July 6, 2025 • 9 mins
A former Labour Minister of Forestry has his say on carbon farming and offers a solution for transitioning unproductive hill country to pines and then to native regeneration (for carbon credits). We also discuss his rumoured candidacy for NZ First and whether he’s been shoulder-tapped by Winston.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Stuart Nash, former Minister of Forestry under the Ardern government,
knows a thing or two about forestry obviously, so let's
discuss that and whether he's going to stand for New
Zealand first and the next election. Stew I'll come back
to that one. Great to have you back on the wireless.
I know you love it being on the radio. Are
you really missing Parliament?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm not really. I'm missing a little bit of it.
But keeping in mind, no, foresty was a passion of
mine before I got into politics. I mean, I've got
a master's degree in forestry science, so I worked in
forestry in Japan, and I also worked for Fletcher challenging
Carter Hols, and I was in that kind of unique
position where I came into the portfolio with already a
significant knowledge of the industry. So you know, you can
really hit the ground running, you can develop ideas, you
(00:42):
can talk to people who know the industry really well,
and you can talk to them from a position of credibility.
Am I missing politics a little bit? I mean I'm
a little bit disenfranchised, well disappointed, I'll be honest with you.
With the two main parties at the moment, and I
don't think I'm you know, I'm on my own there.
If you look at polling, I think about you know,
they're combined, they get about sixty five percent, So about
(01:03):
thirty five percent The Kiwis are saying, we don't really
buy into the vision or lack thereof, of labor and
national So it's an interesting time in politics at the moment,
no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We'll come back to your candidacy for New Zealand. First,
I'm flying a kite test totally. Yeah, Okay, you're in
a really good position to talk about carbon forestry and
I think I heard you last week talking to Kerry
Wadham on News Talk ZB about this very same subject.
How badly have we got this wrong or have we
got it wrong?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, we have got it wrong at the moment. Now,
now let me view one example. Okay, So we often
hear about what happened during Gabrielle, and people forget before
cyclone Gabrielle up the East coast, there was also cyclone Hale,
and cyclone Hale struck in January. It created a whole
lot of havoc and Gabrielle just really finished it off.
But if you drive the naked Tapa Road. That is
(01:53):
some of the steepest stuff you know around that part
of the part of the island, and it is not
mature native, but it's certainly regenerating. So you know, it's
been under forest cover, let's say sixty eighty years. No
slips in there, whatso are? There was one, I think,
but very few slips in there at all during Hale Gabrielle,
(02:14):
and yet that copped some of the most serious rainfores
have had in this country for a long long time.
My point, mate, is there is a way to transition
uneconomic land from beer land that was once economic under
a different regime into forestry and save a hell of
a lot of our hillsides. Now it's how you get there,
And you know, I had a plan underway, It was
(02:34):
well underway, and I think it's still very very relevant.
I tried to talk to the new Minister of Forestry,
who I get on with, but he's also the Ministry
of Trade, so he's incredibly busy at this point in time.
But there is a way to transition from uneconomic farmland
into forestry that allows people to make money, but most
importantly it stabilizes our hillside and won't lead to some
(02:54):
form of ecological disaster an eighty years time.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So effectively, you plant some pine trees at a what
a lower rate and then let the knights regenerate after that.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You got it in one mate, though, So what you
don't do is you don't go to these steeps. No,
take a step back. So so Ministry of Forestry figured
there was about you know, the gasmap whole countries. I
figured there's about a million hectares of land in this
country that is beer and is completely uneconomic from a
farming perspective, and they reckon there's about another million hectares
(03:25):
of land which is highly marginal from a farming perspective,
again beer, that could be planted in forestry. So you know,
you you know my stance on this, Jamie. I do
not believe that we should be planting up our productive
land and pine trees. Now, I just want to I
want to put that out there because I think that's
a very bad use of our land. Now back to
your point, what some of these carbon farmers had been
(03:46):
doing is high stock radiator on land that will never
be harvested, either because a it's too far from a
port or a processing facility will be it's just too
steep and health and safety rules mean you're never going
to get a block in a chain or cutting down
trees from this really really steep land, or or you're
just not going to be allowed to because you know
(04:07):
the expectations of our communities. You don't put these huge,
big ballers up on this very, very steep land. So
what you do do is you low stock. You say
you can only claim carbon credits off radiator for let's
say thirty years, and low stocking means that you'll get
natives coming through, say thirty or forty, it doesn't really matter,
but put a time frame on it, so there's got
(04:28):
to be a transition. You hold back some of the
money that these people would get from their carbon credits
to make sure they're doing the right thing. And then
what you do is you have regenerating natives come through
and you can earn carbon credits off the natives. Now,
the reason I think it's important that you can earn
carbon credits off radiator for the first thirty years is
because this, for the first time ever, provides an economic
(04:51):
consentive to plant up land which is just unproductive from
a farming perspective.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It has merit yet the forestry people tell me, and
I had this debate with Peter Ware last week on
the show, former president of the forest Owners Association. They
don't want that the farmland way out the back of beyond.
