September 7, 2025 • 8 mins
We talk to the former Minister of Forestry about his NZ First candidacy, carbon farming and whether we should ditch the Paris Agreement.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
But of a Hawk's Bay theme on the show that
I here's a man who's just happy to be the
list MP for Hawk's Bay or is he Stuart Nash Stewart,
have you or have you not declared your candidacy for
New Zealand first? And I want to talk to you
about carbon farming in Paris as well, but let's just
get that one out of the road, the elephant in
the room.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, Jamie Howe, and good afternoon to all your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Look, I spoke at the Zielm first conference, and people
who know me know that I was a labor MP
for twelve years in p for Nature and a Captain Minister.
But the thing is the thing I spoke about, and
I'd be inted to know what your listeners think about this, Jamie,
is that you know I'm labor to the core. I
really am. And when I say that, I'm talking about
the principles of the labor government set up by Michael,
Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and Wolf and Nash. This is about,
(00:43):
you know, working really hard for the working men and
women for a quality of opportunity, dignity and work, good
social infrastructure and all that sort of stuff that labor
used to stand for, and I don't know if it
does anymore, mate. That's the thing. And the only party
I see standing up and going really hard for the
working man and the working woman seems to be in
(01:03):
New Zealand's first You know, the politics of pragmatism of
Winston and Shane are resonating in the regions in a
way that no other politician or political party is at
the moment.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
We got a thousand yesterday in Palmi North. Is this
just sad grapes because Chippy kicked you to touch.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
No, I've got more things to do in my life
than that, mate. I mean, you know that was twenty
twenty three, twenty twenty five. Now I've moved on big time.
The thing is that there's always more to do. And
I doubt you meet a cabinet minister, sorry an ex
cabinet minister that doesn't tell you quietly or loudly that
there was always more. They never got everything they want
(01:38):
to get achieved done.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And I'm a little bit like that. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I look around and I see what needs to be done.
I know I've still got a role to play. Whether
I do that from sidelines, or whether I do it
as a member of parliament. Still it makes me seen.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
As I said to you last time we chatted, I
think you and Shane gallivanting around the country a one
two punch would be quite entertaining.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, we both have very simp philosophies. It's about just
getting stuff done. It's about empowering the regions. It's about
understanding the role that government has to play in economic development.
It's not leaving everything up to the market and hoping
it works. It's about ensuring that the settings are there
so workers and businesses that only survive, but they thrive.
So we have a very similar we have a very similar.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Approach to politics. You know, we're not afraid to call
things out when we.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
See them, you know, perhaps not as good as they
should be. And when you're not shackled by the change
of a big political party, you can actually say what
you think and you can call it out in a
way that New Zillanders go, yeah, I get what that
guy means. And so you know, we're very similar in
our outlock and very similar in our politics. And that's
just basically the politics of pragmatism.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Now as a pass in a past life, you were
the Minister for Forestry. Shane Jones was the billion tree man.
Did you two between the Perier cock it up? Did
you get the settings wrong?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Well let me tell you about carbon funny and I
am a fan of this.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, I am a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Fan of keeping radiator in the ETU. So let me
tell you why. So I formed the new Zone File
Service and the Fire Service said to me there's about
a million hectores of land that was cleared that is
just completely unproductive for any form of airable farming. And
there's about another million hectores of land which is which
(03:17):
is sort of marginal. Right, so you know you've heard
me talking this before, Jamie. There is no way that
radiator should be planted on our productive farm land.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
There is no way it should be. But nor is
there a way we should.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Just blanket plant radiator in these areas because that'll end
up to that'll end up being an ecological disaster. You've
got to plant it in a way that allows natives
to come through, so you limit the amount of time
you can get carbon credits of radiator. And you've got
to have a transition regime and a very clear regime
from radiator to native.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It's doable. I put the policy in place.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Unfortunately doesn't seem like Todd's run with that, but that's
one of the things I'd love to get back to.
But the reason I like this made is for the
first time ever there was an economic incentive to plant
radia or to plant up yeah, either highly marginal or
unproductive farmland. And I think that encouraged a lot of
people to plant in areas that were prone to slipping
(04:10):
in erosion.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But we have got the settings wrong, and you realize that,
we all realize that when we're getting good pastoral or
arable land blanket planted into pine trees. I don't think
the government's new regulations or settings have gone hard enough
or early enough as just Sinder, your old boss would say.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, look, it's one of these really tricky things. And
I'm in two minds on this. I mean, look, I'm
living Hooks Bay. Right When I was a first in
the MP, there was a family called the old Worthy family,
reasonably well known name, and they were think I think
the guy was based in London and they were buying
farms up up Wira away and planting out the really
productive river flats and the farmer came to me and said,
(04:49):
you know, I offered to buy these for good money,
and the guy said, no, n it's all and Radiator.
That is terrible. You know, no one likes to see that.
It's a really bad use of land, and especially when
guy next door wants to buy them as well. The
thing is is that how far does the government go.
