguing over it and settled out
and give people a good chance to absorb it. Otherwise
to be going into the election campaign where the policy
(06:19):
people are not used to and that's very difficult to
vote for.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
You've got a Gold card and a winter energy payment.
You don't need it. I don't need it. Surely they've
got to do something about the age of eligibility for
National Super and perhaps means testing, not National Super, because
I think it's a universal benefit that people have earned
over a lifetime of paying tax, but things like energy
payments they could be indexed to income.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I agree that. I'm great you said that Super
should be universal, because a minute you start doing that,
you're basically turning it into a benefit and you are
means testing it, which means they're fine whether the thresholders
the costs of almost amount of money. It means people
who don't get it will start to campaign on the
think that other people shouldn't get it, or just into nightmare.
I think it's one of the best systems in the
(07:09):
world to just say it's universal, and you don't get
all of it. If you're still earning lots of money,
then your super will be lower anyway, all those sorts
of safeguards. But I think the other add ons. You're right,
something like a community card would be a reasonable way
to say, if you've got that, then you get the
winter energy payment. If you don't, you don't because you're right,
(07:30):
I don't need it. You don't need it. But it
rolls through, and I think some sort of guardrails around
those sorts of things seems to me to be sensible,
but not super I think that would be silly should
the age go up. I think probably when you look
at people like you and me, we're still fully active,
you start to think, well, maybe in future generations, giving
people plenty of time to adjust it something like sixty
(07:52):
seven is not such a bad thing to do, given
them length of time people work in the age now here.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Hey, let's just finish a final comment on New Zealand
as a food producer, because you do a lot of
work in that area. How well positioned are we as
a nation at the moment, you know, with all the
uncertainty geo political tension, the Trump tariffs all that sort
of stuff. How well positioned do we stuck away at
the bottom of the South Pacific and just producing high
(08:18):
quality food to export around the world. I'd say we're
in a better position than a lot of countries.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, we've got things that people want, So that's good,
isn't it? That food is something that people always want?
How difficult difficultly really will be that Obviously we're going
to ship things that are heavy all around the world
at the time when people are worried about that with
environmental issues and climate change and so on. So I
think we've got a big job in front of us
of ensuring that we're not dependent on commodities, as you
(08:48):
and I have talked before. But we've actually got food
products that is that there is. We do a lot
more to them before they lead leave the shores, so
we get more money for them, and that people become
very very to the fact that they want to have
a new Zealand product there. And I still don't think
that we're doing enough of that. I keep asking MPI,
for example, where is the food strategy that you told
(09:10):
us the country was going to have, While they say
it's on our website we'll go to the website and
convince yourself that's a food strategy. I think when we
still are too complacent about the fact that this is
a difficult product to have when you're a long way
from everywhere else, we need to refine it more, make
more money out of it, and really win people around
the world to saying they must have these products, because
(09:32):
that's our vulnerability, not that we don't have something great,
but that we are quite vulnerable because of things like
distance in our still heavy dependence on commodities. So there's
a lot of stuff to do. I think in terms
of a food strategy, get I'm much I'm very encouraged, Jamie.
As the last comment, if you travel around the country,
you see people who've got this message all over the place.
(09:53):
They're really getting stuck into doing something special with the
product they've got branding it, looking at niche markets around
the world. The problem is we don't have a New
Zealand system like that that supports them. So that's what
I think is a big challenge for food still.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Hey, Steve Mahari, thank you very much for your time
a labor politician making a lot of sense. Former Labor
Party politician I think you'd make a great panel with
Steve and Joyce. I might well start working on that one.
Thanks for your
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Time, Okay, thank you
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!