They want flat to rolling stuff somewhere near report.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
No, well, I disagree with that. I mean that there's
got to be a certain percentage, right, I mean you've
got to allow. You've got to allow some of the land,
which is you know which you can get harvests and
you can get haulers and into But the bottom line
is is this wholesale planting of farmland is not a
(05:35):
good use. And actually when I was briefly the Minister
of Land Information and that's that, that's the minister that
controls Dervisy's investment office. This is during COVID when David
Clark went mountain biking and I changed the rules because
and I don't know if they were changed back. I
sort of lost interest when the portfolio was given back.
But I said, you didn't in any farm you bought
(05:58):
you could sell off. You could. You could say we're
going to sell off some of this farmland. This is
farm Sorry that we bought for foresture conversion, you can
sell off some of farmland, and we wanted to see
a full farm productivity report, which the wolves actually said
in the past. You know you've got a plant who well,
it made it very difficult to subdivide the land, the forest, sorry,
(06:19):
the farm once you bought it. But you know, any
farmer who's listening to this will know that on the
steep land, of course, there's going to be some flatter land.
That's just part and parcel of planting up. You know,
your gullies in your back country. But what I'm talking
about now is planting for carbon and planting for land stabilization,
(06:43):
planting for production. Again, I just do not think it
is the best use of our precious farmland to be
planned to get in trees for production.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Stuart Nash. Just before I let you go, rumors are
circulating that you're going to throw your hat in the
ring for New Zealand, and I think for what it's worth,
you and Shane Jones would be a great one two
punch combination.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well look, Shane's a really good made of mine. But
if the truth be no, and I'm being honest with
your listeners here, I haven't had to sit down with Winston.
Winston hasn't called me and said, Steward, love you on
the team. So there's been no discussions had between Winston
or any of his strategists or or other members about me.
Seems the New Zealand First, I mean, I will say
that I think at this point in time, New Zealand
(07:27):
First are coming out with a lot of with a
pragmatic approach to the issues that will be deivling this
country at the moment. As mentioned, I'm concerned about national
some of the stuff they're doing. I think Labor has
retreated and once again become an urban liberal party. There
are some very good MP's in there, but they don't
seem to stand for anything at the moment. To party
(07:48):
Mary skis the hell out of me, and I've been
open about that. I think the Greens have become the
Alliance party and drag I've written about this as well.
But as mentioned, if you look at all the political
part is important at the moment, New zeal First is
probably closest to my political alignment. But as mentioned, I've
had no conversations with Winston. Winston hasn't called me, so
(08:10):
you know, at this point in time, I'm Stuart na
s XMP.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, I'm doing a rugby club fundraiser and too pooky
next month with Shane Jones, and I'll tap him on
the shoulder and say, Stu Nash is keen to join
the team, and I'll cut the ticket on a commission.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, he may say, well, Stue Nash and I haven't
had that conversation. And and to be honest, I catch
up with Shane every now and again, and we're dealing
on an issue that is both of our hearts at
the moment. But what the conversations do not evolve around
is hey, Stue, here about you come and stand for
your zilmfare. So I haven't had that conversation with Shane.
I haven't had it with Winston. I haven't had it
with their chief of staff. But like I said, I
(08:50):
mean I got on really well with those guys. I
think they're good. The other thing also is I'm well
aware of mate that you know the Nash family name
is heavily associated with labor. You know, I was a
kep mister for five and a half years. I was
in the bear pit for a long time. It can
be brutal, It is long hours, often for very little reward.
And by that I mean you know, you lose touch
(09:11):
with your friends and your family come second. So getting
back into politics certainly has its has its downside being
there done that. But as mentioned, and I'd tell you
if it was otherwise, no one from zill and First
has approached me, And to be fair, I haven't given
wins in the call and say hey, can I come
and join you? So you know the rumors are out there.
(09:31):
Of course I've heard them, but I think it's mainly
because I have an immense amount of respect for Winston.
I think we're incredibly well served. He's our best, our
best Minister of Foreign Affairs for a long long time.