Now You'll have a lot of listeners that say, there's
no way I want the government telling me what.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I should be doing with my land.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
But then you've got other listeners will go, well, the
government needs to step in and say you cannot plant
your farm in forestland. So you know, half the people
say government should get out of the way and let
me do with my land. But sometimes those are the
same people. Let's say, yeah, but you can't plant you know,
good productive land and tree. So it's a balancing. You've
got to get it right. We've got to protect our
(05:32):
fertile land, we've got to protect our productive land.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
But there is a.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Place for Radiator. It's right tree, right place. And I
think everyone who's listening to this, whether you're a green,
new or farmer, whatever end of the political spectrum, you're on.
We will all agree that radiator on good productive land
is not the right place for trees.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Food producing land should be growing food. Let's just finish
on Paris. Interestingly, Winston, I've had this position for quite
a while. They on us out. David Seymour's gone that
way now, so effectively, effectively you've got two of the
three coalition partners saying we want out of Paris. How
much heat is this going to put on luckson.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It's going to got quite a lot of heat on
luction keeping in minded and that's pulled the farmers out
of Paris anyway. I mean my understanding is where we're
looking like meeting our first obligation under Paris. Look, it's
a very very it's a very difficult issue. First of all,
you would say New Zealanders always stood up for something right.
We're you know, we try and get a premium and
global markets because there's a perception that, you know, our
(06:35):
butter comes from cows frolicking underneath the you know, the
beautiful Mount Taranaki and all grass fed and the sort
of caroen So there's an image perception here. We've got
to make sure that we do the right thing. I
always had massive concerns about us pouring literally billions of
dollars into some scheme that we had no idea where
(06:56):
the money went. And you know, when we're short of
classrooms and cops and nurses and teachers and doctors, and
you're saying we're going to pay five billion dollars because
we aren't meeting our obligations into some sort of climate fund.
I think that is a very very difficult political cell.
Having said that, you know, I would be very open
if our first protocoll was to see if we can
(07:18):
renegotiate that. And I think there's a lot of countries
around the world who are saying, you know, we've got
big issues ourselves internally domestically, same issue as I mentioned,
we can't afford to pay billions of dollars into some
climate fund where we don't know where the money's going.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Interesting time. It's going to be an interesting next twelve months,
especially with you watch the space.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It's going to be an interesting time, mate. But the
bottom line is that labor isn't resonating, National isn't resonating.
But New Zealand first and Winston and Shane are really
sort of capturing the imagination have had working keys out
there that might have once upon a time voted for
the main political parties, but they're now looking at them
going well share as I don't know if this is
the same part that my father and my grandfather used
(07:58):
to talk about. Thanks Beaton, Thanks Jamie, much appreciated.
But of a Hawk's Bay theme on the show that
I here's a man who's just happy to be the
list MP for Hawk's Bay or is he Stuart Nash Stewart,
have you or have you not declared your candidacy for
New Zealand first? And I want to talk to you
about carbon farming in Paris as well, but let's just
get that one out of the road, the elephant in
the room.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, Jamie Howe, and good afternoon to all your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Look, I spoke at the Zielm first conference, and people
who know me know that I was a labor MP
for twelve years in p for Nature and a Captain Minister.
But the thing is the thing I spoke about, and
I'd be inted to know what your listeners think about this, Jamie,
is that you know I'm labor to the core. I
really am. And when I say that, I'm talking about
the principles of the labor government set up by Michael,
Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and Wolf and Nash. This is about,
(00:43):
you know, working really hard for the working men and
women for a quality of opportunity, dignity and work, good
social infrastructure and all that sort of stuff that labor
used to stand for, and I don't know if it
does anymore, mate. That's the thing. And the only party
I see standing up and going really hard for the
working man and the working woman seems to be in
(01:03):
New Zealand's first You know, the politics of pragmatism of
Winston and Shane are resonating in the regions in a
way that no other politician or political party is at
the moment.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
We got a thousand yesterday in Palmi North. Is this
just sad grapes because Chippy kicked you to touch.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
No, I've got more things to do in my life
than that, mate. I mean, you know that was twenty
twenty three, twenty twenty five. Now I've moved on big time.
The thing is that there's always more to do. And
I doubt you meet a cabinet minister, sorry an ex
cabinet minister that doesn't tell you quietly or loudly that
there was always more. They never got everything they want
(01:38):
to get achieved done.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And I'm a little bit like that. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I look around and I see what needs to be done.
I know I've still got a role to play. Whether
I do that from sidelines, or whether I do it
as a member of parliament. Still it makes me seen.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
As I said to you last time we chatted, I
think you and Shane gallivanting around the country a one
two punch would be quite entertaining.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, we both have very simp philosophies. It's about just
getting stuff done. It's about empowering the regions. It's about
understanding the role that government has to play in economic development.
It's not leaving everything up to the market and hoping
it works. It's about ensuring that the settings are there
so workers and businesses that only survive, but they thrive.