And ziem First is sort of resonating with the other parties.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Aren't watch the space Stuart Nash.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Thanks for your time, Jamie, much appreciate it.
Stuart Nash, former Minister of Forestry under the Ardern government,
knows a thing or two about forestry obviously, so let's
discuss that and whether he's going to stand for New
Zealand first and the next election. Stew I'll come back
to that one. Great to have you back on the wireless.
I know you love it being on the radio. Are
you really missing Parliament?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm not really. I'm missing a little bit of it.
But keeping in mind, no, foresty was a passion of
mine before I got into politics. I mean, I've got
a master's degree in forestry science, so I worked in
forestry in Japan, and I also worked for Fletcher challenging
Carter Hols, and I was in that kind of unique
position where I came into the portfolio with already a
significant knowledge of the industry. So you know, you can
really hit the ground running, you can develop ideas, you
(00:42):
can talk to people who know the industry really well,
and you can talk to them from a position of credibility.
Am I missing politics a little bit? I mean I'm
a little bit disenfranchised, well disappointed, I'll be honest with you.
With the two main parties at the moment, and I
don't think I'm you know, I'm on my own there.
If you look at polling, I think about you know,
they're combined, they get about sixty five percent, So about
(01:03):
thirty five percent The Kiwis are saying, we don't really
buy into the vision or lack thereof, of labor and
national So it's an interesting time in politics at the moment,
no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We'll come back to your candidacy for New Zealand. First,
I'm flying a kite test totally. Yeah, Okay, you're in
a really good position to talk about carbon forestry and
I think I heard you last week talking to Kerry
Wadham on News Talk ZB about this very same subject.
How badly have we got this wrong or have we
got it wrong?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, we have got it wrong at the moment. Now,
now let me view one example. Okay, So we often
hear about what happened during Gabrielle, and people forget before
cyclone Gabrielle up the East coast, there was also cyclone Hale,
and cyclone Hale struck in January. It created a whole
lot of havoc and Gabrielle just really finished it off.
But if you drive the naked Tapa Road. That is
(01:53):
some of the steepest stuff you know around that part
of the part of the island, and it is not
mature native, but it's certainly regenerating. So you know, it's
been under forest cover, let's say sixty eighty years. No
slips in there, whatso are? There was one, I think,
but very few slips in there at all during Hale Gabrielle,
(02:14):
and yet that copped some of the most serious rainfores
have had in this country for a long long time.
My point, mate, is there is a way to transition
uneconomic land from beer land that was once economic under
a different regime into forestry and save a hell of
a lot of our hillsides. Now it's how you get there,
And you know, I had a plan underway, It was
(02:34):
well underway, and I think it's still very very relevant.
I tried to talk to the new Minister of Forestry,
who I get on with, but he's also the Ministry
of Trade, so he's incredibly busy at this point in time.
But there is a way to transition from uneconomic farmland
into forestry that allows people to make money, but most
importantly it stabilizes our hillside and won't lead to some
(02:54):
form of ecological disaster an eighty years time.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So effectively, you plant some pine trees at a what
a lower rate and then let the knights regenerate after that.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You got it in one mate, though, So what you
don't do is you don't go to these steeps. No,
take a step back. So so Ministry of Forestry figured
there was about you know, the gasmap whole countries. I
figured there's about a million hectares of land in this
country that is beer and is completely uneconomic from a
farming perspective, and they reckon there's about another million hectares
(03:25):
of land which is highly marginal from a farming perspective,
again beer, that could be planted in forestry. So you know,
you you know my stance on this, Jamie. I do
not believe that we should be planting up our productive
land and pine trees. Now, I just want to I
want to put that out there because I think that's
a very bad use of our land. Now back to
your point, what some of these carbon farmers had been
(03:46):
doing is high stock radiator on land that will never
be harvested, either because a it's too far from a
port or a processing facility will be it's just too
steep and health and safety rules mean you're never going
to get a block in a chain or cutting down
trees from this really really steep land, or or you're
just not going to be allowed to because you know
(04:07):
the expectations of our communities. You don't put these huge,
big ballers up on this very, very steep land. So
what you do do is you low stock. You say
you can only claim carbon credits off radiator for let's
say thirty years, and low stocking means that you'll get
natives coming through, say thirty or forty, it doesn't really matter,
but put a time frame on it, so there's got
(04:28):
to be a transition. You hold back some of the
money that these people would get from their carbon credits
to make sure they're doing the right thing. And then
what you do is you have regenerating natives come through
and you can earn carbon credits off the natives. Now,
the reason I think it's important that you can earn
carbon credits off radiator for the first thirty years is
because this, for the first time ever, provides an economic
(04:51):
consentive to plant up land which is just unproductive from
a farming perspective.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It has merit yet the forestry people tell me, and
I had this debate with Peter Ware last week on
the show, former president of the forest Owners Association. They
don't want that the farmland way out the back of beyond.
They want flat to rolling stuff somewhere near report.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
No, well, I disagree with that. I mean that there's
got to be a certain percentage, right, I mean you've
got to allow. You've got to allow some of the land,
which is you know which you can get harvests and
you can get haulers and into But the bottom line
is is this wholesale planting of farmland is not a
(05:35):
good use. And actually when I was briefly the Minister
of Land Information and that's that, that's the minister that
controls Dervisy's investment office. This is during COVID when David
Clark went mountain biking and I changed the rules because
and I don't know if they were changed back. I
sort of lost interest when the portfolio was given back.
But I said, you didn't in any farm you bought
(05:58):
you could sell off. You could. You could say we're
going to sell off some of this farmland. This is
farm Sorry that we bought for foresture conversion, you can
sell off some of farmland, and we wanted to see
a full farm productivity report, which the wolves actually said
in the past. You know you've got a plant who well,
it made it very difficult to subdivide the land, the forest, sorry,
(06:19):
the farm once you bought it. But you know, any
farmer who's listening to this will know that on the
steep land, of course, there's going to be some flatter land.
That's just part and parcel of planting up. You know,
your gullies in your back country. But what I'm talking
about now is planting for carbon and planting for land stabilization,
(06:43):
planting for production. Again, I just do not think it
is the best use of our precious farmland to be
planned to get in trees for production.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Stuart Nash. Just before I let you go, rumors are
circulating that you're going to throw your hat in the
ring for New Zealand, and I think for what it's worth,
you and Shane Jones would be a great one two
punch combination.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well look, Shane's a really good made of mine. But
if the truth be no, and I'm being honest with
your listeners here, I haven't had to sit down with Winston.
Winston hasn't called me and said, Steward, love you on
the team. So there's been no discussions had between Winston
or any of his strategists or or other members about me.
Seems the New Zealand First, I mean, I will say
that I think at this point in time, New Zealand
(07:27):
First are coming out with a lot of with a
pragmatic approach to the issues that will be deivling this
country at the moment. As mentioned, I'm concerned about national
some of the stuff they're doing. I think Labor has
retreated and once again become an urban liberal party. There
are some very good MP's in there, but they don't
seem to stand for anything at the moment. To party
(07:48):
Mary skis the hell out of me, and I've been
open about that. I think the Greens have become the
Alliance party and drag I've written about this as well.
But as mentioned, if you look at all the political
part is important at the moment, New zeal First is
probably closest to my political alignment. But as mentioned, I've
had no conversations with Winston. Winston hasn't called me, so
(08:10):
you know, at this point in time, I'm Stuart na
s XMP.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, I'm doing a rugby club fundraiser and too pooky
next month with Shane Jones, and I'll tap him on
the shoulder and say, Stu Nash is keen to join
the team, and I'll cut the ticket on a commission.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, he may say, well, Stue Nash and I haven't
had that conversation. And and to be honest, I catch
up with Shane every now and again, and we're dealing
on an issue that is both of our hearts at
the moment. But what the conversations do not evolve around
is hey, Stue, here about you come and stand for
your zilmfare. So I haven't had that conversation with Shane.
I haven't had it with Winston. I haven't had it
with their chief of staff. But like I said, I
(08:50):
mean I got on really well with those guys. I
think they're good. The other thing also is I'm well
aware of mate that you know the Nash family name
is heavily associated with labor. You know, I was a
kep mister for five and a half years. I was
in the bear pit for a long time. It can
be brutal, It is long hours, often for very little reward.
And by that I mean you know, you lose touch
(09:11):
with your friends and your family come second. So getting
back into politics certainly has its has its downside being
there done that. But as mentioned, and I'd tell you
if it was otherwise, no one from zill and First
has approached me, And to be fair, I haven't given
wins in the call and say hey, can I come
and join you? So you know the rumors are out there.
(09:31):
Of course I've heard them, but I think it's mainly
because I have an immense amount of respect for Winston.
I think we're incredibly well served. He's our best, our
best Minister of Foreign Affairs for a long long time.
And ziem First is sort of resonating with the other parties.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Aren't watch the space Stuart Nash.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Thanks for your time, Jamie, much appreciate it.
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