So we have a very similar we have a very similar.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Approach to politics. You know, we're not afraid to call
things out when we.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
See them, you know, perhaps not as good as they
should be. And when you're not shackled by the change
of a big political party, you can actually say what
you think and you can call it out in a
way that New Zillanders go, yeah, I get what that
guy means. And so you know, we're very similar in
our outlock and very similar in our politics. And that's
just basically the politics of pragmatism.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Now as a pass in a past life, you were
the Minister for Forestry. Shane Jones was the billion tree man.
Did you two between the Perier cock it up? Did
you get the settings wrong?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Well let me tell you about carbon funny and I
am a fan of this.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, I am a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Fan of keeping radiator in the ETU. So let me
tell you why. So I formed the new Zone File
Service and the Fire Service said to me there's about
a million hectores of land that was cleared that is
just completely unproductive for any form of airable farming. And
there's about another million hectores of land which is which
(03:17):
is sort of marginal. Right, so you know you've heard
me talking this before, Jamie. There is no way that
radiator should be planted on our productive farm land.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
There is no way it should be. But nor is
there a way we should.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Just blanket plant radiator in these areas because that'll end
up to that'll end up being an ecological disaster. You've
got to plant it in a way that allows natives
to come through, so you limit the amount of time
you can get carbon credits of radiator. And you've got
to have a transition regime and a very clear regime
from radiator to native.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It's doable. I put the policy in place.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Unfortunately doesn't seem like Todd's run with that, but that's
one of the things I'd love to get back to.
But the reason I like this made is for the
first time ever there was an economic incentive to plant
radia or to plant up yeah, either highly marginal or
unproductive farmland. And I think that encouraged a lot of
people to plant in areas that were prone to slipping
(04:10):
in erosion.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But we have got the settings wrong, and you realize that,
we all realize that when we're getting good pastoral or
arable land blanket planted into pine trees. I don't think
the government's new regulations or settings have gone hard enough
or early enough as just Sinder, your old boss would say.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, look, it's one of these really tricky things. And
I'm in two minds on this. I mean, look, I'm
living Hooks Bay. Right When I was a first in
the MP, there was a family called the old Worthy family,
reasonably well known name, and they were think I think
the guy was based in London and they were buying
farms up up Wira away and planting out the really
productive river flats and the farmer came to me and said,
(04:49):
you know, I offered to buy these for good money,
and the guy said, no, n it's all and Radiator.
That is terrible. You know, no one likes to see that.
It's a really bad use of land, and especially when
guy next door wants to buy them as well. The
thing is is that how far does the government go.
Now You'll have a lot of listeners that say, there's
no way I want the government telling me what.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I should be doing with my land.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
But then you've got other listeners will go, well, the
government needs to step in and say you cannot plant
your farm in forestland. So you know, half the people
say government should get out of the way and let
me do with my land. But sometimes those are the
same people. Let's say, yeah, but you can't plant you know,
good productive land and tree. So it's a balancing. You've
got to get it right. We've got to protect our
(05:32):
fertile land, we've got to protect our productive land.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
But there is a.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Place for Radiator. It's right tree, right place. And I
think everyone who's listening to this, whether you're a green,
new or farmer, whatever end of the political spectrum, you're on.
We will all agree that radiator on good productive land
is not the right place for trees.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Food producing land should be growing food. Let's just finish
on Paris. Interestingly, Winston, I've had this position for quite
a while. They on us out. David Seymour's gone that
way now, so effectively, effectively you've got two of the
three coalition partners saying we want out of Paris. How
much heat is this going to put on luckson.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It's going to got quite a lot of heat on
luction keeping in minded and that's pulled the farmers out
of Paris anyway. I mean my understanding is where we're
looking like meeting our first obligation under Paris. Look, it's
a very very it's a very difficult issue. First of all,
you would say New Zealanders always stood up for something right.
We're you know, we try and get a premium and
global markets because there's a perception that, you know, our
(06:35):
butter comes from cows frolicking underneath the you know, the
beautiful Mount Taranaki and all grass fed and the sort
of caroen So there's an image perception here. We've got
to make sure that we do the right thing. I
always had massive concerns about us pouring literally billions of
dollars into some scheme that we had no idea where
(06:56):
the money went. And you know, when we're short of
classrooms and cops and nurses and teachers and doctors, and
you're saying we're going to pay five billion dollars because
we aren't meeting our obligations into some sort of climate fund.
I think that is a very very difficult political cell.
Having said that, you know, I would be very open
if our first protocoll was to see if we can
(07:18):
renegotiate that. And I think there's a lot of countries
around the world who are saying, you know, we've got
big issues ourselves internally domestically, same issue as I mentioned,
we can't afford to pay billions of dollars into some
climate fund where we don't know where the money's going.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Interesting time. It's going to be an interesting next twelve months,
especially with you watch the space.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It's going to be an interesting time, mate. But the
bottom line is that labor isn't resonating, National isn't resonating.
But New Zealand first and Winston and Shane are really
sort of capturing the imagination have had working keys out
there that might have once upon a time voted for
the main political parties, but they're now looking at them
going well share as I don't know if this is
the same part that my father and my grandfather used
(07:58):
to talk about. Thanks Beaton, Thanks Jamie, much appreciated.
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